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Why Even My UNBEATEN City Game Has Me Reaching For The Off Button


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For all the problems and bugs this game has, its the actual player physics and Matchday Experience that has me clicking the "QUIT" button.

I can just about cope with the 100's of little things, but the match itself is by far the MOST IMPORTANT aspect of the whole game, yet it is ridiculously and massively flawed.

If i was Managing in the lower echelons, i could at least imagine it had to do with the quality of players at my disposal, but playing in the EPL i can find no logical excuse for the sheer lack of player intelligence and/or player physics and stats issues?, thus, the whole experience is ruined.

Here is just a tiny example of what IMO are completely game stopping issues that render the whole experience null and void of any realism whatsoever?

Here in Pic 1 we see Stoke with a throw in quite deep in their own half and the City players doing their jobs reasonably well.

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Now already in Pic 2 you can see that despite not having the ball in their possession, the City players(namely No 37) has already wandered away from the player he was marking?

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Of course, the ball went straight to Soares the Stoke MC who plays a simple ball to the Striker Fuller, but Richards is already making his way across to nullify the threat.

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Astoundingly, although Fuller(Acc 15 Pace 14) is actually moving towards Richards(Acc 19 Pace 17) Richards cannot make up ANY ground whatsoever?

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As you can see, Richards ends up behind Fuller, having made up NO ground and Fuller is about to slot the ball home under no pressure.

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As you can see, i still won the game 4-3 AND i remain unbeaten in 22 league games, but as far as i'm concerned this is no recompence whatsoever, because the Matchday Experience has become unrecognisable as a game of football, i may as well be watching a game of tennis, as apart from the 22 men on the pitch and a ball, it bears scant resemblance to any game of football i've ever seen?

Please SI, just let me know you are aware of these issues and that plans are already underway to massively improve this area of the game? if not, as a true football fan, i dont see how i can get ANY enjoyment out of the game anymore?

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I dont know if you've looked at repositioning your players when defending throws, it might help a little - possibly setting players to tighter marking may have an effect. p.s. who is 37?

These are NOT tactical issues, they are player physics issues and player intelligence issues, i have tried ALL types of different marking instructions, this actual problem was 10X worse with tight marking, because in spite of anticipation skills, AI strikers ALWAYS react quicker than Human defenders to the point where despite the ball having already being kicked, the defender still moves AWAY from the ball before then doubling back or across to then try to deal with it? (not using offside trap)

And like i said, the above shows 1 or 2 issues, but there are literally hundreds

BTW, 37 is Gareth Bale

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These are NOT tactical issues, they are player physics issues and player intelligence issues, i have tried ALL types of different marking instructions, this actual problem was 10X worse with tight marking, because in spite of anticipation skills, AI strikers ALWAYS react quicker than Human defenders to the point where despite the ball having already being kicked, the defender still moves AWAY from the ball before then doubling back or across to then try to deal with it? (not using offside trap)

And like i said, the above shows 1 or 2 issues, but there are literally hundreds

BTW, 37 is Gareth Bale

I hate this player vs player pace issue, I regularly see players with high pace getting trounced by players with lower pace and... before anyone says "it's your tactics" I see this for both human and AI players. I also see a ball being cleared from a corner to an attacking midfielder who does some kind of awkward sideways shuffle come moonwalk towards the ball that is 5 yards away, only for a defender to come steaming 20 yards of of his box to get to the ball quicker than the midfielder? that confuses me, because surely that is the ME and not the 3d representation? I don't care who you are, IRL if you are good enough to be playing 11 a side, you would always get to that ball first no matter how slow you are a player would have to cover 4 times the amount of ground you have to cover to get there first, the average human can run about 10-15mph, which would mean that said defender would need to run 40-60 mph just to get there at the same time.

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I've said this multiple times in multiple threads. The defenders' AI in the ME is horribly flawed. Their positioning and defending is idiotic/non-existant. Time and time again I see defenders doing incredibly stupid things like MOVING AWAY from the striker to give him room to cut inside before attempting a chase, said chase almost never results in the defender actually disposing of the threat.

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I've said this multiple times in multiple threads. The defenders' AI in the ME is horribly flawed. Their positioning and defending is idiotic/non-existant. Time and time again I see defenders doing incredibly stupid things like MOVING AWAY from the striker to give him room to cut inside before attempting a chase, said chase almost never results in the defender actually disposing of the threat.

Exactly, its so farcical its unwatchable in a footballing context, therefore the game completely loses its appeal.

What becomes the point of going through the motions with all the other game features when Matchday cannot represent even a semi believable game of football?

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i totally totally totally agree with you

theres been really bad problems with the match engine.

Ill get a screenshot, but the other team had a corner, and all of my players got marking up - everything was ok. Then they all suddenly moved away from one player and kind of bunched near the back post area - leaving a 17 yr old player on his debut for blackburn scoring completely unmarked :S

and yeh john carew skinned micah richards on mine - not gonna ever happen is it hahah

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I had my keeper run towards the ball (admittedly it is Gomes) then turn around and go back to the goal, leaving the ball there for the incoming striker to just tap in.

Frustrating really, then the opposition keeper did almost exactly the same thing so it kinda evened out.

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Take notice of the goalkeepers representation in the 2D, its horrifying. Cant begin to explain it, Im just seeing some of the most ******** goalkeeper movements and reactions in all of the top flights.

I always concede 3 or 4 goals a season where my GK will control a lumped clearance from the opposition, but not pick up the ball, then just wait for an opposing forward to come take it from his foot?

Its gotten to the point now that almost EVERY chance the opposition have is from a player physics or player intelligence issue, if not, then its from a set piece.

I have even seen my players put 4 or 5 tackles in, in one opposition attack, but still not get the ball away and/or the dispossed opponent ends up with the ball back at his feet? this is just as frustrating as the more prominent "player just wont bother trying to tackle" issue that has become the norm in 09.

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For all the problems and bugs this game has, its the actual player physics and Matchday Experience that has me clicking the "QUIT" button.

I can just about cope with the 100's of little things, but the match itself is by far the MOST IMPORTANT aspect of the whole game, yet it is ridiculously and massively flawed.

If i was Managing in the lower echelons, i could at least imagine it had to do with the quality of players at my disposal, but playing in the EPL i can find no logical excuse for the sheer lack of player intelligence and/or player physics and stats issues?, thus, the whole experience is ruined.

Here is just a tiny example of what IMO are completely game stopping issues that render the whole experience null and void of any realism whatsoever?

Here in Pic 1 we see Stoke with a throw in quite deep in their own half and the City players doing their jobs reasonably well.

stokegoalpic1to8.jpg

w640.png

Now already in Pic 2 you can see that despite not having the ball in their possession, the City players(namely No 37) has already wandered away from the player he was marking?

stokegoalpic2ga7.jpg

w640.png

Hi,

Reading your post made me think the following...

pic 2, 37 is moving towards the sideline, thus closing down the possible overlap... leaving the other central defender to cope with the lone striker.... makes sense to me

As for the speed issue... its late in the game.. was the striker a sub? what is the defenders fitness like, maybe he was tired?

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Hi,

Reading your post made me think the following...

pic 2, 37 is moving towards the sideline, thus closing down the possible overlap... leaving the other central defender to cope with the lone striker.... makes sense to me

As for the speed issue... its late in the game.. was the striker a sub? what is the defenders fitness like, maybe he was tired?

Its not that at all, it happens all the time, No 37 thinks because our player has got the toe in that he can now forget his defensive duties and get into position for us to attack.

And both Fuller and Richards were both on from the start and neither player had picked up a knock(Richards stamina 17 strength 19 - Fuller stamina 12 strength 14)

This happens constantly, be it the 1st or the 95th minute and there is absolutely NO excuse for it.

I have since discontinued the game, as i just cannot accept what i'm seeing at an intelectual level.

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Hi,

Reading your post made me think the following...

pic 2, 37 is moving towards the sideline, thus closing down the possible overlap... leaving the other central defender to cope with the lone striker.... makes sense to me

As for the speed issue... its late in the game.. was the striker a sub? what is the defenders fitness like, maybe he was tired?

I think you are quite right. 37 just got caught out in the situation, not sure which one he should cover. That sort of things does happen in football.

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I think you are quite right. 37 just got caught out in the situation, not sure which one he should cover. That sort of things does happen in football.

Even if i was to agree with you on this part of the issue for the sake of it(i've seen the same thing under very different circumstances) you must surely still concede that the pace issue is unquestionable and makes the tactical side of the game completely pointless.

For instance - Setting a high d-line because you have a very quick defence is of absolutely no benefit, when the AI player can be massively slower and still cannot be caught?

(again, thats just 1 issue of the 100's that this fault raises)

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You're right - players never, ever make mistakes, even world class ones like Rio Ferdinand and John Terry. Hull never beats Arsenal, Stoke shouldn't beat Arsenal and West Brom couldn't possibly beat Man City. No way can this game be any good with certainties like this being ignored.

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The defending has always been terrible.

I made a post about it last week and got nothing but the usual SI defenders and their comments about how it can't possibly be the game.

OP is quite right in his comments - there sems to be a big problem in with/without ball logic for the all players (an example of strikers is as soon as a defender touches the ball, they stop and move backwards rather than continue their run on goal).

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wow you're crying because micah richards didnt make ground up on fuller and a young leftback didnt defend perfectly in a throw-in situation?

srsly these things will happen irl (not exactly, but similarly). maybe its cos of micah's low concentration stat that he doesn't realise to accelerate in time. lots and lots of reasons neway. lets take into account that bale and richards, albiet having potential, are very young and will make mistakes/misplays. its not like players dont make mistakes because they definitley do.

its a GAME. if your players were to play perfectly, you'd win every game which defeats the challenge. **** like this happens irl football. its what makes FM different from FIFA/PES. there is always an element out of your control/situations and thats ur players. its what i find enjoyable.

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You're right - players never, ever make mistakes, even world class ones like Rio Ferdinand and John Terry. Hull never beats Arsenal, Stoke shouldn't beat Arsenal and West Brom couldn't possibly beat Man City. No way can this game be any good with certainties like this being ignored.

Agreed, in fact you almost took the words out of my mouth!

To the OP, basically what your saying is that is you have defenders that are faster than the attackers, the attackers should never win a head to head? Pure poppycock, there are many real life examples of strikers that aren't that fast being able to score goals, Teddy Sheringham is one. People knew he was slow but his speed of thought was above others so that made up for it. Intellectually, if you cant get you head around the fact that FM works on a NUMBER of variables and not just 2 compared against each other, then perhaps you should keep it switched off.

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Only problem I have is the pace issue. I have Sears in my Scotland save, and he has good pace and acceleration (16 for both) and yet when he's running against poor defenders and yet they all seem to be able to run much faster than him despite having pace attributes of around 10. Sears just seems to jog for the ball all the time, where as on 9.1.1 he actually showed his pace which was nice.

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its a GAME. if your players were to play perfectly, you'd win every game which defeats the challenge. **** like this happens irl football. its what makes FM different from FIFA/PES. there is always an element out of your control/situations and thats ur players. its what i find enjoyable.

I have yet to see the Man City balloon gate scandal from the FA cup the other season replicated though ;)

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mate you are watching dots. the game is not as simple as pace and run. richards could have lost balance, or been skint and fallen. as fuller was in full run richards wasn't going to catch him especially if he has lost a yard by falling. it looks like bale is going to support attack. this could be a concentration issue but when a team has the ball, they rarely stick straight to the man. watch it in 3d and tell me what happens to richards.

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I've noticed this as well (only had the game a few days though, 9.2.0), and have so far been able to convince myself that its a problem in the representation of the match, not so much in the ME itself.

IE, the game calculates that a fast defender somehow loses his marking at some point, and is skinned. But the representation of this by the 3D engine looks like he's decided to have a picnic rather than play football. Its difficult to tell though: ME, or Representation? I suppose the best way to determine this would be to look through the match stats for several matches and see if your players have 'realistic' stats: Passing %, Tackles, Scoreline, etc..

If you generally win the games you should by the margins you should, and for the reasons you should , then the entire problem is in the representation of the match: graphics, animation, even player relative positions. But if you win games for the wrong reasons (all set plays, only wingers scoring, OGs, deflections, longshots, whatever would be 'wrong' for your team), then there is either a tactical or ME problem.

In any event, the representation of defenders getting beaten is unpleasant.

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No disrespect to ANYONE, but if you believe the ME portrays a reasonable game of football then you have absolutely no idea about how the game is played and subsequently, should not be arguing against things you obviously dont understand.

Whether you watch the game in 2D or 3D there is no ignoring basic player skills that are missing from the game, as well as natural player physics, watching World Class players behaving worse than Sunday league footballers is not my idea of a clever, fun or believeable ME.

I'd rather lose games, but at least be watching a believable ME and those of you who will no doubt suggest i play an easier game, should be doing so yourselves, as you obviously have no idea about the fundamentals attached to professional footballers that are completely lacking in this game.

Case in point - How many times in real life do teams like Stoke play 20-30 consecutive passing one touch football? the same can be said about ANY side go who looking for a late equaliser in this game, suddenly despite not being able to string two passes together for 85 minutes they change formation and also into World Class players who can suddenly play perfect football, whereas IRL when teams are trying to claw back late goals they actually go long and direct.

Why attempt to make an argument of something you clearly do not understand?

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No disrespect to ANYONE, but if you believe the ME portrays a reasonable game of football then you have absolutely no idea about how the game is played and subsequently, should not be arguing against things you obviously dont understand.

Oh....ok, i guess i dont understand the match engine now :(

I shall not argue against you because i obviously have no clue what i'm talking about.

I call for everyone else to do the same.

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Oh....ok, i guess i dont understand the match engine now :(

I shall not argue against you because i obviously have no clue what i'm talking about.

I call for everyone else to do the same.

Hes got a point though. whether it be a representation issue or a ME issue there is a problem, so stop defending it like its your baby.

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Without uncertainties in the match engine, the game would become very dull and predictable. I like the fact that my world class defender sometimes doesnt mark his opponent well enough, and ends up getting skinned. Its supposed to represent a real life football match, and without technology where 22 individual human brains can be recreated by SI and implemented into the match engine, the best way to represent a real life football match is to add uncertainty into the engine. This means a player with higher pace wont always get to the ball first in every situation in a match, and someone with 20 jumping and heading may occasionally miss a header.

If you feel you can design a more exact replication of a football match then send your CV to SI and get a job on their development team.

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^ Because he's obviously gone back to the goal after the game, Tom.

You're right - players never, ever make mistakes, even world class ones like Rio Ferdinand and John Terry. Hull never beats Arsenal, Stoke shouldn't beat Arsenal and West Brom couldn't possibly beat Man City. No way can this game be any good with certainties like this being ignored.

Pretty sure this is just being used an example. Defending like this, where players just take up mind-boggling positions or even move the wrong way, seems to happen almost every game, which leads to excessive one on ones, which inevitably leads to a heap of one on one misses. If you watch a long through-ball closely, you'll generally see the person marking the player who gets through stutter slightly, move away from the goal he's defending and/or just slide in behind the attacker who then gets through. Sometimes it's obvious and sometimes it's subtle, but that odd movement is always enough to set the striker through on goal.

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No disrespect to ANYONE, but if you believe the ME portrays a reasonable game of football then you have absolutely no idea about how the game is played and subsequently, should not be arguing against things you obviously dont understand.

Whether you watch the game in 2D or 3D there is no ignoring basic player skills that are missing from the game, as well as natural player physics, watching World Class players behaving worse than Sunday league footballers is not my idea of a clever, fun or believeable ME.

I'd rather lose games, but at least be watching a believable ME and those of you who will no doubt suggest i play an easier game, should be doing so yourselves, as you obviously have no idea about the fundamentals attached to professional footballers that are completely lacking in this game.

Case in point - How many times in real life do teams like Stoke play 20-30 consecutive passing one touch football? the same can be said about ANY side go who looking for a late equaliser in this game, suddenly despite not being able to string two passes together for 85 minutes they change formation and also into World Class players who can suddenly play perfect football, whereas IRL when teams are trying to claw back late goals they actually go long and direct.

Why attempt to make an argument of something you clearly do not understand?

if the AI is strinign 20-30 passes together against you in the last minutes, you are TERRIBLE at changing tactics.

narrow up, slow down tempo, take off forward runs, counterattack run onto ball targetman for last few mins and you should be good.

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Without uncertainties in the match engine, the game would become very dull and predictable. I like the fact that my world class defender sometimes doesnt mark his opponent well enough, and ends up getting skinned. Its supposed to represent a real life football match, and without technology where 22 individual human brains can be recreated by SI and implemented into the match engine, the best way to represent a real life football match is to add uncertainty into the engine. This means a player with higher pace wont always get to the ball first in every situation in a match, and someone with 20 jumping and heading may occasionally miss a header.

If you feel you can design a more exact replication of a football match then send your CV to SI and get a job on their development team.

Another who appears to have missed the point. No one wants a match engine where defenders are flawless and no errors ever occur. But when the errors are basically the same ones every game and are fundamentally wrong, then there are problems. The movement of defenders is a genuine issue that is causing far too many one-one-ones and goals. How many times do we need to see the "he missed his interception and so-and-so made him pay!" line of text?

However, if someone can present me with an example of a centre-half running on the spot for a couple of seconds while the striker he is marking gets through on goal, then I will accept the "but it happened once in real life" line of argument.

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I think the best solution to all of this is to just get over it!

Its a game, its not a real life management training simulation. Its just a GAME. Not all computer games are for everyone. I personally like the game and havnt got a problem with the engine. So its the basic problem of not being able to please everyone.

Thats the answer to it. I'm pleased, and you're not. If SI changes it to how you want it, you'll be pleased, and I won't. If we both are pleased with it, then there will be someone else who won't be.

So just get over it really. Unfortunately for this game you're one of the people who are not pleased with the final product. My sympathies, but you can always get your money back.

End of discussion really.

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Youve also got to remember that Richards has got to turn round which may make him become unbalanced then another thing that I have found is that if you have set an opp instruction to show on the weaker foot the players will jockey the player thus slowing them down I used to concede many goals from this but now I have changed it it none and I am not conceding as many goals from this situation

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Without uncertainties in the match engine, the game would become very dull and predictable. I like the fact that my world class defender sometimes doesnt mark his opponent well enough, and ends up getting skinned. Its supposed to represent a real life football match, and without technology where 22 individual human brains can be recreated by SI and implemented into the match engine, the best way to represent a real life football match is to add uncertainty into the engine. This means a player with higher pace wont always get to the ball first in every situation in a match, and someone with 20 jumping and heading may occasionally miss a header.

If you feel you can design a more exact replication of a football match then send your CV to SI and get a job on their development team.

Again, your completely missing the point, i'm talking fundamentals, positioning, reaction etc, that is what is missing, half of the World Class players in FM09 would not make it into a RL Sunday football team, such is there complete inability to do even the simplest of tasks.

Of course football is unpredictable, so is every sport, but if you ask Sammi Hyppia to run the 100M against Hussain Bolt(for instance) i guarantee you Bolt will win every time, i'm sure you know that yourself, but stick him in FM and he will be lucky to win 70% of the time from the same standing start.

Its like the game has done its sums to predict a result based on overall team stats(plus morale and all the rest of it), yet does not take into consideration individual player stats, so as another for instance MiniME would win 15-20% of headers against Peter Crouch if he were in FM

I'm trying to base my reasoning on extremes, so as to make it easy to follow of course.

I'm not off on some stupid rant and i hope its obvious that i dont find the game too hard?

If like in previous instalments of FM, you were not being forced to watch the games in more detail to try to understand it a little better and having to micro manage, then it would not be so obvious, but because this is the route the programmers chose, it became of utmost importance to improve the ME in accordance with this, but this is absolutely not the case.

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I think the best solution to all of this is to just get over it!

Its a game, its not a real life management training simulation. Its just a GAME. Not all computer games are for everyone. I personally like the game and havnt got a problem with the engine. So its the basic problem of not being able to please everyone.

Thats the answer to it. I'm pleased, and you're not. If SI changes it to how you want it, you'll be pleased, and I won't. If we both are pleased with it, then there will be someone else who won't be.

So just get over it really. Unfortunately for this game you're one of the people who are not pleased with the final product. My sympathies, but you can always get your money back.

End of discussion really.

You see, this is why i suggested those with no idea should not post.

Basically what has happened is that you have a game now that on the one hand insists you have to really think about it, taking your time and making subsequent changes to what is going on, on the pitch, but on the other hand, the ME is still not in an advanced state to actually make this an option.

At the end of the day i dont even know if the problem is tactical or player related, how am i supposed to know? if the only goals i'm conceding is from my World Class pacey defenders getting skinned by slow and useless forwards?

Thats why you cannot simply say "well its only a game" it used to be yes, but SI have tried to turn it into more, but have not made the step up in other vital areas.

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Hmm, thats the difficulty in the whole 3D route SI decided to take. They need to iron out the creases in the engine.

Personally I dont really care though. I think half the fun is the imagination aspect of the game as well. When I see my defender getting skinned, I just imagine that he has tripped or wasnt concentrating enough on the strikers positioning.

When I see players running on the spot I just imagine they're doing the river dance as a way of jeering up the crowd.

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You make sense Hammer1000. Don't bother arguing with people who merely argue against points you have not made or resort to playground bully tactics. Your points are sound.

Thanks mate.

As you've thankfully noticed, i'm not ranting about the game being sh*t, i'm just pointing out fundamental flaws that are having a catastrophic effect on my enjoyment of a game i've been playing for donkeys years and that even the fact that i'm still finding the game relatively easy in spite of this is little recompence for the amount of basic errors i see in every game.

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You make sense Hammer1000. Don't bother arguing with people who merely argue against points you have not made or resort to playground bully tactics. Your points are sound.

Simple - they're fanboys resorting to type when anyone points out the "clear as the nose on the face" flaws that infest this latest iteration - quite humourously depressing to see such blind faith in something so incorrectly wrong.

You can add the "goalkeeper hoof over the top of the defence that a striker runs onto 15 times a game even though you've set the defensive line slider to it's deepest setting" thing to the list

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anyone who thinks the match engine is fine (and i mean fine not great) is either watching his matches in commentary mode, blind or hasn't seen many real life games in his life.

Yeh, because no one can have an opinion that differs from yours can they.

People have to start understanding that people percieve and accept things in different ways, and just because you are not happy with something does not mean that other people can't be either.

Saying the match engine has problems is arbitrary. A problem for one person does not necessarily mean it is a problem for someone else.

This is what SI have to deal with, as do anyone who ever designs or creates a product or service for a number of many different people.

I like the match engine and am happy with it. Maybe its because I dont expect as much from it as others do?

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