Training - Discussion (At what point do attributes increase)

I am as dark as anyone else..there are some things I know a bit off, and this is one area of the game I really want to work on.

So let's start with a couple of assumptions:

(1)

As far as I know training works on the basis of CA and PA.Some attributes are more important to others and without using the Genie Scout Program I will have to defer to the training manual..or someone could explain this to all of us..for the benefit of mr.kite.

(2)

We also know that:

<pre class="ip-ubbcode-code-pre">

Strength: for Natural Fitness, Stamina, Strength, Work Rate

Aerobic: for Acceleration, Agility, Balance, Jumping, Pace, Reflexes

Goalkeeping: for Aerial Ability, Handling, Kicking, Throwing, One on Ones

Tactics: for Anticipation, Decisions, Positioning, Movement, Teamwork, Command of Area

Ball Control: for Dribbling, First Touch, Technique, Flair, Heading

Defending: for Tackling, Marking, Concentration

Attacking: for Passing, Creativity

Shooting: for Finishing, Long Shots, Composure

Set Pieces: for Crossing, Corners, Free Kicks, Penalties, Long Throws

</pre>

Within each of these training areas, attributes all can't increase at the same factor so there must be weights assigned, so that some attributes have a greater rate of increase. For each position in the game there has to be an optimum balance in attributes for instance a Goalkeeper wouldn't need...Ball Control as much as Defending. And because there are different attributes in different categories a weight needs to be used...this part makes sense to me...what do you guys think? Am I on the right track?

(3)

We also know that the training loads have: Low, Medium, High and Intensive. Now I will make the assumption and it should be natural to assume that at:

Low: Attributes do not increase but maintain

Medium: Attributes increase over the long term but at a slow rate

High: Attributes increase by at least 1 point for a season

Intensive: Attributes increase by 1 but at a faster rate.

(4) A player has a CA & PA and that attributes get reassigned once he hits a peak...someone needs to explain this to me cos I do not understand this part.

1.So if what i say holds and a player does improve attributes over a course of time, what then would the difference between a youth and an adult be training wise? Needs?

2.Do you need a preseason? Honestly? That's what I thought last year..its still at the back of my mind.

Just my thoughts...before i head to sleep.

I am as dark as anyone else..there are some things I know a bit off, and this is one area of the game I really want to work on.

So let's start with a couple of assumptions:

(1)

As far as I know training works on the basis of CA and PA.Some attributes are more important to others and without using the Genie Scout Program I will have to defer to the training manual..or someone could explain this to all of us..for the benefit of mr.kite.

(2)

We also know that:

<pre class="ip-ubbcode-code-pre">

Strength: for Natural Fitness, Stamina, Strength, Work Rate

Aerobic: for Acceleration, Agility, Balance, Jumping, Pace, Reflexes

Goalkeeping: for Aerial Ability, Handling, Kicking, Throwing, One on Ones

Tactics: for Anticipation, Decisions, Positioning, Movement, Teamwork, Command of Area

Ball Control: for Dribbling, First Touch, Technique, Flair, Heading

Defending: for Tackling, Marking, Concentration

Attacking: for Passing, Creativity

Shooting: for Finishing, Long Shots, Composure

Set Pieces: for Crossing, Corners, Free Kicks, Penalties, Long Throws

</pre>

Within each of these training areas, attributes all can't increase at the same factor so there must be weights assigned, so that some attributes have a greater rate of increase. For each position in the game there has to be an optimum balance in attributes for instance a Goalkeeper wouldn't need...Ball Control as much as Defending. And because there are different attributes in different categories a weight needs to be used...this part makes sense to me...what do you guys think? Am I on the right track?

(3)

We also know that the training loads have: Low, Medium, High and Intensive. Now I will make the assumption and it should be natural to assume that at:

Low: Attributes do not increase but maintain

Medium: Attributes increase over the long term but at a slow rate

High: Attributes increase by at least 1 point for a season

Intensive: Attributes increase by 1 but at a faster rate.

(4) A player has a CA & PA and that attributes get reassigned once he hits a peak...someone needs to explain this to me cos I do not understand this part.

1.So if what i say holds and a player does improve attributes over a course of time, what then would the difference between a youth and an adult be training wise? Needs?

2.Do you need a preseason? Honestly? That's what I thought last year..its still at the back of my mind.

Just my thoughts...before i head to sleep.

An excellent iniative. This forum needs this thread.

(3)Talented youth players so far seemingly increases at an faster rate than described, with a lower intensivity setting.

(4) When a player has reached his peak. He won`t improve in attributes, unless there is a fall in some other attributes. This is currently happening in my game. This change is due to training.

I have never used pre-season with FM before, this year I thought of it. There are bound be some links dependant on your coaches attributes. They are put into the game for a reason. Like with players, there must be som linked attributes leading somewhere.

So for example if I used an intensive pre-season and the attributes I gained in stamina, strength, work rate etc would mean I'd get less attributes elsewhere unless the attributes I gained from pre-season decreased again?

I'm confused...

I doubt if there is any definitive answers to these questions but my thoughts are:

The trainingn schedules will affect attributes but are only part of the package. The factors that will affect attribute increase will be:

Training schedules and Intensity

Training facilities

Number of coaches

Quality of coaches

How the coaches are allocated

The current level of the players CA and how close it is to the level of PA

As faeron said, if CA is close to PA then no matter what training you employ, attribute increase will be limited and larger increases in one attribute will lead to a drop in another one to ensure that the CA stays ther same if CA is equal to or close to PA

From what I see in the game, the only difference in adult and youth training is that youth training is slightly less intensive and has a slight imbalance towards skills training.

I have experimneted with pre season training and there is no doubt in my mind that if you have a preseason schedule that is tailored towards strength and aerobic training ( but not exclusively ) then players will regain full fitness quicker- this manifests itself in players being nearer to 100% when the season approaches. I have always used preseason training schedule for the first 3 weeks of preseason and then swap onto their normanl positional schedules.

Also how much of his PA a player reaches is determined by his personality. Model Professionals, ambitious, determined players will work harder by them selves. Whilst players with other personalities will require coaches with amongst others good motivating skill to reach further. Flamboyant players needs coaches with good attributes of disclipline etc.

Also younger players determination, work-rate, stamina, natural fitness is important to consider. Young players ranking well with these attributes, will be able to train more/harder than other young players. This is a way to make up for a slightly lack of talent. These players are more prone to reaching their PA by training more.

Things to consider when employing coaches: The way I do it is to look at all the different back-room staff in the game world. I look at all the World Class/Continental reputed ones. If there is a pattern of attributes they all/most of them have high value for, I look for this in my coaches as well.

The advantage of young players is that you can shape them to the players you want. This is what training do. But also their morale is very important to consider. Players that are unhappy with training schedules, is not a good thing. Either you alter their schedule or bring in a coach that might change things around. Also let youngsters play/play as substitutes in matches where they can show themselves, is a good thing. This will build them up. There is so much to say about training, I don`t have the overall picture, but there is a lot for us to discover.

The different aspects will offcourse be on training schedules. As important as well is the different coaching attributes and player personalities.

In so far as my limited knowledge on training goes, and I'm glad this has got some response, is that its often better to get a good spread of coaches.

What I'm interested in clearing up is this:

1) To what extent can a youth be coached, how intensively? If we assume that a youth has room to grow should his OTL be intensive or medium? My gut says medium. Since attributes still increase

2)I agree that preseason fitness allows players to regain fitness but there is also a strong school of thought that believes you can keep them on the same schedule just increase the OTL in preseason...reduce it during the course of the season, and increase it once again when the season is over.

3)Why skills training for youth? As we know, most youth begin low natural fitness/stamina/pace; has anyone believed in focusing on strength early and then skills.

In terms of workload youth should be set to medium. Anything high would mean they get injury and thu losing stats that was gained.

Work rate, technquie and determination is whats needed for faster development.

I think a memmber of SI should come in here and give us more infor on this cos training has changed alot since 06 and no one has been told how its changed.

The slow improvement is good to a certain extent, but what I feel is that the difference is not felt till the next season.

For example what I noticed is that when a player has improved (according to the training stats) it is not noted in his profile page till the next season when everything gets updated.

Im in my 3rd season and Rooney has improved alot since season 1 from 15 on finnishing to 17 and he is only 24 years old. Let say it took Rooney 6 months to increase his shooting stats from 16 to 17 (according to the training screen) that 1 increase will not be noted in his profile page till the next season.

So if during the 6 months Rooney has improved he will not be able to use that 17 finnishing stat till next season when the game updates itself. He has to continue to shoot with 16 points instead of 17. Even though he has improved his shooting according to the training screen.

Thats what I've noticed while playing the game.

Baring in mind this is with top class training factilites and 7 star coaches. It's took 1 year for a player to improve 1 point in some stats. Now for a lower league manager with poor training factilies and lets say 3 star coaches it must take them 2-3 years to notice a 1 point change in stats.

This is why I feel that training is bugged. Or is basically made too diffcult to do.

I have never taken a huge interest in training before, but I have recently started to look into it.

I am currently managing Torquay in League 1 (4th season, lol cant see to get out of the mud) and have adequate facilities and following

coaches:

Strenght: 5

Aerobic : 5

GK : 7

Tactics : 7

Ball C : 6

Def : 7

Att : 4

Shoot : 5

Set P : 4

I decided to check into how players at the club had developed over the last season, to see if I could get a clearer picture of how training works, or affects the players.

So here are my schedules, and their impact on the different players:

<pre class="ip-ubbcode-code-pre">

GOALKEEPING

Strenght : Medium (Middle)

Aerobic : Medium (Middle)

Goalkeeping : Medium (High)

Tactics : Light (High)

Ball Control : Light (High)

Defending : Medium (Low) * Not needed? Not showing on attributes overview

Attacking : Medium (Low) * Not needed? Not showing on attributes overview

Shooting : Medium (Low) * Not needed? Not showing on attributes overview

Set Pieces : Medium (Low)

GK (age 19)

Strength : +3 (Stamina 1, Strength 2)

Aerobic : +1 (Reflexes)

Goalkeeping : +3 (Handling 1, One on One 1, Throwing 1)

Tactics : +4 (Anticipation 1, Command Of Area 1, Communication 1, Positioning 1)

Ball Control : +2 (First Touch 1, Technique 1)

Set Pieces : 0

======================================================================================

DEFENDING

Strenght : Medium (Low)

Aerobic : Medium (Middle)

Goalkeeping : None

Tactics : Medium (Middle)

Ball Control : Medium (Low)

Defending : Medium (Middle)

Attacking : Medium (Middle)

Shooting : Light (Medium)

Set Pieces : Light (High)

Defender #1 (Age 23)

Strength : +1 (Strength)

Aerobic : +1 (Reflexes)

Goalkeeping : NA

Tactics : +1 (Decision)

Ball Control : +2 (Flair 1, Heading 1)

Defending : 0

Attacking : 0

Shooting : -2 (Composure -1, Long Shots -1)

Set Pieces : +1 (Long Throws)

Defender #2 (Age 24)

Strength : +1 (Strength)

Aerobic : 0

Goalkeeping : NA

Tactics : +1 (Off the ball)

Ball Control : +1 (First Touch)

Defending : +2 (Marking 1, Tackling 1)

Attacking : +1 (Passing)

Shooting : -2 (Composure -1, Finishing -1)

Set Pieces : +2 (Corners 1, Crossing 1)

Defender #3 (Age 25)

Strength : 0

Aerobic : +1 (Reflexes)

Goalkeeping : NA

Tactics : 0

Ball Control : +1 (Flair)

Defending : 0

Attacking : 0

Shooting : -2 (Composure -1, Finishing -1)

Set Pieces : 0

Defender #4 (Age 25)

Strength : +2 (Strenght 1, Stamina 1)

Aerobic : 0

Goalkeeping : NA

Tactics : +1 (Teamwork)

Ball Control : +1 (Technique)

Defending : +1 (Tackling)

Attacking : +1 (Passing)

Shooting : -2 (Composure)

Set Pieces : +2 (Long Throws 1, Penalties 1)

Defender #5 (Age 29)

Strength : 0

Aerobic : 0

Goalkeeping : NA

Tactics : 0

Ball Control : 0

Defending : 0

Attacking : 0

Shooting : 0

Set Pieces : 0

Defender #6 (Age 30)

Strength : -1 (Stamina)

Aerobic : +1 (Reflexes)

Goalkeeping : NA

Tactics : +1 (Off the ball)

Ball Control : +1 (Flair)

Defending : 0

Attacking : 0

Shooting : -3 (Composure -2, Long shots -1)

Set Pieces : 0

Defender #7 (Age 34)

Strength : -4 (Stamina -3, Strength -1)

Aerobic : -7 (Acceleration -2, Agility -1, Jumping -1, Pace -2, Reflexes -1)

Goalkeeping : NA

Tactics : -1 (Decisions)

Ball Control : -4 (Dribbling -1, First Touch -1, Heading -1, Technique -1)

Defending : -1 (Tackling)

Attacking : -2 (Passing -1, Creativity -1)

Shooting : -2 (Finishing -1, Long Shots -1)

Set Pieces : -5 (Corners -1, Crossing -2, Freekicks -1, Long Throws -1)

======================================================================================

MIDFIELDERS

Strenght : Medium (Middle)

Aerobic : Medium (Middle)

Goalkeeping : None

Tactics : Medium (Middle)

Ball Control : Medium (Middle)

Defending : Medium (Low)

Attacking : Medium (Low)

Shooting : Medium (Low)

Set Pieces : Medium (Low)

Midfielder #1 (Age 22)

Strength : 0

Aerobic : +1 (Reflexes)

Goalkeeping : NA

Tactics : 0

Ball Control : 0

Defending : 0

Attacking : 0

Shooting : 0

Set Pieces : 0

Midfielder #2 (Age 23)

Strength : 0

Aerobic : 0

Goalkeeping : NA

Tactics : 0

Ball Control : 0

Defending : 0

Attacking : 0

Shooting : 0

Set Pieces : 0

======================================================================================

WINGERS

Strenght : Medium (Middle)

Aerobic : Medium (Middle)

Goalkeeping : None

Tactics : Medium (Low)

Ball Control : Medium (Low)

Defending : Medium (Middle)

Attacking : Medium (High)

Shooting : Medium (Low)

Set Pieces : Medium (Low)

Winger #1 (Age 22)

Strength : 0

Aerobic : 0

Goalkeeping : NA

Tactics : 0

Ball Control : 0

Defending : 0

Attacking : 0

Shooting : 0

Set Pieces : 0

Winger #2 (Age 23)

Strength : 0

Aerobic : +1 (Reflexes)

Goalkeeping : NA

Tactics : +1 (Decisions)

Ball Control : 0

Defending : 0

Attacking : 0

Shooting : 0

Set Pieces : 0

Winger #3 (Age 25)

Strength : 0

Aerobic : 0

Goalkeeping : NA

Tactics : 0

Ball Control : 0

Defending : 0

Attacking : +1 (Creativity)

Shooting : 0

Set Pieces : 0

======================================================================================

ATTACKERS

Strenght : Medium (Middle)

Aerobic : Medium (Middle)

Goalkeeping : None

Tactics : Medium (Low)

Ball Control : Medium (Low)

Defending : Light (Low)

Attacking : High (Low)

Shooting : Middle (High)

Set Pieces : Middle (Low)

Attacker #1 (Age 29)

Strength : 0

Aerobic : +1 (Reflexes)

Goalkeeping : NA

Tactics : 0

Ball Control : 0

Defending : 0

Attacking : 0

Shooting : 0

Set Pieces : 0

Attacker #2 (Age 24)

Strength : +2 (Stamina 1, Work Rate 1)

Aerobic : +1 (Reflexes)

Goalkeeping : NA

Tactics : +2 (Positioning 1, Team Work 1)

Ball Control : +1 (Heading)

Defending : 0

Attacking : 0

Shooting : 0

Set Pieces : 0

Attacker #3 (Age 24)

Strength : 0

Aerobic : 0

Goalkeeping : NA

Tactics : 0

Ball Control : 0

Defending : -1 (Concentration)

Attacking : +2 (Creativity 1, Passing 1)

Shooting : 0

Set Pieces : 0

</pre>

So what does this mean? Well, Im not sure - but there is a couple of things that stands out to me:

<UL TYPE=SQUARE>

<LI> Reflexes: Increases for most players, whilst the other attributes in Aerobic, does not increase (Heavy weight on reflexes, perhaps?)

<LI> Attributes can increase even though training is on low - but it must be in the higher range (GK rising 4 points even when on low)

<LI> Youngsters attributes can rise quickly even when not playing (GK played one match last season, but attributes increased by 13 points)

<LI> As soon as training level is dropped to medium range of low, the attributes starts to decrease(look esp. on defenders-shooting)

<LI> Older players attributes decrease heavily, even though they play regurlarly (I thought decision would be an almost constant attribute)

<LI> Players attributes seems to increase slower in the areas with the worst coaches.

Thats about what I have figured out so far - or think I have figured out, lol.

Questions:

Weight to attributes?

Yes it seems so, from what I have seen so far - and as you hopefully see in the numbers provided

Training load?

Players can increase even if their on low load - but it has to be in the upper part. This can be useful, to adjust the total training load

Youngsters vs Adults?

I havent worked with youth schedules, but youngsters on adults schedules seems to get better with lower workload than the older ones(faster increase with less effort). And youngsters (U23) seems to get unhappier alot more often when the total workload is near the upper medium line. All my U23 players complained when the schedule was near that line, so I had to adjust it down some points to keep all players happy.

Preseason?

I dont know if you really need them, but in my case it has helped. The way I have made the preseason is to have highest possible in Strength, Aerobic and Setpieces. I use this for about a month, before switching back. What I have seen then, is that these three areas rises with one point within that month, and in most players stays there for the rest of the season. Some players get additional increase, and some have fallen back to the original level after a couple of months. But none(apart from the two old goats in defence) has decreased beyond the original level). So do we need them? Im not sure, but as I said they helped the players in the beginning of the season at least.

Skills training for youths?

I havent experimented with that yet, but I agree with you that since the physical attributes of youngsters are low, it is that area that should be focused on in FM training.

Perhaps a 70/30 schedule, so that you maintain the technical skills to. When you see players starting to get better physics, you could perhaps go towards a 50/50 load? Just throwing out thoughts here now.

Well, that was all I had to say - Dont know how intelligent it was, but at least its my thoughts

And it beats reading about Rational Unified Process, and Modelling - which I was supposed to do now

Good thread and I just wanted to add one thing I noticed recently.

I have a different training schedule for each position (so GK, defenders, midfielders, wingers and strikers) and generally what I do is lower the overall intensity from just below heavy to the lower end of medium towards the end of the season, as this is where I usually struggle to keep my players fitness up to around 96 - 100%.

This season (my 3rd) after using my usual pre-season training, which is pretty much the same as everyone elses, I put all my players back in the schedule that suited their position. However, I completely forgot to up the workload from about 2 notches into medium to my usual one notch below heavy. About half way through the season I noticed that my players technical and mental attributes had not gone back up at all after their drop in pre-season, and in some cases had dropped.

Eventually I realised what I'd done and upped the workload and noticed an almost instant increase in the attributes.

So the point is there seems to be a very big difference between having a low-medium workload and a just less than heavy workload.

I'm intrigued about concentrating youth training on physical attributes as someone mentioned and I think I'll give this a try and see how it works. Although I'm sure one of the in-game tips says that you shouldn't over-train youth players due to them still developing.

I wonder how much of an effect this actually does have in the game. I'm going to set up a couple of youth schedules, one more intensive and see which seems to work better in the long term.

Now a newbie question ^^. Where can I see how many points have my players increased? I suppose that you will tell me "in the player screen, when you tick on 'Effect of training on player'". If it is so, i have the following questions:

1-Those arrows show the variation of the last year? couple months? Anything else?

2-Since there are different kinds of arrows, how many points do any arrow show? 1 for little better, 3 for maximum?

3-What happens with it if a player gets injured because then all arrows drop, but then when he recovers, they raise again, so it makes me think that those high arrows show the variation compared to the period that player was injured.

Also I can see arrows showing the effect of training in every player, but I don't know what they exactly show

Please help!

no training department experts

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by rashidi1:

In so far as my limited knowledge on training goes, and I'm glad this has got some response, is that its often better to get a good spread of coaches.

What I'm interested in clearing up is this:

1) To what extent can a youth be coached, how intensively? If we assume that a youth has room to grow should his OTL be intensive or medium? My gut says medium. Since attributes still increase

2)I agree that preseason fitness allows players to regain fitness but there is also a strong school of thought that believes you can keep them on the same schedule just increase the OTL in preseason...reduce it during the course of the season, and increase it once again when the season is over.

3)Why skills training for youth? As we know, most youth begin low natural fitness/stamina/pace; has anyone believed in focusing on strength early and then skills. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

1) I have them on the highest notch of medium. When I wrote about the player personalities, how hard players with the right attitude/attribute would/could train. I didn`t mean that you should put him on very intensive schedules. It is more that he will train harder/give everything with the workload you have gim him. Whilst players who aren`t able/interested to do that might not do that.

2) If you raise the fitness training. Offcourse they will rise during the pre season. But I believe that the acchieved level for physical stats will decline one/two months after you have set the physical training back to normal. If we found a level(that is lower) to maintain the acchieved rise of physical attributes it would make sense to make pre-season schedules. So far I haven`t found that.

3) Physical/skills are just as important. A youth player wich doesn`t have the required physical when maturing will never be able to play proffesional football at the higher levels. The days of Carlos Valderrama are gone. Endurance is a must.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Fred_the_Red:

In terms of workload youth should be set to medium. Anything high would mean they get injury and thu losing stats that was gained.

Work rate, technquie and determination is whats needed for faster development.

I think a memmber of SI should come in here and give us more infor on this cos training has changed alot since 06 and no one has been told how its changed.

The slow improvement is good to a certain extent, but what I feel is that the difference is not felt till the next season.

For example what I noticed is that when a player has improved (according to the training stats) it is not noted in his profile page till the next season when everything gets updated.

Im in my 3rd season and Rooney has improved alot since season 1 from 15 on finnishing to 17 and he is only 24 years old. Let say it took Rooney 6 months to increase his shooting stats from 16 to 17 (according to the training screen) that 1 increase will not be noted in his profile page till the next season.

So if during the 6 months Rooney has improved he will not be able to use that 17 finnishing stat till next season when the game updates itself. He has to continue to shoot with 16 points instead of 17. Even though he has improved his shooting according to the training screen.

Thats what I've noticed while playing the game.

Baring in mind this is with top class training factilites and 7 star coaches. It's took 1 year for a player to improve 1 point in some stats. Now for a lower league manager with poor training factilies and lets say 3 star coaches it must take them 2-3 years to notice a 1 point change in stats.

This is why I feel that training is bugged. Or is basically made too diffcult to do. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

If you look at traing, and attributes. You can monitor players changes in attributes for the last 12 months. You will find increases there more often than each 12th month. Forget about the green arrows besides the attributes on the profile screen. They are just for the last few weeks.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by faeron:

If you look at traing, and attributes. You can monitor players changes in attributes for the last 12 months. You will find increases there more often than each 12th month. Forget about the green arrows besides the attributes on the profile screen. They are just for the last few weeks. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

But in this way you can't know what amount have your players raise or drop in each attribute :/ How can I know if my 19 years old striker has improved 2 points of composure in last 12 months or he has only improved 1 point? Is it possible?

yes it is. To go a players profile. From the menu on the left of the screen, choose training. This will give you two more options. The overview and attributes. Choose attributes. At the right top corner you can choose to watch his improvement by training group(shows every attribute affected by that training group) or simply click on the attribute you want to look at.

Arrrrrrrgggg thanks, I'm feeling quite naive now ¬¬u. In fact I looked at it quite in fm2007, but usually to see how injuries affect my players, not linking it with training. Now I'm at work and was thinking abouth global training screen, not individual player attributes.

Thanks for helping me to remember ^^

Developing players that has not reached their potential: How intensive you set the different training categories compared to eachother, is how much the player will improve proportonaly in the different categories. If you set the intensivity for all training categories at the same. The player will develope almost the same amount for all training categories.

If for example you raise the intensivity for shooting category and decrease the intensivity for defending category. The player will improve much more with shooting. Not improve that much/if at all in the training category. The rest of the training categories will improve proportonaly.

Developing players that are close to/have reached their potential If you set intensivity for all training schedules alike this will shape the player over time. Example: If a player has high value with set pieces and low values for defending. Over time he will decrease his value with the set-pieces attributes. Also he will improve his defending attributes.

If you want to keep the player as he is. You should increase the intensivity for set-pieces, and decrease the intensivity for defending

Wich attributes that improves within each training category is dependant of the players personality and the coaches attributes. How exactly this works, I don`t have the overall picture of this. The only way to find out is by doing a Lyssien. An huge experiment that maybe could produce some guidelines.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by faeron:

Developing players that has not reached their potential: How intensive you set the different training categories compared to eachother, is how much the player will improve proportonaly in the different categories. If you set the intensivity for all training categories at the same. The player will develope almost the same amount for all training categories.

If for example you raise the intensivity for shooting category and decrease the intensivity for defending category. The player will improve much more with shooting. Not improve that much/if at all in the defendingtraining category. The rest of the training categories will improve proportonaly.

Developing players that are close to/have reached their potential If you set intensivity for all training schedules alike this will shape the player over time. Example: If a player has high value with set pieces and low values for defending. Over time he will decrease his value with the set-pieces attributes. Also he will improve his defending attributes.

If you want to keep the player as he is. You should increase the intensivity for set-pieces, and decrease the intensivity for defending

Wich attributes that improves within each training category is dependant of the players personality and the coaches attributes. How exactly this works, I don`t have the overall picture of this. The only way to find out is by doing a Lyssien. An huge experiment that maybe could produce some guidelines. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Used preseason for the first time this season. And it helped me getting my players fit much faster.

I had Strength/Aerobics on high and the rest on medium (besides GK).

Looks like they are faster fit for matches, and therefor more ready for your seasonal trainings.

The rest is like a big dark spot as well. I just fill it in according to their position / my tactics. Having my training workload on just before it turns heavy and lower it slightly during the season when i see my players get some fitness problems.

My experience is that the intensive physical training in preseason helps a lot. Physical skills improve a lot and, then during the season you just train physical training just enough to maintain the level of fitness.

The effect was great on youth players. My 18 year-old striker had pace - 9, jumping - 9 at the end of season one. in august he had pace - 11, jumping - 13. And the best thing was that the skill attributes improve substantially early in the season, so you do not need to worry about them so much.

About work load: as I get a nervous breakdown when I see a red arrow next to an attribute, I like to keep my schedules work loads on the highest notch of medium. I would give a player a rest every time I see he is tired though. It works ok, even though at some point of the season three or four key players are "in need of a rest" and I start the rotation to give them a break. The good thing is that usually there are plenty of cup games this time of the season .

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Assenuma:

My experience is that the intensive physical training in preseason helps a lot. Physical skills improve a lot and, then during the season you just train physical training just enough to maintain the level of fitness.

The effect was great on youth players. My 18 year-old striker had pace - 9, jumping - 9 at the end of season one. in august he had pace - 11, jumping - 13. And the best thing was that the skill attributes improve substantially early in the season, so you do not need to worry about them so much.

About work load: as I get a nervous breakdown when I see a red arrow next to an attribute, I like to keep my schedules work loads on the highest notch of medium. I would give a player a rest every time I see he is tired though. It works ok, even though at some point of the season three or four key players are "in need of a rest" and I start the rotation to give them a break. The good thing is that usually there are plenty of cup games this time of the season . </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

After pre-season the gained/boosted increase in physical attributes doesn`t fall during the season?

How intensively do you train your players in the aerobic/strenght category during the season?

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by faeron:

Developing players that has not reached their potential: How intensive you set the different training categories compared to eachother, is how much the player will improve proportonaly in the different categories. If you set the intensivity for all training categories at the same. The player will develope almost the same amount for all training categories.

If for example you raise the intensivity for shooting category and decrease the intensivity for defending category. The player will improve much more with shooting. Not improve that much/if at all in the training category. The rest of the training categories will improve proportonaly.

Developing players that are close to/have reached their potential If you set intensivity for all training schedules alike this will shape the player over time. Example: If a player has high value with set pieces and low values for defending. Over time he will decrease his value with the set-pieces attributes. Also he will improve his defending attributes.

If you want to keep the player as he is. You should increase the intensivity for set-pieces, and decrease the intensivity for defending

Wich attributes that improves within each training category is dependant of the players personality and the coaches attributes. How exactly this works, I don`t have the overall picture of this. The only way to find out is by doing a Lyssien. An huge experiment that maybe could produce some guidelines. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

There was only one Lyssien..

One other thing..if you look through the season from start to end...you will find that preseason effects on stamina/aerobics don't stay..at least that's what i've noticed. I'm now more inclined towards having increasing the OTL in preseason and making that high..and then bring it down before the season starts.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by faeron:

Developing players that has not reached their potential: How intensive you set the different training categories compared to eachother, is how much the player will improve proportonaly in the different categories. If you set the intensivity for all training categories at the same. The player will develope almost the same amount for all training categories.

If for example you raise the intensivity for shooting category and decrease the intensivity for defending category. The player will improve much more with shooting. Not improve that much/if at all in the training category. The rest of the training categories will improve proportonaly.

Developing players that are close to/have reached their potential If you set intensivity for all training schedules alike this will shape the player over time. Example: If a player has high value with set pieces and low values for defending. Over time he will decrease his value with the set-pieces attributes. Also he will improve his defending attributes.

If you want to keep the player as he is. You should increase the intensivity for set-pieces, and decrease the intensivity for defending

Wich attributes that improves within each training category is dependant of the players personality and the coaches attributes. How exactly this works, I don`t have the overall picture of this. The only way to find out is by doing a Lyssien. An huge experiment that maybe could produce some guidelines. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

There was only one Lyssien..

One other thing..if you look through the season from start to end...you will find that preseason effects on stamina/aerobics don't stay..at least that's what i've noticed. I'm now more inclined towards having increasing the OTL in preseason and making that high..and then bring it down before the season starts.

rashidi: Sounds sensible. How much do you increase the overall workload. How many clicks/notches raised from you normal workload?

It seems to get a player to reach a certain level(attribute-value) you need to train him to it and keep the same intensivity to keep him there. That is what it seems like so far.

I increase my OTL to high notch of medium and leave it there during preseason, the week of the community shield I drop it to its mid normal, and then I adjust it during the course of the season.

Agreed, it seems to me that if you have a defender who is strong at positional play then you need to keep up training at that level. Points tend to get redistributed in general training once a player reaches a certain point.

Here are some screenshots... notice preseason: he was on preseason training and that hardly did anything. So now what I've done is different, focusing on him as a defensive midfielder and tailoring the training schedule based on his attributes. I started it in September and the OTL benefits are clear and much better than anything I used to do

Hmm Hunt I bought in preseason..kennedy is a better example..he has been with the club for more than a season now..last season he was on a general training schedule, this season I created one specifically for fullbacks,look at preseason again..an intensive schedule that didn't maintain fitness levels the moment he was switched in September obvious benefits; Hunt has only played one game out of 18 whereas Kennedy is a starter:

Do you guys keep players onthe same schdule all the time through the season or do youmix it up bit?

Seems like every month nothing changes so I tend to keep them on the same training for 6months.

I do sometimes switch to another training schedule if I find he needs to work on some other area of his game...but overall in most cases I hardly do that..i just manage the OTL

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by rashidi1:

There was only one Lyssien..

</div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Wow, so it is nice to be remembered

Unfortunately, I am overburdened at work, so I don't think I can offer much here at this stage in my life. I merely have the time to play a little bit.

Anyway, back on topic. About preseason training, I have a feeling, but haven't had the time to test it yet:

Heavy preseason training (and playing a lot of friendlies) gets players fit quickly, OK this far. The important thing is this: Will these players get tired quicker during the season?

I have a feeling that preseason training (and number of friendlies) affects the time that a player will reach the peak of his from during the season.

Case I:

Want your players to maintain an acceptable level of fitness with acceptable number of injuries during whole season? You gotta use a light preseason schedule (eg. the same one you are using during the season).

This is especially crucial if you are a big club that plays in a lot of competitions (CL etc). But, in this case, you should be ready for some not-so-good results at the beginning of season.

Case II:

Is your main goal to have a near-perfect first half of season?

This is the case with clubs that want to excel at the CL group stage. But it also applies to clubs that have a deep bench and can therefore rotate a lot.

In this case, heavy preseason training and a lot of friendly matches are a must. However, you are bound to need a lot of rotation throughout the season, and be ready to face more injuries as well.

Also, don't forget that more preseason games mean your team is going to be coherent sooner.

This is my feeling of how preseason works, but unfortunately, I haven't had the time to test this properly. So it's up to you now, guys!

Hey hey hey...Lyssien the wily ol fox..nice to see you posting again..i think you had a total of 2 posts last year.

Well I'm beginning to think preseason is a waste of time now..I just had my players conditions wearing out really badly in the tail end of the season last year.

What I'm going to do now is use my existing player schedules this season and just increase their OTL in preseason to heavy.

Interesting thread, I'll have to read it back through when I'm less bleary eyed.

I've never been into running experiments in my games (lack of dedication probably), but the workings of training and the effect on player attributes is something I'd like to know more about.

I agree with the opening post that there has to be some weighting assigned to each category, hopefully dependent on player position too. A little thing that's always irked me with training, is composure falling under the shooting category - yet it is still an important attribute for defenders(and other non-forwards). The majority of the time I do not want my central defenders working on their finishing (and would be quite happy with them having a stat of 1), but obviously need to have them on a regime with some shooting training in order for them to maintain their composure. You'd hope that the game therefore gives more weight to the composure stat in shooting training for defenders, but I doubt it.

I am still yet to purchase the game, as I am waiting first for the patch to be released, but I am interested to see what the new manual has to offer. For me, the lack of explanation when it comes to the workings of the game is something which really lets it down. I've never understood why there aren't more official definitions/guidelines for certain aspects; lack of understanding leads to frustration for many people, including myself.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Well I'm beginning to think preseason is a waste of time now..I just had my players conditions wearing out really badly in the tail end of the season last year.

What I'm going to do now is use my existing player schedules this season and just increase their OTL in preseason to heavy. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I might suggest you don't increase the overall workload at all in preaseason. I leave it as is for my Panathinaikos side (playing in 3 competitions: league/CL/cup), have 4 friendlies and then am pretty happy with the condition of my players.

(but, I repeat, I haven't tested it thoroughly)

I just tried it out..i kept my overall training schedules...no preseason this time. Instead I adjust the OTL in preseason to heavy.

I lost one player to a broken leg for 5 months..but his natural fitness is 5, so that isn't exactly unexpected. The rest of the team looked ok. My only players of concern are those who were injured going into preseason.

The overall progress seems to be better thus far. I'll only know when the season is done whether my players performed any better.

Compared to last season when I actually had a preseason..two things are notable:

1. The overall improvements are higher than the same period the previous seaosn

2. Their match conditioning ie..(95%) is almost the same if not better.

Just an example. This was a player who had a preseason last season. Note the effects of his Overall training in August. Then compare it to the same month.

During the months of Jan& Feb I dropped the OTL to low notch of medium, and then raised it again in March. Preseason this year was done on heavy..its now medium. hmm...I'm beginning to like this.

I know the numbers aren't absolute, but I've been having this sneaky feeling at the back of my mind that this may actually work

So what's the conclusion you're coming to Rash? That it's better to have a less intensive pre-season?

(Sorry just skimmed the thread as I'm in the middle of creating all my schedules and just stumbled across this)

Not enough time to draw a conclusion...but my feeling thus far is to toss out preseason training completely. The only thing I do now is to increase the OTL in preseason to heavy, bring it down when the season starts....it appears to be better...its just what I see.

Going to use the same player Seaborne again..he's consistent, plays almost every game.

My goal is to maintain the same training, but to increase OTL in preseason to ensure that he doesn't have a bad training month. This is his overall.

During preseason all his attributes showed an increase..between the time he started this new programme of mine..

Strength Category

1 point increase in stamina and strength in January...maintained all the way to now October.

1 point increase in workrate in september after preseason.

Aerobic - No improvement

Tactics

1 point - Positioning (Jan) maintained

1 point - Teamwork, Anticipation (Apr) maintained

1 point - Off the ball (Sep) maintained

Ball Control

1 point - Dribbling (Dec) maintained

1 point - Heading (Jan)maintained

1 point - First Touch (Apr)maintained

1 point - Flair (July) Maintained

1 point - Technique - September maintained

defending

1 point - Marking (dec) Maintained

1 point - concentration (jan) maintained

1 point - tackling (sept) maintained

Attacking =

1 point - passing (Jan) Maintained with a dip down in July up in Sept

1 point - creativity (Sept)

Shooting

1 point movement - finishing/longshots (dec) not maintained retained to old levels.

1 point - Composure (sept) maintained

Set pieces

1 point improvement in corners, crossing, freekicks, throwins

various times in year all maintained

Hmm guess I'm using this system..by the looks of it, the only concern I could have is tiredness, so far played 12 matches conditioning averaging 92%. 1 longterm injury from my new training regime...he won't be missed.

I think I will follow your advice about the increased OTL in pre-season.

What I do to increase the percentage condition during the season, is a little different than you. I set the intensity for the strenght intensity to the middlest notch of the medium intensity range(like you did with aerobic).

This will lead to players gaining a 100% when there is a week between matches. If a player plays more often, the most physically demanding positions(MC`s) reaches 94-95% condition before each match.

The players physical stats influence this, but whenever I have tried to lower the intensity for strenght the conditions drops.

its not advice...i'm just observing this from my own style of training....seeing that everyone was doing preseason training I thought i'd try something different..

So far my players have played 16 matches..conditioning is between 91-93 for MCs 95 and above for the rest.

I'm playin in LL2 where i can see as many as 3 games in 10 days. Coming to december now so i will drop the OTL to mid medium.

I'm going to give this a bit of a test aswell. Currently using Man Utd so I'll pick a couple of players and see how they do.

Rashidi, did you drop the OTL back down after pre-season and still maintain most of the attribute increases you'd had? Or have you left it quite heavy?

This is how I manage it:

Preseason Heavy

Season Aug - November -High notch of medium

From then on I just observe my player conditions and adjust accordingly. So far I haven't had any training related injuries yet.

My players are not developing so fast :/ Well, I don't have a fitness trainer, any of my coaches get more than 1* in strength or aerobics, and only 3 players have a full time contract XDDD The fact is my players don't raise a lot.

rashidi1: have you ever "shared" your specific training regimes? Err..not asking for the files just the ideas you go through for each.

I'm guessing it's nothing really different from all the others posted around here but it seems i'm really clueless about training because i just can't seem to get it right. I either get massive stat drops or my players just stop performing :|

Quick question: I have noticed the 'Determination' stat of several of my players decreasing, both young and old. How do i combat this?

I did a lot of searches looked at other peoples training schedules and this is what I've found:

1. There is an optimum level of training for all players

2. Whatever it is the only time to go heavy in training is preseason

3. Two ways to approach training General and Specific

<LI>General training is safe...ideally grouping players by position and sometimes entire groups..this kind of training I used to do and found it especially useful if you want to centre training around a specific style. For example, my tactics demand a great deal of teamwork and movement, so they have a natural slant towards tactics

<LI>Specific training schedules which are more focused and try to develop players to perform individual roles more efficiently. Now this is the style I'm currently adopting.

I have a training programme which is uploaded to my savefiles folder, however these have been superseded by this new approach of mine.

The approach is not totally new. I think others have done something like this, however in my approach to preseason and how I tackle the development of players season-long its probably a bit more unique...forgive my bantering..

To design each schedule, I look at attributes relevant to each position, then set these to high, for other training areas the lowest I set it to is 7 notches which maintains their levels.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">(3)We also know that the training loads have: Low, Medium, High and Intensive. Now I will make the assumption and it should be natural to assume that at:Low: Attributes do not increase but maintainMedium: Attributes increase over the long term but at a slow rateHigh: Attributes increase by at least 1 point for a seasonIntensive: Attributes increase by 1 but at a faster rate. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I think, in this point you are wrong. In my opinion this is too optimistic assumption. I think it should be smth like that:

Low: Attributes do not increase and could decrease

Medium: Attributes do not increase but there is a small chance they could increase over the long term but at a slow rate

High: Attributes increase by c.a. 1 point for a season

Intensive: Attributes increase by at least 1 point for a season and there is a chance they could increase at a faster rate.

I would agree with the last assumption that putting a player on Low in training results in no increase and is likely to decrease.

I would also add that I believe they do increase on Medium but is dependent on the players potential ability and quality of coaches and facilities.