Losing customers for lack of care

" Default Re: ByeBye SI - Enjoy your friendship with STEAM

If you don't like Steam, use Uniloc.

If you can't get it activated, contact Customer Services who will do it for you."

(posted by Matt-Sega, marketing bloke at the end of "ByeBye SI - Enjoy your friendship with STEAM" post)

I've been a regular customer of SI for quite a while and always felt SI had a straight relationship with the customers and although am not a heavy game user, it made me feel alright regardings their behaviour towards their customer base.

However, the answer given in the post above made me feel uneasy. The guy who posted, Hamburg78, probably is not someone who is trying to be stupid, but one who paid the money SI and Sega requested for a game but had a very different product comparing to the last years.

The point here is not only the using of anti-cracking systems to avoid piracy or the fact that Mac users who have to buy it digitally (like myself) were simply left to rot. The fact is that this year's version has much, much more troubles for users and complains from them than in the past games. This is not hard to realise when you check the forums.

Yes, maybe there are loads of people who are playing ok and very happy judging all the complainers as people disgruntled with life and simply annoying because of their own misfortunes. But that's not the case. These complains will reach you, happy customer, sooner or later.

I don't mind SI and Sega use their efforts to avoid piracy, as that's their right (I've never used pirat copies, buying mine legally although here in Brazil it is much more expensive because it is a fair deal with SI's merits). However, this whole Steam-genius-anti-pirat system changed FM09 into a huge disappointment and let me tell you - for nothing. There are several sources in the net where you can get pirat copies which work. It is not easy to win this war, I am sorry.

EA bought a real problem for them with the DRM issue, treating badly a large fanbase and they have a problem to deal with simply for nothing, or in the best case, for very little. SI is doing the same with the Steam solution, with leaving Mac users blind about if they will be able to buy digital copies and giving answers like "If you don't like Steam, use Uniloc" for users who have been playing- AND BUYING - the game for years.

So, I don't intend to boycott SI and if I have the chance, I will buy the game. However, I believe that FM 2010 will be something I will expect much, much less eagerly than previous games. That's a shame.

What's wrong with his reply? :s

I don't see anything wrong with the reply. Just another person who thought the game would be perfect in his eyes, when his expectations were similar to that of someone other than Celtic or Rangers winning the SPL.

maybe he didn't want such a specific answer as "customer services will do it"

maybe he didn't want such a specific answer as "customer services will do it"

Oh, very witty.

I'm dubious about the OP's level of knowledge about "working pirate copies". You could only know that if you'd tried them - otherwise, you suppose they work, surely? Also - you have no basis to evaluate whether we've been succesful in our objectives or not, without knowing our objectives for the copy protection... so again, supposition?

Personally - I like the Steam service. I have for years ever since HL2. I know that some people hate it and therefore there is an alternative option... Miles insisted on that if we were going to use something like this. That is an indisputable fact - and there is nothing not to like about a one-time activation - a gaming norm from back in the C64 and Spectrum days, and that's only as far as I remember. That, of couse, is assuming that it works properly and I know that we dropped the ball there.

My point, although lacking eloquence (apologies, lots of threads and not much time) was this - that we don't force anyone to use Steam. A one-time activation is now a minimal hassle - I have already covered off and apologised profusely for the early issues - for playing a great game. If people want to vote with their wallets, that is a decision that we accepted when we went ahead in the first place. It's not ideal but we're not going to know how people respond to such systems without trying them, and we're not going to get working solutions without getting involved, either.

In the case of the thread quote - all I can say is that I do get a little frustrated when people cut off their noses to spite their faces - especially if they then choose to broadcast the fact in an unconstructive manner that doesn't actually have a basis in fact - i.e. that Steam is forced on anyone. It clearly isn't.

All of that said - we haven't determined what we'll do next year, at this point. If people genuinely object, we'll look for alternatives. We've stated that already. We're also going to review whether or not we feel the system has worked - clearly initially it didn't.

Lastly - apologies for the Mac downloads thing, I hadn't heard much about that. I'll ask SI if there's a plan - they normally look after it themselves and I don't know where it is. I'll post when I get an answer.

Cheers

Matt

I for one will use steam again and i hope the option to buy fm2010 on steam will be there. I know people had genuine problems with activation, but i was fortunate like i imagine alot of people were and had no problems at all with any part of my steam service.

Plus having a patch download in 3 mins through steam was also a bonus.

I'm dubious about the OP's level of knowledge about "working pirate copies". You could only know that if you'd tried them - otherwise, you suppose they work, surely?

Not necessarily. It is quite easy to find places, where those cracks are to be found, and read reactions. People saying if it works or not, if there are any problems, what those problems are, if there's some way to correct them, etc.

The Internet is a veeeeeeery large place, you know, full of all kinds of things.

Heh - they may not know either. It's in some of their interests to post that they have a working crack. Doesn't mean it's true.

As I said - you don't know unless you try.

I, as well as many other have had zero problems with steam and have had no problems activating the game and so I will continue to use it for the foreseeable future.

With FM players steam seems to be a thing to hate and I just don't know why, Steam does nothing wrong, people are just blaming them for something to moan at, if its not FM that's getting slated its Steam. FM Players need to grow up and live with it, everything is not going to be perfect and they need to realise it.

I'm dubious about the OP's level of knowledge about "working pirate copies". You could only know that if you'd tried them - otherwise, you suppose they work, surely? Also - you have no basis to evaluate whether we've been succesful in our objectives or not, without knowing our objectives for the copy protection... so again, supposition?

Personally - I like the Steam service. I have for years ever since HL2. I know that some people hate it and therefore there is an alternative option... Miles insisted on that if we were going to use something like this. That is an indisputable fact - and there is nothing not to like about a one-time activation - a gaming norm from back in the C64 and Spectrum days, and that's only as far as I remember. That, of couse, is assuming that it works properly and I know that we dropped the ball there.

My point, although lacking eloquence (apologies, lots of threads and not much time) was this - that we don't force anyone to use Steam. A one-time activation is now a minimal hassle - I have already covered off and apologised profusely for the early issues - for playing a great game. If people want to vote with their wallets, that is a decision that we accepted when we went ahead in the first place. It's not ideal but we're not going to know how people respond to such systems without trying them, and we're not going to get working solutions without getting involved, either.

In the case of the thread quote - all I can say is that I do get a little frustrated when people cut off their noses to spite their faces - especially if they then choose to broadcast the fact in an unconstructive manner that doesn't actually have a basis in fact - i.e. that Steam is forced on anyone. It clearly isn't.

All of that said - we haven't determined what we'll do next year, at this point. If people genuinely object, we'll look for alternatives. We've stated that already. We're also going to review whether or not we feel the system has worked - clearly initially it didn't.

Lastly - apologies for the Mac downloads thing, I hadn't heard much about that. I'll ask SI if there's a plan - they normally look after it themselves and I don't know where it is. I'll post when I get an answer.

Cheers

Matt

Well said. Thank you for your response and Marry Christmas.

STEAM works. I'd never heard of it before, but now I'm glad I have it.

Uniloc, on the other hand, does not impress me.

whats wrong with uniloc for everyone? i just enetred my code and that was it, ready to play :S

whats wrong with uniloc for everyone? i just enetred my code and that was it, ready to play :S

There was a huge problem on the first weekend but it's been pretty reliable since.

It's hazy in my memory but wasn't there something coded ni a few versions ago where pirate copies would only work in pesos or something along them lines. I seem to remember people popping up complaining about it, when they were basically telling everyone they had a pirate version.

If they could put that in, could they not put some kind of game breaker in? Preferably after a couple of seasons, you know, to screw them up more...

I had no problems with uniloc, heard bad things in the past about steam, so avoided it when I saw the option.

lack of care????????????

what other company is active on their forum every day and nearly all day to communicate with their customers?

Go buy an EA product and see how much they care when it doesn't work properly for you.

lack of care????????????

what other company is active on their forum every day and nearly all day to communicate with their customers?

Go buy an EA product and see how much they care when it doesn't work properly for you.

Amen to that! But save some question marks for the rest of us.

I used steam for the first time and it's been ok with me and I'm not exactly a computer nerd either.

So, I don't intend to boycott SI and if I have the chance, I will buy the game. However, I believe that FM 2010 will be something I will expect much, much less eagerly than previous games. That's a shame.

My thoughts exactly.

Hmm can't say I expect anything from S.I. after 2008 ..

This year has been a disaster but - as ever - S.I. do finish the job eventually and its always worth the wait.

I just won't be buying the game next year until Patch 3.

Its gone the way of Windows with the 'yeah? hot dog! remind me again when service pack two is released .. ' mentality.

If I had bought the game in February, I would have missed nothing at all and saved 50% at least on the asking price. The fact I would also be picking up a finished game would be the icing on the cake.

2010 is going to have to be pretty damn amazing to persuade me to waste my money three years consecutively: not a lot is worth paying extra for and the anger/frustration when you realise you have wasted money and hours of your life on a beta is not worth it.

I'd rather do something else ..

Guys, this is really simple.

If you bought the game and didn't like it / the activation system or anything else - Don't buy the next one. End of topic.

I have every CM / FM since CM2 and will continue to buy them as I lose hours of my life playing them. I had a few problems at the start, but looking back, it was probably me , not the system ! I have had no problems playing the game, no freezes, nothing. I don't use the 3D graphics, I don't even use the 2D. I play every game at high speed and just play !

Yes, it is like playing the old school CM / FM , and that is how I like it.

Everyone is different guys, but why oh why spend hours on these boards complaining ?

So, I don't intend to boycott SI and if I have the chance, I will buy the game. However, I believe that FM 2010 will be something I will expect much, much less eagerly than previous games. That's a shame.

Well, I'm going to keep it simple - I will boycott FM2010...

SEGA/SI joint commercial decision to release an unfinished game KNOWING no proper testing had been done is disrespectful and dishonest to hard core fans.

Look at the latest patch(9.2.0) fix list, most of the items are long overdue fixes since in-house alpha-testing.

I'm done paying full price for half-finished product, basta! The only way for me to spend any more money on SI goods (hmm... hundreds of dollars already) is to buy a complete and properly tested FM2010.

P.S: FYI - I used to buy 5-6 copies of FM every year for my nephews and friends as a Christmas gift, but not anymore... I've said it before and I can it say again- FM has a zero gift value. Very disappointing...

So a lot of this thread is basically a whinge. You really don't have to tell us you're boycotting it, you know. Just do so and save everyone the drama.

The thing with Steam, if you're like me, that just likes to install things which are really, really, really, necessary and do perform some useful function, is that it really doesn't add nothing to the game. Just more overhead to the whole system.

Some say that they got the patch fast, etc. Bah! I also got the patch relatively fast and I don't have Steam. I just started it and went outside; when I returned it had finished. I was also not at all in a hurry to get the patch! Some people react as if their life depend on it.

I'm glad there's the Uniloc option, which will be there once and be gone for life. For me, something like Steam is the pits and I very much doubt I'd ever install software which requires something like that.

Go buy an EA product and see how much they care when it doesn't work properly for you.

While I agree that SI's customer service is of a very good standard, excusing poor customer service because it's better than a competitors is not the way to go.

You think Saddam Hussein was bad, you should have tried living in Hitler's Germany

Steam for me is a godsend. Living in Switzerland, it is very hard to find and purchase English games here. Using Steam I get the games I want in English and get them as soon as they are released. I don't have to order from Amazon or some other retailer and pay to get them shipped over. Digital download is the way of the future and is only going to get bigger. No shipping, no packaging and instant delivery. Can't really ask for more than that. Well... maybe some nice discounts wouldn't go astray...

I thoroughly dislike steam, ironically from years back when installing HL2! I made a conscious decision not to use steam for FM09. SI were good enough to include another option which i dutifully used, problem solved.

Personally I'm really glad that SI chose to use Steam. I'd never used it before and it is only through FM that I found it is a useful program.

It does nothing special but it does nothing badly...well not that I've seen.

I see no reason why they shouldn't continue to use it for FM10.

I'd never used it before and it is only through FM that I found it is a useful program.

It does nothing special but it does nothing badly...well not that I've seen.

You think it's useful but it doesn't do nothing special? So, exactly why do you think it's an useful program, again? Does it help you with your tactics? Player conditioning? Scouting? Maybe it gives you extra cash to spend on players?

The point is that this is a football management game. What is Steam doing in the middle if they don't improve the game? They provide patches fast? I'm also reading people complaining that they didn't want to install the patch but that Steam installed it anyway? I prefer to have control over what occurs on my PC and Steam doesn't help me achieve that goal.

For people who find it useful to purchase the game through them, they might have a point there. Anyay, there are plenty of good online game shops. And the prices are a lot lower than Steam, it seems. I got mine for 19 Euros at www.game.pt; 22 with postage. Isn't Steam more expensive?

Anyway, as long as there's a way to install the game and avoid Steam, it's all good.

I'm dubious about the OP's level of knowledge about "working pirate copies". You could only know that if you'd tried them - otherwise, you suppose they work, surely? Also - you have no basis to evaluate whether we've been succesful in our objectives or not, without knowing our objectives for the copy protection... so again, supposition?

Personally - I like the Steam service. I have for years ever since HL2. I know that some people hate it and therefore there is an alternative option... Miles insisted on that if we were going to use something like this. That is an indisputable fact - and there is nothing not to like about a one-time activation - a gaming norm from back in the C64 and Spectrum days, and that's only as far as I remember. That, of couse, is assuming that it works properly and I know that we dropped the ball there.

My point, although lacking eloquence (apologies, lots of threads and not much time) was this - that we don't force anyone to use Steam. A one-time activation is now a minimal hassle - I have already covered off and apologised profusely for the early issues - for playing a great game. If people want to vote with their wallets, that is a decision that we accepted when we went ahead in the first place. It's not ideal but we're not going to know how people respond to such systems without trying them, and we're not going to get working solutions without getting involved, either.

In the case of the thread quote - all I can say is that I do get a little frustrated when people cut off their noses to spite their faces - especially if they then choose to broadcast the fact in an unconstructive manner that doesn't actually have a basis in fact - i.e. that Steam is forced on anyone. It clearly isn't.

All of that said - we haven't determined what we'll do next year, at this point. If people genuinely object, we'll look for alternatives. We've stated that already. We're also going to review whether or not we feel the system has worked - clearly initially it didn't.

Lastly - apologies for the Mac downloads thing, I hadn't heard much about that. I'll ask SI if there's a plan - they normally look after it themselves and I don't know where it is. I'll post when I get an answer.

Cheers

Matt

Matt, you'd be surprised to know how much you can find out in community forums, non-official sites and discussion groups (particularly in other languages), testing or not. And there is a fact: there are more complains in this forum than in any other FM version. Anyway, thanks for the answer and sorry if I was rude; it was not intentional.

SEGA/SI joint commercial decision to release an unfinished game KNOWING no proper testing had been done is disrespectful and dishonest to hard core fans.

That's just a rant full of supposition and nonsense. Of course the game was tested. I think you're twisting an admission about the compatibility testing not being as rigorous as we'd desired to suit your own ends. Ultimately, you're voting with your wallet, which is your inalienable right. Of course. I could point out that the demo is there for you to satisfy yourself as to the quality of the product and that we force no-one to buy it?

Matt, you'd be surprised to know how much you can find out in community forums, non-official sites and discussion groups (particularly in other languages), testing or not. And there is a fact: there are more complains in this forum than in any other FM version. Anyway, thanks for the answer and sorry if I was rude; it was not intentional.

I read numerous FM forums and would agree - most of the issues that I see are related to the change in technology to make the 3d work, or the activation - both of which it's highly reasonable to assume will be better next year. I'm not sure there are more complaints about the actual game itself this year than any other - this forum is always rammed with them from the important to the insignificant. It's using these constructively that makes the game better.

Regardless of that - we'll review DRM, technology, compatibility testing and gameplay testing before the next release to make sure we learn from this one. We'd be stupid not to with a fanbase the size of FM's and a product of its complexity.

That's just a rant full of supposition and nonsense.

On thesese forums Never.

That's just a rant full of supposition and nonsense. Of course the game was tested. I think you're twisting an admission about the compatibility testing not being as rigorous as we'd desired to suit your own ends. Ultimately, you're voting with your wallet, which is your inalienable right. Of course. I could point out that the demo is there for you to satisfy yourself as to the quality of the product and that we force no-one to buy it?

First of all, demo playability claims of yours only suggest that demo is allegedly ok for 6 month in-game time. However, due to the fact that "testing blokes" don't bother to advance beyond ONE season into the game, customers end up paying for a flawed game with critical bugs such as a) FM08 - No fixtures 2nd season in Scottish League b) FM09 - 24.07.09 crash (serie C bug).

Matt, after seeing your response on this issue, I will not only boycott FM2010 but also encourage other people to stop buying FM until SI/SEGA implement a better game-testing protocol. Would you be kind enough to share with us SEGA QA procedures with regard to game beta-testing /pre-release stage?

supposition and nonsense

Please don't close this thread as yet, I will get back to you on this.

BTW, are you familiar with a term "due deligence"? Do you think it applies to you?

On thesese forums Never.

Hehe. I haven't laughed this hard since Dexter killed Miguel ..

:thup:

In order to avoid misunderstanding and unnecessary confrontation, let's put speculation and questionable interpretation aside and stick to the facts. I believe, last year Miles J. promised to review and improve testing procedures. So, I would appreciate if SEGA/SI could fill in the dates and figures below (I hope this is not commercially sensitive info):

1. Date stable FM build completed _______.

2.a) Date alpha-testing commenced _______.

b) Date alpha-testing completed ________.

c) Number of PCs, man/hours______.

3. a) Date beta-testing commenced _______.

b) Date beta-testing completed ________.

c) Number of PCs, man/hours________.

4. Date FM09 went "Gold" ______.

Thank you.

the issue with the testing is yes, of course they MUST have tested the game but it seems inconceivable that any credible team of testers would miss the huge amount of game-frustrating bugs present. i'm talking about things you would notice just casually playing, aka injuries ; arsenal domination ; strikers ; long ball ; man city being ******** ; etc etc. so many things are so exploitable it's actually a struggle to play FM09 pre9.2 because i just feel endlessly guilty if i 'abuse' (use) any of the things i mentioned there.

this is without moving on to the july 24, but that could perhaps be forgiveable because it seemed to be a very subjective bug.

A very relevant and interesting question Krondor - i would be interested to know that also

I suppose its all down to money...and the pressure to get the game out in enough time before xmas. Having said some of the bugs were glaringly evident......Still what large game isn't released without bugs and then patched after the event??

wow..get over yourself bud. What are you the chairman of SI now? Get a life

In order to avoid misunderstanding and unnecessary confrontation, let's put speculation and questionable interpretation aside and stick to the facts. I believe, last year Miles J. promised to review and improve testing procedures. So, I would appreciate if SEGA/SI could fill in the dates and figures below (I hope this is not commercially sensitive info):

1. Date stable FM build completed _______.

2.a) Date alpha-testing commenced _______.

b) Date alpha-testing completed ________.

c) Number of PCs, man/hours______.

3. a) Date beta-testing commenced _______.

b) Date beta-testing completed ________.

c) Number of PCs, man/hours________.

4. Date FM09 went "Gold" ______.

Thank you.

I agree. If you're going to boycott, SI and SEGA have no obligation to give you that info.

I agree. If you're going to boycott, SI and SEGA have no obligation to give you that info.

Or even if he doesn't boycott.

However, due to the fact that "testing blokes" don't bother to advance beyond ONE season into the game, customers end up paying for a flawed game with critical bugs such as a) FM08 - No fixtures 2nd season in Scottish League b) FM09 - 24.07.09 crash (serie C bug).

Oh look, more supposition based on no actual fact or knowledge. Neither of those issues affects every game so it's conceivable that they weren't spotted in testing (I have no idea if they were or not).

Matt, after seeing your response on this issue, I will not only boycott FM2010 but also encourage other people to stop buying FM until SI/SEGA implement a better game-testing protocol.

As I already explained - that's your right. I can no longer influence your view as you're clearly more interested in making up your own facts and statistics. Your call.

Would you be kind enough to share with us SEGA QA procedures with regard to game beta-testing /pre-release stage? Please don't close this thread as yet, I will get back to you on this.

BTW, are you familiar with a term "due deligence"? Do you think it applies to you?

Ummm, no, I wouldn't.

OK, I won't.

Yes, I am. Me personally, or SEGA, or SI, or all of the above?

Even if I was particularly well versed in our QA procedures, I doubt I'd be sharing them on a forum. I am prepared to ask Miles about it when he returns and he can cover that off if you'd prefer?

Oh look, more supposition based on no actual fact or knowledge. Neither of those issues affects every game so it's conceivable that they weren't spotted in testing (I have no idea if they were or not).

As I already explained - that's your right. I can no longer influence your view as you're clearly more interested in making up your own facts and statistics. Your call.

Ummm, no, I wouldn't.

OK, I won't.

Yes, I am. Me personally, or SEGA, or SI, or all of the above?

Even if I was particularly well versed in our QA procedures, I doubt I'd be sharing them on a forum. I am prepared to ask Miles about it when he returns and he can cover that off if you'd prefer?

Sorry Matt but I would really like to know why you are here and not enjoying your Christmas. I believe when people get so one-eyed that you really shouldn't bother.

Gotta say I agree regarding the perils of arguing with idiots ..

Personally, I'm still waiting for Matt to make a post that doesn't contain a hyphen. :thup:

I'm struggling in season 1 of my patched game. Thought I'd read the forums as a diversion. More fool me...

And Les Girondins - I like hyphens...

I'm struggling in season 1 of my patched game. Thought I'd read the forums as a diversion. More fool me...

And Les Girondins - I like hyphens...

, I am doing alright, maybe you should give up mate go enjoy christmas.

To say si/sega lack care is harsh they are on most days (dedicating alot of there personal time) and are more than willing to help people/customers as much as they can via the forum, but they are more at risk of losing customers because this years game is shockingly bad incomparrison to previous years games.

I've just signed the entire Nigerian u19's squad at Djurgården.

Narrowly avoided the sack in 1st season by winning the domestic cup ..

Finished a truly wretched 12th tho. :o

Reading through this thread it seems as though a lot of the comments are aimed at matt personally and not at the companies. I for one have no problems with Sega/SI using steam for activation I found the process quick and easy due to the fact that my game arrived 3 days after release. I think a lot of problems were caused by everyone trying to activate at once. Also once SI had finished the game and realised with help from everyone on the forums who had played the demo the got a patch made and released on release day. One last thing as had been said on here if you want to boycott SI's management games that is your choice. Merry Christmas to one and all on the forums and at Sega and SI.

Heh - they may not know either. It's in some of their interests to post that they have a working crack.

As opposed to posts saying the illegal game is full of bugs on the SI forum?

Your interests are of course more just, but since it's used to defend the DRM used as I have seen elsewhere on this forum, not exactly a reliable source to go by.