patch 9.2.0 made the game horrendous

Hi all,

I've been playing WSM '09 for a few weeks and ever since installing the latest patch (9.2.0) it's become impossible to play this game. My players look totally disoriented and make ridiculous mistakes (happened before the latest patch as well but not so often and not so obvious). For instance, sometimes it takes a player a few seconds to even realize that the ball was just right next to him and that an opposing player is one-on-one against my goalie as a result of that. This happens several times during the course of ANY game.

Complete opposite for me. Made the game a joy to play. I get idiotic decisions every 5 or 6 games as opposed to the AI being near-impossible to beat if you go ahead.

Must be our differing tactics.

The one question I'd have for the match engine developers is this. Why do players look like they really struggle to take possession of the ball? It's so strange. Even if they're under no pressure, they start to move really awkwardly and slowly when the ball comes to them. It's almost as if they're waiting for an opposition player to get closer to them before they control it.

It is due to male gene, they can't run and turn at the same time

On a serious note I think that is a problem, I see it all the time with full backs cutting off the cross angle for wingers then all of a sudden stops to turn giving the winger a good head start.

Something to consider is that the visual engine is more limited than the actual calculations going on in the background.

So while the match engine may be calculating all kinds of things going on ... ie hesitatation, determination, morale, skills etc the amount of available animation is limited to very few so what you see and interpret as players 'doing nothing' would be very clear if the players were fully animated with physics etc Just a limitation of the current 3d engine.

Im sure they will continue to add more animations and more fluid animations as the game develops but for now you just have to accept that sometimes what your seeing in 3d is just a rough aproximation of what the engine is really doing and calculating.

Myros

I prefer 9.2.0 from what I've seen so far.

Something to consider is that the visual engine is more limited than the actual calculations going on in the background.

So while the match engine may be calculating all kinds of things going on ... ie hesitatation, determination, morale, skills etc the amount of available animation is limited to very few so what you see and interpret as players 'doing nothing' would be very clear if the players were fully animated with physics etc Just a limitation of the current 3d engine.

Im sure they will continue to add more animations and more fluid animations as the game develops but for now you just have to accept that sometimes what your seeing in 3d is just a rough aproximation of what the engine is really doing and calculating.

Myros

yes. i'm still on 2d so i don't know how it looks in 3d but my interpretation is that players need more time to control the ball becouse it ia bouncing. at least that's how i look at this issue in 2d. agree that sometimes it looks like they're doing nothing and it takes them longer maybe to control the ball but imagine or look at real life match in FM perspective and i believe players would need time for some balls to control and tthey would look like they're doing nothing but in fact they're 'waiting the ball' to control.

IMO

Hi all,

I've been playing WSM '09 for a few weeks and ever since installing the latest patch (9.2.0) it's become impossible to play this game. My players look totally disoriented and make ridiculous mistakes (happened before the latest patch as well but not so often and not so obvious). For instance, sometimes it takes a player a few seconds to even realize that the ball was just right next to him and that an opposing player is one-on-one against my goalie as a result of that. This happens several times during the course of ANY game.

i had exactly the same problem in my continued game and after i started a new game these problems dispeared.

I have only played 9.0.2 patch after continuuing with my save , looked ok to me . I decided to delete that game as I was fed up of being an 'under pressure' manager because of the 'bug' .

Going to start the Luton challenge on the 902 patch after xmas

The one question I'd have for the match engine developers is this. Why do players look like they really struggle to take possession of the ball? It's so strange. Even if they're under no pressure, they start to move really awkwardly and slowly when the ball comes to them. It's almost as if they're waiting for an opposition player to get closer to them before they control it.

i haven't got the latest patch but i have the first patch and they dont look awkward or slow in possession with that one. can't comment on the second patch .

The movement and positioning of defenders seems to be quite horrifically broken.

It has been good for me. However, I think the players follow some of the instructions too literally. I often see a player in a good position to challenge another player and even have an obvious advantage, but not get the ball because he is not supposed to close down, or whatever.

I'd like to disagree.

After 9.2 patch I was on here complaining (rather loudly) that my strikers now couldn't score if I offered them Kelly Brook but now I hold my hands up and admit I was wrong.

Initially I was playing Main and Kedwell up front (I am AFC Wimbledon) but neither of them could play together with my tactics. I eventually discovered Kedwell was the problem once he got injured and I put Bilal in for a month. Since then the two of them have ripped the division to pieces scoring for fun. My other 2 back-up strikers have also starting chipping in too so I actually sold Kedwell for £6k as I didn't need him. I think my problem was a classic case of sticking with a proven name rather than in-form players.

Since then I have the best defensive record in the league (BSS), have scored the 2nd most amount in the league, and I'm top by 1 point. I am also undefeated in 17 games.

Shame they won't be getting a sniff of Kelly though..... !

Sy13, from your recent posts I get the impression patch 9.2 is about as good as you are currently doing in the game at the time you post.

Isn't that the same with everyone?

no, for me there's is a problem during 3d match engine. i have 4 stars strikers and i miss too many clear chance to goal in one on one.

there is possibility to play 9.2 whit match engine 9.1?

thank's

I'm unsure with regards to 9.2 at the moment. There are lots of nice fixes (especially match loading/setup time!) and a few errors here and there. With regards to the matches though - ever since playing FM09 upon release, I have had problems scoring from corners (not a biggie, maybe I can work around this) and scoring from Direct Free Kicks! I cannot score free kicks, even with the likes of (last season) Rivaldo taking them. I would not be telling a lie if I were to say my freekick takers fire 95% of their shots wide. It does look completely wrong (the AI are doing it as well).

Is anyone scoring from freekicks? There are enough good players in my Newcastle team to at least get the shots on target (or so I thought) once in a while.

One on Ones with the Keeper - strikers just shoot at the keeper, its pushed away and sometimes (if you have enough people forward) someone might get another chance to score whilst the goal is exposed. I'm not saying we should be scoring more, but I do find myself increasingly frustrated at watching strikers (both my players and the AI) firing straight at the keeper. Loads of chances, few goals. I've tried a few things (different tempo etc) but nothing appears to change.

I was tempted to start over with a new save but I dont think that'd make any difference. Maybe 9.2 causing managers to be classed as 'under pressure' caused an upset in my team?

Will try and ride this rough period out and see if things improve

Sy13, from your recent posts I get the impression patch 9.2 is about as good as you are currently doing in the game at the time you post.

Guilty as charged sir

Now I've been using it for a while I can clearly see the improvements between 9.1 and 9.2. Yes, some bugs still remain (2D classic view still slows because all the players names stay on sometimes, corner takers keep putting it behind the goal which is stupid etc) but it IS better now.

I have to admit that any changes I make seem to play out on the field now more than ever. I do have one question though.... are there any plans to look at comebacks from poor teams. For example, I STILL fear being 2 or 3 nil up at half time. I am using the team talks properly but no matter what I do with tactics etc, the poor opposition hit back like Real Madrid on steroids. For example, as AFC Wimbledon I was 3-nil up away to Weston with 10mins to play - the game finished 3-3. It just doesn't happen. Maybe once or twice a season, not every time you take a decent lead.

Any thoughts?

To be honest, I think a lot of people think the game is good when they're doing well, and "a disgrace" when they're not.

To be honest, I think a lot of people think they game is good when they're doing well, and "a disgrace" when they're not.

It would be interesting to see how the dynamic of this forum would change if the game was a lot easier. You'd probably get all the new members raving about how good the game is while the regulars winge about how poor it has become.

It would be interesting to see how the dynamic of this forum would change if the game was a lot easier. You'd probably get all the new members raving about how good the game is while the regulars winge about how poor it has become.

You'd certainly find me whinging and demanding my money back and calling Miles mean names.

To be honest, I think a lot of people think the game is good when they're doing well, and "a disgrace" when they're not.

I am winning and I find the game at least awful based on objective mistakes and unbalances that the game has, like the defending problems.

So, your argument is clearly not valid.

I am winning and I find the game at least awful based on objective mistakes and unbalances that the game has, like the defending problems.

So, your argument is clearly not valid.

Yes, you're right. One example invalidates my argument.

thing is ALOT of people dont want it a lot easier just a bit more logical for instance regarding Tactics if people like me who have maybe a hour or two to play a night after work doesnt have the time to spend ages doing tactics if the sliders made alot more sense and it didnt take me a 50 page document to get any sort of information on them, just things like that its all well and good to the people like wwfan and i have a great deal of respect to him for the documents and all his tactical work, but the game is begining to feel like a chore than a game as i have to spend 2-3 hours figuring a tactic out only to see it get ripped apart by a AI with a 1:1 ratio of CCC's to Goals , im slowly getting there but for me its been WAY to much effort.

You don't need to spend ages on tactics. I spend no time at all on them, really, and I'm doing pretty well.

The problem is more that it's so unclear what you need to do. I always compare it to operating in the dark, fumbling about hoping to stumble upon the right combination of sliders without any real idea how to do it. I'm enjoying quite a lot of success, but I've no idea how I got my tactics right. I just... did. And that is a problem.

thats the thing if you stumble on them its easy but if you dont like me it takes ages

Yes, you're right. One example invalidates my argument.

Yeah, there is only me, no one else. Well done.

I have to agree with the OP

Yeah, there is only me, no one else. Well done.

One example does not invalidate an argument.

One example does not invalidate an argument.

Yeah, as you can see in these forums there is only me complaining. Well done on your observational skills.

Yeah, as you can see in these forums there is only me complaining. Well done on your observational skills.

Now you're changing the argument. My point was that a lot of people complain when they're struggling and either praise the game or just don't say much when they're doing well. Your one example to the contrary (yourself) doesn't invalidate the argument. Even several example wouldn't prove anything.

If anything, it is a difficult thing to quantify one way or the other.

Now you're changing the argument. My point was that a lot of people complain when they're struggling and either praise the game or just don't say much when they're doing well. Your one example to the contrary (yourself) doesn't invalidate the argument. Even several example wouldn't prove anything.

If anything, it is a difficult thing to quantify one way or the other.

But your own 'point' is actually as invalid as his counter-argument isn't it. You can't back it up with examples that are substantial enough to prove you right.

Not really important all this, but saying that people who complain must be doing it cause they can't win is insulting to many who can but are still annoyed by the flaws in this game. No need for this assumption to be thrown around in all these threads in my opinion.

But your own 'point' is actually as invalid as his counter-argument isn't it. You can't back it up with examples that are substantial enough to prove you right.

Not really important all this' date=' but saying that people who complain must be doing it cause they can't win is insulting to many who can but are still annoyed by the flaws in this game. No need for this assumption to be thrown around in all these threads in my opinion.[/quote']

That's right. Most people complain because the game is more or less a mess. Very few areas work as they should and most of the other ones seem hopelessly broken. The real problem is not the bugs, it's that the game is like this every year. Nothing that the community has asked has been looked at in the last iterations, like transfer AI, manager AI, defenders, training, the set pieces, the 1 on 1 issue, etc.

Instead we get press conferences that do now work as intended and other features that add nothing substantial to the game. There have been posters in these forums that with a single post prove how much better design wise the game would be - plus, they are doing it for free. Maybe it's time for SI to employ some of the people, like Valve did, because in all honesty they are making them look like amateurs. When the competition catches up -like Fifa did with the PES series- then sales will fly by the window. We still play this game because there is no competition and because we still all love it, despite it's yearly broken nature.

People should better show some respect to the ones coming here and complain about real issues and not slam them down because that is the only way this game will someday resemble realistic action.

That's right. Most people complain because the game is more or less a mess. Very few areas work as they should and most of the other ones seem hopelessly broken. The real problem is not the bugs, it's that the game is like this every year. Nothing that the community has asked has been looked at in the last iterations, like transfer AI, manager AI, defenders, training, the set pieces, the 1 on 1 issue, etc.

Instead we get press conferences that do now work as intended and other features that add nothing substantial to the game. There have been posters in these forums that with a single post prove how much better design wise the game would be - plus, they are doing it for free. Maybe it's time for SI to employ some of the people, like Valve did, because in all honesty they are making them look like amateurs. When the competition catches up -like Fifa did with the PES series- then sales will fly by the window. We still play this game because there is no competition and because we still all love it, despite it's yearly broken nature.

People should better show some respect to the ones coming here and complain about real issues and not slam them down because that is the only way this game will someday resemble realistic action.

i can't remember the last feature that was introduced and added something good to the game and not being broken or just another moral booster insanity. and that says all.

it looks like SI have choosen their marketing path and target group. i would say they don't care about the game anymore.

9.1 was much better that 9.2 because:

1-a lot of offside goals are happening in 9.2,sometimes 3 in one game.

2(MOST IMPORTANT)-before people said that strikers were on drugs,but now in my game on 9.2 they are most of the time drunk and on drugs. i mean at least 90% of one-on-ones the strikers shoot straight at the goalie and this is something that MUST be fixed in 9.3.(world-class strikers that is)

3-player movement is much worse than it was before.

4-defenders dont close down or do tight marking when you have your opponent instructions strikers on always close down and tight marking.

thing is ALOT of people dont want it a lot easier just a bit more logical for instance regarding Tactics if people like me who have maybe a hour or two to play a night after work doesnt have the time to spend ages doing tactics if the sliders made alot more sense and it didnt take me a 50 page document to get any sort of information on them, just things like that its all well and good to the people like wwfan and i have a great deal of respect to him for the documents and all his tactical work, but the game is begining to feel like a chore than a game as i have to spend 2-3 hours figuring a tactic out only to see it get ripped apart by a AI with a 1:1 ratio of CCC's to Goals , im slowly getting there but for me its been WAY to much effort.

Bumping your words

9.1 was much better that 9.2 because:

1-a lot of offside goals are happening in 9.2,sometimes 3 in one game.

2(MOST IMPORTANT)-before people said that strikers were on drugs,but now in my game on 9.2 they are most of the time drunk and on drugs. i mean at least 90% of one-on-ones the strikers shoot straight at the goalie and this is something that MUST be fixed in 9.3.(world-class strikers that is)

3-player movement is much worse than it was before.

4-defenders dont close down or do tight marking when you have your opponent instructions strikers on always close down and tight marking.

i disagree with all of this. not having any issues lucky for me

i disagree with all of this. not having any issues lucky for me

I like the game , but i have to admit that he is right about one-on-ones . There is just way to many of them(specially from player's teams), but luckily they end up like he said , straight into the GK.

Point should be why there is so many , rather why they end up being shot straight to Gk though.

I often feel I have a different game to some people. I am using the same tactics as always 4-1-2-1-2 and am doing well with Manchester United. I am not running away with the league and I like that. I have good games and bad games, the players play well and not so well - as in real life. Also I lose sometimes to teams I should lose to - but isn't that the same in real life too!

I really enjoy playing the game, I have the latest patch and it's still as enjoyable.

I am also playing as Leeds United with the same tactics and presently sit on top of the championship by 11 points ( having a storming season)

The game does tell us that if you change tactics it could take the players a little while to get used to it. When I started with 4-1-2-1-2 the results were not the best but I persevered and hey presto the team began to adapt the tactics, get used to it and then destroyed the opposition.

I sometimes win only by 1-0 but that's also like in real life.

This game rocks !

With 9.2.0-patch, my Premier League-players suddenly turn around and make a horrible pass back to the players of the other team every now and then, without being even remotley challenged. I don´t recall seeing that with the 9.1.0-patch.

It would be interesting to see how the dynamic of this forum would change if the game was a lot easier. You'd probably get all the new members raving about how good the game is while the regulars winge about how poor it has become.

Pfft, it'll always seem easy for some of us. As long as SI set up bots claiming the game was really hard, us big club fans at least would stay happy.

I want it easy, as long as it's hard for everyone else, damnit!

I often feel I have a different game to some people. I am using the same tactics as always 4-1-2-1-2 and am doing well with Manchester United. I am not running away with the league and I like that. I have good games and bad games, the players play well and not so well - as in real life. Also I lose sometimes to teams I should lose to - but isn't that the same in real life too!

I really enjoy playing the game, I have the latest patch and it's still as enjoyable.

I am also playing as Leeds United with the same tactics and presently sit on top of the championship by 11 points ( having a storming season)

The game does tell us that if you change tactics it could take the players a little while to get used to it. When I started with 4-1-2-1-2 the results were not the best but I persevered and hey presto the team began to adapt the tactics, get used to it and then destroyed the opposition.

I sometimes win only by 1-0 but that's also like in real life.

This game rocks !

Replies like this do nothing to promote serious discussion.

What you actually tell all of us is that you don't mind all the problems and that you are enjoying the game. Fair enough, that is your view. All these things, like bad defending, messed up training, 1 on 1s and many more happen to your game too though. You used the term "real life" but you have failed to pinpoint the numerous things that happen in FM which do not resemble "real life". You simply choose to ignore them and shout "this game rocks".

Therefore your post is nothing more but a fanboyish and not well researched view which, in all honesty, belongs in the latest impressions topic or in an SI press release.

My biggest problem with the game is that when I watch it in full game in 3D it simply does not look like a football match, not even close, not by a mile.

Now I know that players make stupid misstakes in real life and that in most tight matches between top notch teams etc, the goals are often scored after a defensive error or a brilliant, out of the blue, effort,but in my game the goals are not scored after ONE misstake but after a series of defensive errors, often as many as 3-5 players making them within 5 seconds. In my save, played almost 3 seasons, I have seen more fluke or give away goals than I have ever seen in my entire life and I have watched aprox 1 game a week for the last 25 years( more in resent years obvioulsy) !!

Well I've had my moan elsewhere, but at least, with all the problems it had, in 9.1 I could win titles. 9.2 just feels like I am running up hill all the time .. no conventions are obeyed: weak teams are using playmakers and wingers that can spring the length of the pitch in seconds. They score 25 yard goals or skin my entire midfield then my entire defence.

Its silly: players in 9.2 just dont seem to be able to defend.

I'm experiencing quite the opposite.

Keeping lots of clean sheets but struggling to score at the other end now.

Replies like this do nothing to promote serious discussion.

What you actually tell all of us is that you don't mind all the problems and that you are enjoying the game. Fair enough, that is your view. All these things, like bad defending, messed up training, 1 on 1s and many more happen to your game too though. You used the term "real life" but you have failed to pinpoint the numerous things that happen in FM which do not resemble "real life". You simply choose to ignore them and shout "this game rocks".

Therefore your post is nothing more but a fanboyish and not well researched view which, in all honesty, belongs in the latest impressions topic or in an SI press release.

I did expect a reply like this from someone. It does promote serious discussion, just not the discussion you would like - a 'let's complain discussion'. My points are fully valid in the sense that I have no issues after the 9.2.0 patch installation and therefore commented on that fact. I do believe that it's ok for those of us who don't have any issues with the game to comment on it, don't you? I actually had problems with the game as my computer spec is below that recommended - sadly that isn't Si's problem but mine - but the full game works, without 3d but it works, and I love it!

I also don't need to comment on the games shortcomings, as that is well documented on here and there are many threads open on that issue. I simply responded to the question of the original poster of this thread.

My comments are based upon my experience, which I can see is different to yours, doesn't make it wrong - just different. Try attacking the issue not the person as it makes for a better forum. Attacking the person defeats the object of getting a serious debate going, attacking the issue spawns debate and a variety of views - not all of them we agree with but still valid all the same.

I have no problem with being branded a 'fanboy' although the accusation of 'not being well researched' is well wide of the mark. The issue I raised was a personal view and my experience of the game, in that sense I am well researched .

For me ( and that is what this whole forum is about, our personal experiences etc ) this game does 'rock' the flaws don't detract me from the game and I play it almost 24/7. It is always running on my computer

I did expect a reply like this from someone. It does promote serious discussion, just not the discussion you would like - a 'let's complain discussion'. My points are fully valid in the sense that I have no issues after the 9.2.0 patch installation and therefore commented on that fact. I do believe that it's ok for those of us who don't have any issues with the game to comment on it, don't you? I actually had problems with the game as my computer spec is below that recommended - sadly that isn't Si's problem but mine - but the full game works, without 3d but it works, and I love it!

I also don't need to comment on the games shortcomings, as that is well documented on here and there are many threads open on that issue. I simply responded to the question of the original poster of this thread.

My comments are based upon my experience, which I can see is different to yours, doesn't make it wrong - just different. Try attacking the issue not the person as it makes for a better forum. Attacking the person defeats the object of getting a serious debate going, attacking the issue spawns debate and a variety of views - not all of them we agree with but still valid all the same.

I have no problem with being branded a 'fanboy' although the accusation of 'not being well researched' is well wide of the mark. The issue I raised was a personal view and my experience of the game, in that sense I am well researched .

For me ( and that is what this whole forum is about, our personal experiences etc ) this game does 'rock' the flaws don't detract me from the game and I play it almost 24/7. It is always running on my computer

You express an opinion, I express a fact: that the game is still broken in so many areas. I am not discussing if that matters or not, I am discussing that it is a fact. Countering fact with an opinion does nothing to promote a serious discussion.

It is a fact that defenders do not behave as they should. It is an opinion (your opinion) that this does not detract from the gameplay. You present no facts to counter the facts, just a "I don't care - this game rocks" mentality which makes you look really out of place.

That is why I said you should be posting this in the latest impressions topic. Your post is an impression, an opinion, not a fact.

You express an opinion, I express a fact: that the game is still broken in so many areas. I am not discussing if that matters or not, I am discussing that it is a fact. Countering fact with an opinion does nothing to promote a serious discussion.

It is a fact that defenders do not behave as they should. It is an opinion (your opinion) that this does not detract from the gameplay. You present no facts to counter the facts, just a "I don't care - this game rocks" mentality which makes you look really out of place.

That is why I said you should be posting this in the latest impressions topic. Your post is an impression, an opinion, not a fact.

Ok let me put it this way.

1 Fact - i don't have a problem with the defenders not defending. In both my current cames the number of goals against me is low, meaning that the defenders and the goalkeeper are doing their job.

2. Fact - in relation to a game any fact is also an opinion because it can be different to that of others - as in the case I am presenting.

3. Fact - being happy with a game does not discount that persons impression, feelings and so on. It merely shows that on that persons game the problems you are talking about are not apparent - as in my game. I presented that in my two posts.

4 Fact - I am expressing a fact from the games I am playing at the moment. And the other games i have played too.

5 Fact - just because I don't want to come on this forum and abuse the good people at SI does not mean that I don't speak factually.

6 Fact - I have never said the game is perfect, nor have I negated your opinion, view, your game facts at all. I have presented the facts from my game and my experience after 9.2.0 - that is all.

7 Fact - I pointed out that I had a problem with the game at the beginning with regards to the graphics card issue.

9 Fact - I enjoy the game but am aware that for some the game doesn't live up to expectation - I am not one of those people. I am not, however, negating your valid experience in your game.

10 Fact - discussion is only ever our opinions backed up with facts. I feel I have done that now and countered your point of me not presenting facts.

I will repeat again, I am in NO WAY negating valid issues that have been raised on this forum. There are issues which we all know about and which SI always try to deal with. Now I know that this can come across as pro-SI but it's also very logical. Experience and Facts show us all that if there is a huge problem then SI work it out, release a patch or whatever to ensure we get the best playing experience possible. Factual evidence and past experience tells me that the company who have designed the game will also support the people who play it.

If there is a problem then SI will review it and try and fix it, is that being pro-SI or a proved historical fact.

Ok let me put it this way.

1 Fact - i don't have a problem with the defenders not defending. In both my current cames the number of goals against me is low, meaning that the defenders and the goalkeeper are doing their job.

2. Fact - in relation to a game any fact is also an opinion because it can be different to that of others - as in the case I am presenting.

3. Fact - being happy with a game does not discount that persons impression, feelings and so on. It merely shows that on that persons game the problems you are talking about are not apparent - as in my game. I presented that in my two posts.

4 Fact - I am expressing a fact from the games I am playing at the moment. And the other games i have played too.

5 Fact - just because I don't want to come on this forum and abuse the good people at SI does not mean that I don't speak factually.

6 Fact - I have never said the game is perfect, nor have I negated your opinion, view, your game facts at all. I have presented the facts from my game and my experience after 9.2.0 - that is all.

7 Fact - I pointed out that I had a problem with the game at the beginning with regards to the graphics card issue.

9 Fact - I enjoy the game but am aware that for some the game doesn't live up to expectation - I am not one of those people. I am not, however, negating your valid experience in your game.

10 Fact - discussion is only ever our opinions backed up with facts. I feel I have done that now and countered your point of me not presenting facts.

I will repeat again, I am in NO WAY negating valid issues that have been raised on this forum. There are issues which we all know about and which SI always try to deal with. Now I know that this can come across as pro-SI but it's also very logical. Experience and Facts show us all that if there is a huge problem then SI work it out, release a patch or whatever to ensure we get the best playing experience possible. Factual evidence and past experience tells me that the company who have designed the game will also support the people who play it.

If there is a problem then SI will review it and try and fix it, is that being pro-SI or a proved historical fact.

Fair enough.

Fair enough.

thanks and great