The right difficulty balance this time around?

I've played a few seasons of 09 now and I have to say I'm becoming increasingly disappointed, not by the bugs or anything particular in the match engine but with the difficulty. I'm not the kind of person who likes to click continue and to win, I do like a challenge, but I cannot seem to get the same level of enjoyment from 09 as experienced with 07 (skipped 08).

First save, original game and then patch 9.0.1 I took QPR into the Prem and quite enjoyed that.

Started over with Newcastle (I tend to do this when I feel I've become accustomed to the new game) and did reasonably well until 9.0.2 came along. That seemed to improve some areas but make others slightly worse off for my team. To shed all fears of patch problems I started over again, with Newcastle, and the first season was quite a stormer. Up until the final ten games. I moaned at some players, morale dropped amongst a few and from then on I couldn’t buy a win. Excellent strikers with great morale (midfielders were unhappy, not the whole team) would miss open goals and chance after chance. My keyboard took a heavy beating that season. I do feel as though team gelling/tactics quality are displayed through individual performances too blatantly. A happy striker with an easy chance should tuck it away a little more frequently than he does at present regardless of team morale I think. Not creating as many chances is surely more reflective of the team as a whole. Firing wide and hitting the bar seem to hinting something isn’t quite right...

Resigned to the fact I was going to fall away in the title race (had been sitting in 2nd just a couple of points off 1st) my team eventually finished 5th. Not too bad, but I had hoped for 4th and to lose that to a resurgent Man City on goal difference meant the keyboard got another smacking. Man City... hmm, they are probably (after Arsenal) the team I hate within FM the most what with their buying of everyone and then discarding them months later . I dislike Arsenal for, in my game at least, they win almost every game and totally destroy weaker teams meaning their goal difference can be noticeably higher than any other top team.

So... the next season comes around and, buoyed by a new owner with deep pockets, I purchase a few talents. Mostly for the youth team as the real stars I cannot seem to prise away from other teams. Hopefully this will be possible when I'm in the Champs League the following season. IF I perform better this time around...

Ten or so games into the new season and I'm sitting 2nd behind Everton. Man Utd and Arsenal are close by, they each had a minor setback early on in the season but they will no doubt come storming back. Okay, so position in the table is fine but I feel as though its down to sheer luck. We could easily be sitting in 10th.

Enough of the background story...

What I am not liking is the up and downs of matches. I cannot tell what the opposition is going to be like from their position in the table. The 20th place whipping boys can visit St James' and push me all the way. They seem to play very well, scoring when they get a chance. Considering they might only get a couple of chances, they seem more than able to put them away in real style. Through-ball from keeper, great bit of control, brush off the defender and race towards goal coolly slotting past Given. Fine, these things happen... but why on the first break? Why follow it up with a super freekick I can only dream about my team scoring? Now I sound like those that moan after a loss

It's not that its so much harder beating the weaker teams (although I simply cannot beat them 3nil/4nil/5nil like some teams can) its the fact they tuck away chances that belie their results/performances against other teams as well as their standing in the table. Routinely.

I can perform against the top-four at home, I always feel we have a chance. I've beaten them a few times and done well. I cannot play against the weaker teams and I am disappointed with the number of CCC my team fails to make pay. Watching your team squander a great many chances only to see the supposedly weak opposition dispatch their first CCC with deadly accuracy is hurting my keyboard and denting my pride.

I hate to lose, but I'm at a loss as to what I can do.

-I've read the forum, quite extensively.

-I've read the tactics documents end to end.

-I follow most of the Ass Man advice, within reason.

This year’s version, for me at least, feels very tough. Perhaps I do not put enough time into it all. Not understanding how you go about rectifying things is massively deflating. I wouldn’t have thought the majority of players read the tactics bible(s) or visit this site.

My teams performances within 09 are on a bit of a rollercoaster. I did love 07, but found it relatively easy within 3-4 seasons. Now its swung too far the other way IMO.

From my point of view its tough, I cannot find the right 'setup' and I do not know where to look. The game does not help me anywhere near as much as it perhaps could. Perhaps my team still needs to gel; perhaps they are not used to my formation just yet... I don’t know and its annoying me

So, if you've read all the waffle, do you think 09 is a lot harder to play or am I going crazy/being rubbish? I'm looking forward to seeing whether or not 9.0.3 is capable of reducing the frustration I seem to feel when playing the game. It has great potential; I'd just like things to appear a little more fair.

I thought 9.2 hit it just right. Still more difficult that 08 and 07, but then I got bored by both; I once went an entire season with one starting tactic unbeaten. 9.1 IMO was way too hard - eg, whenever I went 2-0 up in the first 20mins against a fellow Prem team I knew I'd lose 3-2. Probably tactical, but I didn't find a solution.

Some people think 9.2 is too hard, some think it's too easy. I'm around the middle, so I guess it's horses for courses. Nowhere near as much criticism on the boards as there were with the demo or 9.1 so the majority of people are probably happy with it.

People only tend to post when they are unhappy.

First of all: Great post. I don't agree with all of it, naturally, but you took the time to express yourself in a thoughtful and coherent manner. Much respect!

Personally, I define the difficulty of FM by the level of random variable effect on result calculation. For my tuppence worth, I'd really like to see this toned down a couple of notches and for the ME to be a little bit more consistent. I'm still more than happy to see random stuff, but when it gets to the point where you really don't know why your team is playing or not playing a certain way and/or you can almost predict when you are going to struggle due to the underdog/away modifiers, it loses some of its magic.

So for me - make the game as complicated as you like - but keep it consistent. If that means fewer variables on match day, so be it. Obviously I want the ME to remain complicated, but I want the ME to determine who wins not the various modifiers from media, player interaction, weather and underdog etc. These have their part to play but much less directly than in the current build.

I think, sincerely this would help tremendously when it comes to getting 'in' to a game and if perhaps these things could find their way into the preferences as directly configurable, all the better. Difficulty can be dynamic in FM, very easily so, if S.I take the steps to let the player customise their own experience and tailor it directly to personal tastes instead of the one-size-fits-all approach we currently enjoy.

I suspect fewer random or exterraneus variables would aid match processing considerably and go a long way toward debunking the 'AI is cheating' conspiracy theories and of course reducing the machine overhead.

Very good post expressed in a thoughful and detailed manner

I think that although this years release is difficult, mainly due to improved AI and the added depth and detail that has gone in the tactical side of the game, it is still the best and most addictive version yet. Yes i agree that sometimes it is annoying that the AI will overcome your tactics almost at ease because of the difficulty, however I think that this is what makes it so much fun to try and get one over the AI and improve as a 'manager' so to speak.

I suspect fewer random or exterraneus variables would aid match processing considerably and go a long way toward debunking the 'AI is cheating' conspiracy theories and of course reducing the machine overhead.

I couldn't agree more - I've made a similar point in another thread.

The balance seems wrong to me somehow. The quality of your players simply isn't given enough weight (yes, I KNOW that upsets happen but not as often as FM generates IMO) and media, player interaction, etc seem to be given excessive importance. It is thus very difficult to pre-plan your strategy as what is a reasonable enough setup based on your scout's report tends to be thrown out of gear by these unpredictable, almost random variables.

Simplify it SI. Make it as tough as you like but, in principle, it should be possible to set up a reasonable strategy based on information which you have rather than relying essentially on luck. The current version doesn't make for as enjoyable an experience as it should.

Yeah, I agree with the OP. It's a long post T4rg4 has written, and I could pinpoint some of the complaints and agree with them, but rather than doing so I will just add something that has made it hard for me to enjoy the game.

I had a match coming up, that I decided to play 12 times in a row (playing, realoading, playing, reloading). I won it 7 times, lost it 4 times and drew once. The most terrifying fact is that I beat the opposition 4-0 in one game and lost another one 3-0. The stats weren't consistent at all; sometimes I would outplay them and sometimes they kicked my behind.

Do I need to mention that in every game I used the same tactics to 100% and that I team talked my men in the exact same way?

As I said, I agree with the op, and this little experiment of mine has made me even more blunt to the whole experience.

I think Rupal is making some very good points in his post. The game should be simplified, as it is today it is too complex.

And just to finish this one off, I wanna add that I actually am doing good in the game. So please, spare me from any "if-the-game's-too-hard-for-you-yadda-yadda-yadda". Thanks!

Some people think 9.2 is too hard, some think it's too easy. I'm around the middle, so I guess it's horses for courses. Nowhere near as much criticism on the boards as there were with the demo or 9.1 so the majority of people are probably happy with it.

People only tend to post when they are unhappy.

I thought it just right for a while. Then I became unhappy

So for me - make the game as complicated as you like - but keep it consistent. If that means fewer variables on match day, so be it. Obviously I want the ME to remain complicated, but I want the ME to determine who wins not the various modifiers from media, player interaction, weather and underdog etc. These have their part to play but much less directly than in the current build.

If this is the root cause of the rollercoaster effect I feel as though I'm experiencing then I agree completely.

I think that although this years release is difficult, mainly due to improved AI and the added depth and detail that has gone in the tactical side of the game, it is still the best and most addictive version yet.

I think its almost there. Whilst I seem to remember 07 being less frustrating, that game did feel a little more transparent. I'm hoping 9.0.3 delivers that little extra...

I had a match coming up, that I decided to play 12 times in a row (playing, realoading, playing, reloading). I won it 7 times, lost it 4 times and drew once. The most terrifying fact is that I beat the opposition 4-0 in one game and lost another one 3-0. The stats weren't consistent at all; sometimes I would outplay them and sometimes they kicked my behind.

Do I need to mention that in every game I used the same tactics to 100% and that I team talked my men in the exact same way?

For me that shows the weighting for random factors is a little too high. I do wonder if it evens itself out over the course of a season though. I guess you'd have to run several seasons with the exact same actions which is impossible. Some people claim to be able to take a team like Newcastle and go unbeaten in the first season. I've no idea how they'd do this!

Yeah, I agree with the OP. It's a long post T4rg4 has written, and I could pinpoint some of the complaints and agree with them, but rather than doing so I will just add something that has made it hard for me to enjoy the game.

I had a match coming up, that I decided to play 12 times in a row (playing, realoading, playing, reloading). I won it 7 times, lost it 4 times and drew once. The most terrifying fact is that I beat the opposition 4-0 in one game and lost another one 3-0. The stats weren't consistent at all; sometimes I would outplay them and sometimes they kicked my behind.

Do I need to mention that in every game I used the same tactics to 100% and that I team talked my men in the exact same way?

No football match is or ever will be the same. What you are complaining about is the fact the game doesn't calculate the exact same scenarios and events at the exact same time each and every time you reload, thus giving you a variety of scorelines. I understand the point you are trying to make, but that isn't how football works, or any sport for that matter. There will always be an element of luck due to the infinite amount of ways a human can react to any given situation. If there weren't this element of luck or randomness involved then FM would undoubtedly become very predictable and easy to win

On the subject of difficulty; the fact that people can get crap teams to the top in such a short space of time tells me that if anything FM (hailed as a simulation of real football) is too easy. If it were actually realistic most of you would spend your entire LLM careers stuck in the lower leagues. How much easier do you want it exactly? Should there be an option to make good form last forever? Should bad runs of form be eliminated altogether?

No football match is or ever will be the same. What you are complaining about is the fact the game doesn't calculate the exact same scenarios and events at the exact same time each and every time you reload, thus giving you a variety of scorelines. I understand the point you are trying to make, but that isn't how football works, or any sport for that matter. There will always be an element of luck due to the infinite amount of ways a human can react to any given situation. If there weren't this element of luck or randomness involved then FM would undoubtedly become very predictable and easy to win

On the subject of difficulty; the fact that people can get crap teams to the top in such a short space of time tells me that if anything FM (hailed as a simulation of real football) is too easy. If it were actually realistic most of you would spend your entire LLM careers stuck in the lower leagues. How much easier do you want it exactly? Should there be an option to make good form last forever? Should bad runs of form be eliminated altogether?

Certainly nobody would expect the results to totally replicate each other - but seriously, a SEVEN goal difference between results as a result of factors extraneous to the tactical setup and team talks? That's unreasonably high IMO.

A little point for Calvincito. It's HER post not 'his'!!

Oh, pardon me miss...! I will keep that in mind.

On Smurf's note: of course there must be luck and other unpredictable factors involved in a game of sports, but the total randomness of both results and stats are a bit ridiculous. I'd be ok with somewhat similar stats and results, say one team winning 9 out of the 12 matches, and loosing/drawing 3. Hence, I was the favourite to win this particular match.

The danger is that with such a huge variation in goals with no change in tactics, etc, people will begin to question whether the slider positions actually make any difference to how the game plays. One is getting close to random predetermined results here. If that is the case then there's no point in trying to fine tune tactics, etc - you might just as well do the digital equivalent of rolling a dice or blindly sticking a pin in.

I take it that the above is not, in fact, the case, but you begin to wonder...

Had another read through the TT&F and this time used the excel sheet which suggests slider settings for the formation you wish to play. Keeping at least two things consistent (first 11 and formation, 532, I went ahead and modified individual instructions).

Away to Arsenal. First attempt, lost 4nil They totally dominated my team and it should have been 5nil but for the saviour of an offside. Reloaded, tweaked a couple of things, 4nil down by half-time At least the complete mauling is consistent.

The game is extremely easy off the field on a macro level, nobody has any trouble assembling better players then they should probably get. It's extremely difficult on the micro level of individual matches. Personally I far prefer the macro game to the micro game, so I'd like this to be reversed. Although ideally, of course, it would be perfectly balanced for both

Yeah, that's true Sports... I have no problem getting a great squad together. It's the tactical side we are talking about. I read somewhere about a gamer trying to manage Internazionale in Serie A, and not being able to comfortly play Lecce at home. And something told me he's not a novice to the FM/CM-scene. I feel the same thing: me playing a game at home against a weaker side means I don't dare to look away. I really hope SI pays attention to the massive dissatisfaction with the tactical part of the game and comes through with an enhanced product. Personally I love the series, have done so for many years, but this time around I just can't enjoy it, despite having success.

Tried out a 4231 tactic from one of the forum members (the tactic is pompey I think) and it seems a lot better than my efforts. I would hazard a guess and say its quite tough trying to hold out for a nil nil or play conservatively. The 4231 appears far more adventurous than my compact 532 but it has men forward/gets people forward and provides more passing options further up the field.

Tried variations of it away against Arsenal (who I believe are playing as the dominant force within FM for at least the first two seasons) and my team performed better, despite the dramatic change of formation. Five attempts, most of the time losing 2nil, one time Newcastle did manage to win, 2nil. I pulled the d-line back a little to stop Van Persie and Adebay getting so many breaks.

I hate downloading tactics

Maybe I can learn from it though

An example of the randomness you all speak about:

5th season in my Wolves game, I had built an established mid table premiership side, had a devestatingly bad run of form and was finding it impossible to win games, My next match was away to Liverpool (who were consecutive champions at this stage) I wasn't expecting to have any chance and by this point I had all but given up anyway and was just using all sorts of random formations just to see the effects.

I ended up using 'the pyramid' tactic (which comes with the tt&f download If im not mistaken.) for a couple of games before, drew to QPR (bottom of premiership) and won 4-0 agaisnt leyton orient in the league cup. I had nothing to lose as I came up against Liverpool so stuck with the tactic. The tactic looks like this:

ST ST ST ST ST

MC MC MC

DC DC

As you can see the tactic is ridiculous, especially when playing against, what was then, the best team in the league at their home ground.

The result ended up being 3-3 I was actually leading 3-2 for much of the 2nd half and for a minute or 2 i thought I might be in danger of winning a game. Sadly it was not to be but it proved to me that something is drastically wrong if i got anything out of that game with that formation against the defending champions. I resigned from Wolves soon after as it was evident that it was my only way out of the rut i was in.

Strange tactics would probably work in real life too but I doubt most managers would be brave enough to try them in big games. I always do well in the Champions League with Barcelona by playing a very high defensive line. Most of the matches end in 4-3 type of scores, but in real life I think we'd just get murdered.

That 'pyramid' tactic would have been totally normal in the 1930s, 40s, 50s. What you have there are 2 fullbacks, 3 halfbacks and 5 forwards. Everybody played that way then. Not so much 'strange' or 'ridiculous' but a little old fashioned!!