FM 2009,,,, a rant!!

I've loved the game since it's incarnation since a mate introduced me to it years and years ago and I bought a PC,,, just to play it!!

I'm also most probably older than most here so have seen the changes from CM to FM and despite it's ups and downs still love the game to it's core. I also manage and coach real life teams so pretty much know my football....... Or I did until FM08.

The problems were numerous and many a thread on here suggested that, but there were still the die hard few who would protect the game no matter what the problem was. I then thought I had it sussed. A WHU V Formation with my beloved Hammers which bought me 3 Premier League Titles and 3 Champions League titles in 6 seasons.

Chuffed to bits I was until I uploaded it in a bid to help others. Then I got a fabulous reply from a well known mod and "oracle" on the game telling me that I was only having success with my tactic because I was taking advantages in "holes" and "deficiencies" in the Match Engine.

Can you believe it?! How would I know how to take advantages? Even if I was, of which I certainly wasn't aware, is this not the way a tactic works in Football? But no, as well as defending the games problems to the hilt he accused me of only getting success by cheating!!!!

That seems to be the main problem here. Once we came to these forums for advice but we now have too many who show this knowledge for the game but seem to knock anyone who has success and fail to help those who ask for help.

The main problem with the game is that too many don't believe that there is a problem. I play a 4-4-2 and my strikers are awful. Ashton and Bellamy. Two strikers that would definitely score at least 1 out of 3 one on ones IRL. Not in the game!! Ashton and Bellamy. Ashton 14 Finishing. Bellamy 13 in the game. Are you sure???!!!!

That is the games problem. It's not the ME, it's not the transfers, it's not the tactics.... It's the player and staff stats that are the problem.

I'm a Hammer, always have been and always will be. I don't have an interest in taking Crawley to the Premier League or spending Man City's millions. I have and always will just play as West Ham. I'm sure that there are hundreds of gamers the same, loyal to the team they support. But the stats in the game are awful. I mean Julien Faubert is my best player?????!!!!!! Steve Clarke as an Assistant is awful. His stats are far worse than when he was at Chelsea in 08,,why? Two good strikers in Ashton and Bellamy can't score,,why? According to Mr. Cappello Matt Upson is 3rd best CB in the England squad but his stats don't refect this in 09,,,why? Kieran Dyer,,,absolutely hopeless,,,why? Robert Green isn't as good as the reserve keeper,,,why? I could go on and on.

I'm sure I'm not the only 1 team player who feels like this. I don't want to buy a whole new squad (not that 1 Million budget would allow me anyway! I would like to try and make the team I have successfull so why are some Clubs made awful and some (eg Arsenal) made superhuman in every single version????

Sorry for the rant, but I just had 58% possession at Old Trafford, more chances, more clear cut chances, more corners, more everthing and still lost 1-0.

And it's not my tactics!!!!!!!!!!

I'm not reading that

Just wait until FM2010

On the issue of the stats, you'd need to take that up with the West Ham researcher in the Data Issues forum.

On your other argument, I have to back the game. I think it would be a much, much bigger flaw if it was easy to add a few players to the West Ham squad and dominate Europe. Right now they're a lower mid-table team and the game reflects that. Zola couldn't just buy a few players and compete with the better teams.

The guy has a point though. It seems that only the very best players are good. A lot of other reknowned, quality players have poor stats or perform badly in the games.

Once on '08 I went to buy Mikael Forssell and found out he had 8 for pace. I mean that's ridiculous he's at least 12 or 13. I appreciate not everyone can be good but equally, regular starters in the Premier League are not mediocre.

IMO and a lot of others Robert Green is the best keeper in England. He shouldn't be rubbish in the games full stop in stats or performance.

I know Zola's squad isn't at UEFA Cup or Champions' League level, but the first team is pretty damn solid. I don't think Sussex Hammer is expecting to win the league, but he just wants it to be fair and realistic that's all.

As for tactics, I'm as useless as the next person but I'd want to be given help if I asked for it.

I can understand that you lost to Man United even though having the best of the chances, because just like any football game, im pretty sure there are scripts in the game for the best clubs to gain advantages and decrease your chances to try and make it realistic that you struggle against the top teams.

Kinda puts me off playing to be honest, knowing that im probably wasting my time and hoping one day that the +35% pass success rate, +40% finishing success etc. doesn't go against me.

Suppose I can still enjoy the game at least, just hate knowing it, that realistically if that happened you should of won pretty easily.

i dont know about scripts?

but i GUARENTEE that si put scripts in the game for arsonel????

the finishing stats you mentioned are fine bud, especially as its only the last few weeks that bellamy has been fantastic. about matthew upson, that is one man's opinion. its not a fact.

btw what would you like the stats to be. they are not exceptional finishers, its their physical side which adds the extra bit to their game but their finishing isn't amazing. 18+ is world class, 15-17 is excellent which they are not.

stop the rants, its a fantastic game and every game is going to have a couple of mistakes, especially one with such a realistic engine

the finishing stats you mentioned are fine bud, especially as its only the last few weeks that bellamy has been fantastic. about matthew upson, that is one man's opinion. its not a fact.

btw what would you like the stats to be. they are not exceptional finishers, its their physical side which adds the extra bit to their game but their finishing isn't amazing. 18+ is world class, 15-17 is excellent which they are not.

stop the rants, its a fantastic game and every game is going to have a couple of mistakes, especially one with such a realistic engine

I think he meant with the stats they have they should be scoring more goals, I don't think (correct me if I'm wrong) he said they were too low.

About those finishing stats.

I believe (my opinion), that potential and current ability play's a part here, Bellamy, let say has a current ability of 155/200, therefore he would be better at finishing than say, Neil Mellor, who has an ability of 120/200 yet has the same finishing skill. By comparison though, it's easy to judge that both have equal finishing, yet this hidden attribute adds towards it. I like to hope.

no it depends how the attributes are distributed using the CA. anyway mellor is a finisher...

About those finishing stats.

I believe (my opinion), that potential and current ability play's a part here, Bellamy, let say has a current ability of 155/200, therefore he would be better at finishing than say, Neil Mellor, who has an ability of 120/200 yet has the same finishing skill. By comparison though, it's easy to judge that both have equal finishing, yet this hidden attribute adds towards it. I like to hope.

If both have 14 in finishing they would be even as finnishers in the game, it would be the other attribuites then who makes one player more efficient in the game..

If both have 14 in finishing they would be even as finnishers in the game, it would be the other attribuites then who makes one player more efficient in the game..

exactly yes

If both have 14 in finishing they would be even as finnishers in the game, it would be the other attribuites then who makes one player more efficient in the game..

exactly yes

Would you say current ability plays any part at all, or any other hidden factors?

I would say Bellamy is a bit to fast on the game, I think he was equal with Obafemi Martins when I checked. Maybe the bellamy of 2003 but I don't reckon now.

I am afraid that it is the ME that is the main problem, Sussex. When it comes to key chances each players abilities doesn't seem to matter at all; players with no strength, jumping or heading will beat those who are far superior. Great crossers can't cross any better than a terrible one. Great finishers can't finish, unless the goal is wide open(quite often they will miss anyway). Fast players can't outrun slow ones and I could go on really.

Once I return from my vacation, I will try to edit my players abilities to 1s, and let them keep their CA, and see if it will make a difference. It wouldn't surprise me one bit if I see no change when it comes to key chances - however it may still affect how many chances I will create.

Maybe these things aren't bugs, because I am sure the aim was that a CC league 2 game will look much the same as a PL one - though I haven't tried this yet either.

On the issue of the stats, you'd need to take that up with the West Ham researcher in the Data Issues forum.

On your other argument, I have to back the game. I think it would be a much, much bigger flaw if it was easy to add a few players to the West Ham squad and dominate Europe. Right now they're a lower mid-table team and the game reflects that. Zola couldn't just buy a few players and compete with the better teams.

Ok top bit fair enough, but not being funny if it's the same guy year in and year out he needs to be fired!!! I'm not asking for superhuman stats in the West Ham team and I'm certainly not asking for Champions League quality but any West Ham supporter knows that Robert Green is a better keeper than the reserve so why are his stats worse?

Wherever Bellamy has played he has always scored goals so the fella who says "he has only come to life in the last few weeks" is wrong. Dyers stats are appaling. I know the fella is injured but when fit he is a good player and Faubert hasn't had a decent game in a Hammers shirt but yet he has the best stats!!! Mark Noble was quality in last years version bit is appalling in this. OK he was better than he should have been last year but he is definitely not as bad as this years game makes out.

Not being funny but who is this researcher??? He can't be a West Ham fan because he clearly doesn't know the players. In FM 2008 we had the Ashton pace 8 routine and the Davenport was the best Centre Back routine along with the reserve keeper being better than Green issue??!!!!

As for players finishing stats. I don't expect every chance to go in but..... I play Sunday football and I can guarantee that if my legs allowed me 3 one on ones in a game I would at least score one of them and I'm a Sunday League player. In FM you have Ashton and Bellamy getting several one on ones in a game but unless you have them having a PPM of rounding the keeper they will not score.

As I say I don't expect them all to go in but if you have a tactic that gives them the opportunity then it's frustrating when it seems the game blocks those opportunities. It makes it worse when you ask them to learn the PPM but they say it wouldn't be a benefit to them!!!!!!!!!

I don't know who the West Ham researcher is and to be honest I'd need to take a close look at the West Ham data myself and do some research to form a real opinion on it. I agree that some of the research in the game isn't perfect and it's really up to people on the forums to help the Head Researchers identify where the problems are. It's still by far the best on the market in terms of research, I'm certain of that.

The issues you have with the "best" players and such might just be a case of your assistant not assessing the players very well, which would match up with your previous comments about Steve Clarke being severely underrated. It would be a good idea to replace him to see if these assessments then change. At least then we'd definitely know the cause.

It's easy to compare players from one team to another, and often there's always something that not everyone agrees with about the attributes. One of which I get annoyed about, is that Joe Hart seems a better keeper than Shay Given, I could understand this in a few years or more but Joe Hart's not been around long, and Given is in his peak, yet to me Hart seems the better keeper when compared, and that's without Hart reaching his possible potential.

Maybe im not comparing them right, but something doesn't seem right, maybe GK attributes are mostly random and low as they would save to many otherwise.

How far have you looked into that comparison? It may be that Given has superior hidden attributes.

How far have you looked into that comparison? It may be that Given has superior hidden attributes.

Yes, I would presume that the hidden attributes hopefully play a part, just goes to show how easy it is to compare attributes, but obviously these hidden attributes are something you'd find out in the course of the game.

Ok top bit fair enough, but not being funny if it's the same guy year in and year out he needs to be fired!!! I'm not asking for superhuman stats in the West Ham team and I'm certainly not asking for Champions League quality but any West Ham supporter knows that Robert Green is a better keeper than the reserve so why are his stats worse?

I'm not playing in the Premier League but I have it in full detail after two seasons. In that time only Jussi Jaaskelaininen has had more MOM's for Premiership goalies than Robert Green. I take it the reserve you keep referring to is the Czech international back up to Petr Cech, Lastuvka? The fact of the matter is that in 2 seasons the AI has picked Green over Latsuvka in every game. I can only assume that, despite their stats being similar, the AI knows that Green is marginally the better player.

As for players finishing stats. I don't expect every chance to go in but..... I play Sunday football and I can guarantee that if my legs allowed me 3 one on ones in a game I would at least score one of them and I'm a Sunday League player. In FM you have Ashton and Bellamy getting several one on ones in a game but unless you have them having a PPM of rounding the keeper they will not score.

Don't mean to be disrespectful but surely you can't compare the quality of a sunday league keeper to that of a PL's? I reckon the Gk's stats too play a big part in making your strikers missing 1 on 1s. On that I mean they (the gks) make themselves "look big" hence putting the strikers off and making them lose composure. You mentioned that you play/coach footie IRL so you should know what I'm saying.

Cheers.

fjhfgfgh one of my defenders just did a gentle backpass (a baby could have reached it and controlled it) to my goalie but as he was going to collect it, the game with it's cheating ways made him stop walking towards it, turn around and just stand there as the ball rolled past him...so ridiculous...i hate this game

I don't think Bellamy deserves a boost to his finishing stat. Yes when he does put a goal away it is usually beautiful but he misses so many chances. This season he wasn't even letting himself get in the box before shooting.

Ashton on the other hand defintely deserves more than 14 if that's what he has (I thought it was 15). He is superb with either foot and technically is up there with the best in England. To the Liverpool supporter who said his physical attributes are what gives him the extra edge, I couldn't disagree more - either talking in game or in real life. He is strong and powerful but he rarely challenges in the air outside the box. He has decent acceleration to get away from players but nothing most top flight strikers don't have. His strength is his brain, much like Teddy Sheringham. I'm certain anyone who actually watches him play will agree, or at least dispute the idea that his physical attributes are what set him apart from other professional players.

On Mark Noble, I haven't actually noticed a drop in his stats so I'm not sure about that. I haven't played as West Ham really so don't know how he performs. He never really developed in my Verona game (2016).

Robert Green doesn't look great but I've yet to see Lastuvka replace him in the West Ham starting lineup in any FM game so maybe he is better than stats suggest.

Matthew Upson is definitely a bit underrated. As is James Collins who attacks the ball is well as any defender in the world.

Also Jack Collison and James Tomkins are relatively underdeveloped in this version. Tomkins is nowhere near Championship starter level, let alone bench material in FM09 which is wrong. Collison has even worse stats considering he has shone for Wales at international level and for West Ham at club level.

Having said all that I'm convinced most supporters of non-top four clubs would have similar issues. It's only the likes of Arsenal and Liverpool who benefit from previously modest players turning into very decent players upon signing for them. Oh and Fulham who finally saw Zamora's strength rating reach double figures this year.

Don't mean to be disrespectful but surely you can't compare the quality of a sunday league keeper to that of a PL's? I reckon the Gk's stats too play a big part in making your strikers missing 1 on 1s. On that I mean they (the gks) make themselves "look big" hence putting the strikers off and making them lose composure. You mentioned that you play/coach footie IRL so you should know what I'm saying.

Cheers.

Yes I see where you are coming from but where you say there is a difference in the quality of the keeper there is also a difference in the quality of the striker.

How many times in FM do you see a striker slot the ball through a goalkeepers legs? Next to none, yet how many times do you see it on Match of the Day? Plenty of times. It's the frequency of a striker just hitting the ball straight at a keeper that is frustrating. And how often are shots in FM poor power wise? The amount of times a player has a chance in the area yet he blazes it high or it slowly trickles pathetically wide is far to regular occurance for "top flight proffessionals".

At the other end of the pitch how many times in FM do you see your defender keeping up with a dribbling striker yet suddenly performs some Strictly Come Dancing move sideways hence losing ground on the striker.

Maybe it's the options the ME gives that is frustrating. If the above defender performed a last ditch sliding tackle but missed it would be more easy to take than just stopping or doing a spin!!! And rather than have the strikers just hit at the goalkeeper have the keeper making a great save or something.

As I say it's the PPM that makes it frustrating because you have seasoned pro's refusing to "take ball round keeper" or "lob keeper" but they still hit it straight at them.

Also the above poster is most correct in his comments about Jack Collison and James Tomkins. It's as if the researcher never heard of them!!

Why do people think that putting "a rant" in their thread titles makes it okay to go on a rant?

Why do people think that putting "a rant" in their thread titles makes it okay to go on a rant?

Just a warning I suppose.

I can't really argue with you on stats as I have never played with West Ham but what I do know, is that stats are inconsistant throughout each edition of Football Manager and it is often based on there clubs. Steve Clark is one example but another is Tevez. While Tevez was at West Ham he was good, but when he went to Man U he suddenly became a top class player in game.

Just a warning I suppose.

Yes, but a rant, by its very nature, is pointless. People shouldn't be ranting. I think some people confuse the term with strongly worded criticism. Strongly worded criticism is fine, but ranting is just a waste of time.

As for the original post, I don't believe it even was a rant.

Yes, but a rant, by its very nature, is pointless. People shouldn't be ranting. I think some people confuse the term with strongly worded criticism. Strongly worded criticism is fine, but ranting is just a waste of time.

As for the original post, I don't believe it even was a rant.

Maybe I should have posted as "FM 2009,,,, strongly worded criticism!!"

Just a warning I suppose.

I can't really argue with you on stats as I have never played with West Ham but what I do know, is that stats are inconsistant throughout each edition of Football Manager and it is often based on there clubs. Steve Clark is one example but another is Tevez. While Tevez was at West Ham he was good, but when he went to Man U he suddenly became a top class player in game.

Yep I totally agree with you there. A prime example was Benayoun. In older versions he was awful whilst at West Ham but became good when going to Liverpool. I can't guarantee it but I wouldn't be surprised if Parker, Bellamy and Neill were better players in older versions at their old Clubs.

fjhfgfgh one of my defenders just did a gentle backpass (a baby could have reached it and controlled it) to my goalie but as he was going to collect it, the game with it's cheating ways made him stop walking towards it, turn around and just stand there as the ball rolled past him...so ridiculous...i hate this game

Tell me about it... a keeper I have - Robert Junior Fernandez - has great stats, and a low Eccentricity (5), yet on three occasions (in 7 games) he has opted to dribble the ball out of his box - Higuita-like - until he gets tackled. I've resorted to playing my sub keeper now, who, despite having a much higher eccentricity level (12), has never don anything of the sort.

On topic:- I agree with the original poster about the WHU stats. Collison (as mentioned) is now getting regular games for WH and Wales, yet is severely under-rated. I was going to loan James Tomkins, until I noticed his shocking stats, and my Assistant (who has great stats btw), told me not to sign him. Yet he gets game time at WH and is a regular in the Championship (on loan).

As for the Leeds ratings (my team), most are pretty good, bar Delph being under-rated (he is Leeds best performer this season - but on FM is about the 7th choice mid) and Beckford. Beckford is easily Championship, if now lower Prem standard IRL, and his finishing is immense. Rarely misses a chance, and his goals are stunning. I can get you a dozen videos showing his ability. Yet (and I'm comparing to the rest of the Leeds team here), he is heavily under-rated.

wtf ashton and bellamy top strikers?

lol yeah their scoring rate irl is up there with thierry henry or shearer

sure this unbiased west ham fan needs them on 20 finishing which they both obviously are

in my opinion belamy and ashton around 14 is accurate

Can I just ask, Who was the well known mod and "oracle" on the game? wwfan?

Or Cleon...

wtf ashton and bellamy top strikers?

lol yeah their scoring rate irl is up there with thierry henry or shearer

sure this unbiased west ham fan needs them on 20 finishing which they both obviously are

in my opinion belamy and ashton around 14 is accurate

Or Cleon...

No Mr. Cleon has been always very helpful.

Amaroq is something of an expert.

wtf ashton and bellamy top strikers?

lol yeah their scoring rate irl is up there with thierry henry or shearer

sure this unbiased west ham fan needs them on 20 finishing which they both obviously are

in my opinion belamy and ashton around 14 is accurate

I really do think you have missed the point. My argument isn't whether they have high finishing stats or not. I'm merely trying to point out that if given chances such as one on ones in the game then they should as Premier League strikers be putting away at least 1 in 3 of those opportunities, but they don't.

But as you mention stats..... When fit Ashton is considered good enough for the England squad and would probably be 4th or 5th choice striker. So if that's the case then technically in the game there should only be 5 English strikers with higher finishing stats than him.

Amaroq is something of an expert.

Yes I suppose but I reckon it is WWfan. Thanks for the welcome in Jez's forum

No Mr. Cleon has been always very helpful.

Who was it then? My money is on wwfan.

IMO and a lot of others Robert Green is the best keeper in England.

Haha, yeahh good one. Those 'others' being your teddy bear collection, right ?

Yes I suppose but I reckon it is WWfan. Thanks for the welcome in Jez's forum

Don't mention the forum among this lot!

Don't mention the forum among this lot!

I shall never speak of it again.

Haha, yeahh good one. Those 'others' being your teddy bear collection, right ?

I'm one of those that believe he is the best english keeper, but there are a few in the Premiership that are better than him.

Robert Green should probably be England's No.1. Not sure how David James is holding on to that spot.

EDIT: I won't continue this matter as it belongs in the footie forum.

Who was it then? My money is on wwfan.

It would be bad form for me to say,,, all water under the bridge!!

I shall never speak of it again.

Oh that rubbish thing

It would be bad form for me to say,,, all water under the bridge!!

Then why dedicate a chunk of your original post to it?

I do sympathise with some of what you say, but it could have been put over slightly better, imo of course.

lol you're overrating how good west ham are irl in ur post.

bellamy/ashton are decent strikers. no where near worldclass IMO. they fairly replicate what they do irl on the game. you want ur players to be good enough for 1st to 6th place finish out of the box but will west ham get into europe this season? next season? season after that? i dont think so personally.

lol you're overrating how good west ham are irl in ur post.

bellamy/ashton are decent strikers. no where near worldclass IMO. they fairly replicate what they do irl on the game. you want ur players to be good enough for 1st to 6th place finish out of the box but will west ham get into europe this season? next season? season after that? i dont think so personally.

Once again you don't seem to have read what I mean.

I am not asking for Bellamy and Ashton to be world class strikers, I am merely making a point that as Premier League standard strikers they should be scoring more frequently the level of chances provided for them in the game.

Chances that more often than not a Sunday League player would score!!

If they both had one chance in a match but missed it I wouldn't grumble. If it was a last ditch tackle I wouldn't grumble, If they had a bad last touch I wouldn't grumble.

What annoys me is that they can be presented 3 or 4 good one on ones in a match and they will either hit it straight at the keeper or it pee rolls wide like the ball is stuck in treacle!!!

Maybe an option to "shoot through legs of keeper" would help this I don't know. All I'm saying is Premier Standard strikers on the whole would NOT miss 3 or 4 one on ones in a match EVERY WEEK!!

Neither Ashton nor Bellamy are exactly prolific though - Bellamy has scored fewer goals than he's had yellow cards this season, and Ashton is good, but he's slow and not particularly determined (I know, I go to the occasion West Ham game). But I don't particularly want to get into a debate about the two players - I take your point that the chances you're shown as having created are often displayed as clear-cut chances and I'd be inclined to slightly agree that we're perhaps being shown too many of these chances.