Where has the fun gone?

Ok this might seem like im a sore loser or just plain whinging, But i just want to know where the fun has gone in the Football Manager Series? I can honestly say i have not enjoyed this game since the era of 2006? Im all for making a game detailed and not a walk over so i do everything within a week and discard the game, But since the release of say FM08, I have sat up many a nights with nothing but frustration as i cant seem to get to grips with the tactical side of the game, I feel to enjoy this game as i have done in previous versions i would have to spend atleast a month or 2 reading posts of insights into tatics that may or may not work, When in fact all i want to do is play a game and have fun and a laugh, I dont want to be downloading tactics or reading page after page of peoples insights into the Match enguine or the AI Tactics, I want to beable to do as i did in previous games create something on my own without coming online to find something that makes my team play better without any of my input as i just feel no self satisfaction, And as stated before i dont want to be spending hours days weeks months trying to create tactics i want to have fun. Now you can say all i want is a easy game, But i dont buy games to get frustrated and annoyed i buy them to relax and have fun and i honestly dont see the fun in this game anymore. And yes i know this post probably makes no sense other than just a rant but i had to vent or i can see the misses giving me the red card lol

i can see where you are coming from, but sometimes you still get good games going without being too tactical. As a general rule, i play 4-4-2, adjust the "team instruction" sliders at the start of the season and dont touch them again. At home to the worst team or away to the best, my side is set out the same, although sometimes i play different players. I dont even bother changing to go more defensive etc when ahead

Generally, my games are failures as a result but, what i do, is simply start a new game every time the one i am playing is annoying me. Eventually i seem to find a side that i do quite well with despite my lack of tactics and, when it happens, it is just as fun as the old FM games and doesnt take too long to play

FM is still more fun than reading walls of text.

Perhaps you're trying too hard to make your tactics work. Often it is the simplest formation that gets results.

Read the guides in the tactics forum and go from there. You won't be scanning post after post, or downloading tactics. It's not a lot of work because that is what I did. I guess it depends on your patience.

This is the guide I read through...well scanned. It is bloody good.

The one part of the tactical game for FM09 that I think is key is the mentalities. That article is damn good for getting them right.

Go for it...that's maybe an hour or two's reading.

I struggled when I first played FM09. I couldn't get a tactic to work and I was getting seriously frustrated with being told there were gaps between my defence and midfield, and my midflied and attacking line. I can't remember where it was, but somewhere I was directed to wwfan's guide. I followed his outlines on mentality and basic formation and then began to tweak a few things for my chosen side. Been there two years and I just won my first ever national title in nearly 10 years of FM/CM.

You're getting frustrated and you just need to sit back and relax.

See my problem is i want to beable to have some success, I remember taking Gateshead to the prem in previous versions, But now i cant even get a Reading team that i have spent millions on the even win the Championship and To be honest im getting rather annoyed at starting a new game every other day because im too annoyed with the previous one, I read about people playing for 20 seasons and would love to do that but the frustration is just too much to comtemplate, I really think the game has gone way overboard on the tactics its too much to just have fun.

Perhaps you're trying too hard to make your tactics work. Often it is the simplest formation that gets results.

Read the guides in the tactics forum and go from there. You won't be scanning post after post, or downloading tactics. It's not a lot of work because that is what I did. I guess it depends on your patience.

This is the guide I read through...well scanned. It is bloody good.

The one part of the tactical game for FM09 that I think is key is the mentalities. That article is damn good for getting them right.

Go for it...that's maybe an hour or two's reading.

I struggled when I first played FM09. I couldn't get a tactic to work and I was getting seriously frustrated with being told there were gaps between my defence and midfield, and my midflied and attacking line. I can't remember where it was, but somewhere I was directed to wwfan's guide. I followed his outlines on mentality and basic formation and then began to tweak a few things for my chosen side. Been there two years and I just won my first ever national title in nearly 10 years of FM/CM.

You're getting frustrated and you just need to sit back and relax.

But you see this is what im annoyed with, I dont want to have to read for 2 hours to maybe enjoy a game, I want to beable to put it on and learn for myself, I have read numerous articles in the tactics forum and some of the stuff they have written is amazing to go the in depth about a game, But i just want the simplicity of the game back where i could enjoy it by myself and not have to come online to read about it.

FM is still more fun than reading walls of text.

The only bit of fun i get out of it at the moment is buying players, And them selling them at the end of the season for stupid amounts of money and buying better ones, But even this doesnt make up for the frustration caused by a overload of tactics.

Roady99

I agree with you, a game should not require hours of forum reading to be playable.

This is probably no more a game for you (and me). You need a lot of time and patience because having the strongest players and a decent tactic is not enough. Let's wait for the next patch (remember fm2008 was very bad before the final patch)!

I just wrote something very similar to your thoughts about 10 mins ago on another thread...and I agree full heartedly! my thoughts follow.....................

I think 95/96 was when i started playing CM...or 96/97...and yes I think it had a lot more appeal to it back then. I have bought every version of Champ manager since then up to the first Football manager when i thought the last version of Champ manager wasn't holding my addiction as much so I left the game for a while. I came back on the second football manager release and found it okay. The last one I have found okay. This latest I have bought and played one season, getting promoted from scottish 3rd division to the 2nd and have lost interest already. I havent played at all for about a month or so now and haven't missed it a bit or felt those cravings to play that i used to. That desire to build a team and feel familiar with all your players, tactics etc. Building youth teams who go on to star for your first team...it is just far too much hassle now. The tactics are far too in depth for the casual gamer because these days I have to work for a living and dont wanna spend 2 hours working out what tactics work and what dont. I feel bored as hell when i play it now. Even a 3d match engine does nothing for me. Just a "fifa" type cosmetic lift to a money making machine...which is fine all businesses have to make a profit. But come on of all the changes you could have made for this release, removal of arrows going sidewards and diagonally...addition of decimal points in player ratings...

Looks to me that ideas are running thin and there is no more atmosphere in the game anymore. It has actually become a glorified spreadsheet and database where. People may say the tactics now are more realistic than ever before but how you can implement tactics with a slider bar is beyond me...put any worldclass computer literate manager in the hotseat for a game of this and I'll bet he wont have a clue how to implement his own preferred tactics in a match winning formula!

Sorry to say, but I do feel better in doing so, my long love affair with CM/FM has finally come to an end. Dont get me wrong I'm not bashing any developers for ruining a great, fun, addictive game, you cant always get it right for everybody. Its just a simple case of, this isn't for me anymore. And I know I'm not the only one (PCGamer 60 something %)but I also know some people do enjoy the later incarnations so there you go. I just think the latest FM is one step too far into a game of mundane statistics that bores the hell outta me!

Roady99

I agree with you, a game should not require hours of forum reading to be playable.

This is probably no more a game for you (and me). You need a lot of time and patience because having the strongest players and a decent tactic is not enough. Let's wait for the next patch (remember fm2008 was very bad before the final patch)!

To be honest i didnt even enjoy 08 due to the same reasons, Admittadly this is a amazing game, But i do feel Si Games have gone way over the top on tactics i sometimes feel not even Sir Alex could even implement his tactics in this, Im all up for challenges in a game but this is not a challenge when the odds are 70-30 in favour of the AI, And yes i find it very downputting to be beating by artificial intelligence lol

Ranters may get much more respect if they allow us to be able to actually read all that writing.

Ranters may get much more respect if they allow us to be able to actually read all that writing.

Im not looking for people to bash me or turn this into a slagging match, Im just venting my opinion on the game.

Also i would like to add im not that great at english never have been as i have no understanding of paragraphs

To be honest i didnt even enjoy 08 due to the same reasons,

You are right but fm2008 is a game for babies compared to fm2009.

I agree - where is the fun?

Last week I decided to start a new game - I spent 20 hours on one season finishing 2nd with a "middle" club in Denmark. After that I spent 2-3 hours in pre-season making a new tactic and buying players. In my first match in the second season I lost 1-5 to a bottom half team. I was shocked because my tactic was doing well in my friendlies. In the following two matches I got some good results, but I saw that my tactic didn't work (match stats).

Since that I haven't played the game. The fun was simply sucked out of me!

I am frustrated because I don't know what to do. Spending hours of reading tips and tricks and then making my own tactic - and in the end not knowing what to change !! Should my mentality-slider be 1 notch to the left...or to the right? How the hell can I tell? I'm just an average tactician and I simply don't know if that's enough...

i know what you mean

sometimes it feels like its just a case of working out how to beat the match engine rather than imposing your own tactics on a realistic football world

I agree with your general points. Unlike a lot of people on here I don't have hours to sit around reading about tactics for a game... I'd argue the fun factor left around CM03/04/FM05... if SI continues to go this way then it's best to insert difficulty settings so those of us with lives/jobs don't have to trawl the net for hours to get a team playing well.

FWIW, I'm doing really well in my current game, but I still feel frustrated with it.

You are right but fm2008 is a game for babies compared to fm2009.

If it was for babies those babies had much more tactical knowledge than me lol.

I am frustrated because I don't know what to do. Spending hours of reading tips and tricks and then making my own tactic - and in the end not knowing what to change !! Should my mentality-slider be 1 notch to the left...or to the right? How the hell can I tell? I'm just an average tactician and I simply don't know if that's enough...

This is the point! The game does not give you enough instruments to learn from your faults. So the game is not complete.

Also i would like to add im not that great at english never have been as i have no understanding of paragraphs

That's fair enough, but at least break your long posts up a bit so they're more pleasant to read.

Noone likes to read massive blocks of writing...that also includes 20000 word essays on how to understand and implement 20 point slider bars into match tactics...

I recently heard Harry Redknapps Tottenham revival is largely due to his time playing Football Manager. His teamtalks went a bit like this..."okay guys we're going 6 for defensive line, 9 for width wingers I want you 14 for mentality but only 5 for closing down...target man i want you holding up the ball, 10 for mentality..." and so on!

Now tell me we're not mad for thinking the whole numbers game has gone a bit too far!

You dont need 20 different points for a players mentality, width, closing down, defensive line etc etc etc etc etc etc. People think the tactics are more realistic...I think they have gone to realistic, driven past at a hundred miles an hour and fallen off a cliff!

I agree with your general points. Unlike a lot of people on here I don't have hours to sit around reading about tactics for a game... I'd argue the fun factor left around CM03/04/FM05... if SI continues to go this way then it's best to insert difficulty settings so those of us with lives/jobs don't have to trawl the net for hours to get a team playing well.

FWIW, I'm doing really well in my current game, but I still feel frustrated with it.

I loved the game for a season, Then my team went into meltdown and lost 7 games on the trot that is now deleted lol

If it was for babies those babies had much more tactical knowledge than me lol.

No offense. I'm not any good on the tactical side but managed to win something in fm2008 with weak teams. Now in fm2009 there's no way for me to win something...

I think that you have, as they say, "hit the nail on the head", for some of us.

I too, find that despite the 3d which I really like and the tweaks, the game lacks something. It could be, that since I have played all the cm/fm iterations I am the one suffering complacency and hence the lack of that gripping excitement I used to get and the shouts from the wife telling me she's had enough of that bl**dy spreadsheet game!!

I do think though that this is the best of the footie versions, even if I have stopped playing at the moment. I use one of the WWFAN tractics 442 and tweak it, it seems to do the job, in that the last game I had I was managing NUFC and they were doing really well. Also because in RL NUFC have gone the way of the pharoahs it has taken the enjoyment out of playing footie sims (psychological but it actually does affect me wanting to play).

Enough jabbering, good thread in that it stimulates debate and I share your pain.

:)K

But you see this is what im annoyed with, I dont want to have to read for 2 hours to maybe enjoy a game, I want to beable to put it on and learn for myself, I have read numerous articles in the tactics forum and some of the stuff they have written is amazing to go the in depth about a game, But i just want the simplicity of the game back where i could enjoy it by myself and not have to come online to read about it.

I could well be exaggerating a little with quoting '2 hours', but I honestly can't recall how long I stared at that guide. If I'm honest with you, however long it was it was worth it for the enjoyment I am getting from FM09 of late.

The game can be as simplistic as you like, but, and I am referring to your previous post here, you may be causing yourself no end of problems by buying huge amounts of players. You said you have spent millions on a Reading team, but did that Reading team need millions spent on it? If you are buying players in the hopes of improving an already solid team then I think that is where you are going wrong. You're breaking up a strong team-spirit and lowering morale. That leads to inconsistencies in my opinion.

Start off slowly, rather than assuming you must win everything in season one. Personally, I think you have to get to know your team before you can improve them.

Finally, I'll comment on the number of people suggesting that FM has gone into too much depth regarding tactics. Well sorry, but FM has always been the game that focuses on realism. The thing that separates FM from FIFA and other management sims is the fact that it is deep and absorbing.

Does anyone think that Alex Ferguson could be a tactical novice and lead Manchester United to the success he has lead them to? He probably sits in an office for ages studying formations and watching videos.

Want to be immersed in a realistic world of football management? Yes? Well you have to take the rough with the smooth.

Think it's too demanding? Well, look over there...it's FIFA manager, with lovely pictures.

Sorry, I don't want to push you away, but FM is realistic and challenging. In my opinion that is what stands it out from the rest.

Good points anagain - i think that some of us just get tired and need a rest and also we know that we have this furum so that you guys can tell us to keep on the righteous path of fm....fifa2009..tut...tut

k

Why compare it to Fifa manager...noone else is. We all know Fifa manager is crap! And its a no brainer that Fm is better than fifa manager. This is not a basis of saying this is a great game however! Because believe it or not, games are rated on their own merit. Not on the lack of merit in other games!

And as for your comment on Alex Ferguson, i refer you to my Harry redknapp quote! Its nonsense to say that this is immersed with realistic world football management! I dont know one football manager who shows his team how to play with a 20 point slider scale! Okay I dont know a single professional manager, but still calm down a bit eh!

I could well be exaggerating a little with quoting '2 hours', but I honestly can't recall how long I stared at that guide. If I'm honest with you, however long it was it was worth it for the enjoyment I am getting from FM09 of late.

The game can be as simplistic as you like, but, and I am referring to your previous post here, you may be causing yourself no end of problems by buying huge amounts of players. You said you have spent millions on a Reading team, but did that Reading team need millions spent on it? If you are buying players in the hopes of improving an already solid team then I think that is where you are going wrong. You're breaking up a strong team-spirit and lowering morale. That leads to inconsistencies in my opinion.

Start off slowly, rather than assuming you must win everything in season one. Personally, I think you have to get to know your team before you can improve them.

Finally, I'll comment on the number of people suggesting that FM has gone into too much depth regarding tactics. Well sorry, but FM has always been the game that focuses on realism. The thing that separates FM from FIFA and other management sims is the fact that it is deep and absorbing.

Does anyone think that Alex Ferguson could be a tactical novice and lead Manchester United to the success he has lead them to? He probably sits in an office for ages studying formations and watching videos.

Want to be immersed in a realistic world of football management? Yes? Well you have to take the rough with the smooth.

Think it's too demanding? Well, look over there...it's FIFA manager, with lovely pictures.

Sorry, I don't want to push you away, but FM is realistic and challenging. In my opinion that is what stands it out from the rest.

Ok regarding the tactics maybe my point is a bit off, But before fm08 i had never come online to find tactics or anything of the sort to help me play my game and enjoy it, My point is the tactics are so in depth now im having to come online read post after post just to find something that i feel may help and of recent never does.

As for the buying players, Millions yes but only on 2 or 3 players at the most and i keep most of the squad intact unless i find them to be of no use to the team so i doubt that would cause any moral problems.

As i have stated on many occasions i want to beable to enjoy a game without the NEED to do anything but put the game in the drive and play with my own input. This is simply not the case for me anymore as even you have stated you needed to read other peoples theorys on this forum to get your enjoyment.

Why should i have to do this to enjoy a game? What would i do if i didnt have a internet connection (Apart from not being able to whinge on here ).

The slider system is not intuitive and the alterations that you make to settings are not reflected in what you see on the pitch, in part because the behaviour of players, especially defenders, is unrealistic. Scores may end up being reasonably credible, but the matches aren't.

When this is coupled with the annoying glitches such as excessive one on ones and low conversion rates of such chances in order to keep the scores 'realistic', the AMC rating problem, players standing still and allowing the ball to be taken from them, the over frequent '15 shots to their one and they win 1-0 in the 93rd minute' scenarios, the fact that I can set my team to defend deep and counter attack and they swarm around the opposition penalty area and get caught on the break..... I could go on.

It's the problems with an unrealistic and unresponsive ME which make the game not as much fun as it should be. Like the OP, I'm looking for fun in a game not a continual struggle against its inadequacies.

Hope the new CM is better.

Why compare it to Fifa manager...noone else is. We all know Fifa manager is crap! And its a no brainer that Fm is better than fifa manager. This is not a basis of saying this is a great game however! Because believe it or not, games are rated on their own merit. Not on the lack of merit in other games!

And as for your comment on Alex Ferguson, i refer you to my Harry redknapp quote! Its nonsense to say that this is immersed with realistic world football management! I dont know one football manager who shows his team how to play with a 20 point slider scale! Okay I dont know a single professional manager, but still calm down a bit eh!

The 20 point slider scale is a representation used in the game. Of course Harry and Alex don't use a slider scale, but FM has to have a method to convey the player's chosen tactics. The slider system is just the current method.

I'm also not getting at anyone. My points about FIFA manager were just to convey my thoughts that FM is a game that is designed to be deep, immersive and...if you like...tactical.

Maybe I sound overly critical of Roady99, but I'd like to see him enjoy the game, because I enjoy it and I think SI have done a good job. I'm exploring thoughts. Maybe I'll hit the nail on the head and Roady will realise where his problems lie.

...FM is a game that is designed to be deep, immersive and...if you like...tactical.

Maybe I sound overly critical of Roady99, but I'd like to see him enjoy the game, because I enjoy it and I think SI have done a good job. I'm exploring thoughts. Maybe I'll hit the nail on the head and Roady will realise where his problems lie.

I think the problems lie with the game rather than with Roady99. SI needs a complete rethink of the ME and the tactical system. What we have now is a disappointment to many.

I'm having more fun than I have had in years. But back when I was addicted to the old CM's I was young and naive and was happy with anything, even crappy Ultimate Soccer manager. These days it's harder to please us because we are spoiled and expect so much

I think the problems lie with the game rather than with Roady99. SI needs a complete rethink of the ME and the tactical system. What we have now is a disappointment to many.

I won't agree with your quote of 'many'. The truth is that 'many' are sitting in front of their computers enjoying the game. They feel no need to come on here and complain about the tactics system.

I run such a slow game that I'd drift off to sleep if I didn't come on here and join in the conversational fun. If my game was faster I might not be here; I'd be one of the 'many' enjoying the game. Not that I'm not enjoying it.

Oh, and it's not not fast because of shoddy designing. It's not not fast because I run half the playable leagues.

Defensive mentality, normal, attacking...3 different mentalities, not 20 different ways to implement them!

Defensive line - Deep, normal, push up...3 different lines to take...okay maybe you could make about 5 different lines for a bit more depth...

Closing down - stand off, use your intiative, jump in to everything! Again not 20 different points

Width - narrow, normal, wide.

Is this simply to easy? Is it so obvious it cant be right? Sometimes the obvious choice is the right one. The game has simply become over-complicated

Defensive mentality, normal, attacking...3 different mentalities, not 20 different ways to implement them!

Defensive line - Deep, normal, push up...3 different lines to take...okay maybe you could make about 5 different lines for a bit more depth...

Closing down - stand off, use your intiative, jump in to everything! Again not 20 different points

Width - narrow, normal, wide.

Is this simply to easy? Is it so obvious it cant be right? Sometimes the obvious choice is the right one. The game has simply become over-complicated

Maybe, but have 3 to 5 points on the sliders (you'd still have to have some sort of sliding scale) and people will complain that there is not enough depth.

Telling a player to be defensive, push up or attack all-out doesn't cut it for me. I've never had a problem with the sliding scale.

I think the problems lie with the game rather than with Roady99. SI needs a complete rethink of the ME and the tactical system. What we have now is a disappointment to many.

Dont get me wrong im not going to complain about gliches this and that i think the game as a whole has amazing detail and it is a great footballing game, I just think Si have concentrated on the detail so much they may have forgot about us simple people that just want a fun game to play, To be honest i couldnt care less about team talks, press confrences, training or even the 3d match engine. I just want the old fm back the fun fm :o)

Many may well be enjoying the game but many are not as-well and to criticise people for voicing their opinions because you dont agree with them is wrong. Lets look at this thread as a basis...You'll find the majority of this thread, people are unhappy with the way the game is. You cant just write that off. These forums live on people looking for how to succeed in the tactics. Its too complicated. Its not fun anymore. We are not here to complain for the sake of complaining, we complain because we have loved this game for so long and no longer feel an affinity for it but still want to!

And if even the professional games reviewers are saying the same thing, may i refer you to PCGamer again, Britains biggest games magazine! Bit of free publicity. Then we cant be a small minority who feel this way...

personally i think it's time the sliders be simplified. i don't see a need for 20 notches, what is really the difference between 7 and 8 mentality? How about for mentality: shut up shop - very defensive - defensive - mixed but defensive minded - balanced - mixed but offesive minded - attacking - very attacking - all out attack. all in all that is 9 different mentalities, and they could sound like things that a manager can tell his team in real life. and also, there should be an option where when changing a team slider, individual sliders should change by the same ratio. for example i lower my overall mentality by 3 notches, my striker individual mentality which is at 3 notches higher than team, should automatically decrease by 3 also. Not a big deal, but can be very annoying when changing tactics in-game.

well in pandemonium!

Dont get me wrong im not going to complain about gliches this and that i think the game as a whole has amazing detail and it is a great footballing game, I just think Si have concentrated on the detail so much they may have forgot about us simple people that just want a fun game to play, To be honest i couldnt care less about team talks, press confrences, training or even the 3d match engine. I just want the old fm back the fun fm :o)

Give it a go with the guide I suggested, Roady. Print it out and read it while the misses has dragged you in the front room to watch a chick-flick.

I do have one suggestion left. Start somewhere new. I can happily admit that I've found my desire to play lacking over the last few years. I used to enjoy FM a lot more in the past but I've actually got that enthusiasm back with my current save. Last time I had that enthusiasm was with FM07; FM08 wasn't memorable for me.

Know what the connection is? In 07 my very memorable save was with Skarp in Norway. I'd never heard of them before and it was like being tossed into the deep end. In 08 I went with local teams, the mighty Bournemouth and Dorchester. I never really got into those saves. For 09 I have gone back to what I tried in 07. I'm managing a team I'd never really heard of; Koper in Slovenia. I've got that magic back.

Perhaps try something new and see how it goes. Hope you can find the magic again.

I hope SI can have a look at this and maybe give us a reply should they have the time. I do believe this is the biggest issue in FM and has been for a long time. I think the 20 notch scale has to be dropped and simplified for those who have fallen out of love with the game to rediscover what was once a godlike game! Simple doesnt mean easy. We are men. We dont wanna read endless drivel to make 10 different forms of a formation in order to win at the game. We just wanna switch on and have fun like we used to do!

Many may well be enjoying the game but many are not as-well and to criticise people for voicing their opinions because you dont agree with them is wrong. Lets look at this thread as a basis...You'll find the majority of this thread, people are unhappy with the way the game is. You cant just write that off. These forums live on people looking for how to succeed in the tactics. Its too complicated. Its not fun anymore. We are not here to complain for the sake of complaining, we complain because we have loved this game for so long and no longer feel an affinity for it but still want to!

And if even the professional games reviewers are saying the same thing, may i refer you to PCGamer again, Britains biggest games magazine! Bit of free publicity. Then we cant be a small minority who feel this way...

I never told anyone they were wrong. Some people read what they like. I don't agree, that's true, but I do think everyone is entitled to their opinion.

What about PCGamer (PC Zone is better btw)? I went to their website, typed in FM09 and found myself directed to a review by Steve Hill (who incidentally used to review for PCZone - still does I think). He didn't really mention tactical sliders (did mention the match engine and possible flaws) and he gave the game 9 out of 10?

Even if he did mention sliders he is still only 1 person. Even if 20 people added a comment about sliders they are still only 20 people, and a minority of FM09's audience.

I won't stand still and say the game can't be improved tactically, but I'm happy with the game as it is. I'm sure many, many people are sitting at home, happy, and not worrying about sliders, too.

PCgamer gave it 60 odd percent as a rating...

PCzone is boring now. I agree it used to be better but the writers are just not funny anymore.

I won't agree with your quote of 'many'. The truth is that 'many' are sitting in front of their computers enjoying the game. They feel no need to come on here and complain about the tactics system.

Yes, but I expect that 'many' also have put the disc away in the bottom of a drawer somewhere, having played for a while and finally having become fed up.

We won't get anywhere swapping hypotheticals about how those people who don't visit these forums feel about the game.

It's clear that not everyone is happy with the current product. I don't expect that all of them are tactically inept either.

I could well be exaggerating a little with quoting '2 hours', but I honestly can't recall how long I stared at that guide. If I'm honest with you, however long it was it was worth it for the enjoyment I am getting from FM09 of late.

The game can be as simplistic as you like, but, and I am referring to your previous post here, you may be causing yourself no end of problems by buying huge amounts of players. You said you have spent millions on a Reading team, but did that Reading team need millions spent on it? If you are buying players in the hopes of improving an already solid team then I think that is where you are going wrong. You're breaking up a strong team-spirit and lowering morale. That leads to inconsistencies in my opinion.

Start off slowly, rather than assuming you must win everything in season one. Personally, I think you have to get to know your team before you can improve them.

Finally, I'll comment on the number of people suggesting that FM has gone into too much depth regarding tactics. Well sorry, but FM has always been the game that focuses on realism. The thing that separates FM from FIFA and other management sims is the fact that it is deep and absorbing.

Does anyone think that Alex Ferguson could be a tactical novice and lead Manchester United to the success he has lead them to? He probably sits in an office for ages studying formations and watching videos.

Want to be immersed in a realistic world of football management? Yes? Well you have to take the rough with the smooth.

Think it's too demanding? Well, look over there...it's FIFA manager, with lovely pictures.

Sorry, I don't want to push you away, but FM is realistic and challenging. In my opinion that is what stands it out from the rest.

The slider system is not intuitive and the alterations that you make to settings are not reflected in what you see on the pitch, in part because the behaviour of players, especially defenders, is unrealistic. Scores may end up being reasonably credible, but the matches aren't.

When this is coupled with the annoying glitches such as excessive one on ones and low conversion rates of such chances in order to keep the scores 'realistic', the AMC rating problem, players standing still and allowing the ball to be taken from them, the over frequent '15 shots to their one and they win 1-0 in the 93rd minute' scenarios, the fact that I can set my team to defend deep and counter attack and they swarm around the opposition penalty area and get caught on the break..... I could go on.

It's the problems with an unrealistic and unresponsive ME which make the game not as much fun as it should be. Like the OP, I'm looking for fun in a game not a continual struggle against its inadequacies.

Hope the new CM is better.

What she said.

I would also add that the game doesnt even attempt to implement individual tactics in a simple and easy way. Can one give a player individual instructions that will last a season? No.

Must one do quite a few unnecessary clicks in implementing in-game tactics? Yes,

Could SI try to make both tactics and their implementation quite a bit easier for the user without making them simpler? Yes.

Yes, but I expect that 'many' also have put the disc away in the bottom of a drawer somewhere, having played for a while and finally having become fed up.

We won't get anywhere swapping hypotheticals about how those people who don't visit these forums feel about the game.

It's clear that not everyone is happy with the current product. I don't expect that all of them are tactically inept either.

You'll never have a situation where 'everyone' is happy with the game.

Remember Spore? I was seriously excited about that game. I played the creature creator and really looked forward to a game of depth, of innovation and challenge. I was sorely disappointed and I vented my frustration on the forums. I know I was one of a minority though. By sales, alone, it is a seriously popular game.

It was probably a very good game, too. It just wasn't my cup of tea so I looked elsewhere.

I agree that you will never satisfy everybody.

That doesn't alter the fact that there is a current of feeling amongst a significant number of people contributing to the forums (and we can argue till we are blue in the face about how exactly how many proportionally, basically to little purpose) that the current ME and tactical system need improvement.

FM has had very little real competition over recent times. As I said in my first post, I'm hoping (rather against hope) that CM can come up with a better game in April.

FM has had very little real competition over recent times. As I said in my first post, I'm hoping (rather against hope) that CM can come up with a better game in April.

I read a preview of CM in the current issue of PC Zone and it is looking much better than before. The fact that it seemed as if the Ryman league was playable is a big plus.

Whilst I will remain on record as believing FM is good, and doesn't need major changes, I do think that if CM catches up it will be a kick in the teeth that SI could do with. Any dev team can get complacent when they are out there on their own.

A good CM yapping at FMs heals can only be a good thing.

Probably not the place to go into detail with an FM/CM debate though. We're diverging away from the OPs thread as it is.

Well that sounds encouraging!

I read a preview of CM in the current issue of PC Zone and it is looking much better than before. The fact that it seemed as if the Ryman league was playable is a big plus.

Whilst I will remain on record as believing FM is good, and doesn't need major changes, I do think that if CM catches up it will be a kick in the teeth that SI could do with. Any dev team can get complacent when they are out there on their own.

A good CM yapping at FMs heals can only be a good thing.

Probably not the place to go into detail with an FM/CM debate though. We're diverging away from the OPs thread as it is.

This is very true. Look at Pro Evo for te evidence there! For years Fifa has been the inferior and much ridiculed of the 2 in magazines of all platforms, now the Pro Evo development team stand accused of resting on their laurels as Fifa has trounced it this time, shock horror. Although the PC version is still crap but most games are that come across from the consoles or are sports games.

Although I've never played CM in its new incarnation it would be good if it did get to a good level to snap at the heels of FM to give us a real alternative. But I'm not holding my breath!

Whilst I will remain on record as believing FM is good, and doesn't need major changes, I do think that if CM catches up it will be a kick in the teeth that SI could do with. Any dev team can get complacent when they are out there on their own.

I have to agree with that. There are several things (not just SI) that need a kick in the ass at the moment (Kerrang! radio and Wetherspoons being the other ones I can think of) as they simply don't have enough competition.

On topic I agree that it is slightly too complex at the moment on the tactics side but this is compensated by the improved transfer system from FM08 and the slightly better newgens.