Has 3D Exposed FM’s Match Engine Inadequacies?

I never expected to be a fan of the FM09 3D, but I was pleasantly surprised and it’s better than I expected. Despite this, if 2D was the same as FM08’s 2D I don’t think I’d use the 3D representation at all.

For the most part we were required to use our imagination about certain goings on when using 2D and the benefit of 3D is that we get a clearer view of it and goal, especially, are far better looking. However, it’s a double edged sword IMO and the clearer representation and less emphasis on imagination has exposed a number of flaws in the current match engine.

Below are three screen shots of the same passage of play in three separate views.

Pic 1

Pic 2

Pic 3

Pics 1 and 2 are the ones I want to focus on.

In Pic 1 you could be forgiven for thinking that the three players in the vicinity of the ball are standing close together and challenging for the ball, but Pic 2 tells a different story. It shows us that one player is in control of the ball, one player is approximately two yards away and moving towards the ball, whilst the third player is approximately 5 yards away from the action.

Pic 1 also seems to indicate that players Blue 11 and White 18 are within touching distance of each other, neither having any particular advantage. The same could be said for Blue 7 and White 24. Again Pic 2 tells us a different story and the gap between the players is considerable and despite the possibility of offside, certain players do have an advantage in their position.

So, while we were all sat here ranting and raving about the plus points of the FM match engine over the years, were we really ever fully aware of how good it was? IMO our imagination was getting the better of us, and the new 3D representation is showing us some of the errors that have probably always been there, but are only noticeable now.

I think this is why I’m finding FM09 so frustrating. In the past I would have seen what I considered two dots to be jostling for position and in imagination battling for the ball, but it might never have been the case. Now I see my players running alongside the opposition maintaining a two yard gap and not closing down as much as I had instructed. Maybe that’s not a bad thing and it’s good that we can now see how the game is actually going and all the actions as they should be shown, but atm I feel like I’d rather not know and still be stuck in my imaginary 2D world.

My question is simple, has 3D exposed the inadequacies of the FM match engine and would we have been as oblivious as ever if SI had stuck with 2D? Perhaps this is the reason there are so many complaints compared to years gone by, we just didn’t know there were things to complain about.

In answer to your question: Yes it has.The key word in the argument is "imagination". We have used our imagination for the last four years when analysing football matches in Football Manager. We were always getting a vague image of what was going on in 2D and we were left to decide what was happening and, to be honest, I prefer it that way.

This is one of the many reasons I have been swayed back to 2D. There are times when I am trying to notice my tactical wrong-doings in 3D, when I find there can be no tactical explanation for why my player is just letting other players run around him, there can be no tactical explanation for why my keeper refuses to dive and catch the ball.

This is where imagination comes in. In the 2D view you are no wiser than to believe your player has made an attempt to win the ball and just failed with a tackle. You are no wiser than to believe your keeper has made an attempt to save the ball.

Overall, 3D, in my opinion, just shows off the failures in the match engine which were once covered up by the vague 2D view. I still use 2D so I can use my imagination a bit and make it seem more like a real football match.

Nice post. I agree with you already about the exposing of inadequacies, and I hope that what this ultimately means for us, is that the ME will be much bettered in the future, whereas it probably would never have been bettered as much had this situation never arisen, since it could keep getting away with some things.

i agree with you... for example, a couple of times i've seen through balls come much closer to my keeper than to the striker, but my keeper misevaluates the situation, lets the striker come and get the ball, and i concede... this, true, might be noticed in a 2D view as well, but there, as u pointed out, distances were not quite as clear, and maybe i'd think this could pass as a wrong call by my gk... with 3D, however, it's quite clear that a below-conference gk would have no troubles rushing out and getting the ball...

so the answer is yes, 3D has made some ME errors more obvious...

Key to the success of future versions of the 3D will depend (this is solely my opinion, not a company line) on bringing the amount of animations up to the standard of existing football games, thereby filling the gap between what is displayed and our 'imaginations'.

Key to the success of future versions of the 3D will depend (this is solely my opinion, not a company line) on bringing the amount of animations up to the standard of existing football games, thereby filling the gap between what is displayed and our 'imaginations'.

But surely what is displayed is dictated by the match engine, so the problem isn't what's being displayed, but how it's being calculated.

I have no idea what i'm talking about or the finer details of the match engine etc, so forgive me for waffling. If the match engine is coded to have a player close down properly, will 3D display that properly or will it be uable to because it isn't top notch? Maybe i'm taking your post the wrong way, but it sounds like the match engine is fine, but 3D can't handle the representation.

But surely what is displayed is dictated by the match engine, so the problem isn't what's being displayed, but how it's being calculated.

A good example of this was the funny screenshots thread: a user had two players fighting, but since there is no current fight animation, all the players do is stand near each other. This is a problem with the display (lack of animation) rather than the match engine since it IS occurring.

I have no idea what i'm talking about or the finer details of the match engine etc, so forgive me for waffling. If the match engine is coded to have a player close down properly, will 3D display that properly or will it be uable to because it isn't top notch? Maybe i'm taking your post the wrong way, but it sounds like the match engine is fine, but 3D can't handle the representation.

With regards to your example of closing down: there are animations for closing down that reflect what is going on in the match engine, however, I personally think that there is room for even more variations of these animations. This will then add more of a unique feel to the on-screen action, as the user is seeing stuff they would see in a real life football match - countless movements of players.

I wouldn't say the match engine is perfect, there's plenty of room for it to be worked on IMO. There are areas of the game (like the fighting mentioned above) where the 3D hasn't caught up with the match engine as there simply wasn't time to integrate everything the match engine can do (which is a hell of a lot), but it's not that 3D can't display it, it's that there are gaps between some events in the M.E. and the 3D display of it.

Hope I haven't waffled too much and made that a little clearer.

Thanks for the reply skorp, I (think I) understand now. One question though, is the 3D represtation an identical representation to 2D?

I still think that the intrduction of 3D has opened up a can of match engine worms and the problems are more visible now. My main point about the closing down representation is that, it may look like closing down is taking place in 2D, but in 3D the players are actually running alongisde each other 4 yards apart.

Thanks for the reply skorp, I (think I) understand now. One question though, is the 3D represtation an identical representation to 2D?

I still think that the intrduction of 3D has opened up a can of match engine worms and the problems are more visible now. My main point about the closing down representation is that, it may look like closing down is taking place in 2D, but in 3D the players are actually running alongisde each other 4 yards apart.

You can see by match glitches that the 2D playes are about 10 times as big, in surface area, than the 3D players. That is why things often look different in 2D than they do in 3D

The CM00/01 ME was flawless IMO

I agree that the more we see, the more flaws we'll see, that's to be expected.

You can see by match glitches that the 2D playes are about 10 times as big, in surface area, than the 3D players. That is why things often look different in 2D than they do in 3D

Hmmm thanks for pointing that out peter

Hmmm thanks for pointing that out peter

I get the feeling I just told you something that you discovered 4-5 years ago

I had only thought about this myself last night, but like Scorp said its down to the 3D animations not existing for every event, and i'm not surprised considering the amount of eventualities is endless. The same can be said for FIFA and Pro Evo, when you play those games over and over you notice the same set of animations, so even they can be criticised.

I think in the end, until it improves i will go back to the 2D and use my imagination. With the gaps in 3D representation and the nature of the game, frustration can boil up when you lose a goal and see players looking like planks and not doing anything. I know i've turned the game off because of it.

Bump. Sorry, but I thought this would be a decent talking point.

Bump. Sorry, but I thought this would be a decent talking point.

It is. Picture 2, most of all, shows what a powerful addition to the game the 3D match engine is.

The problem now is that we have quite a low base, but any improvements to the 3D engine will be subtle and iterative. Which won't please people when they have their recently installed copy of FM10, then FM11, then FM12... The development of the 3D engine is analagous to the improvements from CM4 to what I believed to be the then pinnacle of the series - FM07

Which is why I smile ruefully when people comment that the match engine had 'only gone backwards'. Compared to what? Before CM4 all you had was a moving posession bar and some commentary! On CM0304 all you needed was a winger with flair and dribbling and you could watch him score tap-ins after dribbling around 5 defenders!

It is. Picture 2, most of all, shows what a powerful addition to the game the 3D match engine is.

The problem now is that we have quite a low base, but any improvements to the 3D engine will be subtle and iterative. Which won't please people when they have their recently installed copy of FM10, then FM11, then FM12... The development of the 3D engine is analagous to the improvements from CM4 to what I believed to be the then pinnacle of the series - FM07

Which is why I smile ruefully when people comment that the match engine had 'only gone backwards'. Compared to what? Before CM4 all you had was a moving posession bar and some commentary! On CM0304 all you needed was a winger with flair and dribbling and you could watch him score tap-ins after dribbling around 5 defenders!

I totally agree, despite the fact that yes the introduction of the 3D view as Nomis07 pointed out has shown up the limitations of the ME it is still in it's infancy and as such will take 3 or 4 editions before we are happy with it. It is always about development which is crucial to the games survival and SI should be praised for the way in which they keep pushing the boundaries. I personally prefer to watch in 3D because whilst I can see the glitches, I can also see where my tactical instructions are going right or wrong!

Yes the 3d forces us to take the m/e to a new level. We have raised the bar for ourselves significantly , which I think we always should be trying to do!

I agree entirely. People may think that it seems like a step backwards comparing the 3d match engine to last years. But I think this was almost inevitable as with anything, the more detail you add the more the cracks will show.

When HDTV programming started become mainstream, a famous News Presenter (I can't remember which) made a funny point.

She realised that she suddenly needed to spend more time in make-up to make herself look as good as she used to on normal TV.

People may be a little disappointed with the 3d view currently (no me though, I love it). But in a few years once SI have more time, and more powerful systems (user computers I mean). We are going to be in for a real treat.

This similar argument could be made for Match Commentary. It seems much more impressive playing Fifa or PES and hearing someone talking about the match, rather than having to read it. But with current technology, audio commentary is far to limited to purvey the full amount of detail given across in written text. I can say with an almost certainty that at one stage in the future, text-to-voice software will be advanced enough to have audio commentary featuring in FM.