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Mitja
23-01-2008, 04:15
this thread is to discuss about match engine (ME). the goal is to put some constructive thoughts about ME, for the game to improve further, critisize what's wrong about it and give fresh ideas. I think ME is/ should be the heart of this game and it's strange that this community hasn't got a fair thread about ME. many ME ideas abd thoughts are in many different threads and I will also try to paste those into this one.


some of the features of match engine are:


- match: resoults, match events of any kind (fouls, cards, goals, off sides, player movement...)

- tactical aspect of ME (how is tactics reflecting in ME)

- interaction part in match engine (media talks, team talks reflecting in ME)

- technical problems in ME



one thing I would like to keep out of this thread is SOT/Goal ratio. even though it's important part of ME. there are millions of threads about that metter.

Mitja
23-01-2008, 04:15
this thread is to discuss about match engine (ME). the goal is to put some constructive thoughts about ME, for the game to improve further, critisize what's wrong about it and give fresh ideas. I think ME is/ should be the heart of this game and it's strange that this community hasn't got a fair thread about ME. many ME ideas abd thoughts are in many different threads and I will also try to paste those into this one.


some of the features of match engine are:


- match: resoults, match events of any kind (fouls, cards, goals, off sides, player movement...)

- tactical aspect of ME (how is tactics reflecting in ME)

- interaction part in match engine (media talks, team talks reflecting in ME)

- technical problems in ME



one thing I would like to keep out of this thread is SOT/Goal ratio. even though it's important part of ME. there are millions of threads about that metter.

Mitja
23-01-2008, 04:26
[QUOTE]of course they need new features, but why? to attract newers to buy this game. but it's far worse if they loose their long term clients isn't it?[QUOTE]


Originally posted by George Graham:

It is but this series needs an injection of something fresh.

For so long FM has stood head and shoulders above its competitors, not so much in terms of features but because it just did things better and in a more realistic way.

Now looking at what the CM guys are doing I see a lot more effort on their parts to innovate, whereas SI seem to be steeped in the days of CM3 where we would get excited about a little touch here or there, or a new option.

I know we get told that SI have a relatively small team, but I wish that rather than small changes that are spread pretty thin over the whole of FM, that SI would focus on really transforming in a big way one area of the game.

I know that to make an impressive list of new features for the game is important, but really the sum of these new features isnt to the extent that you feel your playing anything other than slightly updated or tweaked version. Theres just nothing that ever takes this game forward in anything other than teeny-tiny steps.

I appreciate that there is plenty going on under the bonnet as such- but with FMs competitors (well CM anyway) gaining ground but adding more exciting and interesting features than SI are coming up with then there will be a risk that people will jump ship.

This player bought CM08 (my first CM since SI left) as something to play before the patch, and I was pleasantly surprised. Its not perfect and just as infuriating as FM at times but nowhere near the trainwreck of CM5.

Mitja
23-01-2008, 04:29
also posted by George Graham: (hope he aprooves it)

Its not about making the game easier in terms of the challenge, its about making the tactical side more intuitive and more akin to real life- whereas currently its all about beating FM, not beating real life tactical situations.

FM is currently challenging for all the wrong reasons.

Mitja
23-01-2008, 04:32
posted by Arnoldzhu:

I'm not giving up to anything I mean I still think we need more efficient way and interface to setting training or tactics in the game but the game is actually much more complicated then it appears. I love this game and appreciate the efforts SI people made.

As to the match engine we can see it's really improving all through these years. The only factor I can come up with is the players' off-the-ball running. Players should move more frequently especially high working-rate midfield players, they should move up and down and from center to right/left according to where the ball in on the pitch when his teammate is controlling the ball.

Mitja
23-01-2008, 04:35
Originally posted by Cleon:

I think people need to take a little step back and make sure they actually understand the basics of the match engine first and foremost before anything else. Keep it all simple and you'll have success, find a system that works for you and what you are comfy with and not try and use what works for someone else.


Vril's response:

What kind of advice is this? It is very easy to say somebody he doesn't understand the game or match engine, when there is not much information about it, and no one can instruct what, when and why. I was trying to keep it simple, as you said, for over 9 season, playing couple of teams, and never found out what was working for me what wasn't. Every post-games conclusions seemed not to work in next few games. In this FM, there isn't any consistency or certainty of match engine principles (?). What was working for let say 3-4 games seemed not to work few next times as I said before. Of course you can't say me to stop playing at all or I am unable to understand the game. You can say 'try to understand game', but this is so general as it is useless and this is not the answer.

I am just trying to understand this game but it seems to be "Mission Impossible'.
Sorry for my bad English.

Mitja
23-01-2008, 04:42
Posted by Millie:

I do. A lot. Indeed, as part of another forum, the team working on tactic there have sent dozens of e-mails to SI complaining and offering criticisms as to where the game needs improvement. There are many problems with the game, many problems with the match engine.

My issue comes with the fact that the game isn't as unplayable and broken as everyone suggests. My other problem is that most of the moaners will not listen to another view point because we're "fan boys". An alternative is offered and this is "too complicated", "defending the game for the sake of it" ad nauseam.

This is a good game. It does have many faults though, and only and idiot would think it was flawless. But outside the match engine I think the game is fantastic - and in the match engine there are plenty of things people can do but don't to make the game winable and enjoyable.

I have no problem with people disliking the game. I can both see why they do and have pointed out the problems many times. This doesn't make me a blind sheep.

But then, things have to be black and white, don't they. God forbid that an opinion can be nuanced... Roll Eyes

Mitja
23-01-2008, 04:44
Posted by Powermonger:
I agree with the basic sentiment of this post but maybe not in the delivery, though frustration can do that to you. Smile

When I start ordering professional tactical training books off Amazon to try and attempt to understand a PC game, I know there is something wrong.

I hate the way tactics are currently configured in FM, I've disliked them since it was introduced in CM4. There is too much ambiguity in the slider settings and it's very hard to distinguish a link back to the 2D engine, making for a very frustrating experience. We went from a rather simple and understandable Wibble/Wobble tactical interface over to a convoluted system of 21 notched set of sliders that only the very astute can understand.

The problem I see now is that tactics and the match engine are so intertwined that SI have no intention of changing the way tactics are configured. They haven't touched tactics since CM4, 6 versions of no changes at all, only tweaks to the match engine.

If SI have no intention of altering or perfecting tactical settings, then they need to give us better tools and information to analyse them by, because having to rely on watching full matches all the time to try and understand where you are failing is time consuming and not enjoyable.

Again this is another area SI are reluctant to change, only things they've added since the days of CM3 in the way of information is the 2D match engine, it shouldn't stop there though. We need more statistics to help pinpoint problems better with an easier method to link back to our tactics.

ChampMan has introduced ProZone into their series which graphically helps to break down plays and player performance, and used intelligently with the right filtering of information, makes it much easier to pin point issues or areas of good performance.

I know arguments have been made in the past that it adds nothing to the game and is a 'mess' but the information it can supply a gamer is far superior to relying solely on watching 'lady beetles' running around the screen and trying to take everything in at once. I'd rather have the ability to view too much information then not be given enough, like we suffer from now.

As I've stated in previous posts, having access to more information is not about winning all the time, it's about enjoying the game more and developing a better understanding of the game as a whole, instead constantly getting frustrated by a engine and interface that just make the average gamers play time difficult and unrewarding.

Mitja
23-01-2008, 04:47
Posted by UEELfan:

Pleasantly pleased of how long discussion has been going over here without degenerating into inane rambling. Big thumbs up to every contributor here.

As for what's right and wrong in the game, I must agree that the main problem right now is that the MCs really don't perform that well defensively in a 442. A 451 improves it a bit, but it creates other issues.

However, the main problem with 08 is not the goal/shot ratio but rather the 'too many chances created'.

Really. It all goes down to the fact that too many chances are created. If those chances were cut before the oposition got into a position to make a shot, the game would improve a lot.

I'm also of those who take what is being shown in 2D with a pinch of salt, because I really do think that the engine sometimes can't represent what is happening behind the scenes (thus the clear cut chances missed, or the defenders making a step forward before starting to trail back after a long ball by the oposition). I'd also like to see the commentary inmatch improved. It's shocking how poor the game reads nowadays if you actually try to only use the commentary.

That being said, the game's got potential. Lots of it. Sort the excessive chances, sort the confidence module, sort the transfer module (the way the Artifitial Inteligence treats negotiation is beyond a joke)and you have a winner.

Heck, I've already put 11 seasons in it with all those niggling issues, imagine what I'll do when it gets sorted.

Mitja
23-01-2008, 04:57
posted by Mitja:

major thing that FM failed is that tactics are so much important then player ability.you frequantly get some C-league teams playing like Barca. 50 meter runs, perfect passes, screamers, holding the ball in last minutes...it's all normal no metter who do you play. on the other hand you have a feeling that your players don't have any brain. I know this is a game but c'mon where is some kind of human factor in this game? it's missing. I have a feeling that I'm dealing with machines not players.... run with that, creative freedom that...c'mon is that the way team are managed IRE??! not to mention how many tweaks AI is able to perform. yes real managers have some influence on the game they can change some instructions like screaming too their FB to stay back a little more and stuff. but defenetly human factor is missing.

I just don't have a feeling things are right. I can't compare FM to real life football anymore... too robotic. I mean ME has improved but then you have all this stupid little bugs like your MCs didn't hear of football and 1/1 bug and it all fails apart.

ok we wanted this game to become more like simulation (harder), but what has changed? face gen? tactics, training, interaction? things went so complecated. half of features don't work or only at 50%; preffered moves? you must be joking. movement/postioning? like watching 80 year old grand mothers prepering to die, but no problem for some regen with pace and dribling of 7 to make those 50 meter runs. the game just isn't the same for humans and AI.

what's the most sad thing about it all? it's still the best game of it0s kind on the market Confused

Mitja
23-01-2008, 04:57
posted by Mitja:

major thing that FM failed is that tactics are so much important then player ability.you frequantly get some C-league teams playing like Barca. 50 meter runs, perfect passes, screamers, holding the ball in last minutes...it's all normal no metter who do you play. on the other hand you have a feeling that your players don't have any brain. I know this is a game but c'mon where is some kind of human factor in this game? it's missing. I have a feeling that I'm dealing with machines not players.... run with that, creative freedom that...c'mon is that the way team are managed IRE??! not to mention how many tweaks AI is able to perform. yes real managers have some influence on the game they can change some instructions like screaming too their FB to stay back a little more and stuff. but defenetly human factor is missing.

I just don't have a feeling things are right. I can't compare FM to real life football anymore... too robotic. I mean ME has improved but then you have all this stupid little bugs like your MCs didn't hear of football and 1/1 bug and it all fails apart.

ok we wanted this game to become more like simulation (harder), but what has changed? face gen? tactics, training, interaction? things went so complecated. half of features don't work or only at 50%; preffered moves? you must be joking. movement/postioning? like watching 80 year old grand mothers prepering to die, but no problem for some regen with pace and dribling of 7 to make those 50 meter runs. the game just isn't the same for humans and AI.

what's the most sad thing about it all? it's still the best game of it0s kind on the market Confused

gunnerfan
23-01-2008, 05:37
I've always thought that the biggest challenge in making the match engine realistic lies in the realm of individual player decisions on the pitch, especially when defending. You tell your center back to mark tightly always, and he does, even when IRL he might not if the situation required him to drop off his mark in order to cover the first defender (and on those occasions, the AI more often than not creates scoring chances by putting the ball into the very space he would have covered IRL). If you tell him to tightly mark never, than he doesn't mark tightly in any situation. If you say mark tightly always, but then allow more creative freedom, you will see that creative freedom reflected on the attack, not on defense. Sigh.

One aspect of defending that is nowhere addressed is whether you defend goalside or ballside. IRL, that's a major consideration, because marking ballside, your goal is to deny the attacking player the ball, while playing goalside, your goal is containment. The decision you make is based on the attackers speed and skill level, as well as that of the defender.

I think a lot of the frustration we see regarding the match engine is really more about the tactical interface. Although we've made a lot of progress since the days of "wibble/wobble", there are still limitations.

Mitja
23-01-2008, 06:21
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by gunnerfan:
I've always thought that the biggest challenge in making the match engine realistic lies in the realm of individual player decisions on the pitch, especially when defending. You tell your center back to mark tightly always, and he does, even when IRL he might not if the situation required him to drop off his mark in order to cover the first defender (and on those occasions, the AI more often than not creates scoring chances by putting the ball into the very space he would have covered IRL). If you tell him to tightly mark never, than he doesn't mark tightly in any situation. If you say mark tightly always, but then allow more creative freedom, you will see that creative freedom reflected on the attack, not on defense. Sigh.

One aspect of defending that is nowhere addressed is whether you defend goalside or ballside. IRL, that's a major consideration, because marking ballside, your goal is to deny the attacking player the ball, while playing goalside, your goal is containment. The decision you make is based on the attackers speed and skill level, as well as that of the defender.

I think a lot of the frustration we see regarding the match engine is really more about the tactical interface. Although we've made a lot of progress since the days of "wibble/wobble", there are still limitations. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I agree and I think that more tactical instructions there are it's harder for ME (players) to decide, probably. maybe this types of games should make "thinking" that player's should know some things by defoult (how to mark fast striker and how strong and not fast, for example) due to not over-complicate things with too many tactical stuff. I hope this meant smth to you... http://community.sigames.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Ched
23-01-2008, 06:30
Personally, i feel that for FM09, they need to scrap whatever controls there are on one-on-one finishing success, and work on making defenders capable of stopping the laughable number of chances created.

Fix this and the number of moans on these boards would be halved.

Mitja
23-01-2008, 06:31
what SI could try to fix for 8.0.2 patch; most important:

-SOT/Goal Ratio. I believe (with many people claiming so) it's more got to do with poor defending ability of ME.

-also movement of attacking players isn't good (wingers and striker esp.)

-MC holding on the ball too much. again I believe it's got to do with poor movement of strikers and wingers. also with their poor decisioning.

-number of fouls (again mostly by MC holdin on the ball too long)

-too many off-sides. make player more awere of off-sides (both passing player and receiving player).

if they could fix that ME problems, the game would be very good.

gunnerfan
23-01-2008, 06:38
Mitja, I think the key is to identify tactical decisions the manager would make, as opposed to the tactical decisions a player would make. The manager would typically set the framework, and then the player would make on-field decisions. So, if I tell a center back to tightly mark the opposing striker ballside (to try to deny him the ball), that's a legitimate coaching decision, and it has implications for how the other defenders react. By overplaying the attacker, the center back is going to be out of position to recover if an attacker gets the ball in the space behind him, and so everyone else needs to be ready to react and cover.

Maybe a better approach from that of individual player instruction would be a group-based instruction against an opposing player. So, instead of the simplistic "tightly mark - always", you could choose between "deny ball" and "contain".

gunnerfan
23-01-2008, 06:41
Mitja, good point about players (not just MCs) holding the ball too long. Sometimes, it's worse in FM than it used to be when I was coaching my son's team. http://community.sigames.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_eek.gif

Themistofelis
23-01-2008, 06:41
The main problem as i understand it is that we don't have enough options on width per level, tempo per position , front runs , marking etc to master the capabilities of the match engine.
AI capitalizes on all match engine buffs while we can not (well we can but it took me 1 year to perfect a simple formation in fm07 and i don't plan to do it again for fm08 ).
How i can order my winger to enter the box from the side pull GK on the side of the post and then pass to the striker in the penalty area?
More control will be a nice addition i think.

Mitja
23-01-2008, 06:49
POSITIONIG/MOVEMENT



positioning and movemnet are maybe the worst things in this ME. also poor defending is reason why so many chances do happen now, in my opinoum. if SI could fix it many problems would disapear.

mostly that stands for midfielders, not helping each other so basicly we have 1-1 marking instead of team, zonal. defending shape is really bad. it's too streched in both sides- width and hight. the gaps between defense-midfield-forwards are enormious. players should stand more close to each other, that's why so many gaps happen. both MCs never hold the line no metter what closing instructions are. opponent MC can out play them with one-twos, or sneak behind whenever they want, leaving poor defenders to be out numbered constatly. how can that happen. maybe that kind of defense is played in conference, but I doubt.

also movement is very bad. the good thing about it is if it was better we wouldn't have 40+ shots per game, we would have 60+. what is it I don't like with movemnet.

- rarely see your striker or winger to come deep for the ball, IRE they most do it on regular basis. (no metter if it's one of the preffered moves or not). maybe this is due to forwards runs set to often (even though I trie it all, wingers are standing on the flanks anyway), but there are no instructions that tells a player to come for the pass. the resoult is your MC holding on the ball, making cyrcles and finaly loosing it.

but I must admit that I like the movement of full backs this year!! could be better...league 2 standard.


- rarely see your winger to cut inside. they just hold to thier wing. not even a conference standard. IRE we can see wingers doing all kind of movements; from cuting inside to going to whole other flank, comming deep, huging the line, going forward, to the box.... if we are lucky we could see our wingers in the box but that happens rarely no metter what instructins are. extremly poor!!


-free role not working on wingers. related to uper paragraph. but it works on strikers!! hmmm...


-MCs rarely come deep for the pass also. standing to close to each other. resoulting in lost posession often.

Mitja
23-01-2008, 07:46
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Themistofelis:
The main problem as i understand it is that we don't have enough options on width per level, tempo per position , front runs , marking etc to master the capabilities of the match engine.
AI capitalizes on all match engine buffs while we can not (well we can but it took me 1 year to perfect a simple formation in fm07 and i don't plan to do it again for fm08 ).
How i can order my winger to enter the box from the side pull GK on the side of the post and then pass to the striker in the penalty area?
More control will be a nice addition i think. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I agree with you. but I don't think more control-more tactical complexity would work well. as it obviously doesn't work with this amount of parameters, one over rides another and so on....

better solution would be to re write tactics and simplify them.

GillsMan
23-01-2008, 08:00
This thread (http://community.sigames.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/521102691/m/1342008273) contains lots of great, constructive ideas for the future of the ME.

sirdez24
23-01-2008, 08:15
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by gunnerfan:
I've always thought that the biggest challenge in making the match engine realistic lies in the realm of individual player decisions on the pitch, especially when defending. You tell your center back to mark tightly always, and he does, even when IRL he might not if the situation required him to drop off his mark in order to cover the first defender (and on those occasions, the AI more often than not creates scoring chances by putting the ball into the very space he would have covered IRL). If you tell him to tightly mark never, than he doesn't mark tightly in any situation. If you say mark tightly always, but then allow more creative freedom, you will see that creative freedom reflected on the attack, not on defense. Sigh.

One aspect of defending that is nowhere addressed is whether you defend goalside or ballside. IRL, that's a major consideration, because marking ballside, your goal is to deny the attacking player the ball, while playing goalside, your goal is containment. The decision you make is based on the attackers speed and skill level, as well as that of the defender. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Absolutely spot on - defenders are just so mind-numbingly stupid.

- Why is it such a challenge for your defenders to clear their lines? They just seem to clear it short distances to the AI time and again, which invites more pressure. It seems impossible to clear it up the pitch consistently.

- Why can't I tell me defender whether I want him ballside or goalside? They seem to get caught in a place between the two, particularly full-backs.

- Why is marking such a challenge? They seem to mark a specific spot, not a player, and they don't use any common sense. IRL if a striker beats a central defender, his partner will come across as a help defender. This doesn't happen in FM, and often the other centre-half stands and watches a striker go in on goal. This is especially apparent when playing against a lone striker, who runs down the middle.

- Why do full-acks always either close an opposition full-back down or go in board, but never actually defend the spot they are supposed to? I've lost count of how many times my full-back goes to close down someone he's not meant to, leaving the AI winger with time and space to cross.

In general, the first step for me is to overhaul the defensive side of the game, as right now defenders still don't have the bread and butter down pat, and still consistently make basic errors that would be out of place in an under 10s game.

Mitja
23-01-2008, 08:24
exellant post by hawshiels:

I think you have to draw distinctions between two things here:

1 - There are some of the sliders that are intended to cause effects in the match engine, but have strange results. Some of these are not working quite correctly, but I expect that SI will further tweak the engine to get this right over time. Some are frustrating, sure, but at least you can see that they try to do what they say on the tin.

2 - There are some of the sliders that probably do exactly what SI wanted them to do, but are not described very well in the manual. Don't get me wrong, the manual explains very well what each of these sliders does and if you were trying to write a football dictionary, it works very well. What it doesn't do however is to explain in any detail. I'll give you an example. Check out the descriptions of "Playmaker". It's absolutely correct of course, but what does it mean? Another example is "Creative Freedom". What the manual gives is an excellent description of what this means but it doesn't really tell us what it does. You see the problem is that we ned to be able to understand under what circumstances "players occassionally ignore your tactical instructions" and how to determine what are the key areas of "technical prowess" of the players.

What the manual/engine/tactics is lacking is an effective way to communicate clearly what you want the players to do under certain circumstances. I know we've argued the whole "with ball" and "without ball" thing to death (and I don't expect or really want this back), but I think the reason people liked it was because it was clear.

I actually prefer the direction of the tactics better now but would like it to be simplified. But as I've already said (maybe even on this thread), this does not mean reducing the number of tactical options. It just means that I'd like a clear means of translating what I want to do onto the pitch.

I feel at the moment that I can get individual sliders to do roughly what I want, but I have to make compromises all over because of the effect that one slider has on another (e.g. Mentality, Creative Freedom, Closing down). And then of course I have to try to work out what attributes are key in each match engine decision. Again I know what attributes should be taken into account, but I don't know what opinions SI had when implementing these so I don't know the strength of each one. It's a bit like trying to use Spanish to explain to my team (who all speak French) what I want them to do. I know exactly what I want to say, but I don't have the necessary vocabulary to achieve it.

Mitja
23-01-2008, 08:30
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by GillsMan:
This thread (http://community.sigames.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/521102691/m/1342008273) contains lots of great, constructive ideas for the future of the ME. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

sorry for missing that thread. I will copy this link to your's and write further to your's

Mitja
23-01-2008, 08:55
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Mitja:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by GillsMan:
This thread (http://community.sigames.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/521102691/m/1342008273) contains lots of great, constructive ideas for the future of the ME. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

sorry for missing that thread. I will copy this link to your's and write further to your's </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

even though your thread is more like wishlist thread not discussion. I changed my mind http://community.sigames.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Mitja
23-01-2008, 10:07
some hypothetical thoughts about mentality.



-WHAT IS MENTALITY?

it's team's style of play -&gt; attacking and defending. so more attacking this style is more players will perticipate (have attacking duties) when the team is in ball possesion. via versa more defensive mentality is more players will defend (have defensive duties) while possesion is lost.

mentality is also balance between defending and attacking . with how many players a team attacks/defends.

all that (mentality) should be understanded as a tendency . players try to perform their duties. it's not allways possibile as human factor is present. that's why there are players better in defending and those who prefer attacking duties.



-what it does?

most obvious segment of mentality is transforming of defending and attacking shape. more attacking tactics is more players will leave their defoult position in formation. they will also do it more often. via versa defensive tactics try their formations not to get too streched by attacking moves as they leave space for opposition to use. that is a forward runs segment of tactics.

mentality in my opinoum shouln't have influence on how quick the ball gets forward as it does now in FM. passing style and tempo should influence that.



-what are attacking/defensive duties?

the most attacking tactic is one in which all 10 (11) players attack equaly and they think only about attacking/moving forward. of course such a tactic (gung ho) isn't possibile to play all the time. that's why there are duties. basic distinction would be that defenders defend and attackers attack. but in football all players do both. not nacessery at same intensity.

it means that duty is an instruction. more defensive it is less player has to bother with attacking moves (dribling, creating chances, going forward, shooting...). but again it is a tendency. even centre back have their attacking duties and strikers defensive duties.

tactical duties/instructions are (few of many): stay back/hold your position (more often), go forward (more often), try through balls, drible, hug line, double mark opponent, come deep, back off (easy tackle) opponent, playmaker, target man roles...



nice suggestion would be that those prefered moves could become player duties/instructions.

another thing that needs changing is forward runs. they are allready given by mentality; team mentality. so we wouldn't have to use forward runs slider anymore, only mentality. if we wanted our DC to stay back we would just tick "stay back" instruction, for example.

I understand player mentality as " positional height on set position ". example; giving your MC the most attacking mentality he becomes smth like 2nd striker, or "very attacking attacking midfielder", when team is in ball posession. via versa giving him the most defensive mentality he acts more like "very defensive DM", when team is without the ball. also I would change the number of notches on player mentality.



maybe the most significant thing about team and player mentality is that they are not the same. it also means they shouldn't over-write each other. it also means that, more defensive team mentality is, more defensive duties/ more players with dfensive duties should be present. and via versa.

Mitja
23-01-2008, 10:30
posted by tigerhrrrrr:

The problem as I see it is:
To get a player to perform a tactical instruction you have to adjust the sliders in the correct combinations, agreed?. Though those have been analysed in T&TF some will contradict each other though the IRL those player instructions wouldnt. I think each player should have a set of routines which are selected by drop down menu and when that is done the slider move to automatic positions to meet that instruction taking into account the players position on the field. Then the players stats & PPM's decide how well the instruction is executed. If SI cant do that it is surely an admission that the slider system is faulty?

The tactical "fun" of FM should be giving the right general instructions to players (IRL eg "you full back, overlap the winger, but if we lose position get back quick & tuck in") not tweaking sliders & trying to achieve the result desired.

sacripante
23-01-2008, 11:17
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Mitja:
some hypothetical thoughts about mentality.



-WHAT IS MENTALITY?

. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I agree almost all u told here, but there is something to add IMO:
- when a team play defensively, their players should avoid to take risks; so when near they own area with opponents closing down, kick the ball away or however try a long ball instead than try a dribbling (--&gt; dont risk to lose ball conceding a easy chance)
- obivously when a team play with attacking mentality, their players should try to retain the ball even when opponents are closing down.

Sorry for my english

Mitja
23-01-2008, 14:09
FORMATION;DEFENSIVE SHAPE AND MOVEMENT

defensive and attacking shapes of formations could actually be different. sometimes it's hard to say what formation the team is playing, IRE. due to free roles, unpredictable movements, tactical discipline, human factor and def/att shapes of formation.

as it is now, FM formation aspect is very old and will need to change. some other games are way ahead on this metter. (as I read, becouse I didn't play them, only PES). I think in FIFA you can choose defensive and attacking formation (4-5-1, 4-3-3; 4-4-2, 2-4-4). good solution but not perfect.

I think when defending, team is suposed to know it's formation. also it is important to stay in it and hold it. on the other hand when attacking the team needs to be unpredictable. it means that attacking shape isn't so defined, due to constant movement of players. of couse there are teams who play with more tactical discipline, more in shape so they can return easily to defensive formation/shape. but more dangerous it wants to be, more movement and risk is needed. both positioning and movement is maybe my biggest resentment to FM for years.

managers devote great attention to this metter. quick transformation from narrow and compact defensive shape to attacking positions. it's all about movement.



DEFENSIVE FORMATION/SHAPE


WHAT IS IT?

it's just the shape taken by players to defend when the ball isn't in posession.

4-4-2, 5-3-2, 4-1-4-1. any known formation.

important things are marking systems, defensive line, width, presing styles...



Football Manager:

when the formation is choosen you set both att/def shapes of it. this needs to be separated. in my opinoum you should be able to choose your defensive formation. attacking formation should be based on mentality, tactical discipline (how much you want your players to leave their postitions, given individualy) and movement of players.

my proof is that there are not 2 teams who play flat 4-4-2 exatcly the same. their defensive shapes are pretty much the same but attacking shapes are different. it would be much easier to me if I could draw, but I'll put it in numbers.

so 4-4-2 is defensive formation. attacking formation could be anything from 4-4-2, 2-4-4, 2-2-2-2-2, 2-4-2-2 any combination even 3-3-4 if you want. all this is a tendency depending on many factors (mentality, movement...)



ATTACKING TRANSORMATION


this is where things should change the most. I know we have arrows and barrows and sarrows. problem is that this kind of movement is too strict and not suficient. anyone who played old CMs remebers you could choose def/att positioning of your players in all 3 (was it even 5?) of the pitch (own area, centre and opponent area).

and that could be very interesting solution to the movement of players. so it's movement instead of only positioning as it was back then. you should be able to define your player's movement for each part of the field. with arrows. not just 1 arrow. it's smth like those arrows on PES, but for every part of the pitch. it's important becouse you might want your players to move diffrently in thier own half or near opponent goal. of course players shouldn't follow your movement instructions to blindly. so again it should be understanded more like tendency.

in this way we should be able to play our pacey right winger on the flank, triyng to cross or come into box. much like wingers play now on FM. let's say arrow(s) in the final third of the pitch would look like this:

l
l
l
M R
l
l
l

this should meen his mein movement is down the line. he should be allowed to come deeper for the ball or go forward. team mentality should define how often he should go forward.



I would like my right footed left winger to act like one. so I should be able to define his movement with arrows like this:


M L --&gt;
l
l
l

this means that his movement should be oriented toward more central positions (cutting inside) and that I want him to come deep more often. of course it doesn't meen that's he shouldn't get forward when apropriate.


mentality is very important factor. team mentality should define how much/ how often you want your players to go forward. tactical discipline (maybe better expression would be how much free role you give to a player, so free role slider) should define how often player leaves his defoult position and moves around.

Arnoldzhu
23-01-2008, 17:42
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">When I start ordering professional tactical training books off Amazon to try and attempt to understand a PC game, I know there is something wrong. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
http://community.sigames.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif I did do that kind of thing too. Haha.

Well, thanx Mitja and I'm coming here.

First I want to be nice and fair to say again that this is a good game and apparently has its own advantage comparing to other football managing games on the market. And we appreciate the efforts SI made all through these years and now I'm not young anymore either. But since other games are still chasing FM series and they really did a lot of nice hard work I believe, so we should not loose our concentration on continuously improving the game (FM series).

As many wise guy points out, the ME (match engine) is the heart of the football game. I can see some obvious progress like: in previous version (I don't remember which one maybe fm2006) wingers always take the ball to the byline and make crosses but mostly deflected by defender to become a corner; then in the later version wingers' movement has improved they seem more intelligent and now in FM 2008 we can see the wingers are good on deciding when to dribble or cross or pass back or shoot. And the strikers are also much better cos' previously they just shoot and rarely make crosses to other teammate with better chance. And in 8.0 I also remember some nice dribbles wingers make that they use fake moves and tricks to shake defenders behind by sudden accelerating. But in 8.0.1 I don't see that again or not so beautiful and realistic. Maybe it's that SI tweak the effect of acceleration down too much. And I'm always suspicious that the 8.0 and 8.0.1 are based on different match engine system, also to 7.0 and 7.0.1. If I'm right SI might be mad at me and if I'm wrong it might be because of the too much difference between patch *.0.1 to *.0. http://community.sigames.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif Hehe

Arnoldzhu
23-01-2008, 18:18
After thinking all these days I decide not to concentrate on some certain behaviour of the players which the match engine provides. I think maybe it's like this (I don't know if I'm right or you would agree with me):

1. The game is well-orgainzied and possess the best database in the world. So many attributes to a player, a staff, a club, a competition and others.

2. When the game starts large amount of statistics will be generated mostly by the ME (match engine). Most importantly the final result of matches, the shot on target of both team, the possession, the fouls, the runs, key passess, key interceptions. All these stats are generated by the ME. And these stats must be "in line with real world data" as we can see in the changelist. And to achieve that goal match engine must be tuned and tweaked because it is the only one who generates all these stats. It's so crucial and core part of the game.

3. So that's why I understand it's not an easy job for SI, because we're still complaining about so much. Ok, to sum up, I feel in this way, I'm not asking to let us create some tactic that is stable and consistant and be winning matches all along. I mean it's ok if I lose, as long as I can see the players do their best on the pitch and they make some nice individual and teamwork moves and I feel I'm like watching a real match. The game has to be enjoyable and that's dependant on how much realism it has when watching the 2d match. I mean maybe I don't understand match engine well and I don't make good tactics and my team loses, it's ok but the match has to look real on 2d screen. Irl when you watch the match on TV you can always see players helping each other, when a player has the ball the other players will positively move to provide passing options and attacking spaces options. I hope you get what I mean.

I always watch videos of real life football matches when playing FM after I click "Continue" button. http://community.sigames.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif There's still much spaces to improve!!!

Kriss
24-01-2008, 00:19
It's nice to have my gut feeling confirmed by so many obviously savvy people.

Defender intelligence, or rather the complete lack of it seems to me to be the root cause of most current problems in the ME.

AM's and FC's are made to look good because defenders lack even a shred of the decision making common to their rl counterparts.
This also contributes to the super keeper myth, because keepers are having to make far more saves than they should due to defender incompetence.

Mitja
24-01-2008, 02:13
it's strange to see how many different feelings abouth this game there are. many people claiming it's the best you can get and others who quit playing it. that's really weird to me. I'm defenetly feel this game is un-playable. especially if you're watching your games on full mode. I'm not going to reapeat why I feel so. but the feeling that everything is so random in this game is maybe the strongest. some reallity factor is missing. you loose against some C-league club in one match and then you beat Chalsea awey. and so on. that's the feeling I get reading people's posts here as I quit playing this game and never got into it. (half a season is what I played).

I have a feeling that tactics are too important now. player does too much what he is said. on the other hand there is not much what you could say to him. together with poor inteligence of players (ME). put this together with all the features that have influence on match (ME) and you get one big messi computor game, unfortunatlly. the only way out as I can see is to re-make this whole aspect of the game. simplicity and player (pre-set) inteligence is the key.


PS what I mean by pre set inteligence; defender should know how to mark slow but tall striker and how to mark fast striker. so all you would have to so is to warn your defender what type of striker he will be dealing with.

Mitja
24-01-2008, 02:19
posted by hexus:

I saw this topic and felt compelled to contribute. I've played very game in the CM/FM series and have to say features wise, FM08 is the best yet. I love the little extras in the commentry like "Sam Alladyce in the Stands today" to add to transfer speculation. The tactics ae simple and easy to set up, training is good, transfers etc, etc.

All that aside, i am having a horrendous time with my Spurs team. Currently lying 19th in the Prem after 12 games, i can't seem to get a win from anywhere. I have no idea where i'm going wrong. It's getting to point where i'm just gonna write it off until the next patch.

At first i thought i brough too much upheaval to the team but bringing in too many new coaches at the start of the season, so i started a new game and just brought in 1 coach, Stefano Eranio as my defence coach, and promoted one of my Youth Team coaches. I only brought in two players, Lorik Cana as a midfield hardman, and Roman Riquelme to bolster the midfield. Still no luck.

I tried a number of tactics, one which got me beaten by least amount goals i've come across was Croats 4-2-3-1. I even sometimes got the occasional win.

Then i thought, my tactics are wrong, so i looked slowed the matches down, watched on extended highlights and started playing more defensively. Still losing.
I started looking at my opponents tactics and tried to counter them by stifling the space opponents attackers had. Still getting smashed.

The final straw really came when i was playing away against Everton and total hammered them without scoring. By the 80th minute i'd 20 shots, 14 on target without scoring, game poised at 0-0. On comes James Vaughan - bang 1-0 Everton. Two minutes later 2-0 Everton.

Clearly i have no idea what is going on, and where i'm going wrong. I've started numerous new games and used tactics people claim to have had success with, i've tried simplifying, i've tried complicating.

NOTHING WORKS!!!!

Still i will carry on. But clearly i'm not the only one who thinks there's something going on with the AI that's just unbalanced.
I don't want an easy game, but i don't want a game which is like getting beaten with a stick. At the moment I find the in bits in between matches like transfers and training are more fun then matched and thats just simply wrong.

George Graham
24-01-2008, 02:37
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Kriss:
It's nice to have my gut feeling confirmed by so many obviously savvy people.

Defender intelligence, or rather the complete lack of it seems to me to be the root cause of most current problems in the ME.

AM's and FC's are made to look good because defenders lack even a shred of the decision making common to their rl counterparts.
This also contributes to the super keeper myth, because keepers are having to make far more saves than they should due to defender incompetence. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Ive been saying this all along (as I believe correctly or incorrectly that SI chose to nerf finishing rather than focus on sorting out defending which was not entirely fixed by the closing down fix).

Defenders just dont act as if they are solid objects.

They (and midfielders too) constantly fail to cut off passing avenues, track runs, block runs, man mark players (is clever movement really portrayed by the defender running away from his marker for no reason?!), even hold a line (no matter what you put in your tactics one player will always step out of position and leave a gap or stay deep and play players onside) and any winger with pace can ping crosses in for fun as fullbacks just may as well not be there (which is why Ive switched to 3 at the back and just gone hell for leather).

Plus the way the ME is setup means a wide game is tantamount to suicide due to the gaps left- yet if your opponent has wide wingers you have to play wide or your DR/DL will not get close to them.

Apart from the lack of player intelligence in general (a good example is having to make sure their are options for your DM to pass to otherwise he loses the ball- erm howabout my players realise this and arent so static?) is the longterm issue that even though the tactical interface is complicated it is not sophisticated. We cannot have differing widths- so say we want a 5 man expansive mifield, we cannot at the same time have our fullbacks tucking in.

Playing with slowish defenders is almost impossible- I managed to sign John Terry and Ledley King for L1 Burnley, both have everything except blistering pace (King still had 11 pace) and stamina but all their mental and technical attributes were still there.

Good enough for L1 you would think, if I played deep and with a quick DM, DR, DL? Nah, they got caned every game and in the end I just put in my two quickest DCs who were much more effective.

Mitja
24-01-2008, 03:22
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by George Graham:
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Kriss:

Playing with slowish defenders is almost impossible- I managed to sign John Terry and Ledley King for L1 Burnley, both have everything except blistering pace (King still had 11 pace) and stamina but all their mental and technical attributes were still there.

Good enough for L1 you would think, if I played deep and with a quick DM, DR, DL? Nah, they got caned every game and in the end I just put in my two quickest DCs who were much more effective. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

isn't that pathetic?

Kriss
24-01-2008, 04:04
Not pathetic, just wrong, but being accusative doesn't get the problem solved.

These issues are now being addressed but tuning and testing the ME is a long and painful process.

SI don't cause these issues intentionally and because of the sometimes ludicrous complaints on here it takes time to syphon out the real from the imagined.

As I've said before you can't really give progress reports on ME developement, it's either in progress or done, no in betweens.

Mitja
24-01-2008, 04:12
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Kriss:
Not pathetic, just wrong, but being accusative doesn't get the problem solved.

These issues are now being addressed but tuning and testing the ME is a long and painful process.

SI don't cause these issues intentionally and because of the sometimes ludicrous complaints on here it takes time to syphon out the real from the imagined.

As I've said before you can't really give progress reports on ME developement, it's either in progress or done, no in betweens. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

what is real and what imagined? I remeber this

"A greatly improved match engine, once again utilizing the footballing brain of Ray Houghton and other tools used by real-life managers, to make the most accurate simulation of football in a computer game even more like-life than ever before. Oh, and the ability to change the pitch dimensions at the start of the season to suit your style of play better".

and we get this. untested -waitnig- for- the- next- patch- ME. sorry for being acusative.

Ched
24-01-2008, 04:16
Am i the only person who thought that the FM07 ME was more than acceptable?

It was possible to create consistent tactics that didn't need tweaking every 3 games.

Strikers scored one-on-ones

etc etc etc

Basically i'm not sure why they changed it to the extent that they did (any chance of an SI word on this?)

Kriss
24-01-2008, 04:53
One reason was to try improving the things in the 07 engine which people complained about, and they did complain, and there was scope for improvement.

Also the the ME is always being worked on, trying for more realism and adding extras like the new goal celebrations.

As we've seen it can go wrong and trying to get it right in a hurry is almost certain to lead to different problems.

It's damned annoying but SI will get there in the end.

GillsMan
24-01-2008, 05:14
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Mitja:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Mitja:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by GillsMan:
This thread (http://community.sigames.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/521102691/m/1342008273) contains lots of great, constructive ideas for the future of the ME. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

sorry for missing that thread. I will copy this link to your's and write further to your's </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

even though your thread is more like wishlist thread not discussion. I changed my mind http://community.sigames.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
I wasn't suggesting the wishlist thread should replace this one. Just that there were some good ideas in there which should be taken into account in this discussion. http://community.sigames.com/customicons/icon14.gif

Hawshiels
24-01-2008, 05:16
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Ched:
Am i the only person who thought that the FM07 ME was more than acceptable?

It was possible to create consistent tactics that didn't need tweaking every 3 games.

Strikers scored one-on-ones

etc etc etc

Basically i'm not sure why they changed it to the extent that they did (any chance of an SI word on this?) </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

The match stats in FM07 were more acceptable - yes, but the match engine wasn't.

I agree that the current version is really frustrating and I've posted many times about my thoughts on this. However, don't you also think that the games now look more "real" than they did in FM07?

I think the movement (offensively) is much more realistic in FM08 and it now looks more like the flow of a game. Perhaps I am being overly optimistic about this, but I think that with a bit more attention given to the positioning, marking and tackling, we could have something that works really well. [Then of course we need more tactical options to allow us to use these more effectively]

Only SI know how close they are to this and how much further development is involved to achieve this, but despite my frustrations I do think they are on the right lines.

I also believe that it is because of the increased attention to the attacking behaviour, that we have so many shots on goal which is why SI have had to tone down the effectiveness of finishing and composure to compensate for this - otherwise we'd have games finishing 23-17.

The current tactics system is actually too simple. It is too simple in that there are not enough options to achieve what you want to. This makes attacking quite straight forward because the options in attack are far fewer than when you are operating defensively. The positioning by players (including one-twos) offensively in FM08 is pretty good I think. But take a moment to pause your game when defending and you'll see just how poor the positioning of players is. And they are also ineffective in the tackle. Has dribbling perhaps been too heavily weighted in this version?

Someone earler mentioned the lack of effectiveness of full-backs. This is true and it is why wingers are now so effective in the game. But SI have achieved big differences in the quality of the engine in the past by tweaking things here and there so I don't believe that this should be a major problem to change. But not being very technical myself, I'm not sure.

This lack of "defensive intelligence" from the players is causing me to change the formations and tactics more than in previous versions which is no problem as a workaround. But the formation should be able to be consistent while making changes to the tactics (sliders or whatever) to achieve the desired effects for individual games.

As for SIs response to this thread ...... Miles and a few others have been involved in some of these discussions recently and it's good to hear from them. Although we'd all like to hear from them more often, I'd personally settle for 2 things in the meantime.

- Get the best possible quality into the patch (which I'm sure they are doing already)
- Let us know the proposed changes to make the forums a more hospitable place to come and exchange views. Afterall, some of the nonsense on these forums is cited as the reason why SI don't get involved as much. Then we can all get back to having some really good debate about some of these issues- with SI's involvement.

Arnoldzhu
24-01-2008, 05:32
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">SI don't cause these issues intentionally and because of the sometimes ludicrous complaints on here it takes time to syphon out the real from the imagined. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I agree. I mean the ME in 8.0 is more like-life though it has bugs of course but I think maybe it was tweaked too much, so that I don't see those good realist movements anymore in 8.0.1.
In 8.0 you can see your forwards receive the high ball with good anticipation and be in good position to hold back his marker to control the ball, or he can head the ball aside to the following-up wingers just like irl how ManUtd plays. Even Saha and Rooney can hold back defenders to jump to head the ball to wings for Giggs or Ronaldo to receive and cross. Don't need to debate or argue I just watched the videos today again and that's what realistic football and in 8.0.1 I don't see my forwards winning any headers while in 8.0 they did very well in controlling the ball. To confirm that I can even do test again with 8.0 versus 8.0.1 and if that's true I think SI still needs to improve or recover some original good parameters in the ME.

As Mitja said there would so much feeling about the game so I'd like to say that at least there's one thing in common sense that tactics should influence much less on the players when it comes to some basic situations and basic knowledge of playing football. I mean no matter what tactics is given to players they should know what and how to do under some certain circumstances cos' they're professional football players. It's just like the language we are using, whatever language there's always language first and then people can summary out some grammar. But the language(football) itself is always fluent and alive, the grammar(tactics) is just some rigid and stiff rules.

mantis616
24-01-2008, 06:20
Let's see. i've started a game with barca, using the match engine and playing with my tactic which i've been using since fm06, with little tweaks to fit the new games. It was just horrible. I mean, not at all even average. I was even losing to most average teams at home. Players usually did the contrary to what i told them to do. Ratings, statistics and everything else sucked for a long time.

Well, then i quit the game and decided to begin the season again with barca and same tactic again. But this time without the match engine, only commentary. Suddenly everything turned out to be amazing. I won all the matches which the team deserved. My player's ratings, assists, shots on goals,tacklings, all were more realistic. Team was following the orders. Doing what i told them through the tactic. Since then i never use match engine. I know some issues have been fixed with the patch. But still i hear too many complaints about the ME. And don't know what 8.0.2 or what 8.0.x will bring.

Mitja
24-01-2008, 06:24
my opinoum on 7.0.2 ME is that it was too easy. maybe it was fun, but not to me. unrealistic for sure. I'm not saying 8.0.1 is too hard, it's too stup.. I'm sorry I just can't find better word or more suitable.

I must agree everything what Arnoldzhu (best post here, by far http://community.sigames.com/customicons/icon14.gif) said about 8.0. I was quite suprised with it. some things really looked like in real life. unfortunatly had closing down bug, too many fouls, off sides and canceled goals. but 8.0 and 8.0.1 don't look like they have much incomon, if I remeber well.

Mitja
24-01-2008, 06:35
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by mantis616:
Let's see. i've started a game with barca, using the match engine and playing with my tactic which i've been using since fm06, with little tweaks to fit the new games. It was just horrible. I mean, not at all even average. I was even losing to most average teams at home. Players usually did the contrary to what i told them to do. Ratings, statistics and everything else sucked for a long time.

Well, then i quit the game and decided to begin the season again with barca and same tactic again. But this time without the match engine, only commentary. Suddenly everything turned out to be amazing. I won all the matches which the team deserved. My player's ratings, assists, shots on goals,tacklings, all were more realistic. Team was following the orders. Doing what i told them through the tactic. Since then i never use match engine. I know some issues have been fixed with the patch. But still i hear too many complaints about the ME. And don't know what 8.0.2 or what 8.0.x will bring. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>



wooow I was allway suspicious about that. I know this isn't the proof, but I also noticed that. feeling it's not the same when I'm watching the game or only on key hightlights. It's a feeling (suddenly posession changes, chances created by one side then turn to other, or there were 3 tackles by both side and million fouls in 20 minutes and all of the sudden there are 15 tackles made in 10 minutes or 10 off sides when watching and none after that...).

hey, but mantis played a season. can you give us some proof MANTIS?

I wonder if SI would respon.

mantis616
24-01-2008, 07:06
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">wooow I was allway suspicious about that. I know this isn't the proof, but I also noticed that. feeling it's not the same when I'm watching the game or only on key hightlights. It's a feeling (suddenly posession changes, chances created by one side then turn to other, or there were 3 tackles by both side and million fouls in 20 minutes and all of the sudden there are 15 tackles made in 10 minutes or 10 off sides when watching and none after that...).

hey, but mantis played a season. can you give us some proof MANTIS?

I wonder if SI would respon. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I'd be happy to share it but that was a month ago and now i play with A.C Milan. But i'm hell sure that anyone dares to try that(both playing with Me and Only Comm.) will realise the fact. I'm not saying the ME is worst, damn bad and not playable, as with 8.0.1 some issues have changed but it is also still far from being satisfying, when you know that there is a Only commentary chance to play the game, which sounds a lot better.

I don't know the technical matters much. So i might be also wrong on that. That if when playing in Only Commentary mode, ME still works and we only see words from it or that they're totally different. Right now they sound totally different to me and Only Comm. sounds a lot better to enjoy the game as it produces much reality and makes me feel more and more into a Real Manager Simulation. Hope SI will comment on this.

Hawshiels
24-01-2008, 07:39
I don't think SI will comment on this because they've already done so many times before. The match engine is exactly the same, regardless of whether you use commentary only or watch the full match.

The reason I know this is because it is well documented now how the match day works.

Firstly, as soon as you press the play button, the match has already been played. Afterall, how can you watch highlights if it hasn't?

Then, each time you make changes to the tactics during the game (including subs, etc), the match engine is run from this point onwards before you get to see any more highlights. This is how it goes on until the end of the game. Actually I can't remember if it only works it out half by half but that is largely irrelevant.

So, as you can see, it doesn't matter how you choose to watch the highlights of the game, we've already been told many times before that it doesn't matter.

The only time it does matter is if you choose to go on holiday because then your assistant chooses who is in the various positions, tactics, and substitutions - unless otherwise specified.

Hope this helps clarify this issue a little for you.

What is really important is that you carefully consider your posts before jumping to conclusions. There are many well documented reasons why teams can suddenly go from losing to winning streaks seemingly overnight. Some of these reasons we can argue about in terms of their relation to reality (i.e. how important morale actually does affect players in real life compared to in the game, weather conditions suddenly making short passing games impossible and hence tactics not working during the winter months, buying "better" players and finding that the team does not do as well - usually because this player has overall higher CA, but not as good attributes in the key areas).

I have my own opinions on the weightings of these these issues and needless to say I disagree with some of them in the way they are implemented in the game, but if you appreciate that these things do affect your team, you learn to deal with them accordingly.

Mitja
24-01-2008, 08:32
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Hawshiels:
I don't think SI will comment on this because they've already done so many times before. The match engine is exactly the same, regardless of whether you use commentary only or watch the full match.

The reason I know this is because it is well documented now how the match day works.

Firstly, as soon as you press the play button, the match has already been played. Afterall, how can you watch highlights if it hasn't?

Then, each time you make changes to the tactics during the game (including subs, etc), the match engine is run from this point onwards before you get to see any more highlights. This is how it goes on until the end of the game. Actually I can't remember if it only works it out half by half but that is largely irrelevant.

So, as you can see, it doesn't matter how you choose to watch the highlights of the game, we've already been told many times before that it doesn't matter.

The only time it does matter is if you choose to go on holiday because then your assistant chooses who is in the various positions, tactics, and substitutions - unless otherwise specified.

Hope this helps clarify this issue a little for you.

What is really important is that you carefully consider your posts before jumping to conclusions. There are many well documented reasons why teams can suddenly go from losing to winning streaks seemingly overnight. Some of these reasons we can argue about in terms of their relation to reality (i.e. how important morale actually does affect players in real life compared to in the game, weather conditions suddenly making short passing games impossible and hence tactics not working during the winter months, buying "better" players and finding that the team does not do as well - usually because this player has overall higher CA, but not as good attributes in the key areas).

I have my own opinions on the weightings of these these issues and needless to say I disagree with some of them in the way they are implemented in the game, but if you appreciate that these things do affect your team, you learn to deal with them accordingly. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>



I think what mantis said is very imoprtant and he has every right to say what he wants. I noticed that too. as I said 10 off sides in 20 minutes and none after that, 3 tackles and then suddenly 15. it might be a coincidence, but this is happening to me all the time. to go further on that metter, check out the amount of off sides on your games and then check out it's number on other matches. I don't take things for granted and I believe only what I see, more than what I read.

Mitja
24-01-2008, 08:33
forgot to say I was playing on 1st beta, my last game.

Mitja
24-01-2008, 08:57
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Arnoldzhu:

so I'd like to say that at least there's one thing in common sense that tactics should influence much less on the players when it comes to some basic situations and basic knowledge of playing football. I mean no matter what tactics is given to players they should know what and how to do under some certain circumstances cos' they're professional football players. It's just like the language we are using, whatever language there's always language first and then people can summary out some grammar. But the language(football) itself is always fluent and alive, the grammar(tactics) is just some rigid and stiff rules. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>


that's the whole point. players play football not managers. I don't know maybe it's up to some 10-20% what a really good manager can do. but not only with tactics; good atmosphere- man mangment, mental preperation- motivating, building a team. when kick off starts it's all up to the players. I can remember anly 2 great examples of "managerial tryumph"; otto rehagehl when Greece won Euro and Porto (CL) under mourinho. there were some others, surely...

Genuine_quality
24-01-2008, 09:42
http://community.sigames.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

Its amazing that after many versions of the game, there has still never been an answer for constantly missing apparently simple one on ones in ratio to utterly impossible long shots etc, its always some ambiguous crap about tactics making your strikers miss one on ones duh

Hawshiels
24-01-2008, 10:31
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Genuine_quality:
http://community.sigames.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

Its amazing that after many versions of the game, there has still never been an answer for constantly missing apparently simple one on ones in ratio to utterly impossible long shots etc, its always some ambiguous crap about tactics making your strikers miss one on ones duh </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I can confirm that tactics can reduce the number of shots at goal and in doing so improve the shots/goal ratio. There are various ways you can do this to ensure that your players get into better positions before shooting. So tactics do help to some degree.

However, it is understandable that SI had to reduce the effectiveness of strikers in this version, otherwise scores would be 23-19 or thereabouts. The problem appears to me to be caused as a result of improvements in the attacking behaviour and positions of attacking players, but a relatively ineffective defensive counter measure. SI are also playing the game and they'll have noticed this too, so I'd expect a few changes in the forthcoming patch and then further improvements for the next release.

If you are having lots of shots on goal with little success, I can suggest that your tactics will currently include all or some of the following:

- fast'ish tempo
- short'ish passing
- medium/high creative freedom
- lots of width
- counter attacking

If your tactics do include the above, it is encouraging this shooting behaviour. Of course in real life, this would not necessarily be the case, but in the game, this does add up to a poor shots/goal ratio.

So, either change the tactics, or wait until a new patch comes out that hopefully tweaks some of these issues in the match engine.

And before I get flamed (I think that's the word people use), I am not defending the match engine, I am just saying that you can use tactics to overcome this problem a little which should hopefully help people enjoy it more in the meantime.

leftback in the changing room
24-01-2008, 11:30
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Mitja:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Hawshiels:
&lt;Snipped Hawshiels accurately describing the workings of the ME&gt; </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I think what mantis said is very imoprtant and he has every right to say what he wants. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Even if he is making an assumption about the way the game works that is wrong, wrong and wrong?

When you start the game, it has already been played out to the end of the first half. The game assumes that YOU the player will not make a change. Whereas the AI knows that it will go more defensive after 20 minutes to counteract your formation; that it will replace player X with player Y when player X gets injured on 33 minutes; and that it will score a breakaway goal after 44 minutes.

If you do NOTHING to change your team, this will play out.

If however you change your team, the way the match plays out is recalculated. Suddenly player X doesn't get injured on 33 minutes but will instead score an own goal on 42.

Repeat the process for the second half.

Now this is the key bit, so it's in bold: Whether you watch the full match, extended highlights, key highlights or the text commentary, EXACTLY the same process played out each time. It will not change depending on what game view you use.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">I noticed that too. as I said 10 off sides in 20 minutes and none after that, 3 tackles and then suddenly 15. it might be a coincidence, but this is happening to me all the time. to go further on that metter, check out the amount of off sides on your games and then check out it's number on other matches. I don't take things for granted and I believe only what I see, more than what I read. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

A person plays the game in an infinite number of ways. The AI has a large number of fixed method of 'playing'. It is likely that the results in an AI v AI game would play out differently to a Human - who has strange ideas about 'real life' football and how they can be recreated in the game - versus the AI game and that THIS explains the differences in offsides, shots on goal, etc. etc.

As we know SI broadly test the match engine with AI versus AI tests - it is not beyond the realms of possibility that we are seeing the match engine tuned to AI v AI and that it needs balancing to reflect the illogical behaviour of the human manager.

This is where FM Live will be a huge advantage. Match engine testing with hundreds of thousnds of human users as a sample, rather than sampling thousands of AI v AI games to find a good statistical average.

Hawshiels
24-01-2008, 12:19
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by leftback in the changing room:
This is where FM Live will be a huge advantage. Match engine testing with hundreds of thousnds of human users as a sample, rather than sampling thousands of AI v AI games to find a good statistical average. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I have had my reservations about the direction that FM Live will take the FM series, but I agree 100% that the match engine could be made much much better with the number of human player tests they will have at their disposal. It will give SI an excellent testbed if they choose to use it this way.

Mitja
24-01-2008, 13:33
posted by F.N.G.



Generally sound advice Cleon, but I think waht frustrates most people is the need to have to spend two minutes analysing the last match, and then preparing and tweaking your formation to counter the next team. Don't get me wrong, I'm sure it's much more realistic than just sticking to the same team and tactic week in week out, but what frustrates most people is that there is too much emphasis on tactics, and not enough on quality players.
Teams like Chelsea (yes, I play as Chelsea mainly, yes, I am a fan) should be able to put out a strong team with the same tactic and beat teams far weaker than them. It should be up to the weak teams to worry about them, not vice versa. Why should we have to also build a tactic around other teams weaknesses, rather than or own team#s strengths? This is the first incarnation of the game I've felt I HAD to play full backs, because my usual three centre backs just won't work, no matter how good they are, and how poor the opposition strikers are.
I think the other major frustration (as has been posted many times elsewhere) is creating many oppertunities, and seeing world class strikers sky the ball or pass it to the keeper when one on one. And this is with low tempo, short passing, all the usual ways to imrpove.
I'm not moaning it's too hard, I can usually win the league, have won a few champions leagues, cups etc (realistic), but I'm just getting tired of seeing my side lead 1-0 on 90mins and seeing them draw 1-1 in the 95th min (after only 3mins of stoppage time has been added) from a corner or long shot. Almost 3/4 of the time (not exagerrating, actually counted) the opposition keeper gets MOM. Seeing the DMC (who is allegedly continental class) dwell on the ball time after time, and giving away goals... the list goes on.
Is the match engine flawed? In my opinion, yes, but I think it's been done with the best intentions to make it more challenging, and to make it more true to life in the way that on any given day, any team can beat anyone else. I just think this happens far too often. Will I stick with it? Of course. But where I used to spend a good few hours before getting mad and storming off in a huff after losing (usually for being arrogant and sending reserves out against 'weaker teams; (like Spurs Wink), I now find myself only spending the odd half hour, (after Lewis Price saves 20 shots on target and Nyatanga eqalises for Derby, for instance - and that's with a full strength side) before wanting to smack something.
The point of this long, rambling post is to say that for me, the main fun of FM is buying players, seeing how they do and selling them, the games themselves are kind of a side show. I used to get through a whole season in a week sometimes. Now each game takes 10mins (because, as you say, you learn nothing from the highlights), needs analysis, and tweaking. It's gained a new level of depth, and lost the simplicity that made it fun.

Mitja
24-01-2008, 14:15
written by paoloween:


It's more or less what I've always said, tactics just have too big a impact on matches in this game. Yes IRL tactics are important thats a fact, but it's the players that are the most important thing.

Tactics IRL is all about getting that 20% advantage over your opponents or on the odd occasion slightly more.

It IS NOT the difference between getting battered by a rubbish team or hammering them, it is very rarely this dramatic IRL.

The other problem is having to change tactics during games depending on the situation. I read some people here who have 4/5 different tactic sets that they flick between, and these same people have the audacity to call this realistic.

IRL managers DO NOT dramatically change tactics during games, why? because it is more or less impossible to. How can a manager change so much from the sidelines? maybe the odd little thing or 2 yes but nothing much.

For example when you are dominating a match and you then take the lead, so often the game just dramatically changes its almost like the computer flick a switch to start having chances. I read people on here say well you need to change your tactics etc. NONSENSE, this is not realistic.

First of all IRL when a team takes the lead in particular if they are the better stronger team, they will normally start to dominate even more as the weaker opponents heads will often drop.

I mean yes IRL managers may have presets game plans before a match etc. For example a manager might give his team instructions to sit back and play more defensively if his side takes the lead, particularly away from home, maybe even for just 15 mins after to keep it tight etc. Once the match has started though the manager can do very little to change much, only the odd thing and maybe the shape of the team can be changed etc.

Therefore a big problem with this game is the AI's ability to dramatically change tactics during games (and normally hidden like mentality etc, not a change of shape which would be easier to spot) and it can have too much of a dramatic impact on games, almost instantly changing. It's just not realistic and very frustrating.

andu1
24-01-2008, 14:47
I,ve started a game with real playing only on commentary mode.For tactics i use a flat 4-4-2.Guess what im undeafeated in almost 20 games,beat even barca at nou camp.If i switch in game from commentary to 2d mode i get hammered by teams like cska moscow.Something is very wrong about this game...

Mitja
24-01-2008, 14:51
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by andu1:
I,ve started a game with real playing only on commentary mode.For tactics i use a flat 4-4-2.Guess what im undeafeated in almost 20 games,beat even barca at nou camp.If i switch in game from commentary to 2d mode i get hammered by teams like cska moscow.Something is very wrong about this game... </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

lol, proofs, evidence???

Mitja
24-01-2008, 14:52
....I mean you shouldn't be talking about that.

Mitja
24-01-2008, 15:01
big discussion on similar metter can also be found here:

http://community.sigames.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/1519717/m/6432087473

andu1
24-01-2008, 15:15
http://img84.imageshack.us/my.php?image=realzo7.jpg

http://img227.imageshack.us/my.php?image=tacticpy9.jpg

http://img227.imageshack.us/my.php?image=weirdyo7.jpg

Last one is from the game with Cska.I switch to 2d extended highlits from 70 to 80 minute and look what happened. http://community.sigames.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gifIf it's a coincidence then it's a big one.

Mitja
24-01-2008, 15:21
do you experience strange too many chances, long shots, off sides on your only commentary matches? can you post some match stats?

Mitja
24-01-2008, 15:22
if you don't experience all that (and if you are on 8.0.1 patcd, of course), can you play some matches in full mode?

Mitja
24-01-2008, 15:35
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by andu1:
I,ve started a game with real playing only on commentary mode.For tactics i use a flat 4-4-2.Guess what im undeafeated in almost 20 games,beat even barca at nou camp.If i switch in game from commentary to 2d mode i get hammered by teams like cska moscow.Something is very wrong about this game... </div></BLOCKQUOTE>


great form,by the way...


you gave me an idea for a little experiment. probably know what I'm talking about. anyway if you feel to perticipate in it, you are more then wellcome.....know I must learn how to upload an image.

Arnoldzhu
24-01-2008, 18:44
Thanks again, Mitja.

I just finished testing again. The background is like this: Start the game using 8.0 database and 8.0 program. Select EPL only and control ManUtd in default manager name, birthday, nationality and "international professional football player" reputation cos' I don't want my lad in low morale if their manager is too inexperienced.

So the game starts. Don't touch anything and go directly to the first friendly match of the season. Team Selection is as follows:
GK: Van der Sar
DF: Wes Brown, Ferdinand, Vidic, Evra
MF: Ronaldo, Carrick, Anderson, Giggs
FW: Rooney, Tevez

Formation is default 442 with ML/R farraows to up frontline. That is 442 attacking formation exactly.

My conclusion first: the match engine in 8.0 is way much better than in 8.0.1.

In 8.0, the match is enjoyable and I'm actually happy watching my players doing clever but normal things cos' it's like real life. The movement of the 2 MCs are just nice, they always come closer to provide passing options for fullback and wigers and Aderson who is set "forward runs often" do make "forward runs" and he scored once in another test of match. You can see beautiful movements of attacking players. The player through balls, sometimes sholding the ball the pass to the overlapping fullbacks and sometimes pass the ball back for deeper position players to take long shot. They even tried to make chip balls over the defenders head into penalty area. In a word, it's like-life match engine and it's enjoyable. I really can't see any obvious bug, of course there must be some bug and I only played a few friendly matches in one club team. But for gods sake it's good in 8.0 whatsoever.

In 8.0.1 I still win the game with score of 6-0 while in 8.0 I win 7-0. But the match was uglier and less enjoyable to be honest. I have proof of course of both match PKM, though I don't know how to upload them. In 8.0 they make some really beautiful creative passess into the box. With 8.0.1 players seems to move slower and always at a loss with ball under feet, seems they don't know what to do or where to pass the ball. Looks so stupid to me. And anderson never make "forward runs often". And matches are played under the utterly same circumstances as I have pointed out earlier.

Finally to summarize my feelings after doing the test on the match engine with 8.0 versus 8.0.1.

1.The first touch thing in 8.0 sometimes has some problem just like what is said in the changelist of 8.0.1 and it's been fixed in 8.0.1

2.I don't see any other obvious problems with 8.0 match engine. I never feel there's the "closing down" bug. In 8.0.1 I even feel the closing down is a bug. The defensive formation is not so good and sometimes I have to tune down closing down a bit.

3.8.0.1 tuned down acceleration too much. You feel your players are just wandering. In my opinion, the speed of running in 8.0 is just fine. I hope it can be tuned back to what it was.

4. In 8.0.1 the first moment player receive the ball they always seem to pause in a sudden maybe that's ok cos' they may have to look up to other players' position, but then they seem to be still at a loss as to where to pass the ball or hesitate to dribble until opponent come to compete for the ball. In 8.0 the passing and receiving is just nice, fluent, flowing. Players always moving to find and provide passing options. I tell you, this is the biggest issue and if you try and look at the highlights in full screen mode carefully, you can tell the difference.

5. My opinion is just like this: The game should be made more easier but, but, that doesn't mean let us easily win every match and every title. It's all about realism, like-life. As long as it looks real I would be happy and enjoying playing the game no matter if I'm winning or losing. The stats can be made to be "in line with real world data" but the performace with realism on the pitch is most important. When can we see the movement of players in the match engine is in line with real world player performance?

6. In 8.0 match engine I see the bright future of this game. Football fans as we're, the first and most enjoyable thing is to watch the matches of our favourite team, right? We'd love to see those beautiful movements and goal scorings. It's football itself. Then we might get to discuss about tactics and transfers.

7. So maybe I just go on playing with 8.0 cos' that makes me addicted and enjoying the game. And I don't give a s**t to those bugs which might cause any other stats problem. Otherwise I'll just get bored even if I could win all the matches and titles.

Kriss
24-01-2008, 23:13
I have had my reservations about the direction that FM Live will take the FM series, but I agree 100% that the match engine could be made much much better with the number of human player tests they will have at their disposal. It will give SI an excellent testbed if they choose to use it this way.

Already over 2000 playing and the data being used for analysis.
It's fascinating to see how the same ME reacts when 2 humans are the players.

Too early yet but I look forward to seeing discussions about it on this and the FML forums.

I wouldn't worry about the future of FM or FML as long as this sort of interest and constructive critique continues.

Arnoldzhu
24-01-2008, 23:38
I just went through the changelist of 8.0.1 again and have to admit that SI did a lot of hark work in it. So fairly speaking maybe on many issues I didn't get to the point cos' I only have some vague feeling through several matches played. And I do believe SI make patches to fix bugs to give the game more realism. But at least I have to stress again on 2 points:

1. Football is technique thing. Jumping should never play that much effect. "Heading" should be greatly improved in the match engine. Look into real life football, the player with better anitcipation and who uses better technique to stand in better position first will be able to take control of the ball or make a header pass to his team mates. Jumping high in this kind of situation always lead to foul by the high-jumper as we can always see in real life matches who almost sit on other's shoulders.

2. Movement, movement again. Frequent moves, co-operations, teamworks, intricate passings, more one-twos, more back-heel passes,etc. Better marking and better sense of covering when defending.

Mitja
25-01-2008, 00:42
again you provided some interesting data. it looks like 8.0 and 8.0.1 are 2 different ME's.


as far as I remember there are 3 major bugs with 8.0 which make it unplayable. closing down (set it on 1 and then to 20, you won't see any difference) and disallowed goals/off side and too many fouls.


PS I don't remeber I ever saw a back heel pass http://community.sigames.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Arnoldzhu
25-01-2008, 01:43
Well, I dare not say they are totally different, it's just kinda feeling you know. As you can see in the changelist the match engine has been tweaked so much that it makes us feel there's quite much difference between the two.

But since I won't continue my game with 8.0.1 it seems that switching between 8.0 and 8.0.1 to test the different performances of the 2 version match engines is my only enjoyment and fun recently. http://community.sigames.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif lol

Yes I know 8.0 has bugs and that's why we have 8.0.1 now. But some nice moves in 8.0 just disappeard from 8.0.1. And of course in 8.0.1 there's some other nice realistic performances but still it seems they happen too rarely. And the general intelligence of players in 8.0.1 is not so good as in 8.0.

Mitja
25-01-2008, 01:57
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Arnoldzhu:
Well, I dare not say they are totally different, it's just kinda feeling you know. As you can see in the changelist the match engine has been tweaked so much that it makes us feel there's quite much difference between the two.

But since I won't continue my game with 8.0.1 it seems that switching between 8.0 and 8.0.1 to test the different performances of the 2 version match engines is my only enjoyment and fun recently. http://community.sigames.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif lol

Yes I know 8.0 has bugs and that's why we have 8.0.1 now. But some nice moves in 8.0 just disappeard from 8.0.1. And of course in 8.0.1 there's some other nice realistic performances but still it seems they happen too rarely. And the general intelligence of players in 8.0.1 is not so good as in 8.0. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

looks like everybody's on experiments thesedays. http://community.sigames.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif I'm also starting with one experiment. I will try to compare if the game (ME) acts differently when watching matches and commentary only. my first 10 matches I'll play on commentary and then moce to watching. this won't be hard to figure out the difference.

it's been on my mind since introdution of 2D ME, when the difference was obvious (on 1st FM with 2D ME).

George Graham
25-01-2008, 02:24
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Arnoldzhu:
Well, I dare not say they are totally different, it's just kinda feeling you know. As you can see in the changelist the match engine has been tweaked so much that it makes us feel there's quite much difference between the two.

But since I won't continue my game with 8.0.1 it seems that switching between 8.0 and 8.0.1 to test the different performances of the 2 version match engines is my only enjoyment and fun recently. http://community.sigames.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif lol

Yes I know 8.0 has bugs and that's why we have 8.0.1 now. But some nice moves in 8.0 just disappeard from 8.0.1. And of course in 8.0.1 there's some other nice realistic performances but still it seems they happen too rarely. And the general intelligence of players in 8.0.1 is not so good as in 8.0. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Agree- I know its rather simplistic in saying this but I felt that "all" SI had to do was sort out the defending, the rest of 8.00 was pretty much on the money for me, and I could certainly see a massive change over FM07s ME and the potential for the FM08 to be, well simply sublime. I cant underline enough how good it felt at times, even with the obvious issues.

Thats why 8.01 is so frustrating- disregarding the obvious shot ratio issues even, the 8.01 ME is a shadow of what 8.00 seemed to have the potential to evolve into.

Im perplexed as to why anybody at SI would think 8.01s ME would be acceptable after we had been "teased" by the potential of the 8.00 engine.

Arnoldzhu
25-01-2008, 02:27
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content"> I'm also starting with one experiment. I will try to compare if the game (ME) acts differently when watching matches and commentary only. my first 10 matches I'll play on commentary and then moce to watching. this won't be hard to figure out the difference.

it's been on my mind since introdution of 2D ME, when the difference was obvious (on 1st FM with 2D ME). </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Oh, really, interesting. Just now I played a friendly match using Liverpool against some FC Dallas. (8.0.1) It seems it's hard to organize threatening attacks. Highlights just seems to be repeating same movements. Can't score a goal. I don't understand why my players just blindly shoot the ball and always got deflected. And in second half FC Dallas scored a strange goal it looks like a cross but deflected and the ball just slowly roll into the net. No one ever bother to try dispose the danger. Of course, the keeper went for the wrong side of the door. It reminds me one point is that players seem to react not quick enough in 8.0.1. That needs to be looking into I think. Finally, surely, I quit the game immediately, again, with despair. http://community.sigames.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_frown.gif http://community.sigames.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif And it's not because I lost the game of course. I don't say, you know why.

Arnoldzhu
25-01-2008, 03:01
Oh, I have to add one thing that the ball actully didn't roll into the net. Because it stopped after just went pass the line. http://community.sigames.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif So you see how slooow the ball actully was. http://community.sigames.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

Arnoldzhu
25-01-2008, 03:09
Ah! yes, one more thing. About the reaction of players, the keeper obviously seems to have a little too much quicker reaction on the contrary. You know I have very good quick reflex and I played as GK when young. But I run very slowly. Now the outfield players on the 8.0.1 pitch seems to be worse than me because of their low reaction http://community.sigames.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif and more lazier than me because of their lack of wide range moving and running. Haha!

Mitja
25-01-2008, 03:16
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Arnoldzhu:
Ah! yes, one more thing. About the reaction of players, the keeper obviously seems to have a little too much quicker reaction on the contrary. You know I have very good quick reflex and I played as GK when young. But I run very slowly. Now the outfield players on the 8.0.1 pitch seems to be worse than me because of their low reaction http://community.sigames.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif and more lazier than me because of their lack of wide range moving and running. Haha! </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I just can't believe some people are satisfied with movement on 8.0.1. to me only full back's movement has improved from 07. don't off the ball is lesser problem then positioning.

my experiment will be very interesting I think. my first asumption is allready happened. that Cesc will get injured soon. it acctually happened in 1st match. http://community.sigames.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

also some ME asumptions happened, but it is still too early for conclussions, thanks Andu1.

mantis616
25-01-2008, 03:29
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">I'm also starting with one experiment. I will try to compare if the game (ME) acts differently when watching matches and commentary only. my first 10 matches I'll play on commentary and then moce to watching. this won't be hard to figure out the difference.

it's been on my mind since introdution of 2D ME, when the difference was obvious (on 1st FM with 2D ME). </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Hey Mitja, please feed us back when you have something as proof. As i told here before, heard too many complains about them(ME&Only Comm.) being different. Wondering if it's really this common.

gonzo7
25-01-2008, 03:47
Whats makes me laugh win the ME within 8.01 is that Dave Nugent is the only striker I've found who can consistently score 1 0n 1's.

The ME's not great but I'm just getting on with it. Moaning will not make the next patch come faster so why bother?

Mitja
25-01-2008, 03:49
mantis, of course I will. I just need help becouse I don't know how to up'load the file. I know imageshack, but I'm stuck on the print screen... http://community.sigames.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

Mitja
25-01-2008, 03:57
more I think about how easy it could be to sort this tactical system... this sliders are so un unrealistic. you need to make the right combination of them, I mean wouldn't it be easier to ectually tell player what you want him to do, I mean it's only a click. now ME must consider so many combinations, it doesn't suprise me it's buggy.

not to mention how many new options that would bring (by telling players what you want-&gt; giving duties).

Powermonger
25-01-2008, 04:19
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Mitja:
more I think about how easy it could be to sort this tactical system... this sliders are so un unrealistic. you need to make the right combination of them, I mean wouldn't it be easier to ectually tell player what you want him to do, I mean it's only a click. now ME must consider so many combinations, it doesn't suprise me it's buggy.

not to mention how many new options that would bring (by telling players what you want-&gt; giving duties). </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

That's why the wibble/wobble screen was good, while not really realistic but it did make tactic creation easier and individual instructions less complex.

The slider system is just as unrealistic I feel but worse still even more difficult to understand. With some sliders having 21 different slider positions, it's very unclear to see what a single increment of a slider does and makes it frustrating to comprehend and feel comfortable with.

mantis616
25-01-2008, 04:38
ok, just print screen, open paint, ctrl + v, save as x.jpg, open imageshack, find the file to upload and do it. then paste the link here http://community.sigames.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Mitja
25-01-2008, 04:44
it can't be that easy, thanks.

UELLfan
25-01-2008, 04:49
One thing I really hate about the ME is my wingers and strikers not closing back on the oposition defenders once they get past them.

I'll elaborate a bit, it's just like if my AML, ST and AMR only pressed the oposition in a small frame of one inch in my screen. If the oposition are closer to their goal they won't press and if they've passed that magical line they won't track back to keep pressing.

This creates a safety zone in which the oposition defenders can pass the ball safely (out of reach for the DMC and two MCs and past the influence zone of said players) and keep passing the ball endlessly there until they hoof it up.

Mitja
25-01-2008, 05:11
my experiment is in danger at the moment http://community.sigames.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_mad.gif

4 games; 1-2-1, 3+ 3-

it looks like my strikers are having problems scoring... hmmm, isn't that familliar? even though still no SOT/G Ratio problems.

DJ68Alkmaar
25-01-2008, 05:27
2 quick thoughts as I'm in a real hurry today:

1.FM2008 has achieved what I thought would never happen. It has destroyed my enthusiasm for Football Manager, and I've been playing regularly since CM00/01. The reason ? The match engine. Instead of perfecting (or as close as any simulation cna get) a match engine that was relatively realistic (the last one, FM 2007 fully patched), they decided to re-design from scratch, ruin all the progress achieved over the years and take, IMO, a big step back. Why can't they content themselves with incremental steps forward with a settled game engine, rather than taking a revolutionary approach? The love affair is over for me.....

2. I hate sliders ! How, in any way, does this reflect reality ? Does a real manager, before the game, or at half time, say: "right lads, on a scale of 1-20, I want your attacking mentality to be about 16" !! Language is not so precise. The old system of: ultra-defensive; defensive; normal; attacking; gung-ho was more realistic in that it reflected the limitations of human language and communication. CM?FM and the old EHM used to get this right.

I still think the basic structure of the game is superb. I came back to it over and over again for about 8 years. But I'm sorry to say that SI have lost the plot a little bit....

Mitja
25-01-2008, 05:46
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by DJ68Alkmaar:
2 quick thoughts as I'm in a real hurry today:

1.FM2008 has achieved what I thought would never happen. It has destroyed my enthusiasm for Football Manager, and I've been playing regularly since CM00/01. The reason ? The match engine. Instead of perfecting (or as close as any simulation cna get) a match engine that was relatively realistic (the last one, FM 2007 fully patched), they decided to re-design from scratch, ruin all the progress achieved over the years and take, IMO, a big step back. Why can't they content themselves with incremental steps forward with a settled game engine, rather than taking a revolutionary approach? The love affair is over for me.....

2. I hate sliders ! How, in any way, does this reflect reality ? Does a real manager, before the game, or at half time, say: "right lads, on a scale of 1-20, I want your attacking mentality to be about 16" !! Language is not so precise. The old system of: ultra-defensive; defensive; normal; attacking; gung-ho was more realistic in that it reflected the limitations of human language and communication. CM?FM and the old EHM used to get this right.

I still think the basic structure of the game is superb. I came back to it over and over again for about 8 years. But I'm sorry to say that SI have lost the plot a little bit.... </div></BLOCKQUOTE>


many SI staff are on forums for the last couple of days. I think we're making some good debates here and whiming turned into constructive and open expression of our feelings. they could at least say something (maybe try to defend the game), becouse this silence meens they messed up big time.

Arnoldzhu
25-01-2008, 06:51
Well I really don't expect SI staff comes out and say: hey! this is a good idea/suggestion we'll deploy/correct this one. But I believe they will be reading and thinking carefully. And if there's something need to be changed, it will be changed. And we don't need to close SI down to much, because we'll never get to the ball -- it's always under their feet -- they develop the program of the game. We should work together to make the game better by providing thoughtful thoughts and constructive ideas. So that both SI and us will get benefit from the improvement on the game. We should try being understanding and we might get better chance that SI will consider our moaning and ideas. http://community.sigames.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif http://community.sigames.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_razz.gif

Mitja
25-01-2008, 07:43
http://img221.imageshack.us/img221/2338/teaminstructionwb9.png (http://imageshack.us)

andu1
25-01-2008, 08:13
Still no defeat -----http://img228.imageshack.us/my.php?image=tableil2.jpg----

If i think how much time i spent trying to improve the bloody tactics by watching the game on extended highligts the one im using is really trivial. And yeah,my game version is 8.0.1 114310
http://img99.imageshack.us/my.php?image=tacticem0.jpg
http://img218.imageshack.us/my.php?image=instructionshk9.jpg

And a little experiment commentary vs full 2d match.
http://img99.imageshack.us/my.php?image=commentarytj6.jpg
http://img221.imageshack.us/my.php?image=commentary2gz1.jpg

http://img221.imageshack.us/my.php?image=fullmatchfk9.jpg
http://img221.imageshack.us/my.php?image=fullmatchif5.jpg

Definetely for me this game is much more user friendly by using just commentary.

Mitja
25-01-2008, 09:31
tnx for reply andu1.

a little unrealistic resoult on 2nd pair of images (let me guess those are when wiewing match). but those resoults do happen IRE. if you are motivate to investigate further I'll be more then glad.


I also started the same experiment. played 5 matches only on commentary , nothing fancy 5 games, 2w, 2d, 1l. with arsenal. I must say that I got the feeling that tactics don't have to be teaked during matches. also I didn't find anything strange, except my players didn't score much. all stats also seemed fined.

now I played one match on full mode. beat birmingham 2-1. I must say it was one of those strange matches on FM (but good, to be fair). even though stats were fine, match was weird. scored 2 goals from penaltys and those chances that should have been scored wasn't (for both sides). it looks like scoring has become mystery to my team.

since I played my last game on 1st beta (with blackburn), I must say that some things are way better on official and some are far worse. movement of players is really beter by far. also fouls, off sides are fixed (as it seems). positioning or shall I say feamous "frequant black outs" by defenders is smth which is hard to understand. cleared ball and then strikers comes from no-where and a second after he is alone 1/1 with keeper. I don't remember I saw it against my (human) team (correct me if I'm wrong), so I think it's got smth to do with tactics or even team talks.

at the moment it's impossibile to make any smart conclussions, to me about ME behaviour on commentary and while watching.

Mitja
25-01-2008, 10:47
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Mitja:
tnx for reply andu1.

a little unrealistic resoult on 2nd pair of images (let me guess those are when wiewing match). but those resoults do happen IRE. if you are motivate to investigate further I'll be more then glad.


I also started the same experiment. played 5 matches only on commentary , nothing fancy 5 games, 2w, 2d, 1l. with arsenal. I must say that I got the feeling that tactics don't have to be teaked during matches. also I didn't find anything strange, except my players didn't score much. all stats also seemed fined.

now I played one match on full mode. beat birmingham 2-1. I must say it was one of those strange matches on FM (but good, to be fair). even though stats were fine, match was weird. scored 2 goals from penaltys and those chances that should have been scored wasn't (for both sides). it looks like scoring has become mystery to my team.

since I played my last game on 1st beta (with blackburn), I must say that some things are way better on official and some are far worse. movement of players is really beter by far. also fouls, off sides are fixed (as it seems). positioning or shall I say feamous "frequant black outs" by defenders is smth which is hard to understand. cleared ball and then strikers comes from no-where and a second after he is alone 1/1 with keeper. I don't remember I saw it against my (human) team (correct me if I'm wrong), so I think it's got smth to do with tactics or even team talks.

at the moment it's impossibile to make any smart conclussions, to me about ME behaviour on commentary and while watching. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

forgot to tell the most important thing. 2 posts and 3-4 good chances were not scored.

Mitja
25-01-2008, 11:27
2nd match. still same story. nothing strange so far. stats still seem much as same as they were on commentary. controled match making plenty of good chances which strikers failed to convert. still occasional black outs. but I'm yet to see decent cross.

I did this and it's interesting to me (player instructions).

- forward runs to often to all players. ***DC to mixed

-run with ball to often *** DC MC mixed

-through balls all mixed *** whole midfield often

-fair amounts of creative freedom for all players except DC*** 5 notces& 7 mentality

-high closing down for all players including DC *** 9

--------&gt; I'll post links but still finding it impossibile http://community.sigames.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_frown.gif


I find run with ball especially interesting. and I think that's the key to how AI's playing. I believe it means exactly that- run with ball http://community.sigames.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif not dribling. how much space should player use for moving forward instead of standing. I find it strange. on my next match I'll set all my players to run with ball often. I believe that could help MC just standing and making cyrcles. also when midfielders mix their passes with defenders, things look qiute OK. but I still miss wingers and strikers comming deep and that's very important. I know it's easy to set that up but I don't think it's fair to use any other formation that isn't used by AI also in this experiment (I never use such formations).

the same goes for through balls. I allways thought they are "killer balls", but it's about "passing the ball into space" instead. why I think this is strange; becouse I think passing the ball into space like run with ball should be the part of player's tactical knowledge and ability not tactical instruction. it would be logical to give your best passer that instruction, not whole team. I must feel sorry for anyone who played with defoult player instructions, if that's the case.

Mitja
25-01-2008, 11:32
andu1 do you experience super keepers and strange SOT/G ratio when playing only on commentary? as I still don't. (12 games into season, with pre season matches).

Mitja
26-01-2008, 03:34
resoults so far:

http://img81.imageshack.us/img81/1888/fixtures1sl2.jpg

Mitja
26-01-2008, 03:38
hope this better

http://img352.imageshack.us/img352/1848/fixtures1di3.jpg

Mitja
27-01-2008, 10:24
so I made a little test; does match engine work differently if the game is played only on commentary and if it's watched on full. the conclussion is that it shouldn't be the case, based on resoults and match stats.

so here are the links. pay attention to these match stats:

- SOT/G ratio

- posession

- off sides

- fouls


league standings:

http://img220.imageshack.us/img220/4679/standingspr8.jpg

resoults:

http://img528.imageshack.us/img528/7299/resoultsvb9.jpg

team instruction:

http://img217.imageshack.us/img217/5605/tinstructionsxt6.jpg



some match stats (on commentary)

http://img217.imageshack.us/img217/105/1styn8.jpg

http://img217.imageshack.us/img217/3813/3rduu1.jpg

http://img221.imageshack.us/img221/9086/4they9.jpg

http://img230.imageshack.us/img230/4967/5thzy6.jpg


2 matches on full highlights:

http://img230.imageshack.us/img230/5913/1stonfulltg5.jpg

http://img108.imageshack.us/img108/6287/2ndonfullvz3.jpg

Jimbokav1971
27-01-2008, 10:46
Mitja. If you are going to do any sort of experiment at all, you should really compare the same games with or without commentary. In any case it will make no difference as this has absolutely no affect on the outcome of matches.

Comparing different games is just about as silly as suggesting it in the first place.

Mitja
27-01-2008, 10:59
no my friend I don't agree. it might be silly to think the ME acts differently, OK.

comparing different games? do you think comparing the same game isn't silly with such experiment, as well, do you think the same game playing time after time isn't just another (different) game?

I said look at the match stats.... so it meens I was looking for a patern. will ther be an average of 15 off sides on matches played on full mode and only 6 on commentary..and so on.

I hope next time you write smth like this you could think for a second before you write it down http://community.sigames.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Arnoldzhu
27-01-2008, 20:13
http://community.sigames.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif I agree with Mitja.

And to support your conclusion, since I haven't done that kind of test on commentary thing, but I can be sure that they are using the same match engine. You know why, because when you play the match on commentary only mode, and when you goto change tactics, on the bottom there will be small screen showing 2d match is just still going on. Yes, that's it. Commentary only mode still works on 2d match engine. It's just it doesn't show the screen while it actually can when you changing tactics. http://community.sigames.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_razz.gif http://community.sigames.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif http://community.sigames.com/customicons/icon14.gif

Mitja
28-01-2008, 02:21
I did that experiment becouse of 2 reasons. 1st becouse I allways watch my matches on full (more or less) and the 2nd is when 2D ME was introduced (CM4?) this issue was obvious. it might be silly to think so but I just wanted to be sure.

Arnoldzhu
28-01-2008, 04:12
Totally understandable cos' I doubted about that too like many others do.

I tried playing with 8.0.1 and also compared with 8.0. Of course, I can figure out some simple and reasonable tactics to get stable performances with 8.0.1. The game is playable if you don't ask too much from the tactical/ME thing.

And 8.0 ME is great except the closing down bug and first touch/dribble problem which happens rarely. Attacking is just beautiful and realistic at least.

So my only hope is just to see, in the next patch, those active movements and threatening intricate short passings as is seen in 8.0.

Mitja
29-01-2008, 07:57
written by HeartShapedMan:

I also think there are too many chances/shots on goal. As a long time fan/watcher of football, I'd put it down to three main match engine related reasons:

1) The final ball/cross is a bit too good/accurate. In real life it usually takes many attempts to get the final ball perfect in order to create a chance, even with world class players. It's a very delicate art. Which leads to my next point...

2) Defenders. The AI for defenders is poor compared to the attackers. They aren't very good at the fundamental law of defending - stay goalside of the attacker until the last possible moment (to then make a challenge). They are too static, as if ball watching, and rarely pick up players when the other team are attacking/around your area or just easily let the attacker get goalside. Also, the advantage is (usually) with defenders since when a ball/pass/cross comes in, all they have to do is clear it, whereas an attacker must bring the ball under control and/or get a shot on target, which is much more difficult. Defenders don't need to worry about bringing the ball under control, they can just clear their lines. There should be a lot more crosses/final balls being cleared and not instantly brought down and fired in by attackers when the two players are in the same place vying for the ball.

3) Goalkeepers. As I played as a goalkeeper when younger this irks me. Again, their AI, especially their positional awareness, is poor. They are terrific shot stoppers (maybe a bit too good) but when it comes to the fundamentals of getting your angles right they often fail miserably. They are often woeful at covering their near posts, which is an unwritten golden rule of goalkeeping, with goals let in at the near-post usually seen as an error by the keeper. They also seem to act a bit too quickly when it comes to the flight of the ball, they'll quickly run to where the ball/cross would land only to have it headed in at the near post with the goalkeeper standing 10 yards away out of his goal. Although that may be tied to eccentricity.

Mitja
29-01-2008, 07:59
one thing I missed to write it down, but is very important for this thread is ball speed.


BALL SPEED?


1) absolutly true. one pacey striker and you have as many 1/1 as you want, for example. but does the ball speed play big role here. I mentioned this many times, also did some test; the ball is too slow (esp. on 8.0.1). just look at passes, players are waitnig for the ball, every second pass. so it's no wonder that we have so many key passes, being succesfull. I know many will disagree, but comparing some real football matches with FM ME, you'll see what I'm talking about. as I said I did some tests also, but the problem is that we don't have REAL TIME in FM; you can't find any slider that would suite 1 minute of real time.

2) no doubt. IRE defender's got advantage over attacking player on passes, especialy long and through balls, becouse the ball is comming his way. he's got more time to react. in FM that isn't the case. why. ball speed in my opinoum. look at long balls for example. both, ATTing and DEFing players just stand still and wait for the ball to fall. IRE you see much more movement to get to the ball.

I realy think increasing the ball speed slightky would bring more reality to the game via more bad passes, more movement to get to the ball, the ball would be harder to handle also...

3) goalkeepers are too good. but they have to be, becouse then we would have some realy crazy resoults out there.



EXAMPLES OF BALL BEING TOO SLOW

- most obvous and anoying one; players constantly wait for the ball to get to them.

- it takes years from GK's goal kick to falling to the ground. same for long passes. players are waiting (far too often) instead od moving to get to it. but crosses are somehow much faster?!?

- IRE; key passes played around the box, those are not passes, they are more like shots to foot. that's how quick those passes are. very hard to handle and control. don't see any of that in FM.

- killer balls. "don't happen a lot IRE", or at least not as deadly as in FM;-&gt; happen all the time, due to attacking player being able to run as fast as ball?!? ---&gt;

&lt;- players ability to run as fast as ball; happens all the time in FM. that just isn't the case IRE, that's why teams are passing, becouse it's MUCH quicker then simply runing with ball.

- too good ball control becouse of the ball being too slow.--&gt;

&lt;- players don't have many problems with passing and controling, when under pressure (cloing down), due to ball being controled too easy. -&gt; the basic idea of closing down should be that opponents loose their posession, via clearances, bad passes/ control, or interceptions.



I'm sure there are some more examples, but these are the most obvious.

Arnoldzhu
30-01-2008, 06:05
Oh, mostly I agree.

The ball speed of passing/shooting and player running speed just don't look right. And of course, we don't have real time clock in ME. I don't see the reason. In earlier version of other football manager game they simulate a match in about 5 (more or less) minutes. Now SI simulate a 90 minutes full-time in about 60 minutes. What does that mean? Maybe that means less actions, less movments, less bad passes, less turns of attacking and couter attacking? Less realism in totall?

But about the ball controlling, I don't think we can just simply judge it to be too good or too poor. As we know, the control of midfield is something very important. In 8.0.1 we can see the play in midfield is already not so secure. I mean when the midfield player gets the ball I will get worried if he can convey the ball to other player or make any actions done. I just hope he won't dwell the ball too long for no reason to lose it, cos' it's dangerous and unrealistic.

But above all, I actually continue to play the game just because I love the game -- football, on the condition that I neglect all unrealistic aspects in match engine. And I find using the default tactics with little tweak seems to be an easier and more effective way to play. That will cause less shots on goal but higher rate of converting a goal.

As we're still going to play the game till we get too old to play, I'll rather simply list some real actions we'd like to see in match engine.

1. correct speed of player running and ball passing/shooting
2. better intelligence in player choosing different speed of running/passing which leads to rhythm variation.
3. players work as a team better by passing and receiving ball more actively
4. players work as a team better by moving and positoning themselves more actively
5. defensive leader should organize defense like irl.(quite high demand for current match engine maybe I don't know about this actually)
6. realistic headers especially header direction/distance when two player compete for the ball
7. player holds the ball more like real life (irl ball should be harder to take away when player holding/controlling it than when player dribbling it with some speed)
8. different height of passing -- overhead lob passing, long and low penetrating quick passing, etc
9. realistic ball controlling using all parts of body (as is defined in ball controlling training)
10.less aimless passing and shooting; more correct passing distance no matter how you move the passing slider
11.much improved winger (and all other players) off-ball movement
12.midfielders should help defense (including forwards, its not realistc that, no matter what tactics is assigned, when opponent is attacking for 2,3 minutes and your forwards/wingers/AMCs/ are still staying upfront and doing nothing, they should also help defense even if they just come back slowly but they should come back to disrupt opponent's attck at least)

Ok that's all for now I don't know if I'm right but that's just something fair and normal if you watch real life football. http://community.sigames.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Mitja
30-01-2008, 07:05
nice to see you back arnoldzhu.

I know I can't put things into words that nicely http://community.sigames.com/customicons/icon14.gif

hmmm... what can I say

13. heel pass!! many times it happens that feel pass would be just perfect solution for situation, but...
14. bad GK clearances esp after him being pressed

Arnoldzhu
30-01-2008, 10:10
http://community.sigames.com/customicons/icon14.gif I'm too.

Why can't you? But I don't feel comfortable enough in expressing in English either. I see some mates native speaker here really said what we wanted to say. http://community.sigames.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Anyway, there's something I still missed.

15. There's too many deflections when passing, crossing and shooting now.

16. Players shouldn't shoot the ball in such a hurry even if in tactics "time wasting" is set to 0.

17. There's sometimes this kind of situation: We see someone is just controlling the ball in midfield and dribbling slowly and aimlessly even though his teammate is just beside him. That's the time I begin to worry as I said before.

I maybe we all always wonder at this and/or many other kinds of moment: what the heck is he doing, it just looks dumb. But I am pretty sure that it's because the tactics, the tactics is quite possibly set low tempo, high timewasting, low creative freedom and personally "run with ball" often. So the player just do what the tactics told him to do. But it shouldn't be like this. It's no football. Players shouldn't do inappropriate things so frequently whatever tactics is given.

So putting together, the general feeling is that the tactics influence too much on how players perform in the ME from looks. But in fact the problem is that player in the ME isn't made intelligent and possessing common football knowledge enough. Make them smarter and we'll get a more enjoyable game. And we should be able to feel what moves the player is using instead of guessing what is he doing.

Mitja
30-01-2008, 14:10
a few examples of bad positioning. all this happened in less then 20 minute interval. my closing down setup for DC was 0- back off.

http://img82.imageshack.us/img82/9648/me2nl0.jpg

http://img238.imageshack.us/img238/992/me3ur5.jpg

http://img151.imageshack.us/img151/5681/me1au7.jpg

Mitja
30-01-2008, 15:03
compreing the speed of FM ME, to tonight's match man u/portsmouth, it looks like that match is 2x faster at least (passes especially). ball is deep in man u's half and after a twink of an eye... oooou it's goal. portsmouth still didn't realized match allready started...ooou it's 2-0. what a football... he allready scored 27 goals this saeson http://community.sigames.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_eek.gif

Joor
30-01-2008, 15:04
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Mitja:
a few examples of bad positioning. all this happened in less then 20 minute interval. my closing down setup for DC was 0- back off.

http://img82.imageshack.us/img82/9648/me2nl0.jpg

http://img238.imageshack.us/img238/992/me3ur5.jpg

http://img151.imageshack.us/img151/5681/me1au7.jpg </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

What is your DC's positioning, decisions, anticipation and teamwork . Also do you use man or zone marking ?

heathxxx
30-01-2008, 15:24
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Mitja:
compreing the speed of FM ME, to tonight's match man u/portsmouth, it looks like that match is 2x faster at least (passes especially). ball is deep in man u's half and after a twink of an eye... oooou it's goal. portsmouth still didn't realized match allready started...ooou it's 2-0. what a football... he allready scored 27 goals this saeson http://community.sigames.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_eek.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Because Ronaldo IS the Second Coming!! http://community.sigames.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

George Graham
30-01-2008, 15:37
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Arnoldzhu:
http://community.sigames.com/customicons/icon14.gif I'm too.

Why can't you? But I don't feel comfortable enough in expressing in English either. I see some mates native speaker here really said what we wanted to say. http://community.sigames.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Anyway, there's something I still missed.

15. There's too many deflections when passing, crossing and shooting now.

16. Players shouldn't shoot the ball in such a hurry even if in tactics "time wasting" is set to 0.

17. There's sometimes this kind of situation: We see someone is just controlling the ball in midfield and dribbling slowly and aimlessly even though his teammate is just beside him. That's the time I begin to worry as I said before.

I maybe we all always wonder at this and/or many other kinds of moment: what the heck is he doing, it just looks dumb. But I am pretty sure that it's because the tactics, the tactics is quite possibly set low tempo, high timewasting, low creative freedom and personally "run with ball" often. So the player just do what the tactics told him to do. But it shouldn't be like this. It's no football. Players shouldn't do inappropriate things so frequently whatever tactics is given.

So putting together, the general feeling is that the tactics influence too much on how players perform in the ME from looks. But in fact the problem is that player in the ME isn't made intelligent and possessing common football knowledge enough. Make them smarter and we'll get a more enjoyable game. And we should be able to feel what moves the player is using instead of guessing what is he doing. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Does time-wasting influence players decisions to shoot etc?

If so thats crazy- and another example of where SI have complicated the tactical side for no reason.

Time-wasting should even be a slider- it should be in the form of tickboxes, maybe one to switch it on, and others to select how they time-waste, Eg: Keep ball in corners, delay setpieces, keep possession, even hammer the ball into Row Z (as I read somewhere that in the dying seconds some players do not shoot for goal, rather go as high as they can and try to waste time, whether this is true or not I dont know).

Arnoldzhu
30-01-2008, 23:15
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by George Graham:

Does time-wasting influence players decisions to shoot etc? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Well decrease "time wasting" slider means decrease the time player dwelling the ball. How many times you see the winger crosses the ball to Striker's feet in front of the box and suddenly the striker just shoot the ball, wasting no time. He doesn't control the ball by chest or pass to someone or try to shake his defenders, he just shoot aimlessly. I see a few, of course if you carelessly happened to tweak your tactics somewhere. I don't know, but this is just feeling in the end.

Well, always considering and talking about this is really tiring me. It's just really time-wasting. Better have some rest and go have some fun. Bye! http://community.sigames.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

Mitja
31-01-2008, 01:54
I don't think you understanded him well, Arnoldzhu. he wanted to say it's crazy that timewasting slider influences shooting. it's absolutly ridiculous if it does, especialy on 1-20 scale, WTF I hope it doesn't. and I agree with George time wasting slider is the most questionable of them, for having 20 notches. I don't understand it. there should be 3 or 4 notches, or even better as he said, tickbox. not to mention that time wasting influences tempo now, and you have to have the right combination of both.

Arnoldzhu
31-01-2008, 03:50
Oh, yes, thanx! http://community.sigames.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

I think currently the only thing we can do is pray we'll get a better ME and keep on playing the game if it's not so unplayable. http://community.sigames.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif I think too many of us have been explaining so in detail of what we think of current ME. Hopefully SI might understand but after all they may have their own opinion of the game and tweak ME in their own discretion, so we just sit tight and see what they can provide us. Cheers! http://community.sigames.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_cool.gif

Mitja
31-01-2008, 03:57
well we all (SI included) want better match engine and we have so many opinoums here. they surely looked at this thread. we did what we could, now we can just hope for good resoult. and I'm very optimistic...lol

heathxxx
31-01-2008, 05:33
I'm not going to disrespect anything that has been said here about the match engine, as there are obvious and well known "flaws".

I call them "flaws" rather than "issues" because I'm of the belief that it's always going to be difficult to "perfect" every single aspect of "emulating" realistic movement and plays on a football pitch.

For my own part, I've found that tinkering with the tactics has helped me understand the match engine better - as it is, and work with it. This has not detracted from my enjoyment of FM08, as I'm still of the opinion that overall, it is their best release to date.

I think that SI have in fairness, raised the height of expectations with all the additional features and aspects they've added to the game over the years, therefore it's not surprising that people's own expectations are heightened.

I'm all for any improvements to the game in general that SI make, be it via forthcoming patches or future releases.

I'm sure that they're always looking at ways to improve the match engine, given it's an integral part of the game that we all perhaps feel is THE single most importand aspect.

In my opinion, although I unfortunately don't have the time to participate myself, I believe that the launch of FM Live will iron out alot of issues with the "out of the box" versions of FM in the future. Through FM Live, SI have an instant community of beta testers in the gameplayers themselves. Undoubtably, findings from FM Live will be passed on to the normal releases of FM.

PaulC
01-02-2008, 04:03
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by heathxxx:.
In my opinion, although I unfortunately don't have the time to participate myself, I believe that the launch of FM Live will iron out alot of issues with the "out of the box" versions of FM in the future. Through FM Live, SI have an instant community of beta testers in the gameplayers themselves. Undoubtably, findings from FM Live will be passed on to the normal releases of FM. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

This has already benefitted the work we have done on 802 immensely, via the FML beta.

blayhod
01-02-2008, 04:25
i am really surprised with enthusiasm mitja and others are trying to get an indepth view into a ME.

undoubtly match engine is flawed but i'd like to add that sometimes we are all a bit too subjective. a lot of times i can't believe what are my players doing on the field, but as i often watch real matches i see a lot of stupid mistakes by real players and true stars. from dwelling on the ball, to missing clear cut chances.

so, we should concentrate on real issues like shot on goal ratio and one on one misses or plenty of needless long shots...

there comes another problem as we are "only" users of the game not the creators in its core meaning. so, playing the game as i always did, extended highlights, i can't really tell if all the flaws are present because of my tactics or match engine.

even testing the engine on players part is really questionable as you actually never can tell why is something happening due to immense complexity of football game and all behind it.

to be more illustrative, it means that you can win a game and think it was because you pushed your defense a bit up the field, while it was due to bad luck, morale or team talk of the opponent.

on the next match day you can get thrashed for the same reason you've won your last game and this is the unpredictable part of footy match and managerial career.

despite the flaws. i find the game fun and still manage to have some success, i just hope the makers of the engine get this flaws ironed out.

cheers

Mitja
01-02-2008, 05:21
PaulC http://community.sigames.com/customicons/icon14.gif I just hope you didn't change slider bar options on team instruction, to let's say 4 or 5 http://community.sigames.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Mitja
01-02-2008, 05:48
one thing I was trying to do in last few days is to see why are MCs dwelling on ball and making cyrcles. (BTW, I still don't know what it means, if they are turning around, it shouldn't take 1.5 second to do it), anyway they act a little better (don't dwell so much);

- if their mentality isn't high-&gt; they will make more passes to defenders
- TTB to often-&gt; less dweling for passing forward options.
- low creative freedom-&gt; don't think just pass
- RwB often. it might help for those MCs who are good at dribling, but not a very smart thing to do.
- mixed passing-&gt; more options

I must say I realy tried many, many things and at those instructions it looks a little better. my conclussion is that they are not using the space to run with ball. and I don't mean to drible, just RwB where is room. this was increased with official 8.0.1 but still not enough. of course playing very wide formations and 4-4-2 with arrows makes it even worse due to wingers and striker poor movement- comming for the pass.

I think more use of RwB, should defenetly fix this quite a lot. we see players in real life to:

a) pass as soon as possibile

b) if pass is not availible he runs with ball, uses free space, tries to make free space to pass the ball

c) clear the ball afterall. defenetly not holding the ball and waiting to loose it


all this should also be taken into account of player quality. while any, a little bit better premierleague player, should have the ability (techniqe, decision, composure) to try things a) and b), low quality players should loose the ball and dwell on it more often. as well as clear it in the first place.

Arnoldzhu
01-02-2008, 06:04
So nice to see Paul here http://community.sigames.com/customicons/icon14.gif

I'm so happy today for some personal reason and it really makes me excited seeing the promising future according to Paul the 802 will be a great patch with so much hard work from people gathering info. from FML. Yeah!

No more to say. Good work! Cheers! http://community.sigames.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_cool.gif http://community.sigames.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

Arnoldzhu
01-02-2008, 06:21
I think one area needs to improve greatly is still the movement and position when attacking. I don't hope, however, by furtherly improving attacking we'll get more shooting chances. Of course the defence also needs improving. Thus, we can balance the attacking and defending and it will become more like real life football.

Currently, using normal flat 442, we'll certainly notice that when winger gets the ball, he's always isolated. If you're playing widely, then it appears more obviously. When the winger possess high ability, it's ok cos' he can dribble pass defenders and cross. If he's not so good, quite possiblly he'll be surrounded by 2 or 3 defenders since AI seems to make tactics better in defending.

Well, anyway I'm trying to say that when attacking players should come closer to provide passing options and play co-operation within certain small areas. Irl we can see the attacking through wings is not like what we see in the game. So this must be improved and another one as Mitja said, is the dribble in midfield. Player should take ball forward if there's room in midfield cos' irl it's a great chance for attacking and it's a big mistake for the other side opening such a big leak in center.

Mitja
02-02-2008, 07:23
TIME WASTING SLIDER


most questionable one. is there realy a need to have 20 notches? anyway this my wiew on it.

1. RARELY

this is normal aproach for any team that expects a win in forthcoming match. home or awey. GKs shouldn't leave ball go to goal out if they can catch it, more quick free kicks (jet to see)...


2. MIXED

aproach for teams which don't want to loose in a match. time wasting when apropriate- team is in no hurry. they want a draw or score from counter attack. less quick free kicks...


3. OFTEN

aproach when team's odds are strongly against them, when they'd be more then happy to draw the game or not to get hammered. time wasting also at the end of the narrow matches. team delibertly holds the play at any time. important aspect of this tactic is also to disrupt other team's playing tempo.


I think 3 or 6 notches would be enough. this is important also becouse time wasting slider influences tempo and mentality slider now. with decrease of TW slider wich doesn't affect (directly) tempo and mentality, we would know exactly how much time we want to waste.

Kriss
02-02-2008, 08:15
I'd go even further Mitja, you're either time wasting as a team or not or time wasting as an individual or not.
Imo you need 2 settings for the team yes/no and if you want to be totally realistic you extend that to individual instructions too.

Mitja
02-02-2008, 08:56
http://community.sigames.com/customicons/icon14.gif of course

Arnoldzhu
03-02-2008, 01:52
Has anyone noticed of the file size of FM.exe?

In 8.0 when the game was originally installed the size of FM.exe is about 36MB. But when you updated to 8.0.1 it becomes only about 21MB. So is there a problem? I still think the 8.0 is a different match engine against 8.0.1 which I wildly guess is only an upgrade match engine from 7.0.2. Because it's more consistent and tested. 8.0 ME is great but contains more so-called 'bugs'. The goals are always acceptable even from opponents cos' you feel the scorer is really outperforming. But in 8.0.1 when you concede a goal you always like this: WTF is wrong with our defensive formation.

Joor
03-02-2008, 11:05
This is insane, I just had a game with 52 shot on goal! ? and we only won 0-3 http://community.sigames.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_frown.gif

Joor
03-02-2008, 11:09
http://img160.imageshack.us/img160/8791/crazymatch1dd1.th.jpg (http://img160.imageshack.us/my.php?image=crazymatch1dd1.jpg)
http://img261.imageshack.us/img261/7938/crazymatch2iw0.th.jpg (http://img261.imageshack.us/my.php?image=crazymatch2iw0.jpg)

Joor
03-02-2008, 11:15
Kaka had 19 shot on goal. Well atleast my tactic is working... just release that patch as soon as possible please http://community.sigames.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

http://img339.imageshack.us/img339/7182/crazymatch3ke4.th.jpg (http://img339.imageshack.us/my.php?image=crazymatch3ke4.jpg)

Mitja
03-02-2008, 11:19
I wonder how many shots is a record. I don't play the game at the moment. waiting for patch http://community.sigames.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_frown.gif

Arnoldzhu
05-02-2008, 10:11
Mitja, as to your question in the other post I'd rather still speak it here. Because recently I've been trying to continue playing the game in original version which is 8.0 of course, and I am quite sure it has totally different engine from what we have later in 8.0.1. And that's why I said: people today are really not honest. But of course, it's kind of taking risk for me to dare say this kind of words, since I could be wrong. And I don't know if I should apologize, after all, it is just personal vague feeling. But from the total ME performance I get from 8.0 comparing 8.0.1 and from the file size of FM.exe of 8.0 (36MB) comparing the file size of 8.0.1 (21MB), I think I shouldn't be blamed to have this suspicion and questioning. Yeah, that's my feeling. It's not tweaked, it's just different engine as I can feel. So anyway, I'm just looking forward to the performace of match engine in 8.0.2. Let's keep our fingers crossed.

Mitja
07-02-2008, 11:58
I'm wondering about one thing. just can't understand why are there 6 notches of OWN AREA in closing down slider. what is a definition of own area in FM. does any manager in the world wants his player's to start pressing in own area. this is an serious issue, at least linguistic one.

should't it be more like.

- 1st notch: back off
- 2nd notch: own half......

what do you think?

Arnoldzhu
09-02-2008, 04:34
Yeah, absolutely. The tactic slider system we've got now doens't indicate clearly what results we'll get on the pitch. For example, if I want my fullback to overlap when attacking and come back to hold his position when defending, in real life maybe we just only need to tell the player directly or maybe add some more instructions like: if you feel tired in 2nd half you can decrease the frequency of overlapping. But how do we translate into sliders, I don't know, to be honest. As far as I can see, in 8.0.1 fullback overflapping is much poorer than in 8.0 since they're maybe just different engine as I had pointed out. Anyway, we need and we have to know exactly what kind each effect we'll get when we're moving each notch of those sliders.