Why the forums are so negative and what can be done to avoid that next year

I posted this in brief in a thread about a week ago, but I want to take this oppurtunity to re-post it and expand upon my points.

The first question is easy, there's moaning because a certain number of people feel let down and have decided to register on these forums to complain about it. This would be because the game doesn't live up to their expectations. I'm stating the obvious here, really.

Yet...

Not everyone's complaining about the game. It's not even a minority who aren't complaining. Perhaps a majority of forum users are complaining, but the majority of SI's costumers? No way, they'd've probably got refunds, and the sales data doesn't show that.

What does that show? The game isn't "broken", "useless" or even "unplayable", despite what some may have you believe. Therefore, it stands to reason that the problems aren't entirely with the game. Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying there aren't problems with the game- the ME over powers the short passing style used by a certain Premier League team, transfers still haven't improved much, and it can still be hard to determine what exactly the sliders do (though I've never had problems with it, which is probably more down to luck than judgment...). However, isn't it plausible that it's people's expectations which are too high as opposed to the standard being too low?

Why are the standards so high? Two main reasons, hype from both SI and the users, and to a lesser extent, lack of... clarity? I'm not sure that that's the right phrase, but I'll come to that latter.

Hype

1. From users

The one quote that comes to mind is from around August:

lolgasm wrote

FM08 is the best FM ever, and FM09 will be even better!

One of many, it just happens to be one I recall.

Now, if somebody at that time said that they thought 09 would be rubbish, they'd be told not to judge something until they'd played it. Doesn't the same apply here? Can we really say that a game will be good before it comes out?

There were loads of posts from users between August and the game's release saying how great 09 would be. These were almost completely unfounded. Doesn't that place unnessary pressure on the programmers do deliver a very high quality product?

Then when the features were announced, it was all "Wow, 3D ME! I hope there are lots of animations and it accurate represents football whilst not being too heavy for my PC!" and "Wow, Press Conferences! I hope we get asked a wide variety of questions that don't get repetitive!". It's the same scenario there. It's also, subconciously, raising the hopes and expectations of those who read it.

2. From Staff

Firstly, there was the Che Guevera "revolution rather than evolution" image. Hopes raised dramatically, and I must admit this excited me. This was intended as a clever advertising ploy, and it was. However, it only heaped pressure on, with fans beginning to expect a real major set of changes in the game, more than a 3D ME with isn't particuarly revolutionary at all. Part of my mind was telling me that I was hoping for something that I wasn't going to get, but the prospect of FM improving so dramatically- I wasn't sure how exactly- really excited me.

Then there was the general comments from the SI and Sega staff. These were hyping the game, and hyping all of the features. Again, an advertising tactic. "The ME is great and flows really well, we've tested it 10,000 times a week for a year thanks to FML Beta testing." Result? Everybody thinks that the ME is going to be far better than it was before. Expectations are still rising.

"Press conferences don't get repetitive"

I seem to remember either Juni or Ter guaranteeing that. Unfortunately, a significant number of forum users have said that press conferences are repetitive. This is all after being told that they wouldn't be.

SI were guilty of hyping their excellent product to a standard that it hasn't reached. Sure, they did this for sales, but...

Okay, now onto a minor point that could have been merged in here, but I decided against it:

Lack of clarity resulting in more disappointment

This section refers to the new transfer code.

Miles in a video: We've ripped out the out transfer code and replaced it from scratch, and I think it's a lot better now.

Users on forum: But what have you done?

PaulC: I was involved in the coding of the transfer code, basically we've ripped out our old code and implemented a new one from scratch (I'm going from memory, so sorry for any slight errors. Finding direct quotes and implementing them would have taken more time than writing the thread)

Users: But is it more realistic?

PaulC: Yes.

Now, what needs to be said here is: "We've made it easier to haggle with the AI, but there's still some things that need ironing out. It's not easier to sell players though." or words to that effect, that's just an example. Otherwise, you've got the fans thinking that it will be easy to sell squad players, fees will be extremely realistic, it's easy to haggle with the AI when both buying and selling, contracts work well, swap deals work, and you can present a realistic, structured offer to the AI and it will accept. In reality, the transfer system still doesn't work like that and is unlikely to for some time, because that's pure perfection.

So, what can be done to make next year's release smoother and more enjoyable?

For a start, the forum members and SI need to not hype FM2010. The bigger the hype, the bigger the difference between the hype and the reality, and therefore the bigger the inevitable let down. People are naturally inclined to go over the top about something of this nature, so wouldn't it make sense to try and keep the hype as low as possible?

Also, SI need to make users aware of the problems being experienced with certain features, exactly what stage they're at, and what they do. There's no point claiming that the features are better than they are, you'll only lead to let down.

In conclusion, if next years pre-release hype is kept to a minimum, then we'll have a pleasent surprise when the game comes out as opposed to a massive let down. The tone of the forums will be more positive and the forums will be more enjoyable for SI members to visit and provide feedback on.

Hope that helps . Comments are welcome.

1) Do not use DRM if you are only going to allow activation from day 1 of release. Use a pre-order system so that you don't get a bottleneck (regardless of Ddos attacks or not)

2) Do not say you are completely re-writing a feature when you are infact only adding something minor to it (transfer system - managers still buy stupidly and out of character, except now they will sign one of the same three players in every game, instead of the same player in every game)

3) Do not release a demo that has some horribly obvious bug (injuries) and then say "we don't think there's anything wrong with it".

4) Do not talk about the gold code and then say "i sat down and played the gold version for a few minutes and noticed some bugs that needed fixing" - this indicated that your testing/resolving policy is teh crappiness.

5) Do not just release the same version that you did last year with a retro looking 3d engine and more technical bugs/slower processing times.

6) implement a new tactics system instead of the stupid/oblique/unrealistic/random slider system

7) Do not hype a new feature as being a major improvement when in fact you can only get 1 of 10 questions and reply with the same basic 5 answers each time.

It's always been the same cyclical pattern on the forums. It's no worse this year than any other.

It's always been the same cyclical pattern on the forums. It's no worse this year than any other.

Been here for FM06/07/08/09 - i beg to differ.

There are always moaners and without a perfect product there always will be. It's the same every year, people will always find something and go totally over the top with it.

Unfortunately, thats the way forums work, people have a screename which they can hide behind. That in turn, causes alot of OTT and overly abusive posts.

As for SI not hyping their product, don't they have to? If they come out and say we've tried to fix the transfer system but it's still not 100% right then people will moan.

There are always moaners and without a perfect product there always will be. It's the same every year, people will always find something and go totally over the top with it.

Unfortunately, thats the way forums work, people have a screename which they can hide behind. That in turn, causes alot of OTT and overly abusive posts.

As for SI not hyping their product, don't they have to? If they come out and say we've tried to fix the transfer system but it's still not 100% right then people will moan.

Better to be honest than say it's great when it isn't.

May I use this oppurtunity that anyone who uses this thread to slag off SI or FM will be added to my ignore list.

Better to be honest than say it's great when it isn't.

May I use this oppurtunity that anyone who uses this thread to slag off SI or FM will be added to my ignore list.

Now will you be including constructive criticism in that or just everything?

Hmmm. Well to be honest SCIAG, after 15 years of doing it I kinda hope SI have got reasonably good now.

Whereas they seem to be taking the EA approach of just about getting it playable, then retooling the whole thing so the next three versions can have the defense of "ironing out the bugs". It keeps us buying it. They have absolutely NO incentive to produce the perfect game, because then we wouldn't need to buy it and they'd have to sell ice-creams or something.

So if I have lofty expectations it's that :

The match engine has been bad for a few versions now. It's just the thing that's bad changes each version.

The media has been terrible forever, so this year they totally gave up and brought in the new press conference feature so any complaints can be pointed in the "but it's new code" direction.

The transfer engine has never been great. From CMs "Player not for sale" through CM3/4(?)s "I can change my offer after they've accepted and get players for free", via FMs "He's worth 2m but we want 5, no 6, no 10, no 15" system into this years "Here's 30m for your reserve player and we want 30m for ours" version. Again, it's broken, just in entirely new ways each year. Stating they'd entirely recoded it and then, by some aligning of the planets, ended up with pretty much the same bugs is somewhat disheartening.

Finally to laud the 3D engine as something they've worked on for 3 years, brought in SEGAs gurus, tested endlessly on FML and only released now technology is upto it, and then end up with a complete mess that looks like a game played between 11 blind guys and some Americans, just doesn't cut it.

So perhaps we/I only hype it up because by now we'd hope they'd get it all right. Get one bit of it right. Get a bit of it right occasionally.

If I produced this kind of product every year for a decade, somehow I doubt I'd be employed. Oh wait I'm not ...

VB

Hmmm. Well to be honest SCIAG, after 15 years of doing it I kinda hope SI have got reasonably good now.

Whereas they seem to be taking the EA approach of just about getting it playable, then retooling the whole thing so the next three versions can have the defense of "ironing out the bugs". It keeps us buying it. They have absolutely NO incentive to produce the perfect game, because then we wouldn't need to buy it and they'd have to sell ice-creams or something.

So if I have lofty expectations it's that :

The match engine has been bad for a few versions now. It's just the thing that's bad changes each version.

The media has been terrible forever, so this year they totally gave up and brought in the new press conference feature so any complaints can be pointed in the "but it's new code" direction.

The transfer engine has never been great. From CMs "Player not for sale" through CM3/4(?)s "I can change my offer after they've accepted and get players for free", via FMs "He's worth 2m but we want 5, no 6, no 10, no 15" system into this years "Here's 30m for your reserve player and we want 30m for ours" version. Again, it's broken, just in entirely new ways each year. Stating they'd entirely recoded it and then, by some aligning of the planets, ended up with pretty much the same bugs is somewhat disheartening.

Finally to laud the 3D engine as something they've worked on for 3 years, brought in SEGAs gurus, tested endlessly on FML and only released now technology is upto it, and then end up with a complete mess that looks like a game played between 11 blind guys and some Americans, just doesn't cut it.

So perhaps we/I only hype it up because by now we'd hope they'd get it all right. Get one bit of it right. Get a bit of it right occasionally.

If I produced this kind of product every year for a decade, somehow I doubt I'd be employed. Oh wait I'm not ...

VB

Just brilliant Totally agree.

Better to be honest than say it's great when it isn't.

You just hit the nail on the head there! So why cant people register their displeasure then rather than say its great when in all honesty its not!

You just hit the nail on the head there! So why cant people register their displeasure then rather than say its great when in all honesty its not!

If I was in charge you'd all be banned. Since I am not, I think its great all this free speech and constructive hatred stuff etc.

Seriously though, the forums are fine. Could do with less utterly daft people posting the same threads over and over and over, but on a par with everywhere else I visit.

Age groups and demographics suggest this is as good as it gets with teenagers ..

Age groups and demographics suggest this is as good as it gets with teenagers ..

Have you considered trying the Sanatogen or Steradent forums? Far less teenagers

Now if we can all get back to basking in the glory that was my lengthy, accurate, post I'll be happy

And happy for a Bipolar boy is pretty bloody happy.

Been here for FM06/07/08/09 - i beg to differ.

Been here since 00/01 onwards and had to hands-on deal with it since CM4....the pattern goes back to even then. The volume has increased, but a lot of that is due to more people being online year-on-year than previously. The pattern is still the same though.

it is definitely easier to sell players in this version. loans are much easier as well.

i can't say how realistic the transfer system is though.

I can just imagine the back of the box now....

'FM 10 - We tried, but it's full of bugs!'

IMO - it isn't hype which causes all these problems - it's idiots. Thats the nature of internet forums though, especially one with such a massive userbase. If people learnt to post with a bit of sense then there wouldn't be pathetic bickering in every other thread and people demanding others are sacked, If it was a real life conversation between people and the makers, there wouldn't be half as much abuse.

I can just imagine the back of the box now....

'FM 10 - We tried, but it's full of bugs!'

IMO - it isn't hype which causes all these problems - it's idiots. Thats the nature of internet forums though, especially one with such a massive userbase. If people learnt to post with a bit of sense then there wouldn't be pathetic bickering in every other thread and people demanding others are sacked, If it was a real life conversation between people and the makers, there wouldn't be half as much abuse.

If the software wasn't so buggy (i know games can't be bug free, but come on), there would be less idiots complaining tbh.

Its all very well saying that its just some people making things out to be worse than they are (which is true to some extent) but there's no smoke without fire.

Its also the culture that's built up on these forums in particular.

Person a) has problem/has found a bug/doesn't understand something.

smart ass b) "its your tactics" or "i don't get this, you're don't understand the game" or "read the TT&F to understand how to exploit a flawed ME".

If the software wasn't so buggy (i know games can't be bug free, but come on), there would be less idiots complaining tbh.

Its all very well saying that its just some people making things out to be worse than they are (which is true to some extent) but there's no smoke without fire.

I didn't say anyone was making things out to be worse than they are - the activation was a total **** up and people have the right to moan. What they don't have is the right to come on shouting and swearing and demanding people be sacked for it.

Person a) has problem/has found a bug/doesn't understand something.

smart ass b) "its your tactics" or "i don't get this, you're don't understand the game" or "read the TT&F to understand how to exploit a flawed ME".

I certainly agree with you, but what I will say is that if a sensible post is made, then you generally get sensible answers. But yeah, like I said... idiots

I didn't say anyone was making things out to be worse than they are - the activation was a total **** up and people have the right to moan. What they don't have is the right to come on shouting and swearing and demanding people be sacked for it.

I agree with that. Quite funny (in a sad way) seeing people demand that a forum mod be sacked for the activation issues

This thread was never going to take off...

The points are well made SCIAG but no company is going to stop hyping its product because it leads to annoyed customers, especially when all they do is rant on a forum instead of actually returning it.

Gamers (or 'official' game magazines) love to ruin games with overhype. GTA: San Andreas is a great example.

Don't be so spoilt.

Gamers (or 'official' game magazines) love to ruin games with overhype. GTA: San Andreas is a great example.

Don't be so spoilt.

Meh just been revisiting my Oblivion disappointment and who can argue with hype ..

Bethesda must be the masters of just plain lying about game features though.

No wait. Thats Libellous isnt it? I better retract that.

Oh, hang on. I can prove it. Fallout 3 has 200 different endings - remember?

Thanks Todd! See you in court mate! :thup:

Why the forums are so negative and what can be done to avoid that next year?

Forgive me for oversimplifying SCIAG, but paraphrasing your post: Hype and Confused expectations, and a dose of just plain internet trolliness.

Given those reasons, your solution: Less Hype, More Clarity, makes sense.

I think though that while these are probably advisable, they won't solve the problem of a game forum being 'so negative'. I do agree though that the FM forums are a bit inhospitable at the moment, and I'm glad to see that more moderation is being done. I can think of three things contributing to and perpetuating a hostile conversational environment here off the top of my head.

1. The fans: Loyalty is one of the most noticeable 'qualities' of football fans. This doesn't make for the most rational or even-tempered conversations though. Its fair to point out that there are young fans posting on the forums, but IMO laying the blame at their feet is misguided. Young people can be civil, generally, even on the internet. Being young doesn't make you hostile or rude, etc.. However, there are quite a wide representation of social expectations that find a confluence on the boards. The confusion of mixed social expectations combined with the need for self expression and belonging will always lead to some conflict or other. Its how this is handled that either fans the flames or leads things towards a more cooperative stable state.

2. Inconsistent application of forum rules and guidelines. And at times: Misguided application of forum rules and guidelines.

3. A distinct lack of conversational leadership, or an inconsistent sense of this leadership.

If I were king, I'd beg those people capable of conversational leadership to moderate. Then I'd put them in charge and expand the team of moderators to whatever size naturally takes care of business. I realize that is already happening, but I mention it because I don't think everything is stable yet, and it should be. Some things I've noticed:

A. Closing threads that are boring or slightly off-topic to the moderator. This personalizes things and is totally unnecessary. Wandering threads enable people to socialize in their own way, at their own pace. By shutting these down willy-nilly a message of power is given without a message of tolerance and welcome. It sets the tone as "hostile, power-focused", and guess what? This brings out the trolling posts! Because trolls know they can get reactions from those who are fundamentally insecure.

Then people (myself included) come along and argue with the trolls (for fun in my case) and the moderators stand by and watch, or participate inappropriately. Ugh Ugh.

The message has to be: "Shutting people down inappropriately won't be tolerated". All rules extend from that (such as flaming, trolling, bullying, cursing, etc..). And that includes not shutting down non-direly-offensive posts. Otherwise the message comes across as hypocritical and arbitrary (which it often is) and that the true rule is: "Shutting people down is what people with power do".

These kinds of social messages and leadership are only rarely addressed explicitly, but IF you want to change a large social environment with a handful of people and a typewriter, its useful. The alternative is to try and lead via charisma alone. Kind of difficult to do over the interwebs.

B. Too many infractions before a ban. I'd give people one chance, then suspend them a week for a 2nd infraction. Just a personal preference I suppose.

C. Moving threads or insisting they be reposted elsewhere when a simple answer would suffice. Again, this smacks of power for its own sake. Just answer in a PM and move the post. No need to make a scene.

D. The Wishlist thread. Constipation anyone? If its an open forum then the structure has to reflect what the users are talking about today. Sure, the users respond to structure, but only when the structure responds to them in a way that makes sense.

That might not seem like it has anything to do with hostile users, but I think it does. People see a forum in which their first post is often rebuked or moved, but they see other similar threads left in place. The search feature is difficult to use and lots of people want to help, but moderators and anti-trolls interfere with the day to day Q+A of the newbs and locals.

Anti-trolls! Your job is to help with the Q+A, not pound newbs!

OK, off the rantcycle. But you asked

Well people will always have gripes with something but its better to be constructive then...not the ott stuff. anytime i've a problem there is always help but i find in general the medium of the internet only serves as buffer zone to allow people be obnoxious where they can post what they want. Would they say that kina stuff in person, in a shop or customer services. I doubt it.

Good post. I've said this more or less repeatedly myself, but after a while you just got to accept you aren't a mod and they aren't interested in what you think.

Those who be, be because they are wanted by those who think and plan and decide. That's all there is to it.

As for the tone and format and active/reactive/proactive moderating styles, that's something extensively covered on other forums and places where there are simply no trolls - ever - do spring to mind. Such as the Paradox forums (Crusader Kings especially is fantastically moderated and has been for years) where everything is structured and, put-simply; rudeness, ignorance of the rules of conduct, lack of searching before posting, impetuousness and intolerarance of others opinions are immediately stomped on. Works for me because someone gets paid to make sure it does.

This place has a charm all of its own .. last month I did get a little frustrated with what I saw as a lack of coherent moderation and a pro-active 'conversational' style as you put it. I PM'd Paul C a massive, huge, stonking essay detailing how he should stop being silly and listen to me. The usual knee-jerk rather self-righteous and angry essay. I didn't get a reply ..

Nuff said.

Just go with the flow and don't concern yourselves with that which does not concern you is my advise. I find it very difficult at the best of times, especially when you are confronted with stuff you want to effect, change, or mutate a discussion that has devolved into an argument that with only a few well placed words from the right person, with the right amount of authority, would quickly right itself etc just gets arbitrarily locked. Just the way it is. Got to take the whole concept a lot less personally and give up trying to impose your own ideas passively or actively. One mellows with age and perpetual disappointment.

Occasionally, someone lets me have a go at it .. sometimes it works out. Sometimes it doesn't. The same can be said for pretty much everyone. The way everyone changes and immediately you are their new special bestest mate makes me nauseus - it reminds me of corporate management and/or church. So spare a thought, sometimes they have to be insensetive clods to get the job done and still care enough to come back tomorrow knowing full well everyone now only takes notice of them because they are mods. It can suck.

The thing is hype won't go away. every time a games mag loves a game concept it's hyped up until everyone who reads the mag loves the game them when it's released they are all disappointed, I'm thinking Haze here. This is exactly what happened with FM09 with SI releasing videos on you tube and putting so much hype into the game that some people got their hopes up which is their right and didn't think about the bugs that were in 08.

This is just my two pennies worth now I think I'll try for those 200 endings on fallout 3.

This is just my two pennies worth now I think I'll try for those 200 endings on fallout 3.

Enjoy: http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=qWQJdBXVHiI :thup:

Enjoy: http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=qWQJdBXVHiI :thup:

Lol now that's class

Enjoy: http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=qWQJdBXVHiI :thup:

2 Bazillion Endings? Wow.....this IS Sparta!

Hype has very little to do with it in my opinion. Most of the 'moaners' are fans of the series who have played the game for years and are simply disappointed in the product this year. It's not rocket science - people complain when they are not satisfied and sadly this year a lot of people feel let down for a variety of reasons. At the end of the day the vast majority of moaners are only interested in seeing a better game, even if some do express their opinions badly, so I don't think its sensible to even ask what to do about the moaners - the question should be how to improve the product.

Yeah when you don't have the answer blame it on the "idiots". I often wonder how old some of these mods are. Anyways I've solved my moaning problem by purchasing 07 off amazon.

you'll never avoid negative threads, you can't please all the people all the time. i've only been posting on these forums for a couple of years but in my opinion this is the worst year for negative threads because the product this year has been the poorest. as kickballz said the best way to avoid negative threads is to improve the product. i also agree with lahoward that some of the mods are too eager to close down negative threads and use the 'constructive critism' angle in their defence. as consumers we should all have a right to voice our opinion in any way we see fit, if you don't like/agree with those opinions don't read/post on that particular thread

How did we make it out of the bronze ages?

Glyn is spot on tbh; it is very cyclical and I wouldn't expect anything different next year - it's a game that was once niche but now has broad appeal and, as the saying goes, you can't please everyone. Some people love the retro style of playing (complete a season in a few hours, play on commentary mode, etc), some people like spending hours setting up their tactics. FM tries to cater for both, and consequently not everyone will love the game. I won't pretend I'm in love with FM09, but it's growing on me.

But next year, no matter what, people will complain about FM10. The actual reception to FM09 was pretty good on the forums this year; it was just the activation problems that led to forum meltdown, and Sega and SI have already apologised for that I'm pretty confident the same problems won't arise next year.

I don't expect that less hype would result in a total loss of negativity, but the past two years have been dominated by negativity (something that you'd expect). However, I think that hyping the product enough to advertise it but not enough to drive expectations through the roof, would lower the amount of moaning.

Wakers- I was only referring to mindless ranting, not constructive criticism.

VB- sorry if I sounded like I meant every user hyped the game.

Of course, by March the moaning will be at a minimum and we'll all be looking forward to FM2010...

I thought this year was quite calm, compared to previous years tbh.

as consumers we should all have a right to voice our opinion in any way we see fit, if you don't like/agree with those opinions don't read/post on that particular thread

You do have that right, I believe. Just not here, if your feedback doesn't conform to the forum guidelines. If you want freedom of speech, head for Speakers Corner. Otherwise, in this country, you're always being "moderated" in one way or other.

In terms of the original post, I don't think this year has been too bad. People voice their disappointment reasonably for the most part and that's perfectly acceptable, especially when SI / SEGA drop the ball.

There will never ever be tolerance of abuse or poor behaviour here regardless, however.

so if someone says great game love it - that conforms to forum guidelines, but if someone gives constructive criticism and wants to complain that doesnt conform.

wow great customer care Matt NOT

Constructive criticism has always been welcomed by SI, but saying "i missed 20 chances OMG" won't be, for obvious reasons.

Hmmm. Where did I say that?

There's a stack of constructive criticism all over the forums which is welcome.

Whining and abuse isn't.

That clear enough for you?

so if someone says great game love it - that conforms to forum guidelines, but if someone gives constructive criticism and wants to complain that doesnt conform.

wow great customer care Matt NOT

Thinking about it a bit more - its exactly people like you who cause the problems. Thanks for making my point more effectively than I could.

Nothing useful to say, you just want to have a pop at someone with a "badge".

There's a whole internet out there for that - but it won't be tolerated here.

dont get me wrong i agree with what you are saying its just the way you said about freedom of speech. and anyway freedom of speech doesnt really exist does it, if it did people would be free to make racial/size/colour/religous comments, without punishment. and the world would be near to the end.

and matt i wasnt having a go at you, i dont even know you,

SCIAG, I think that the OP you wrote is the best post I've seen on these forums. Well done:thup:

In short - Finishing the game before you release it = less negative forums.

In short - Finishing the game before you release it = less negative forums.

The words broken and record come to mind Wakers.

I should think by now that most people hear know your opinion, repeating it day in, day out doesnt make it anymore true.

The words broken and record come to mind Wakers.

I should think by now that most people hear know your opinion, repeating it day in, day out doesnt make it anymore true.

Ehm, i don't repeat that every day, but it is relevent to this thread. Its quite simple really.

Ok, every 1.25 days then

Again the game not being finished is your opinion, in my opinion there are bugs that should have been picked up, but thats not down to an incomplete game, its down to poor testing.

Ok, every 1.25 days then

Again the game not being finished is your opinion, in my opinion there are bugs that should have been picked up, but thats not down to an incomplete game, its down to poor testing.

Ah but the testers have said they reported a lot of what we reported. They were just added to a long list of bugs, and only some of the most critical were fixed. Why was that? They didn't have time to fix them before the release date deadline.

Ergo, it wasn't finished. Patch on day 1 also indicates that SI knew they hadn't finished it.

Actually you find sometimes on these forums that you can not be honest or open with regards to certain forum topics and how will SI improve the game if like you stated in this post moaners complain when these people paid for a product which was not up to scratch plain and simple.

This FM09 is going to need at least two more patches before its on the same level of prefection of the other fm series. It all boils down to sega wanting to make bucket loads of money out of people before christmas knowing the product was not worthy of a general release.

Yeah when you don't have the answer blame it on the "idiots". I often wonder how old some of these mods are. Anyways I've solved my moaning problem by purchasing 07 off amazon.

I'm sorry but the people who come on swearing and showing bad attitude are idiots. If you have a problem, put it over in a sensible manner. The majority of people who come on swearing and demanding others lose their jobs wouldn't dare do that IRL. They hide behind a screenname.

so if someone says great game love it - that conforms to forum guidelines, but if someone gives constructive criticism and wants to complain that doesnt conform.

wow great customer care Matt NOT

Constructive critisism is the whole point. If you're constructive, you can put your problems across - no problems. It's the pointless and childish rants which are the problem.