Stops Play! What is it?

In the preferred moves section...there is a stops play. What is it? Am i right in thinking it is for defenders/defensive midfielders mainly who like to break up play, make blocks etc etc? Or am i way of the mark?

In the preferred moves section...there is a stops play. What is it? Am i right in thinking it is for defenders/defensive midfielders mainly who like to break up play, make blocks etc etc? Or am i way of the mark?

It's when a player gets fed up, tackles the referee and grabs the whistle and blows it.

Good question actually, I'd like to know what the difference between Stops Play and Dwells on Ball or even Hold up Ball, is.

shefki yes , i think that you think correctly

Dwells on the ball is a RIO FERDINAND option. As he seems to do it often ( except when he plays in goal ). It's when a player has the ball but doesn't do anything with it and keeps hold off it for too long and another player tackles him. Glen Johnson does it alot also. Hold up the ball is for strikers who play on their own. They keep it (under control) and wait for wingers and midfielders to join the attack. Mr notso BIG...thank you. I think i am correct also.

the tactic is often used in defensive midfeilds or MC this allows the attacks and wingers to run into position before he plays the ball. its basicaly used when a ball comes out of a corner kick and its 2 against 1 in the counter attack

Micheal has picked this up for me :S he seems to dewell on the ball around the centre spot then either makes a killer pass OR just goes and gets tackled .. but he's done this so often now that he's trained himself to run back and get the ball back unlike in his first season he just stood there like a bum and hoped the opposition didn't score

so wat does break up play do for a player?

Stops play is a move where a playmaker will get his foot on the ball and look up to see how he can dictate the play with a killer pass etc.

I thought that it suited a defenders style of play but found a list by chance detailing each PPM by SI when they introduced it in FM 06. Have searched for it to no avail.

PPM list and description.

Found it!

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by FireStar:

PPM list and description.

Found it! </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Good find. It's cleared up quite a few things for me.

Thanks. No worries. It makes a lot of sense but I think that some of the moves are generic rather than specific.

For example a defender/midfielder or attacker could all play short simple passess most of the game. This isn't to say they are afraid of playing a killer ball.

Maybe role specific attributes could be used with an overlaop for some of the positions or where a player can play in more than one position. Although that might be too regimented?

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by FireStar:

Maybe role specific attributes could be used with an overlaop for some of the positions or where a player can play in more than one position. Although that might be too regimented? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Well, I've been proposing (along with many others) the implementation of PPM's through Training for future FM's.

That way, a manager (you) could decide, once you have a player at your club, what PPM's he is going to learn and/or which he is going to lose. Think of it like extra-training, for example Beckham staying after training to practice his free-kicks.

It would give you more control over the moulding of a player, and what you require from him within your team's style etc.

A maximum of 5 PPM's per player could only be had at any one time. And you'd have to pick which PPM to replace in the case of a player already having 5. Train it into him over a few months. And then start with the next PPM.

There are too many drawbacks/limits at the moment, with PPM's done through Tutoring. I think Tutoring should be left for Mental purposes only.

I think that would address what you outlined. Would you agree?

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">originally posted by The Gaffovski:-

Well, I've been proposing (along with many others) the implementation of PPM's through Training for future FM's.

That way, a manager (you) could decide, once you have a player at your club, what PPM's he is going to learn and/or which he is going to lose. Think of it like extra-training, for example Beckham staying after training to practice his free-kicks.

It would give you more control over the moulding of a player, and what you require from him within your team's style etc.

A maximum of 5 PPM's per player could only be had at any one time. And you'd have to pick which PPM to replace in the case of a player already having 5. Train it into him over a few months. And then start with the next PPM.

There are too many drawbacks/limits at the moment, with PPM's done through Tutoring. I think Tutoring should be left for Mental purposes only.

I think that would address what you outlined. Would you agree? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

If they could add in the ability for the manager to change a players hidden mental attributes from an early age then we could mould a team in our own image. Instill a sense of professionalism in a player because as it stands fining a player for not turning up to training creates a message response that might say 'will try to improve his behaviour' but it doesn't appear to affect the hidden attributes that resulted in him missing training in the first place (one small example).

I guess the issue with both of these is whether or not players could use them to gain an unfair advantage, whether or not the AI is intelligent enough to use both of these in a common sense way and effectively, and whether or not it would be a big hit on processing to have every single AI manager in the game analysing their squad and constantly shifting PPMs.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by isuckatfm:

I guess the issue with both of these is whether or not players could use them to gain an unfair advantage, whether or not the AI is intelligent enough to use both of these in a common sense way and effectively, and whether or not it would be a big hit on processing to have every single AI manager in the game analysing their squad and constantly shifting PPMs. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Hehe. A challenge to the programmers at SI has been issued!

There's a chance Henry and Pires could have had this PPM in their partnership-prime.

I remember many a time they'd both stand on the left wing, one of them with their foot on the ball. Stopped. Waiting. Not protecting the ball, merely daring the defenders to come get them. :')

The idea of a preferred player move should surely be what it says on the tin, a preferred player move.

Whilst I agree this is an interesting idea that would see a closer relationship between manager and young and upcoming staff I think that the ingame representation is ok. A current player does have preferred moves therefore how could you untrain them, it is a natural trait for a player in x position to do x move.

A manager does not have that much control over a player e.g 'you cant do this move anymore you should do this one'. A player at the very least should have his own individual style that fits in a team frame. It is a simulation ultimately but as its aiming to be very colse to reality I dont logically see how this could work.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by FireStar:

The idea of a preferred player move should surely be what it says on the tin, a preferred player move.

Whilst I agree this is an interesting idea that would see a closer relationship between manager and young and upcoming staff I think that the ingame representation is ok. A current player does have preferred moves therefore how could you untrain them, it is a natural trait for a player in x position to do x move.

A manager does not have that much control over a player e.g 'you cant do this move anymore you should do this one'. A player at the very least should have his own individual style that fits in a team frame. It is a simulation ultimately but as its aiming to be very colse to reality I dont logically see how this could work. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

But managers do. Takes a while to get a player to stop doing what you don't him to do, but they do. And likewise, they only have "constant" PPM's because their manager allows them to have them, i.e. they are beneficial to the team so the manager does not disencourage the player from using them.

Examples -

Adebayor. When he played on his own upfront, he used to "Move Into Channels" way too much, so much so that Wenger publically stated he'd like Adebayor to stay more central. Result? Adebayor started staying more central the next few games.

Players who "Dwells On Ball too much (countless examples). Told by their managers not to do that.

Wingers who "Hug Line". Told by their managers to "Cut Inside" more often.

The list is endless. Take a look at the list of PPM's, and give it some thought, comparing them to real-life football, and you'll come up with many more on your own.

In terms of relationships when you tell a young player to stop doing a favoured move and tell him to do x instead then surely there will be a negative outcome rather than a positive one? I agree that managers do issue players instructions but they cannot take away players natural instincts otherwise the game of football and indeed FM would be a very bland place indeed.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by FireStar:

In terms of relationships when you tell a young player to stop doing a favoured move and tell him to do x instead then surely there will be a negative outcome rather than a positive one? I agree that managers do issue players instructions but they cannot take away players natural instincts otherwise the game of football and indeed FM would be a very bland place indeed. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

That negative outcome could be similar to a player complaining about being re-trained in another position (Van Persie is like this in FM). I'm all for that - to have SOME players who don't like what their manager is asking them to do. SOME players who take ages to have a PPM re-trained, or refuse outright. That's realistic. What isn't realistic is to not be able to mould most players somewhat, if you're his manager?

As for taking away a player's natural instincts, well if the PPM is beneficial, why would anyone take it away? But some PPM's are a matter of tactical preference - cut inside or hug line? Stay Back all the time or Go Forward whenever possible? Etc. Depending on which team a player joins, they will be asked to cut certain things out and incorporate new ones.

You might have a player with 20 for Long Shots who actually doesn't have Shoots Long as a PPM. As his manager, would you not like to encourage/train him to take long shots more often?

And, as manager of one team, whatever PPM's you chose for your own players would have no bearing on the PPM's the AI would choose for the rest of the teams. So I disagree that FM would be a bland place because of that. You would just be able to stamp more of your character on your team.

I do agree with you on some aspects/levels i.e encouraging players to shoot long if they have that trait and moulding players careers, that is realistic. However, my point is that the blandness would result from the removing of natural instincts, for example you might have a forward who shoots with power all the time, but to try and educate him you might want him to place shots or curl the ball instead. As a result, you have taken away his natural pre programmed human instinct.

The trouble is that the lines between a simulation and reality is sometimes blurred as the game strives to be as realistic a simulation as possible; influenced by its biggest critics, us the fans. How the programmers ever implement all these ideas is beyond me.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by FireStar:

In terms of relationships when you tell a young player to stop doing a favoured move and tell him to do x instead then surely there will be a negative outcome rather than a positive one? I agree that managers do issue players instructions but they cannot take away players natural instincts otherwise the game of football and indeed FM would be a very bland place indeed. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

how do you know some of thses insticts aren't anything alse than manager instructions?

If you read the post the idea was that the manager has the ability to take away players PPM's. Therefore they are players instincts as they are favoured moves.

sorry. I thought I'd give you smth to think about, but it seems like you know all the answers in advance.

I am enlightened yes. However, when you are involved in the immediate discussion of a topic it is much easier to have accessible answers wouldnt you agree? You become passionate about the topic to the extent that you become almost agressive, so I do apologise.

FireStar,

I do have sympathy for your reservations, and agree that perhaps some PPM's should be unchangeable, like shooting style.

Mitja made a valid point which I don't think you grasped. How do you know some of these instincts aren't anything else than manager's instructions (at the player's current/previous club/s)?

Let me shoot one more thing at you, to further address the blandness thing. At the moment, with tutoring, is it not a fact that you actually do get blandness, because you're just "cloning" players? There's little variety.

HeathXXX (I think that's his full nickname) also mentioned on another thread that he had created a "super" player in his Man Utd squad, by tutoring him with a succession of top-class players (Ronaldo, Rooney, etc), and that it wasn't realistic how good this kid was now with all the PPM's he'd gained.

The other side of the coin is unsuccessful tutoring, where some managers find it near impossible to find an adequate tutor so that younger players gain some PPM's.

So, for me there is an issue here, something which could be bettered and that I hope SI will take notice of (FM gamer's frustrations with tutoring and PPM related issues). Obviously the solution would have to be one which did not have its own drawbacks.

I think that introduction of PPM's is one of the best thing happened to this game, over last years. but of course there are things that can improve further. like problems with tutoring, amount of PPMs might be limited...

I believe we should be able to train PPM's (some of them). there are few types of PPM's, IMO. player instincts (shoots with power, tries tricks, dives into tackles...). 2nd type of PPM's are more like tactical instructions (comes deep for the ball, gets into opp area, runs with ball...). these instructional PPM's we should be able to use in our tactics and train them through training and using them in matches. that's why I also think we should be able to take awey some of these PPM's.

Some great ideas Gaffovski - would love to see PPM's trained into a youth player.

Dont think I made my point clear enough about the blandness thing. The players have pre determined statistics and PPM's therefore they could be concieved as 'natural traits or instincts'. However, when you the manager comes along and then alters or determines these traits its like your changing the evolutionary process too much, therefore creating an almost bland result. You could mould all the players positions with the most relevant PPM's creaing the superplayers you aforementioned at Man Utd.

I do think it is a good idea in some ways but there seems too be the potential to overkill the feature and have results like you mentioned, which in your opinion was a bad thing! Maybe I'm seeing it too literally with the 'natural' aspect of my arguement, I do agree the PPM's add to the realism of the game but at the same time a manager does not have that much control over his players at that age, the youth coaches or senior players do, so the tutoring function is probably quite realistic anyway.

Ps. Sorry Mitja for being over zealous.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by shefki2008:

In the preferred moves section...there is a stops play. What is it? Am i right in thinking it is for defenders/defensive midfielders mainly who like to break up play, make blocks etc etc? Or am i way of the mark? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

stops play. someone like carragher or mascherano.

mascherano does nothign else other than stop attacks.

he has no want to get forward, he doesn't play raking through balls like alonso.

he breaks up the attack and plays a short ball to someone else who will get the ball forward .

basically.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by postal postie:

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by shefki2008:

In the preferred moves section...there is a stops play. What is it? Am i right in thinking it is for defenders/defensive midfielders mainly who like to break up play, make blocks etc etc? Or am i way of the mark? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

stops play. someone like carragher or mascherano.

mascherano does nothign else other than stop attacks.

he has no want to get forward, he doesn't play raking through balls like alonso.

he breaks up the attack and plays a short ball to someone else who will get the ball forward .

basically. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Stops Play - Player who pauses and looks around before doing anything with ball follow the link above

Thank you for your reply FireStar.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by FireStar:

You could mould all the players positions with the most relevant PPM's creaing the superplayers you aforementioned at Man Utd. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Not if there was a limit on PPM's per player. Which there isn't right now.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by FireStar:I do think it is a good idea in some ways but there seems too be the potential to overkill the feature and have results like you mentioned, which in your opinion was a bad thing! </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

You did not read what I said about limits. Therefore this point is invalid, except it still applies to the present..... and yes I think it's a bad thing.

To recap - what is being proposed (amongst other things) is a maximum of around 5 PPM's per player.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content"> Thank you for your reply FireStar. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Thats ok. I dont forsee the limit helping player development as the word limit suggests a restriction on moves. Therefore, the players development is hindered to preset choices that the manager will decide. I dont think that this is a 'natural' aspect of the game in real life and in FM. If the game is a simulation of real life events (or as close to as possible) then this idea is un natural. I do understand what you mean i just think that we have differing opinions, but thats what the forum is for right?!

Re the natural vs unnatural argument, could the player's personality be incorporated as the deciding factor in whether or not the manager can alter the natural instincts he has gained (i.e. PPMs) from his development prior to joining the club? In this case I am talking about PPMs in the sense of how one might gain them depending on how you play and develop in the non existant FM years (pre 15/16 years old)?

It could work in a similar manner to a bust up during tutoring where the tutored player gains no PPMs because he doesn't like the tutor or feels he is above being taught.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by FireStar:

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content"> Thank you for your reply FireStar. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Thats ok. I dont forsee the limit helping player development as the word limit suggests a restriction on moves. Therefore, the players development is hindered to preset choices that the manager will decide. I dont think that this is a 'natural' aspect of the game in real life and in FM. If the game is a simulation of real life events (or as close to as possible) then this idea is un natural. I do understand what you mean i just think that we have differing opinions, but thats what the forum is for right?! </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

but probably every youngster has his "moves and habits"- PPM's, already. it's just that there would be too much work for researchers to put them all in. it's impossible task.

the amount of PPM's in different leagues or clubs is totally unrealsitic. look at Roma or Milan players, De Rossi for example, and then compare it with Cesc. and that's another thing why I think PPM's should be limited.

do you realy think managers can't influence player's style and personality? even older ones. think of how much influence had Sir Alex on Cristiano, or Wenger on Cesc. especially Cristiano changed really a lot. I don't think he changed so much, becouse he went on tutoring.

also if a manager wants his player to play through balls all the time, year after year, it becomes player's habit, IMO.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content"> Re the natural vs unnatural argument, could the player's personality be incorporated as the deciding factor in whether or not the manager can alter the natural instincts he has gained (i.e. PPMs) from his development prior to joining the club? In this case I am talking about PPMs in the sense of how one might gain them depending on how you play and develop in the non existant FM years (pre 15/16 years old)? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

The managers influence would obviously be a factor in the outcome of tutoring. I think there is a discrepancy between natural habits of a player and PPM's however. C. Ronaldo obviously has the natural talent/instinct to try stepovers and this is reflected in the PPM tries tricks. I think there needs to be more clarity in this aspect of the game. He would have had the flair/creativity to do so even before he became good at it. Maybe a stat like proficiency would be the solution?

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content"> but probably every youngster has his "moves and habits"- PPM's, already. it's just that there would be too much work for researchers to put them all in. it's impossible task. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

However, I agree that every player has habits but the PPM's are just that, they are preferred moves (see above reference to C.Ronaldo). It is the individuals responsibility to decide when to do them not a managers. That was my point about the game becoming bland in real life or FM. The unpredictability of someone doing something out of the ordinary because they have the talent to do so makes football what it is. If there was a manager dictating when his players should pass, shoot etc then the game would be stifled and you wouldnt have players like Messi, Kaka etc being renowned for their respective genius.

The manager dictates tactics and formations amongst other things but the finer aspects of football like flowing one touch passing a la Liverpool of the early 80's and this undeniably talented Arsenal squad (Geez that was hard, Im a Liverpool fan!) is something that only the players can create, be it with natural talent and/or PPMs.

Im not deying the purpose of PPMs is effective or ineffective, meerly trying to distinguish natural stats from PPM's. PPMs are just that PLAYERS preferred moves, not the managers. Whilst I agree that the youth coaching could be improved Im not sure if a manager picking the players moves is the right way to go. Maybe if the players were generated with the managers favoured moves in mind this might be better?

For example, the manager would have favoured moves determined by the players he uses and in which position. Therefore the newgens would be produced with this in mind, simulating a link between the current mananger and his influence in youth coaching. The newgens have current staff coaches listed as their favoured personnel, why not the influential manager.

Right Im off to the pub after all that!

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by FireStar:

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content"> Thank you for your reply FireStar. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Thats ok. I dont forsee the limit helping player development as the word limit suggests a restriction on moves. Therefore, the players development is hindered to preset choices that the manager will decide. I dont think that this is a 'natural' aspect of the game in real life and in FM. If the game is a simulation of real life events (or as close to as possible) then this idea is un natural. I do understand what you mean i just think that we have differing opinions, but thats what the forum is for right?! </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Yep. We have very different opinions about what's natural and un-natural, and what constitutes hindrance and blandness. And neither of us is going to convince the other.

Agreed.