Jump to content

Suggestion/Discussion - Improvements to the Training Module


Recommended Posts

First of all, apologies for not making a hugely detailed post about exactly what I think the training module should look like, the main reason I'm not doing that is simply because I just don't know what I want. All I know is that the current training module could be better and I want to hear your ideas.

One thing I would like to see is the manager having more control over which attributes a player is working on. A perfect example of where this is going wrong is the 'set pieces' training section. For my tactics, it is fairly important that my full backs can attack and send decent crosses in, to train them to do that I also end up with them working on penalties and free kicks. This is nonsense. If I am able to create a specific training schedule for my full backs, why should they be working on penalties just because I want them to be working on their crosses?

One suggestion I have is that for each player, rather like suggesting PPMs, we should be able to suggest one attribute that a player can work on in training. This wouldn't really be applicable to the mental attributes and maybe not to the physical attributes, but the technical attributes (apart from possibly technique) are all things I would imagine footballers could improve on with practice in training.

My footballing knowledge in real life is pretty limited in this area, so is there anyone out there who has any experience of how professional footballers train in real life that can make any suggestions on how to improve training in FM?

Link to post
Share on other sites

I said in my testing post that I felt the one area where Football Manager 2009 really lacks in is the training module. I agree with everything you have stated above. There definitely needs to be improvements as the sliders simply do not give enough depth in what you are trying to train. But I, like you, do not know exacly what I would to be put in, in place of the sliders.

Link to post
Share on other sites

i really like daf's suggestion of improving one stat, especially as i've seen quite a few regens with good stats, apart from 3 for passing or something like that. as the game stands i know that he'll never get to a decent passing standard so i don't bother signing him.

good idea :thup:

Link to post
Share on other sites

first off good thread idea dafuge dude. :thup:

my idea for training is this:

when you click training your taken to a 3D training pitch, where parts of the pitch are the different areas of training, and the players are listed in a scroll box with a drop down box next to their names with each training schedule on them.

now lets think about training itself- if you've chosen 4 players to do passing, you will see visually in 3D 4 players in the middle of pitch passing the ball to each other, sometimes missing the ball.(if they are not training well).

now how do you know that a player has improved. well my idea is a is mouse click on player (same way as in match to see name) where you will get instead of just name you get +/- stats for passing stats.

Link to post
Share on other sites

I've suggested that one in the past, custom training groupings might be a good idea.

I'm starting to form an idea.

You have a training schedule ( set out with sliders the way the current one is) with 7 ( or however many) blank gaps where Aerobic, Strength, Tactics are currently.

Each one has a drop down list where you can chose what you want to put in there. So in your list is Aerobic, Strength, Tactics and then 1-3 ( I'm not sure about the number) Customs ( which you can rename.)

You can select the attributes each custom trains ( the less attributes you train, the more effective it is.)

So you'd end up with a training schedule like this:

Strength

Aerobic

Custom 1 ( positioning + concentration)

Custom 2 ( finishing + long shots)

Attack

Defending

Custom 3 ( crossing + dribbling)

You probably couldn't train all the attributes though, like Work Rate, concentration and determination couldn't be trained.

Thoughts?

Link to post
Share on other sites

I think this goes back to tactics setup and the fact that we as a fan base have grown weary of using sliders to put our footballing ideas in the game. I would love to see a revamped training module along with the rest of the game so that sliders only appear in negotiations and match speed sliders.

With that said, I don't really have any ideas, other than making the entire input system different, leaning more towards verbal commands that do exactly what they say, like "Fabregas, work on Passing" or "Van Persie, dribble through some cones".

A spreadsheet of training schedules could also work, but without the right input, it could soon become tedious to deal with. (unless you can allow the Asst. Man. to take care of it)

Link to post
Share on other sites

The thing is, for balancing between different quantities of something (i.e. training areas), a bank of sliders is the correct way to do it. Using a different (and presumably less effective) system just because people don't like sliders in another area of the game is a stupid way forward.

Link to post
Share on other sites

I quite enjoy the 'spreadsheet' approach to training, tailoring my training schedules to fit my players needs according to attributes needed for their positions, but I'm just not convinced with the way it is.

I want total control, being able to work on exactly which attributes I want, but at the same time I'm not not convinced that is the way it should be.

How do players train in real life? Does anyone know what (for example) Premier League players go through weekly?

I should add that I preferred the old system with the 'piggy in the middle on a Wednesday', 'tactics on a Friday' approach.

Link to post
Share on other sites

I should add that I preferred the old system with the 'piggy in the middle on a Wednesday', 'tactics on a Friday' approach.

I'm pretty sure that the old system was just a different interface on the slider system we have now. It's just that the amounts of each training area were determined by which activities you had placed down, rather than the sliders. So it's just an unnecesarily complicated interface for something that is now simple.

For a system like the old one to actually work properly, you'd need to tailor each week individually (i.e. one week you just have a saturday game, the next week you have saturday and tuesday games, the next week you have no games and so on, plus altering the overall workload as the season progressed). So it becomes a micromanagement nightmare.

Link to post
Share on other sites

I'd have thought the person in charge of training ( wether it be manager, ass man, coaches) sets players into groups to train for particular things, with the group sizing varying depending on who needs the training.

I don't think it would work though, for two reasons.

1. It's too hands on. Ideally you want something you can set up at the start of the game, and then leave it, only adding players to each group.

2. In real life players don't have attributes, and they're much more likely to train tactical according to the next game e.g. practicing exploiting an opponents weakness, and you can't really do that in Fm where the whole idea of training is to increase the attributes.

Link to post
Share on other sites

I'm pretty sure that the old system was just a different interface on the slider system we have now. It's just that the amounts of each training area were determined by which activities you had placed down, rather than the sliders. So it's just an unnecesarily complicated interface for something that is now simple.

Probably, just with the addition of when the players were doing it. Saying that, the old system felt more realistic to me with the way coaches were assigned. With the old system you knew your players were all out doing cross country running under the supervision of your 'fitness' coach on a Monday morning. With the current system, the fitness coach has an input to multiple groups of players at unknown times during the week, with only the coach assignment screen letting you know how busy they are.

For a system like the old one to actually work properly, you'd need to tailor each week individually (i.e. one week you just have a saturday game, the next week you have saturday and tuesday games, the next week you have no games and so on, plus altering the overall workload as the season progressed). So it becomes a micromanagement nightmare.

I think that was the major problem with the old system, it just didn't work when the match days changed.

I suppose what we have is a compromise between 'realism' (whatever that is) and a 'spreadsheet' approach to training. What I really want to hear is what actually goes on at Premier League clubs (for example) in training. I'm literally torn between the two, and unhappy about that. I think I'd prefer a system that is one or the other.

Link to post
Share on other sites

Mm training is nothing like FM in most RL teams either tbf, when I played for the Blues academy (Birmingham, not Chelsea :( lol), about 3 years ago we used to just do team drills all the time and also spend alot of the time improving fitness and in the gym, not just in pre season but throughout the season. Also from what I saw of the first team when I trained at Wast Hills and got the chance to watch was that the team do collective training sessions together, not the defence going off and training together and the forwards, which is basically what it is atm in FM.

Link to post
Share on other sites

If i remember rightly on the old system you didnt train on a match day and you had the option to not train the day after a match? What happened to that? Are we to accept that our players train every day including match days? Or do they get 1 or 2 days off around a match?

It kinda feels like it took a step backwards by simplifying everything. The old system of assigning different activities for each day was an allmighty mother of a nuisance when you first started but after you sorted and saved them there wasnt a problem.

On 09 i've been wondering why you can see that a player is spending 10% of training time on a new position or skill but you cant alter it? IRL a manager can surely choose how long he wants someone to spend working on a specific area.

Does Ray Houghton still work with SI on the tactics side of things? If so, surely he could have a good input on the training at professional clubs.

Link to post
Share on other sites

I'm pretty sure that the old system was just a different interface on the slider system we have now. It's just that the amounts of each training area were determined by which activities you had placed down, rather than the sliders. So it's just an unnecesarily complicated interface for something that is now simple.

For a system like the old one to actually work properly, you'd need to tailor each week individually (i.e. one week you just have a saturday game, the next week you have saturday and tuesday games, the next week you have no games and so on, plus altering the overall workload as the season progressed). So it becomes a micromanagement nightmare.

I like the idea, though just as the person said above it is a micromanagement nightmare. It may best if they introduced a couple more sliders, seems simple enough. As it won't need a complete overhaul as some additional sliders might be the way forward.

I remember the old CM I think it was the old Championship Manager game. Choosing who was going to do cross coutry runs, who was going to play 5-a-side was nice, though in real playing terms, was I right bloomin' pain in the rear. I maybe wrong that the sliders were introduced/bourne in FM '05 Then I got hooked on the game, as it felt that there was some reaction to my actions. The previous method was a mess. But I was able to enjoy the game then.

I think sliders are ideal, for the format we have. But what to add...... What is there to add. The training scheduals are tiered from Goalkeeping to Shoooting, from what I can gather. So; would it be best to say just have another slider for not as 'specific' but as vague, maybe a slider for the attacking midfielders and the stikers to use, then another for either the defenders or the defensive or central midfield.

I hope I have made myself clear, I do tend to waffle. I mean mabe one or two more sliders would fit into the game we have now, but what to add. Its vague-ish now, its still needs to remain vauge, at least leave us with an inklin to what we are training the players to do.

Good post by the way :)

Link to post
Share on other sites

I would prefer a training system in which you could concentrate on the important things.

Fitness - that's something for the fitness coaches and the assistant manager. They should give you reports and you should be able to set special training for unfit players.

Tactic - Special training if you change your tactics or trying to add another tactic.

Free-kicks and corners - The manager does choose from some options and select the players who should try the different variations

Everything else: You choose the balance between fitness and technical training for every player.

And you should be able to ask the board for training camps.

Link to post
Share on other sites

As mentioned already the training system used in FM05 was far superior the sytem we have now.

I realise it had it's flaws, and it was possible to create a schedule that overtrained players without penalty, but surely for a team of professional software writers that was FIXABLE ??.

The training module didnt just take a step backwards from 05 to 07, it plummeted down a mountainside hitting every rock on the way.

Link to post
Share on other sites

What was different between training now, and Fm05's?

The old system involved assigning players to a weekly schedule of different training routines, so for example you could put your fitness training the start of the week and your tactical training and studying of opponents videos at the end of the week, before the match.

Link to post
Share on other sites

Maybe you could group attributes into groups yourself, and then say I want Them to work on groups 1,3 and 4

I think thats a great idea. I would imagine in real life coaches would work on specific areas for certain players depending on what they think they need, as Dafuge said in the original post about full backs, this wouldn't happen in real life.

Link to post
Share on other sites

The problem is, well I think the old game method of training with activities was ideal, as it was clearer to me in what the players were training to do. The sliders were not as clear. Though they seemed to be more intensive, much more so, when using the activity scheduals of the slider training scheduals.

I liked the sliders I don't why, it seems I had more of a grip on the players training scheduals, if they could revert back to the older activity training sceduals that would be ideal.

But how about you have activities training activities and sliders too, why not have the best of both worlds.

But I am unsure how the two can be merged. Reaching the happy medium would be ideal. As in the vaugness, of the current format isn't so stressfull on the players, though the activity format was ace, as I would be able to paint a mental picture. With the sliders I have no idea, for all I know I could be training a central defender to me effective as a attacking midfielder. This definately needs to be improved.

Link to post
Share on other sites

I'd prefer a weekly timetable of what your team was to do set out like this:

---------8:00-9:30-------9:45-10:30-------10:30-11:30-------2:30-3:30--------3:30-4:30----------4:30-5:00

Mon-----Fit/Agi/Spe------Ball Con/Pass-----Cross/Att/Pass-----Sma Sid Games---Tact/Shadow Play---Att V Def

Tue

Wed

Thu

Fri

Sat-----------------Game Day---------------------Game Day----------------------Pool Period----------------------

Sun-------Pool Period-------Pool--------Mental What Went Wrong--------------------Rest-----------------------

Didnt fill thw whole table ot but you get my idea this could easily be implemented though using drop down menu's

By selecting crossing you would work on crossing,attacking,fininshing and headers for attackers and by being a defender you would work on defending,positioning, heading, and communication.

Link to post
Share on other sites

hehe- this was in FM 2 or 3 years ago it was decided it was "too confusing" or something along those lines and simplified to what you have now, which is a little too simple.

It is a fine system- we do not need to choose whether to play keep uppy or 5 a side, but what we do need is to be able to focus on attributes more general than the 5 available.

It is currently a joke that despite the complaints last year we still can't train crossing without also training a players set piece taking.

Keep it as it is but have more individual attribute trainers- the coaches can decide what exercises to do i don't care that's a waste of time

Link to post
Share on other sites

I would love to see an addition to the current system, where you could tell each player to focus on a specific area stat-wise for every slider (attacking, defensive etc.). That way you would be able to let fullbacks focus on crossing, and defensive midfielders on long shots and so on. Another area where this would be incredible, it could let the manager make the decision if you want the player to focus on marking or positioning (man-marking or zonal)...which I might add, is mindbuggling why we cant do that atm!

Of course you should be able to leave it blank, if you wanted a more allround training in the given area.

Link to post
Share on other sites

first off good thread idea dafuge dude. :thup:

my idea for training is this:

when you click training your taken to a 3D training pitch, where parts of the pitch are the different areas of training, and the players are listed in a scroll box with a drop down box next to their names with each training schedule on them.

now lets think about training itself- if you've chosen 4 players to do passing, you will see visually in 3D 4 players in the middle of pitch passing the ball to each other, sometimes missing the ball.(if they are not training well).

now how do you know that a player has improved. well my idea is a is mouse click on player (same way as in match to see name) where you will get instead of just name you get +/- stats for passing stats.

i like this idea

and also husty's post

i think these are the best but i dont mind the training at the moment

its not a game breaker

Link to post
Share on other sites

How about when you click on a slider, you get a screen or widget or whatever where you divide you time by percentage between the attributes. For example, if you wanted to only focus on crossing in the set piece slider, you'd just give the crossing attribute 100% and the rest 0.

Might be a bit more micromanagement, but it'd give a bit more control.

Link to post
Share on other sites

It is currently a joke that despite the complaints last year we still can't train crossing without also training a players set piece taking.

Where crossing should be placed, [Attacking] or [set Pieces], has been debated a lot. even if all they do is move Crossing OUT of set-pieces it's a step in the right direction.

Link to post
Share on other sites

I think training almost completely misses the point. Training is just an attribute collecting exercise at the moment but does not have any bearing on the match at the end of the week.

We should still have schedules similar to those we have now, with a few tweaks to make it possible to be more specialised. You could train as now but select 2 or 3 attributes for each player that they pay special attention to, so you can create a long throw full back without having to make him practice taking corners.

In addition to that there should be team tactics based choices. These would have a direct bearing on the team's ability to perform to your tactical instructions in the match. Some areas might be:

Closing Down (whole team)

Offside (defence)

Attacking Corners (whole team)

Defending Corners (whole team)

Breaking offside (midfield and attack)

Passing game (whole team - choose long / short, quick slow)

Creativity (attack and midfield - work on general strategies to gain openings in open play)

Playing on the counter (whole team - improves positions and passing when breaking etc)

Homework (whole team - looking at videos so you can anticipate opposition tactics and moves etc)

etc etc

You can devote training time to these as you want your team to play. The more offside you practice then the better the defensive unit as a whole performs on offsides in matches etc. The opportunity cost of this is that you won't have time to develop other aspects of team play. You can do anything, but you can't do everything. These drills would not improve attributes per se, but team cohesiveness in these areas would be improved within the match.

Link to post
Share on other sites

1st off, a simple change that would really help the game:

Have the default training be common-sensical and already set. No 'lump everyone in the same routine, except GK's', but auto-train players by position. Put a rubber-band around the training so that mostly players and staff are assigned decently, and so that sliders are roughly where they should be to play the basic 4-4-2. 10000000s of hours saved. Thanks.

Additionally, perhaps take into account the training staff: Good staff train players accurately, by default. But also they could specialize in certain styles or tactical training (see below). Head training coaches might significantly influence the general kind of training that happens at a club. This gives the staff personality a potentially important but passive role to play, by default.

I think training almost completely misses the point. Training is just an attribute collecting exercise at the moment but does not have any bearing on the match at the end of the week.

[...]

In addition to that there should be team tactics based choices. These would have a direct bearing on the team's ability to perform to your tactical instructions in the match. Some areas might be:

Closing Down (whole team)

Offside (defence)

Attacking Corners (whole team)

Defending Corners (whole team)

Breaking offside (midfield and attack)

Passing game (whole team - choose long / short, quick slow)

Creativity (attack and midfield - work on general strategies to gain openings in open play)

Playing on the counter (whole team - improves positions and passing when breaking etc)

Homework (whole team - looking at videos so you can anticipate opposition tactics and moves etc)

etc etc

(my bold)

This is just about what I was thinking. But then I thought: How would this data be saved by the game? Would these reflect additional player stats? This means a bigger DB, which seems unlikely. Or maybe these tactical-training stats could be part of a team DB entry. This would save on DB space (as many teams could leave this blank, and there are far fewer teams than players), but might limit the impact of such a system.

Why not just merge this into the teams "tactical familiarity" stats, however they are recorded.

1. Team trains to play certain kinds of tactics.

2. Team gets better at certain aspects of the tactic

-Midfield players increase passing percentage to each other via 'triangle' practice, for instance.

-Fullbacks are more apt to 'find space' to join a wide attack.

-Targetmen get better at layoffs to familiar runs of familiar players

-Etc..

3. Team performance under tactics that directly emerge from these set-plays and drills increases towards a maximum. This maximum acts like a bonus to performance. Or, in a more negative way of stating things: Penalties for being complete strangers on the pitch are gradually reduced. This 'overall tactical cohesion' is reflected in a single team stat which can be found on the tactics page. As the manager sets up tactics that are familiar, this number or bar increases. As wildly different tactics are employed this number is reduced. This will help players understand how well their players are utilizing the current set-up.

4. Player 'versatility' can now mean something other than ambidextrousness. Some players play well in familiar situations. Some are equally adept in unfamiliar situations. In either case, a team playing a system familiar to them should have an edge. This can be reflected from the ground up via training such that staff+training style --> tactic --> kind of performance observable on the pitch.

........

Otherwise, I don't think the slider system is too bad. Attributes are the meat and potatoes of FM. But indirect control should be the rule, not more direct control, IMO. Some players will learn 'bravery' under some drills. Some might not until a certain game or life situation sparks their courage. Training and drills can encourage certain attributes, but not guarantee it (except perhaps basic fitness). Likewise, most real training exercises focus on several skills at once:

Set Pieces: Anticipation, Teamwork, Bravery, Agility, Strength, etc..

Passing Drill: Passing, Teamwork, Anticipation, etc..

By keeping training a bit more realistic and usually general, we do have less control over attributes. But I think something is gained thereby. Still, with a huge training center and expert staff, you'd think a player could work on 1 attribute at a time. But this should be the exception, and at a cost: The cost of training with the team, or additional stress, etc..

Link to post
Share on other sites

How about when you click on a slider, you get a screen or widget or whatever where you divide you time by percentage between the attributes. For example, if you wanted to only focus on crossing in the set piece slider, you'd just give the crossing attribute 100% and the rest 0.

Might be a bit more micromanagement, but it'd give a bit more control.

I personally think this is the best idea yet.

Link to post
Share on other sites

How about when you click on a slider, you get a screen or widget or whatever where you divide you time by percentage between the attributes. For example, if you wanted to only focus on crossing in the set piece slider, you'd just give the crossing attribute 100% and the rest 0.

Might be a bit more micromanagement, but it'd give a bit more control.

Like Whoopy, I like this idea.

The way training works as a system at the moment, in my opinion is fine. However you don't get the ability to say to a player " I want you to work hard on your crossing" which a manager would get. But using starshadow's system you would.

The problem with having too much tactical training as training options, like somebody suggested above, is it gets to complicated. I know it's a simple idea in theory, but I'm not too sure it would work in practice. Firstly you'd have the people who don't use training at all. If they weren't tactically training in a that suited their tactic, what would happen. Would they get worse, stay the same? Secondly, I feel it would be a bit messy. You'd have to have someway of coaching all the attributes as well. And then you'd have to divide your time up between the two.

However having just ruthlessly attacked that idea, i think they key sentence in it is "I think training almost completely misses the point. Training is just an attribute collecting exercise at the moment but does not have any bearing on the match at the end of the week."

Now I think eventually, this should come into the game. However I think that the tactics side of the game should probably be improved first.

Oh and one other thing.

When you train under the " tactics" slider at the moment, does that increase how your team performs to your tactical instructions? If not, I think it probably should be.

Link to post
Share on other sites

There sould definately be a change to he way you hire your back-room staff, in order to reflect the IRL situations.

We see that most of the teams have just one first team coach (and sometimes an assistant 1st team coach) , and the other staff is responsible for specific aspects of training - fitness, technical analysis, goalkeeping. There's also a team doctor and several physios to deal with injuries.

So the current fm model where you can hire numerous coaches to train everything , is wrong and needs to be changed. There should be a different and more specific way to assign each coach to the different areas of a player's training.

Link to post
Share on other sites

Training nowadays has a large influence on how strong a side is tactically but this doesn't seem to show in the game. Many coaches, especially in international football where time is limited, work on different formations, transition and the overall game plan for an upcoming match or tournament.

I think training needs to influence how well a side does a certain thing. If you practice a lot of set pieces, well your side should be solid in those situations. If you prefer to not be too harsh on fitness training but on tactical side, come season time your team should be a less fitter side who is tactically ahead though in knowing how you want them to play.

Link to post
Share on other sites

  • 2 weeks later...

I think that in addition to what the training is now (which i think is not too bad), the user should have the ability to tell each player to work individually on up to 3 (or however many) specific attributes so that they can really improve on their weaknesses. Of course certain attributes (i.e. determination) cannot be improved as they are part of unique player personalities

Link to post
Share on other sites

and also, there should be a "team" slider that is responsible for how much the team should work as a unit to improve the players being able to work together, or the ability to learn new formations and tactics. So that when i take over a new team, when i introduce a new tactic midway through the season, or if my players just don't seem to get along on the field i can up this slider to try to solve it, in expense of the other sliders of course

Link to post
Share on other sites

  • 7 months later...

The current system is fine, just needs some tweaking. I would actually prefer a more simple approach:

Fitness - improves physical attributes and possibly injury propensity.

Tactics - Improves a teams tactical cohesion. (Time spent here would be universal across the team.)

Defensive drills - Improves a bunch of attributes.

Offensive drills - Improves a bunch of attributes (including crossing and penalties).

Goalkeeping drills - Improves a bunch of attributes.

Custom drills - I like this idea, could focus on as many attributes as possible, with fewer being more efficient.

Link to post
Share on other sites

Archived

This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.

  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    • No registered users viewing this page.
×
×
  • Create New...