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DS
12-01-2008, 00:18
Match Overview (http://img267.imageshack.us/img267/8271/bahamasvcanadaoverviewff9.png)
Match Stats (http://img530.imageshack.us/img530/7868/bahamasvcanadastatsmatcrs5.png)
Player Ratings (http://img530.imageshack.us/img530/3686/bahamasvcanadastatsplayln8.png) My Team's Stats (http://img267.imageshack.us/img267/2937/bahamasvcanadastatsawayxr0.png)

Please look at those screenshots first. I am managing Canada.

I am not even going to bother with the obvious bug or cheating or whatever you want to call it where Bahamas had 3 shots on goal and scored 3 while I had 19 and scored 4. I will not complain about the fact that I was loosing 3-0 to a team who I am much better then.

But what I have a problem with is the fact that my goalkeeper let in 3 goals and made no saves and gets a match rating of 7. That performance deserves a 2 or a 3 but how does he get a 7? The opposition goalkeeper saved 15 shots and let in 4 and gets a 6. Now that performance should have a 7 or something but maybe a 6 is also fair? But compare the opposition goalkeepers performance to my goalkeepers performance and he should have a 10. This isnt the first time I have seen this. I have seen this many times. Almost always. The human controlled team's goalkeeper always gets higher ratings to make it look like he is playing better. Why would Si do that? Because the AI keepers are always performing better and this is used to disguise that fact. Si really need to fix this blatant attempt to deceive us.

DS
12-01-2008, 00:18
Match Overview (http://img267.imageshack.us/img267/8271/bahamasvcanadaoverviewff9.png)
Match Stats (http://img530.imageshack.us/img530/7868/bahamasvcanadastatsmatcrs5.png)
Player Ratings (http://img530.imageshack.us/img530/3686/bahamasvcanadastatsplayln8.png) My Team's Stats (http://img267.imageshack.us/img267/2937/bahamasvcanadastatsawayxr0.png)

Please look at those screenshots first. I am managing Canada.

I am not even going to bother with the obvious bug or cheating or whatever you want to call it where Bahamas had 3 shots on goal and scored 3 while I had 19 and scored 4. I will not complain about the fact that I was loosing 3-0 to a team who I am much better then.

But what I have a problem with is the fact that my goalkeeper let in 3 goals and made no saves and gets a match rating of 7. That performance deserves a 2 or a 3 but how does he get a 7? The opposition goalkeeper saved 15 shots and let in 4 and gets a 6. Now that performance should have a 7 or something but maybe a 6 is also fair? But compare the opposition goalkeepers performance to my goalkeepers performance and he should have a 10. This isnt the first time I have seen this. I have seen this many times. Almost always. The human controlled team's goalkeeper always gets higher ratings to make it look like he is playing better. Why would Si do that? Because the AI keepers are always performing better and this is used to disguise that fact. Si really need to fix this blatant attempt to deceive us.

eXistenZ
12-01-2008, 02:56
Si is not deceiving us they are screwing us. I need to reload every match to get a result that reflect the chances. Right now i lost to real with Milan
My shots on target: 15 off target: 15
Their shot on target: 4 off target: 5
Final score 2-1 for real. Just complete crap.

Bongo-Bongo
12-01-2008, 03:03
The problem is, these stats don't actually tell the whole story. For all we know, the Bahamas goalie may have been at fault for at least one of the goals, whilst, although your goalie diodn't make a save, we can't tell how many crosses plucked out of the air. Looking at the cross completion stat for the Bahamas, it looks like it's possible it could be quite a few, so it's possible this helped his rating. I won't deny that it seems odd, but there could be more to this then meets the eye.

I also noticed that the Bahamas scored their final goal in the 47th minute. This is pure speculation on my behalf, as I have no eveidence to back this up, but, on my current save, I have noticed that if a goalie has been doing badly, but then goes for a long period of time with little to do, or anything of any importance, then his match rating may creep up a little, whilst if a goalie is playing a blinder, and then lets two quick goals in, his rating can plummit, and in the case of the Bahamas, this happened twice, so this is a possibility. Like I said though, I have no real evidence of this, bar one or two matches, which isn't really enough, but it's a possibility.

T-Bag
12-01-2008, 03:25
The stats have been borderline useless for a few versions now and I was hoping this may have been reworked in FM08. But like EVERYTHING ELSE it's been left exactly the bloody same because "FM08 is our greatest game ever!"

I beat a team 4-3 the other day and the opposition goalkeeper got a 10 ?? Sometimes my GK will save 10 shots, not concede a goal and get a 6 ?

But outfield is where the main problem is. You can be a couple of goals down and all of your players just get rated 6 or 7 and possibly the occasional 5. They need to use the full range of ratings to give you an understanding of why your team is playing bad. Look at ratings in a newspaper after a team wins a game and find me one where the entire team gets 7's and 8's.

The rating system is just one of many areas which is borderline broken on FM08.

gavnoble
12-01-2008, 03:52
Of course the fact that your strikers probably have poor finishing, anticipation and composure skills doesn't come into the equation does it?

Glyn
12-01-2008, 04:04
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by gavnoble:
Of course the fact that your strikers probably have poor finishing, anticipation and composure skills doesn't come into the equation does it? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

And that's if the manager knows how to use them properly.

Jimmyt
12-01-2008, 04:25
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by gavnoble:
Of course the fact that your strikers probably have poor finishing, anticipation and composure skills doesn't come into the equation does it? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Why would the Bahamas have such brilliant strikers though?

I just came on to talk about the same thing. Every time I concede a goal I look at the stats and mroe often than not it'll be their first shot.

If I'm restricting the opposition to two chances in a game, then my defence is doing well. But in real life teams don't continually score every chance they get.

Ackter
12-01-2008, 04:43
Win every game? [Yes/No]

Seriously.

Jimmyt
12-01-2008, 04:52
No.

But this happens way too often.

You have to carve out 5 or 10 chances for ewach goasl but whoever you play can score with their first chance time after time.

I don't want to win EVERY game. I want to have a fighting chance against oposition teams. And that means a modicum of reality in the chances/goals ratio on BOTH sides of the equation.

These are my last two games and both of them have the opposition scoring with their first shot (or two with their first two)

Fulham (http://img141.imageshack.us/img141/4507/everychanceve2.jpg)

West Ham (http://img524.imageshack.us/img524/542/everychance2ab7.jpg)

I could go back further for more examples.

gavnoble
12-01-2008, 05:14
I always tend to give the same reply to this fault - are the same people complaining about this when it happens to them as vocal on here when they are dominate and yet win with their only shot on goal? Answer, no. I've had as many games where I've been dominated and yet won than I have where I've dominated and lost to a team's only two shots on target etc.

People who complain about their teams' shot to goal ratio should perhaps look at real life football a bit more - even the best teams in England such as Man Utd, Arsenal, Chelsea and Liverpool all have far more shots on goal than they actually score, with a fair proportion of them being off target. They lose to teams who have fewer shots on goal - in some cases an oppositions only shot - so I guess this is a bug and SI ned to sort it out in real life as well?

George Graham
12-01-2008, 05:22
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by gavnoble:
I always tend to give the same reply to this fault - are the same people complaining about this when it happens to them as vocal on here when they are dominate and yet win with their only shot on goal? Answer, no. I've had as many games where I've been dominated and yet won than I have where I've dominated and lost to a team's only two shots on target etc.

People who complain about their teams' shot to goal ratio should perhaps look at real life football a bit more - even the best teams in England such as Man Utd, Arsenal, Chelsea and Liverpool all have far more shots on goal than they actually score, with a fair proportion of them being off target. They lose to teams who have fewer shots on goal - in some cases an oppositions only shot - so I guess this is a bug and SI ned to sort it out in real life as well? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Actually yes, as this issue (which we all know is a known isse with the match engine) can be exploited by us as unlike the AI we know that there are certain chances we can allow in huge numbers that wont get scored.

Using certain tactics (not outlandish or super tactics) this scenario happens game after game- this is not right.

Gav, Yes it happens in real life- but not as often as it does in FM, and certainly the amount of chances created in FM at times is very rare in real life.

There was no need for another thread, but also I cant believe people are actually also ignoring the fact that this is a known issue and one that should be fixed in the patch.

Jopo12
12-01-2008, 05:30
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by gavnoble:
I always tend to give the same reply to this fault - are the same people complaining about this when it happens to them as vocal on here when they are dominate and yet win with their only shot on goal? Answer, no. I've had as many games where I've been dominated and yet won than I have where I've dominated and lost to a team's only two shots on target etc.
</div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I bet you understand yourself too how human mind works. Who really gets angry if they benefit? I think everyone would only be happy to win. And what you really would think if someone came here ranting that they are winning too easily http://community.sigames.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif?

I find it funny when it happens, while it isn't too frequent nowadays because 9/10 times it goes against me. But it surely brings enjoyment and isn't any "injustice" against anybody. I really don't care if I win a "realistic" computer game by unrealistic way, but it bugs me very much to lose unrealistically every second match or something. It's different if I was playing against another human, it wouldn't be that satisfiable at all to "cheat".

eXistenZ
12-01-2008, 05:33
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by gavnoble:
Of course the fact that your strikers probably have poor finishing, anticipation and composure skills doesn't come into the equation does it? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

And what about this? all my strikers have at least 18 for finishing an are mental ok

http://img204.imageshack.us/my.php?image=94059498lx7.png

Start to open your eyes

Jimmyt
12-01-2008, 05:56
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Jimmyt:
No.

But this happens way too often.

You have to carve out 5 or 10 chances for ewach goasl but whoever you play can score with their first chance time after time.

I don't want to win EVERY game. I want to have a fighting chance against oposition teams. And that means a modicum of reality in the chances/goals ratio on BOTH sides of the equation.

These are my last two games and both of them have the opposition scoring with their first shot (or two with their first two)

Fulham (http://img141.imageshack.us/img141/4507/everychanceve2.jpg)

West Ham (http://img524.imageshack.us/img524/542/everychance2ab7.jpg)

I could go back further for more examples. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

And again.

Shocker. (http://img293.imageshack.us/img293/2741/everychance3zb9.jpg)

Three times in four games that the opposition has scored with their first shot. This time, of course, it was the ubiquitous 25 yard free-kick supergoal that it's tactically impossible to defend against.

gavnoble
12-01-2008, 06:04
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by eXistenZ:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by gavnoble:
Of course the fact that your strikers probably have poor finishing, anticipation and composure skills doesn't come into the equation does it? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

And what about this? all my strikers have at least 18 for finishing an are mental ok

http://img204.imageshack.us/my.php?image=94059498lx7.png

Start to open your eyes </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

What are their anticipation stats? What are their composure stats? No point having a finishing ability of 18 if you don't have good anticipatyion and composure stats is there?

My eyes are open by the way - they need to be to type! http://community.sigames.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_razz.gif

I just don't see it as the huge problem as everyone else does - but then part of that is that I'm still playing FM 2007 and not FM 2008, so can't really comment on that match engine.

Silver Foxx
12-01-2008, 06:06
SI what is your reply to these very valid points???

It's strange that this type of topic is never replied to by SI at all.............

Jimmyt
12-01-2008, 06:13
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Jimmyt:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Jimmyt:
No.

But this happens way too often.

You have to carve out 5 or 10 chances for ewach goasl but whoever you play can score with their first chance time after time.

I don't want to win EVERY game. I want to have a fighting chance against oposition teams. And that means a modicum of reality in the chances/goals ratio on BOTH sides of the equation.

These are my last two games and both of them have the opposition scoring with their first shot (or two with their first two)

Fulham (http://img141.imageshack.us/img141/4507/everychanceve2.jpg)

West Ham (http://img524.imageshack.us/img524/542/everychance2ab7.jpg)

I could go back further for more examples. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

And again.

Shocker. (http://img293.imageshack.us/img293/2741/everychance3zb9.jpg)

Three times in four games that the opposition has scored with their first shot. This time, of course, it was the ubiquitous 25 yard free-kick supergoal that it's tactically impossible to defend against. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

And the final score there....

ta da! (http://img261.imageshack.us/img261/6396/everychance4yl6.jpg)

Jopo12
12-01-2008, 06:16
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by gavnoble:
What are their anticipation stats? What are their composure stats? No point having a finishing ability of 18 if you don't have good anticipatyion and composure stats is there?
</div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I could bet again that as the date seems to be April 2008 and the team is AC Milan some who has even a slight clue about football could think that maybe in their best day those strikers could score at least a couple of "lucky" goals...

But on the another hand I'd say that Kaka, Inzaghi and Ronaldo to begin with are sold or injured and therefore they lack that composure and ability to score. Not to mention those suckable other attackers like Gilardino and Pato. So it's pretty obvious that he just doesn't have the players and resources to cut it... http://community.sigames.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

Ackter
12-01-2008, 06:30
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Silver Foxx:
SI what is your reply to these very valid points???

It's strange that this type of topic is never replied to by SI at all............. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

There's been plenty of reply from SI about this issue - have a search through some of the other 3million threads on this exact issue. If SI responded to every thread there'd be no time left to actually make the game.

Mike A
12-01-2008, 06:39
Got the opposite problem (or quirk, not sure if it really is a problem).

Playing St Albans vs Oxford, tipped to lose, instead win 3-0 with Oxford taking 18 shots (7 on target) and my team had 19 shots (8 on target).

My keeper saves a penalty in the 47th minute (which would have made the score 2-1 to us, but brought Oxford back into the game) and keeps a clean sheet.

He only gets a rating of 7. I'd have given him a 9 at least!

So, I'm confused as to how a rating is calculated. The ratings have a big affect on confidence (especially in this version of the game) which could ultimately cost a manager his job, so does it need a tweak or is it working as expected, as far as the developers are concerned?

GillsMan
12-01-2008, 07:38
As I pointed out in this thread (http://community.sigames.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/521102691/m/6152001373?r=5632022373#5632022373), there's not a great deal of difference between what we're seeing in FM, and what we see IRL. Take a look at the comparisons between FM stats (both manager-controlled and AI controlled) and IRL stats).

GillsMan
12-01-2008, 07:39
Sorry, this thread: Too many shots / Goals to shots ratio problems - is it just a myth? Stats inside... (http://community.sigames.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/521102691/m/6152001373?r=5632022373)

Wizard
12-01-2008, 08:02
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by gavnoble:

I just don't see it as the huge problem as everyone else does - but then part of that is that I'm still playing FM 2007 and not FM 2008, so can't really comment on that match engine. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Mate...I find it funny that you're defending a match engine you admit not to know anything about... http://community.sigames.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

andyinuk
12-01-2008, 08:25
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Wizard:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by gavnoble:

I just don't see it as the huge problem as everyone else does - but then part of that is that I'm still playing FM 2007 and not FM 2008, so can't really comment on that match engine. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Mate...I find it funny that you're defending a match engine you admit not to know anything about... http://community.sigames.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

because it's the same crap every year from the SI-Bashing gang. EVer since I visited this forum, there are people who complain their strikers don't score enough. As Gav said, they only ever complain if it's against them. I never heard of anyone come here to moan they won a game even though they only have one shot and the other team has 40.

As for the comment about "it doesn't happen that often in real life". Yes it does. More often than people think. But they wouldnt know because all they watch is highlight football where Rooney score a goal from every one or two shot

wahoo05
12-01-2008, 08:40
I don't think there are too many shots, rather that the game creates an unrealistic number of 1-on-1 chances (much more than in real life). Because there are normally not too many of these in real life in each match, a lot of these aren't scored in the game so as to keep the scorelines from becoming too large.

It's always frustrating for me if my strikers blow a large number of 1-on-1 chances in my games, but then I just remember that in real life they wouldn't have so many of these chances anyway (but it is always fun when I have a string of 2-0/3-0 victories and the opposing goalkeeper is the MoM). I hope for this to be sorted out in next update/patch.

eXistenZ
12-01-2008, 09:23
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Jopo12:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by gavnoble:
What are their anticipation stats? What are their composure stats? No point having a finishing ability of 18 if you don't have good anticipatyion and composure stats is there?
</div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I could bet again that as the date seems to be April 2008 and the team is AC Milan some who has even a slight clue about football could think that maybe in their best day those strikers could score at least a couple of "lucky" goals...

But on the another hand I'd say that Kaka, Inzaghi and Ronaldo to begin with are sold or injured and therefore they lack that composure and ability to score. Not to mention those suckable other attackers like Gilardino and Pato. So it's pretty obvious that he just doesn't have the players and resources to cut it... http://community.sigames.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I would agree with you, but i made Milan better in the database so it is not really an issue. Also Gilardini is good enough for Milan in that way. Also i use the real-time editor to fix the dropping mental stats, because it is unrealistic.

So it are not the players, it's the complet ****ed up, prehistorical, screwed match engine

eXistenZ
12-01-2008, 09:29
Please people open your eyes and see what the problem is. SI is already letting us wait until Fevruary, the last thing we need now are some nincompoops who say "it are your players, it's your tactics"

eXistenZ
12-01-2008, 09:45
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Jopo12:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by gavnoble:
What are their anticipation stats? What are their composure stats? No point having a finishing ability of 18 if you don't have good anticipatyion and composure stats is there?
</div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I could bet again that as the date seems to be April 2008 and the team is AC Milan some who has even a slight clue about football could think that maybe in their best day those strikers could score at least a couple of "lucky" goals...

But on the another hand I'd say that Kaka, Inzaghi and Ronaldo to begin with are sold or injured and therefore they lack that composure and ability to score. Not to mention those suckable other attackers like Gilardino and Pato. So it's pretty obvious that he just doesn't have the players and resources to cut it... http://community.sigames.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Another thing: All m ycoaches say in their rapports: "would be a star-player with every Serie A-club". What idiotic explanaition are you giving there?

Even if their rating is not ultimate good, how do you explain that a lot of minor teams (parma, sampdoria livorno) get a score percentage of about 40-50%? while my team can't even reach 5%. It's time you cut your crap. If you can't say anything that makes sense, just **** off

GillsMan
12-01-2008, 09:49
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by eXistenZ:
Even if their rating is not ultimate good, how do you explain that a lot of minor teams (parma, sampdoria livorno) get a score percentage of about 40-50%? while my team can't even reach 5%. It's time you cut your crap. If you can't say anything that makes sense, just **** off </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
Are those percentages accurate, or have you just made them up?

eXistenZ
12-01-2008, 09:59
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by GillsMan:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by eXistenZ:
Even if their rating is not ultimate good, how do you explain that a lot of minor teams (parma, sampdoria livorno) get a score percentage of about 40-50%? while my team can't even reach 5%. It's time you cut your crap. If you can't say anything that makes sense, just **** off </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
Are those percentages accurate, or have you just made them up? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Look at my posted screenshot. i got 1/19= 6%
Real got 1/3= 33%.
But against minor teams they just need one-two chances and they score.

I can't give an accurate percentage, that's why i said 40-50%. But cut the ******** and look at the real problem!

HonkyDick
12-01-2008, 10:05
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by gavnoble:
I just don't see it as the huge problem as everyone else does - but then part of that is that I'm still playing FM 2007 and not FM 2008, so can't really comment on that match engine. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
Why did you then? http://community.sigames.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif
The match engine didn't seem too bad after a couple of patches to 07, 08 is a shambles but because it made #1 on the charts it's the greatest game ever according to SI.
SI admitted the stuff up early in the piece and the tweaks they made after that have resulted in the dodgy stats.
I have had some of those games where I had less shots than the opposition and still won, but it is still a problem whether we win or lose. Hell, the best way to win on this game is probably to try and have a lot less shots than the opposition. http://community.sigames.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_confused.gif

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content"> I don't think there are too many shots, rather that the game creates an unrealistic number of 1-on-1 chances (much more than in real life). Because there are normally not too many of these in real life in each match, a lot of these aren't scored in the game so as to keep the scorelines from becoming too large. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
Nail-on-head. http://community.sigames.com/customicons/icon14.gif
SI didn't know how or couldn't fix it so they fixed it.

I still play and it probably is playable, but there are problems with this game that cannot be denied.

eXistenZ
12-01-2008, 10:12
The problem is there are still nincompoops who deny them

gavnoble
12-01-2008, 10:15
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by HonkyDick:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by gavnoble:
I just don't see it as the huge problem as everyone else does - but then part of that is that I'm still playing FM 2007 and not FM 2008, so can't really comment on that match engine. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Why did you then? http://community.sigames.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif
</div></BLOCKQUOTE>

How about because every single year you get the same posts from people kmoaning about something that I just don't see as being an issue. If you compare shots to goals ratios between real life football and the game there is not too much difference.

People often look for someone to blame when they don't pick up a win on the game and in this case, the match engine seems to be the easy target, instead of looking at their own players - and dare I say - tactics, or even thridly just putting it down to one of those days that even the best teams have from time to time.

You can't win every game you play and losing is frustrating, particualrly when you have dominated but as I said earlier I have had just as many occasions on the game where I have been dominated yet still won the game as to when I have dominated and lost.

To me this is like the so called superkeeper 'bug' that people are always complaining about - it's something that doesn't exist despite what people think.

Bottom line is if they win they they are God's gift to management, if they lose then it's SI to blame because they've made the AI biased against them.

End of the day it's only a poxy computer game, it's hardly life or death.

gavnoble
12-01-2008, 10:16
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by eXistenZ:
The problem is there are still nincompoops who deny them </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

And there are still nincompoops who look for things that don't even exist. They fall inbto the same stupid category as conspiracy theorists. http://community.sigames.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

eXistenZ
12-01-2008, 10:18
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by gavnoble:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by eXistenZ:
The problem is there are still nincompoops who deny them </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

And there are still nincompoops who look for things that don't even exist. They fall inbto the same stupid category as conspiracy theorists. http://community.sigames.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Look i wouldn't care if my opponent also needs 15 chances. But look at the facts. look at the screenshot! 1/19 versus 1/3. And you say their isn't a problem?
Please go back to the stupid hole you came from

gavnoble
12-01-2008, 10:21
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by eXistenZ:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by gavnoble:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by eXistenZ:
The problem is there are still nincompoops who deny them </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

And there are still nincompoops who look for things that don't even exist. They fall inbto the same stupid category as conspiracy theorists. http://community.sigames.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Look i wouldn't care if my opponent also needs 15 chances. But look at the facts. look at the screenshot! 1/19 versus 1/3. And you say their isn't a problem?
Please go back to the stupid hole you came from </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

That'd be my mothers hole, and at 33 years of age, then I don't think there's much chance of that happening dear.

eXistenZ
12-01-2008, 10:24
Typical. I say 2 lines. One about the game and one offending. You should respond to the one the most important.(= the one about the game)
This time i say it clear because you are obviously stupid.

gavnoble
12-01-2008, 10:28
Obviously I must be, after all I keep looking at the same stupid comments about problems that do not exist.

Try going away and looking at some stats from real life football matches, compare the goals to shot ratios and then come back and tell me if there is a problem. The results will surprise you but of course this would involve you actually making some sort of effort on your part, which I doubt you actually want to do because you don't wish to be proved wrong.

Spagbol
12-01-2008, 10:29
If you dig around there's a thread I started somewhere in GQ where I managed to lose a game where the other team played with ten players for almost two hours and had either one or zero shots on goal.

The fans must have had a proper head scratcher on the busses home.

eXistenZ
12-01-2008, 10:34
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by gavnoble:
Obviously I must be, after all I keep looking at the same stupid comments about problems that do not exist.

Try going away and looking at some stats from real life football matches, compare the goals to shot ratios and then come back and tell me if there is a problem. The results will surprise you but of course this would involve you actually making some sort of effort on your part, which I doubt you actually want to do because you don't wish to be proved wrong. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

But this is not a real fotball match. And even then. A week ago, i looked at the bbc about the FA cup matches. They showed the statistics of every match. And as far as i could see, there wasn't a single game that where one team had 6x more chances, but the game still ended in a draw. Yes there were game were it should have been a draw when someone won, or games where there should be a winner where there was a drawn but never something that obvious.

Are you a human or an ostrich who puts his (empty) head in the sand?

Gypsum
12-01-2008, 10:35
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by eXistenZ:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by gavnoble:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by eXistenZ:
The problem is there are still nincompoops who deny them </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

And there are still nincompoops who look for things that don't even exist. They fall inbto the same stupid category as conspiracy theorists. http://community.sigames.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Look i wouldn't care if my opponent also needs 15 chances. But look at the facts. look at the screenshot! 1/19 versus 1/3. And you say their isn't a problem?
Please go back to the stupid hole you came from </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Gavnoble has looked at the facts. Actually, he has compiled some statistics which I am sure you completely ignored in favour of using one example to prove your point.

eXistenZ
12-01-2008, 10:38
I have this every match, but i'm tired of making every time a screenshot to proove something every one here with a bit of commonn sense knows

Bongo-Bongo
12-01-2008, 10:41
Out of interest, how many people who experience a poor shot to goal ratio have gone back through the match report to look at all of the shots and see if there is a reason why so many are being missed? It is incredibly boring, but I found it worthwhile.

I have created one tactic that was seeing my team creating chances but not taking them, so I decided to go through the match reports and look at the shots I my players were having. It turned out many of the shots rushed, blocked or from poor positions. One thing I considered is that perhaps my high attacking mentallity was causing my players to shot on sight instead of trying to carve out a decent oppurtunity. As a result, I decided it may be better to to reduce my mentallity a bit. As a result, whiolst my team were creating fewer chances, they were of better quality, and more were going in.

I'm not going to say that there is no issue here (I am undecided as of yet) but surely it would make more sense to try and find a solution to the problem rather then to continually whinge about it?

eXistenZ
12-01-2008, 10:46
The match engine is the problem, not the tactics. I set all my players "very rare" with distace shot. And still they do it. Also every one-on-one turns out to be pointless.

YOUNGSTEVE
12-01-2008, 10:49
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by gavnoble:
Obviously I must be, after all I keep looking at the same stupid comments about problems that do not exist.

Try going away and looking at some stats from real life football matches, compare the goals to shot ratios and then come back and tell me if there is a problem. The results will surprise you but of course this would involve you actually making some sort of effort on your part, which I doubt you actually want to do because you don't wish to be proved wrong. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

You are wasting your time, as the boy is obviously half-witted. Earlier on in the thread he was telling us how he had to reload every game if the result didn't match what he perceived as matching his world class mangerial skills. http://community.sigames.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

eXistenZ
12-01-2008, 10:50
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by YOUNGSTEVE:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by gavnoble:
Obviously I must be, after all I keep looking at the same stupid comments about problems that do not exist.

Try going away and looking at some stats from real life football matches, compare the goals to shot ratios and then come back and tell me if there is a problem. The results will surprise you but of course this would involve you actually making some sort of effort on your part, which I doubt you actually want to do because you don't wish to be proved wrong. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

You are wasting your time, as the boy is obviously half-witted. Earlier on in the thread he was telling us how he had to reload every game if the result didn't match what he perceived as matching his world class mangerial skills. http://community.sigames.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

What does manager skill matters if the match engine is completly screwed?

GillsMan
12-01-2008, 10:51
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by eXistenZ:
I can't give an accurate percentage, that's why i said 40-50%. But cut the ******** and look at the real problem! </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
Don't be an arse. http://community.sigames.com/customicons/icon13.gif You've given a few isolated examples of your percentages but have provided absolutely NOTHING to say that these figures are indicative of what happens usually. So maybe it's you who should cut the BS and start providing some evidence to back it up?

Bongo-Bongo
12-01-2008, 10:53
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by eXistenZ:
The match engine is the problem, not the tactics. I set all my players "very rare" with distace shot. And still they do it. Also every one-on-one turns out to be pointless. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

How much creative freedom do these players have? Do any players have "tries long shots" as a PPM?

eXistenZ
12-01-2008, 10:54
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by GillsMan:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by eXistenZ:
I can't give an accurate percentage, that's why i said 40-50%. But cut the ******** and look at the real problem! </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
Don't be an arse. http://community.sigames.com/customicons/icon13.gif You've given a few isolated examples of your percentages but have provided absolutely NOTHING to say that these figures are indicative of what happens usually. So maybe it's you who should cut the BS and start providing some evidence to back it up? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Like i said: i'm tired of taking a screenshot of every match, because there are some idiots here who are paid by SI to proclaime "there is nothing wrong with the match engine"

Why should i put effort in prooving something everyone with common sense knows already

butts
12-01-2008, 11:02
There's no doubt theres a problem but it works both ways i had 2 shots to sportings twenty something and won 2-1.

Giziar
12-01-2008, 11:02
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by eXistenZ:

Why should i put effort in prooving something everyone with common sense knows already </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Nice.
With that arguement you're claiming that everyone who has a different opinion than yours has no common sense.
Not only going in against good manners but also against forum etiquette.

*ploink*

Gypsum
12-01-2008, 11:03
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Bongo-Bongo:
Out of interest, how many people who experience a poor shot to goal ratio have gone back through the match report to look at all of the shots and see if there is a reason why so many are being missed? It is incredibly boring, but I found it worthwhile.

I have created one tactic that was seeing my team creating chances but not taking them, so I decided to go through the match reports and look at the shots I my players were having. It turned out many of the shots rushed, blocked or from poor positions. One thing I considered is that perhaps my high attacking mentallity was causing my players to shot on sight instead of trying to carve out a decent oppurtunity. As a result, I decided it may be better to to reduce my mentallity a bit. As a result, whiolst my team were creating fewer chances, they were of better quality, and more were going in.

I'm not going to say that there is no issue here (I am undecided as of yet) but surely it would make more sense to try and find a solution to the problem rather then to continually whinge about it? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I found that whilst playing as Aldershot in the Blue square Premier I was getting a large amount of shots compared to goals. I was using a tactic set I imported from my FM2007 game which needed a bit of tweaking. After looking back through match reports and highlights I started noticing that my wingers were getting a lot of chances one-on-one with the keeper after beating the full back with sheer pace and cutting in from the wing. However, so many of their chances were from such bad angles, which combined with their poor finishing, meant they were blazing them wide. I changed their crossing slider so that they would square it for a striker rather than take it on themselves and my team started scoring goals for fun.

I think that a lot of people who complain about things like this have never even has a look at their tactics, let alone try to adjust them to sort out a problem with their team. The logic that "I've got better players, so I don't need tactics!" has been proven to be flawed. Stand up Mr Eriksson and McLaren!

nymanr
12-01-2008, 11:09
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">And there are still nincompoops who look for things that don't even exist. They fall inbto the same stupid category as conspiracy theorists. Roll Eyes </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

How can you say this when you have admitted that you have not played 08?????

It has been shown in many threads already that the shots/SOG ratio is accurate to real life.

What hasn't been explained is why human players need 15 shots 7 shots on target to get a goal when the AI only needs 4 shots and only 1 on target. That is what i have in my game.

Of course it is a case of my tactics but what exactly should i change when opposition does not get any good chances but score goals and i have average 5 1&1 + 4 clean shot chances per game and walk away with 1-2 goals??? This is the problem.

zeke
12-01-2008, 11:46
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by nymanr:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">And there are still nincompoops who look for things that don't even exist. They fall inbto the same stupid category as conspiracy theorists. Roll Eyes </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

How can you say this when you have admitted that you have not played 08?????

It has been shown in many threads already that the shots/SOG ratio is accurate to real life.

What hasn't been explained is why human players need 15 shots 7 shots on target to get a goal when the AI only needs 4 shots and only 1 on target. That is what i have in my game.

Of course it is a case of my tactics but what exactly should i change when opposition does not get any good chances but score goals and i have average 5 1&1 + 4 clean shot chances per game and walk away with 1-2 goals??? This is the problem. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Exactly! http://community.sigames.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif ...Intresting to read that there are no problems from the guy who has stated that he doesn't even have FM2008!!1 http://community.sigames.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

No FM2008 = No problems... well I cannot say that mr. Gavnoble is inccorect with his statement.

Allthough it is somewhat hilarious to get these expert comments from him after that statement.

eXistenZ
12-01-2008, 12:04
WTF Gavnoble doesn't even have the game, what the heck is he coming to this forum saying i'm wrong. little show of respect, let alone knowledge.

I wonder which clinic he is in?

Glyn
12-01-2008, 12:16
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by nymanr:
What hasn't been explained is why human players need 15 shots 7 shots on target to get a goal when the AI only needs 4 shots and only 1 on target. That is what i have in my game.
</div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Because the AI generally knows how to create better chances, in the same way that Bongo-Bongo and Gypsum have shown how a human manager can do the same.

Glyn
12-01-2008, 12:18
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by eXistenZ:
WTF Gavnoble doesn't even have the game, what the heck is he coming to this forum saying i'm wrong. little show of respect, let alone knowledge.

I wonder which clinic he is in? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

You complaining about someone not showing respect is the pot calling the kettle 'grimy arse'.

You already have a warning to your name. I suggest you start to take notice of it.

eXistenZ
12-01-2008, 12:26
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Glyn:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by eXistenZ:
WTF Gavnoble doesn't even have the game, what the heck is he coming to this forum saying i'm wrong. little show of respect, let alone knowledge.

I wonder which clinic he is in? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

You complaining about someone not showing respect is the pot calling the kettle 'grimy arse'.

You already have a warning to your name. I suggest you start to take notice of it. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

If he hadn't opened his mouth about something he doesn't know about in the first place, nothing would have happened.

Jopo12
12-01-2008, 12:37
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by eXistenZ:
I would agree with you, but i made Milan better in the database so it is not really an issue. Also Gilardini is good enough for Milan in that way. Also i use the real-time editor to fix the dropping mental stats, because it is unrealistic.

So it are not the players, it's the complet ****ed up, prehistorical, screwed match engine </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

That's what I was implying, it's ridiculous to claim that AC Milan can't score and this often. It was just directed to those fools who simply deny FM is having any kind of problem. Be it then the crap from anti-SI-Bashing gang.

But it really is funny that so many lack the brain or anything to see that there are clearly things wrong which can't be explained with "it's your team and tactics"-things. If these guys know that much about football they would realize that the problem is either A) FM is greatly flawed because it is very random whether you succeed or not even with best teams or B) FM is flawed because AC Milan is incorrectly presented in the game if it sucks that much.

Whatever the case is, I really don't get why people bother arguing and defending FM here because they have absolutely no evidence how these things work. But if someone feels there is something wrong and they want clarification, why can't they post here? People who don't have these problems aren't doing anything here because very seldom seem even willing to understand, not to even mention being able to. Sure, everyone has the right to say their thing but don't then blame complainers about making these forums bad or anything as the only problem is opposers being intolerant and selfish.

Why don't everyone feeling the game is great create their own threads to hail SI and FM and leave people who don't think that way alone and let SI to answer? What on earth you think you are gaining? You are doing nothing but making these discussions very unpleasant to read as they are dragged from valid arguments and questions to abusing etc. Nobody is going to change their mind if some fanboi comes here blindly attacking everyone who criticize FM. Why do you bother? Answer is that you are yourselves more stupid than people who complain.

Glyn
12-01-2008, 12:47
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by eXistenZ:
If he hadn't opened his mouth about something he doesn't know about in the first place, nothing would have happened. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

So because someone says something you disagree with, it gives you the right to be offensive and say it's their fault? What a charming world you live in.

Stop trying to blame others and take responsibility for your own actions instead.

Mike7077
12-01-2008, 12:52
eXistenZ - Are you incapable of disagreeing with someone without resorting to petty insults and name-calling? It's so juvenile. I actually tend to come down on your side of the argument. But surely you'll have a better chance of being taken seriously if you behave in a more respectful manner.

eXistenZ
12-01-2008, 13:07
Srry but he comes ramping about something where he obviously doesn't have a clue about.

If you run in at for example Ford motors and say " i know how you have to make cars" and you haven't actually seen a car from close range, you don't only get verbal abuse, but you get kicked out by the security.

He doesn't have a foot to stand on. he doesn't even own the game for heavens sake

If i would come to SI tomorrow, and say "you have to do this and that", and i actually can't program i think i will also get abused.

Kris
12-01-2008, 13:12
Car Analogys http://community.sigames.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

Oh and gavnoble knows what he is talking about. He's broken down the match engine more times then I can count.

Mike7077
12-01-2008, 13:13
So you're claiming to be the 'security' for these boards? They have mods for that. All opinions are welcome, as far as I'm aware. Abuse, however, is not.

andyinuk
12-01-2008, 13:19
Gav is a fanboy? http://community.sigames.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif you mean the bloke who has been one of the biggest critic of FM (the only person I know who had openly refused to buy a new release because he felt it wasn't good enough) is now a fanboy?

andyinuk
12-01-2008, 13:20
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by eXistenZ:
Srry but he comes ramping about something where he obviously doesn't have a clue about.

If you run in at for example Ford motors and say " i know how you have to make cars" and you haven't actually seen a car from close range, you don't only get verbal abuse, but you get kicked out by the security.

He doesn't have a foot to stand on. he doesn't even own the game for heavens sake

If i would come to SI tomorrow, and say "you have to do this and that", and i actually can't program i think i will also get abused. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

You really don't have a clue, do you?

eXistenZ
12-01-2008, 13:32
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Mike7077:
So you're claiming to be the 'security' for these boards? They have mods for that. All opinions are welcome, as far as I'm aware. Abuse, however, is not. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

N i'm not claiming that.
Apparently i am the only one who find it a bit weird that someone who hasn't the game can make so much noise about something he doesn't have a clue about

Wovon man nicht sprechen kann, darüber muß man schweigen."

Mike7077
12-01-2008, 13:35
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by eXistenZ:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Mike7077:
So you're claiming to be the 'security' for these boards? They have mods for that. All opinions are welcome, as far as I'm aware. Abuse, however, is not. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

N i'm not claiming that.
Apparently i am the only one who find it a bit weird that someone who hasn't the game can make so much noise about something he doesn't have a clue about

Wovon man nicht sprechen kann, darüber muß man schweigen." </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Exactly. Your valid point has gotten lost thanks to your childish attitude in delivering it. I'd think on that.

Michael Osmann
12-01-2008, 13:37
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by andyinuk:
Gav is a fanboy? http://community.sigames.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif you mean the bloke who has been one of the biggest critic of FM (the only person I know who had openly refused to buy a new release because he felt it wasn't good enough) is now a fanboy? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Mate, I'm a fanboi http://community.sigames.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Played CM/FM since the beginning. Always loved this game. Actually the only game that I've stayed loyal to *LOL*

eXistenZ
12-01-2008, 13:43
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Mike7077:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by eXistenZ:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Mike7077:
So you're claiming to be the 'security' for these boards? They have mods for that. All opinions are welcome, as far as I'm aware. Abuse, however, is not. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

N i'm not claiming that.
Apparently i am the only one who find it a bit weird that someone who hasn't the game can make so much noise about something he doesn't have a clue about

Wovon man nicht sprechen kann, darüber muß man schweigen." </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Exactly. Your valid point has gotten lost thanks to your childish attitude in delivering it. I'd think on that. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

The most important thing in a discussion is the argument itself, not how the speaker brings it.

Mike7077
12-01-2008, 13:46
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by eXistenZ:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Mike7077:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by eXistenZ:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Mike7077:
So you're claiming to be the 'security' for these boards? They have mods for that. All opinions are welcome, as far as I'm aware. Abuse, however, is not. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

N i'm not claiming that.
Apparently i am the only one who find it a bit weird that someone who hasn't the game can make so much noise about something he doesn't have a clue about

Wovon man nicht sprechen kann, darüber muß man schweigen." </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Exactly. Your valid point has gotten lost thanks to your childish attitude in delivering it. I'd think on that. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

The most important thing in a discussion is the argument itself, not how the speaker brings it. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

True in theory. But in practice, the presentation of an argument often overrides the actual message.

eXistenZ
12-01-2008, 13:48
People should focus more on theory.

heathxxx
12-01-2008, 13:50
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by eXistenZ:

Wovon man nicht sprechen kann, darüber muß man schweigen." </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

What one can not speak, thereof one must be silent

Interesting eulogy there, but the person you question has examined a number of aspects of a number of releases in detail. I would be more likely to understand and comprehend his posts on the matter, given the basis of a well presented argument and critique, without the apparent need to be abusive or offensive to other forum users.

There are issues with FM08, which I'm sure will be fixed at some point.

Everyone is entitled to an opinion, but what gives people the right to be abusive or offensive to others? If someone simply disagrees with your opinion, that's their opinion, there's no need to blast them for it!

Perhaps if you are handy enough to criticise, yet unable to accept it in return, you should perhaps consider your own eulogy, which by the way, is not as "hooded" a sneer posting in another language as you think. We do live in the age of online translation tools you know... http://community.sigames.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Mike7077
12-01-2008, 13:50
Well whilst the majority of people on the boards, and more importantly the mods, prefer it that we refrain from abuse, it might be wise to consider arguing your points like an adult in future.

eXistenZ
12-01-2008, 13:53
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Mike7077:
Well whilst the majority of people on the boards, and more importantly the mods, prefer it that we refrain from abuse, it might be wise to consider arguing your points like an adult in future. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Most people also would like that everyone who doesn't know what he is talking about, keeps silent

Vegard_R
12-01-2008, 13:54
It's like this every year with people complaining.
If you don't like it, don't play it, it's that simple really.

I've won loads of matches were I had 1 or 2 chances, while my opponents had 10-20.

You don't see me coming here complaining about winning a match I should have lost.
Sorry to say this, but this is the way football is.

Kris
12-01-2008, 13:57
eXistenZ : Id advise you to stop this silly tirade as you obviously dont understand how gavnoble can have a very concise input into FM08 even though he doesnt own it (given his prior work).

Take your own advice in your last post eh?

eXistenZ
12-01-2008, 13:59
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Kris:
eXistenZ : Id advise you to stop this silly tirade as you obviously dont understand how gavnoble can have a very concise input into FM08 even though he doesnt own it (given his prior work).

Take your own advice in your last post eh? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I knew what i was talking about. he didn't. who get's the warning? me. it's obvious he provoced me.

heathxxx
12-01-2008, 14:13
eXistenZ - it might be worth listening to the moderator.

People are'nt disagreeing with the problems you have with the game and discussing the matter. People just have a problem with your attitude or approach to the matter.

We can help you only so much, and the mod is being very patient.

Let it go and continue presenting your argument in a more constructive manner. http://community.sigames.com/customicons/icon14.gif

Kris
12-01-2008, 14:16
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by eXistenZ:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Kris:
eXistenZ : Id advise you to stop this silly tirade as you obviously dont understand how gavnoble can have a very concise input into FM08 even though he doesnt own it (given his prior work).

Take your own advice in your last post eh? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I knew what i was talking about. he didn't. who get's the warning? me. it's obvious he provoced me. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
No you didnt (well not articuatly anyway)
Yes he did
Yes you did
No he didn't

In that order.

GillsMan
12-01-2008, 14:19
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by eXistenZ:
I knew what i was talking about. he didn't. who get's the warning? me. it's obvious he provoced me. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
You should try to be mature enough not to be "provoced" (sic) by other people.

Listen, people don't like being given abuse for no reason. I didn't even disagree with what you were saying, and I got accused by you of talking BS (just because I had the audacity to ask if the figures you'd quoted were guesses or if you'd actually gone through and done the number crunching).

I've no time for people who act idiotic and can't make their points - however valid - without being abusive. http://community.sigames.com/customicons/icon13.gif

B. Stinson
12-01-2008, 14:25
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">The human controlled team's goalkeeper always gets higher ratings to make it look like he is playing better. Why would Si do that? Because the AI keepers are always performing better and this is used to disguise that fact. Si really need to fix this blatant attempt to deceive us. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Sounds to me like you're just reaching for things to complain about, because this point is stretching it.

If you yourself saw the performance and think it was only worthy of a 2, then why are you believing the 7 that the game gave out? Aren't you capable of avoiding deception by siding with your own judgments?

Miles Jacobson
12-01-2008, 14:33
To answer a couple of points on the front page, the reason we don't answer posts like this is firstly because it's a duplicate of something mentioned often, and secondly because we have answered on others on the same subject.

As for the person who mentioned last weeks FA Cup stats, I haven't seen those, so can't comment on them. However, and somewhat ironically, the game that I watched live on TV last week was the Real Madrid v Real Zaragoza game, a game where Zaragoza had 20 odd shots, and didn't score, whereas Madrid had only a few shots, and scored 2.

George Graham
12-01-2008, 14:41
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by gavnoble:
Obviously I must be, after all I keep looking at the same stupid comments about problems that do not exist.

Try going away and looking at some stats from real life football matches, compare the goals to shot ratios and then come back and tell me if there is a problem. The results will surprise you but of course this would involve you actually making some sort of effort on your part, which I doubt you actually want to do because you don't wish to be proved wrong. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

What a ridiculous post.

Why as somebody who isnt even playing FM08 you feel you can be so condescending to somebody regarding a known and very annoying issue that you obviously are unaware of (or just do not even want to consider may exist) is beyond me.

GillsMan
12-01-2008, 14:47
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by George Graham:
What a ridiculous post.

Why as somebody who isnt even playing FM08 you feel you can be so condescending to somebody regarding a known and very annoying issue that you obviously are unaware of (or just do not even want to consider may exist) is beyond me. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
Actually, GN was right - FM stats do broadly mirror IRL stats. There seems to be a misconception on this forum among many that there aren't that many shots in football matches, or that the percentage of shots on target to goals is higher IRL than it actually is.

Having looked at a number of IRL games and compared them to AI controlled matches in the game they are about right (with the right proportion of 'crazy' matches too, IMO).

The difficult comes when looking at human teams - now, I'm not the best FM manager in the world by any means, I'm normally rubbish. However, by assessing the match engine I've created a tactic which suits my Gillingham team very well. I'm not experiencing any of the problems reported in this post - sometimes I dominate matches and the other team wins, sometimes the other team dominates and I win, that's football.

The point is, I'm not alone in this so at least some of this widely reported issue *has* to be down to user error in not fully understanding the game, or using the wrong tactics and/or personnel. Well, that's my opinion anyway.

jazzysheff
12-01-2008, 15:47
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Miles Jacobson:
To answer a couple of points on the front page, the reason we don't answer posts like this is firstly because it's a duplicate of something mentioned often, and secondly because we have answered on others on the same subject.

As for the person who mentioned last weeks FA Cup stats, I haven't seen those, so can't comment on them. However, and somewhat ironically, the game that I watched live on TV last week was the Real Madrid v Real Zaragoza game, a game where Zaragoza had 20 odd shots, and didn't score, whereas Madrid had only a few shots, and scored 2. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>


And as i have stated earlier this is one game in 40 odd league games. In FM it happens every single match !!! http://community.sigames.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_mad.gif

GillsMan
12-01-2008, 16:13
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by jazzysheff:
And as i have stated earlier this is one game in 40 odd league games. In FM it happens every single match !!! http://community.sigames.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_mad.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
NO IT DOESN'T!!!!! It really, really doesn't happen in every match.

Pipo2525
12-01-2008, 16:42
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by GillsMan:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by jazzysheff:
And as i have stated earlier this is one game in 40 odd league games. In FM it happens every single match !!! http://community.sigames.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_mad.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
NO IT DOESN'T!!!!! It really, really doesn't happen in every match. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Does in my game!

andyinuk
12-01-2008, 16:51
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by jazzysheff:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Miles Jacobson:
To answer a couple of points on the front page, the reason we don't answer posts like this is firstly because it's a duplicate of something mentioned often, and secondly because we have answered on others on the same subject.

As for the person who mentioned last weeks FA Cup stats, I haven't seen those, so can't comment on them. However, and somewhat ironically, the game that I watched live on TV last week was the Real Madrid v Real Zaragoza game, a game where Zaragoza had 20 odd shots, and didn't score, whereas Madrid had only a few shots, and scored 2. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>


And as i have stated earlier this is one game in 40 odd league games. In FM it happens every single match !!! http://community.sigames.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_mad.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

and it happen hell a lot more than one game in 40 in real life

andygregory
12-01-2008, 17:24
I think oldsoldier did a good job of explaining what is happening here..
http://community.sigames.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/5211026...492012273#2492012273 (http://community.sigames.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/521102691/m/5192028073?r=2492012273#2492012273)

Paul C has already acknowledged the problem and agreed with some of the findings about the way the match engine handles shots and goals etc. Looks like there will be something to fix this problem in the next patch.

The reason not everyone is coming across the problem is because it only seems to happen if you don't play with any width.

So for those who were saying it has something to do with tactics, are half right. However having to play a certain way every game to avoid a 'bug' isn't quite what we'd expect from a game of this caliber.

Andy

andygregory
12-01-2008, 17:29
oh and I agree that there are far too many posts on this subject. In a way it's good as it highlights the problem. But bad, because it is drowning out the other bugs people are finding eg. lower league club managers being berated by the board and fans for not beating a premier league side in a cup match etc.

McDoul
12-01-2008, 17:35
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by jazzysheff:
And as i have stated earlier this is one game in 40 odd league games. In FM it happens every single match !!! http://community.sigames.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_mad.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

It most definitely does not, and I'm 3 seasons in on several games with Liverpool, Carrarese, Belchatow, and AIK. It hurts when it does, but honestly, I'm winning that many games it's not really an issue.

Ackter
12-01-2008, 18:06
1. Yes there's a problem with this
2. If it's happening regularly, try something different
3. When you find that something different, stick with it
4. Stop beating the dead horse.

milamber
12-01-2008, 18:17
There are many variables to take into consideration:

Pre-game tactics
In-match tactics
Team Talks
Player Stats (Physical and Mental)
Player Relationships
Quality of Staff
Club Conditions
Media
Transfers
Quality of Manager

Just recently I finished 6th in my first season with Atletico Madrid. It was really tough, but we rarely got thrashed even by the big teams. However, Ageuro scored most the goals.

1st game of the 2nd season attempting to finish in the top 4, Villareal thrashed us 4-0 and we were playing like amateurs. The 2nd game we escaped with a draw against a poor team.

Only a tactic I found in the 2nd season changed things around. I swear I would have sacked if I'd continued the same way. We ended up finishing 3rd, though I had to sell Aguero because he didn't fit the new system.

You can't play well all the time! Back in 2000 or whenever it was IRL, Manchester United ran away with the league, and then got complacent and were terrible for several seasons. It happens!

sav112
12-01-2008, 18:41
In my view I do believe the end results are acceptable (I’ve been playing on 08 for three season in a clan game) however it is the manner that the end result is achieved that has me most puzzled I think,

All real stats! Taking say the Champoins league games this season say for the group stages for actual mmatches we see a pattern like this

Chelsea had 18 shots wide to Rosenborg 4, but looking closer the actual shots on goal were 5 for Chelsea & 3 for Rosen which actual works for this 1-1


Chelsea Rosenborg
63'-1
1-1

24'-1

Chelsea Statistics Rosenborg
1 Goals scored 1
1 Yellow card 2
0 Red card 0
5 Shots on goal 3
18 Shots wide 4
19 Fouls committed 19
8 Corners 2
3 Offsides 1
37' 9'' Ball. Poss. (time) 21' 52''
62% Ball. Poss. (%) 38%
[\code]


Again the score with this Milan game relates to 10 shots on goal with 4 being scored, Shak had even more shots on goal but only scored once

Milan Shakhtar
69'-1
62'-1
14'-1
6'-1
4-1

51'-1

Milan Statistics Shakhtar
4 Goals scored 1
2 Yellow card 3
0 Red card 0
10 Shots on goal 11
5 Shots wide 8
10 Fouls committed 13
7 Corners 9
4 Offsides 2
24' 52'' Ball. Poss. (time) 32' 55''
43% Ball. Poss. (%) 57%


looking at stat after stat you seem to relise that shots on target often than not are low in number.
taking the whole group matches into account in group B for all the matches played for the four teams it looks like this and remeber thats six matches......



Group B
Club
shots wide 48 32 41 32
shots on goal 42 24 30 20
fouls committed 88 95 97 78
corners 30 26 39 17
offside 21 11 13 9
ball. poss. time 37 Min. 28 Min. 30 Min. 35 Min.
ball. poss. perc 53% 47% 48% 52%
goals scored 9 6 5 2
goals conceded 2 10 4 6
yellow cards 3 8 13 8
red cards 0 0 0 1




Here are some IRL stats for Spain this season

Played matches 182
Remaining matches 198
% played 47 %
Home wins 47 %
Draws 25 %
Away wins 28 %
Goals 468
Goals p. match 2.57
Goals p. match (H) 1.48
Goals p. match (A) 1.09
Over 2.5 goals 46 %
Under 2.5 goals 54 %

Most frequent scores Score Matches Percentages
1 - 1 23 12.6 %
2 - 0 19 10.4 %
0 - 0 16 8.79 %
2 - 1 14 7.69 %
0 - 1 14 7.69 %
1 - 0 14 7.69 %
0 - 2 12 6.59 %
3 - 0 12 6.59 %
1 - 2 9 4.94 %
3 - 1 9 4.94 %
0 - 3 7 3.84 %
2 - 2 6 3.29 %
4 - 1 6 3.29 %
4 - 3 4 2.19 %
4 - 0 3 1.64 %
Other 2 1.09 %
1 - 4 2 1.09 %
2 - 3 2 1.09 %
4 - 2 2 1.09 %
3 - 2 2 1.09 %
3 - 4 1 0.54 %
2 - 4 1 0.54 %
3 - 3 1 0.54 %
1 - 3 1 0.54 %
4 - 4 0 0 %
0 - 4 0 0 %

League Progress Total %
Matches played
182 47.9 %
Matches remaining
198 52.1 %



Outcomes Total %
Home team wins
85 46.7 %
Draws
46 25.3 %
Away team wins
51 28 %



Goals Total Per match
Goals scored
468 2.57
First-half goals
206 1.13
Second-half goals
262 1.44
Home goals
269 1.48
Away goals
199 1.09

Cards Total Per match
All Cards
975 5.4
Yellow cards
901 4.95
Double-yellow cards
40 0.22
Red cards
34 0.19

Giving the opinion that yes high shots on goal does not guarantee success or that low shots on goal does not necessarily mean you’ll loose in real life football – we can all point to games we have seen that the result has astounded us – that’s the joy of it but it is the frequency that in the game as Human Manager and considering some of the time they are playing world class teams very high shots on goal or even wide are produced. And I have to say playing in spain nearly every second match and I’m being kind here produces very high shots on goal and even shots wide with little reward.

sav112
12-01-2008, 18:46
for those ststos out there....

http://www.mastercard.com/football/ucl/statistics/statistics_clubs.html#A

http://www.soccerstats.com/2kmatch.asp?league=spain&matchid=180


http://stats.football365.com/dom/ESP/PL/results.html http://community.sigames.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

Unicorns are real
12-01-2008, 22:14
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">I just don't see it as the huge problem as everyone else does - but then part of that is that I'm still playing FM 2007 and not FM 2008, so can't really comment on that match engine. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

This isn't intended to be inflammatory in the slightest, but I simply must comment on this reply from you, Gav. How on earth are you going to come on here and argue about something you know little or nothing about? This ignorant blindness is exactly what we don't need on these forums. Are there too many complaints? Yes. Are they founded on hearsay or is there some kind of mass hysteria infecting these here parts? NO!

SI have been desperately trying to release a patch to fix the patch of the patch due to there being a rather significant problem with the match engine if you haven't heard or noticed. The fact that a patch is due to be released in February months after the original release clearly constitutes a problem, I'm sure you will agree. Do I think SI are deceiving us? Not directly no, and not in the same context of the original post, but there IS a problem — it's been highlighted in numerous posts in this forum, and as it happens, the findings/complaints, whatever you want to call them, are well founded and fit in well with my game world and game experience.

I've gone off topic slightly and I apologise, but please don't come on here and involve yourself in a debate you know nothing about, mate. Not only do you make a mockery of your own thoughts and opinions, but you too make a mockery of the folks on here that have played the game, experienced issues, and feel very let down by this version thus far. The least you can do is inquire yourself before posting on the matter — it's common decency, mate, that's all.

HonkyDick
12-01-2008, 22:52
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by gavnoble:
How about because every single year you get the same posts from people kmoaning about something that I just don't see as being an issue. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
You wouldn't see it as an issue if you don't have the game.
I'm not a 'the games against me' person because I am pretty successful at the game anyway, it is not a hard game at all.
People are rightly concerned with some of the issues though.
This is not about 'it's your tactics' or 'your strikers obviously are crap' either. I know my tactics and player attributes well enough to win a lot more than I lose but there are some dodgy stats that come about because of the 1 on 1s issue. It's not our tactics or players fault that SI toned down the conversion rate of 1 on 1s because there were far too many of them.

HonkyDick
12-01-2008, 22:53
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by gavnoble:
Obviously I must be, after all I keep looking at the same stupid comments about problems that do not exist. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
http://community.sigames.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif How would you know if you don't have the game?

HonkyDick
12-01-2008, 22:57
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Kris:
Car Analogys http://community.sigames.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

Oh and gavnoble knows what he is talking about. He's broken down the match engine more times then I can count. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
http://community.sigames.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_confused.gif But he hasn't got the game, this match engine is different to last years.

ajcardall
12-01-2008, 23:03
I don't think you have to own the game to realise there is/is not a problem, depending on your point of view.

Gavnoble may have read these (countless) threads about too many shots etc etc..., seen all the statistics provided within, and decided for himself, without playing the game, that there isn't an issue.

I'm not involved in Luton Town FC, but I know they have a problem.

HonkyDick
12-01-2008, 23:08
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by ajcardall:
I don't think you have to own the game to realise there is/is not a problem, depending on your point of view.

Gavnoble may have read these (countless) threads about too many shots etc etc..., seen all the statistics provided within, and decided for himself, without playing the game, that there isn't an issue. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
LOL, now if we don't own the game we have a more informed and respected opinion on it. http://community.sigames.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_confused.gif

DS
13-01-2008, 01:35
Some people seem to not understand the thread
I started this to point out the different ratings Human GK get compared to AI GK but people seem to think its about the shots to goal bug. That is related to that but there are already many threads about the shots to goal bug. I just wanted to discuss this problem with the ratings and I think you should all go look at your games and see that this does happen. It happens to me in every game. My keeper plays crap and gets good ratings, whereas the opposition goalkeepers are always "putting on a clinic" and get ratings of 8 at best, most the times its just a 7 or even a 6 for a good performance.

Please stop flaming and abusing each other because then SI will not pay attention to this thread.

Jimbokav1971
13-01-2008, 01:53
DS. I appreciate what you are saying about the match ratings, but in my experience, this is an issue with that match ratings in general, (and GK match rating to be specific), but not AI managed GK match ratings when compared to human managed GK match rating).

Part of the reason for this is that because you/we/me seem almost impossible to close down effectively in the opposition third of the pitch, the opposition back 3/4/5 and GK are able to pass the ball between them unchallanged for large parts of the game thatb are not considered "key highlights". As a result of this, an AI managed GK may have a number of successful passes in his stats and to my mind it is this which generates the unreastic high match rating.

I would really say that rather than the problem being AI vs Human GK match ratings, the real problem is that GK's use the same formulae to calculate match ratings that is used for outfield players. In my view, successful pass % should have far less importance when it comes to GK's and there should be a number of GK specific stats introduced.

Shots.
Shots saved.
Shots (key) saved.

I know that any shot saved will be key but saves such as penalty saves, double saves and some others should be rated higher than a normal save where the ball is almost trickling through to the GK.

Crosses.
Crosses claimed.
Crosses (key) claimed.

Key crosses coul be any croos that is claimed while the GK is under pressure.

At the moment we have the following.

Pass
Completed
Key

Tackles
Won
Key

The tackles stats could be swapped with the shots saved stats as mentioned above.

Headers
Won
Key

The headers stats could be swapped with the crossing stats as mentioned above

Int
Run
Off

Foul
Fouled
Assist
Shot
Shot on target

Until GK's are rated using a formulae specific to their role, then their match ratings will never be accurate.

This REALLY is not a human/AI issue though.

Sorry.

nreo
13-01-2008, 02:07
I've been reading posts in the background since my yellow card but i've decided to post again.

I think the main problem is how people defend the match engine through real life statistics. at the end of the day you're taking the AVERAGE shot/goal ratio of entire leagues through a season or a few matches and claiming that every fm08 match is realistic because they comply with those statistics.

they are stats - and when players like ourselves play matches week in week out with the same supposed 'realistic' shot/goal ratio it just isnt right. its ludicrous to claim that ac milan or man city can have 45+shots a week and still lose- and then claim that because madrid only had 2 shots against zaragoza that doncaster vs tranmere should be exactly the same. sure occasionally this happens but the point is that every match irl isn't the same, and a lot of us are experiencing this problem EVERY match despite the constant tweaking of tactics and rotation of players. if you claim we're just poor managers as an argument then you've made the game unplayable as this is a recurring problem present in countless posts.i did read somewhere that there will be match engine fixes so i'm hoping this will be looked over. - like i said, i don't mind the odd game where i miss everything and they score 2 - its frustrating yes, but not the exact same game played 56 matches in one season. the beta patch had a very decent engine and despite languishing in the bottom half of the table with derby the matches felt real

and on the point of the game's success in the market, yes, i'm sure this game has sold well, but there are plenty of new customers out there who are buying the game and don't know about the forum so they can't stress their opinions. they're probably clueless and are playing with the 8.0.0 patch... i'd be interested to see overall playing time per customer old and new.

i think one way SI can deal with the problem ( if they see US complaining as a problem) is stickying a post clarifying that its US which needs to sort out our own tactics to comply with real life averages, and that it isn't the match engine which is flawed. with that, at least state whether or not this will be fixed.... and if it won't be fixed, it will have solved this issue once and for all, instead of SI being so vague and taking real madrid vs zaragoza or some hardcore posters defending them through researching real life stats- just because they've found their way around a flawed engine in my opinion.

hoping we can hear some constructive input.

chris

eXistenZ
13-01-2008, 02:58
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by DS:
Some people seem to not understand the thread
I started this to point out the different ratings Human GK get compared to AI GK but people seem to think its about the shots to goal bug. That is related to that but there are already many threads about the shots to goal bug. I just wanted to discuss this problem with the ratings and I think you should all go look at your games and see that this does happen. It happens to me in every game. My keeper plays crap and gets good ratings, whereas the opposition goalkeepers are always "putting on a clinic" and get ratings of 8 at best, most the times its just a 7 or even a 6 for a good performance.

Please stop flaming and abusing each other because then SI will not pay attention to this thread. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

All those bugs are related to each other. Because theri is a superGK, you need 15 shots on target to score, and it doesn't help if they keep shooting from distance even when you say they may not do that.

gavnoble
13-01-2008, 03:23
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by HonkyDick:
LOL, now if we don't own the game we have a more informed and respected opinion on it. http://community.sigames.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_confused.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Just because I don't own it doesn't mean I haven't played it. I spent a long time playing the demo and have played the full and patched release at a friends house to see if the patch makes any difference to my enjoyment levels.

In the time I have played it at his house I have personally not experienced a huge problem in terms of the shots to goal issue being discussed/whinged about* (delete as applicable) in this thread.

To me, despite the changes to the match engine for this release, it still falls into the same category as previous games whereby there are games where you will dominate and lose but there are plenty of times where you get dominated and still win. If it was happening every single game where I was dominating yet still losing then I would say there was a problem but as it's not happening every game then to me - and I say to me - it's not something that overly concerns me.

Obviously, tactics, team and player instructions, quality of player and overall team strength, will all play a part in how many shots you have on target and how many goals you will concede and as FM is just a simulation using an artificially created match engine then it will not be a perfect representation of real life football, but you can look at the stats of any real life game any weekend and on the whole they will generally compare very favourably to the amounts of shots per game, shots on target and goals within the game. Obviously not exactly as simulations cannot ever truly replicate a real life activity, but FM is pretty darn close.

The one factor to perhaps include in FM is the 'supertactics' that people tend to use that do exploit flaws in the match engine, but as such they cannot be used as the standard for saying there is something wrong with the game when a fair proportion of FM players don't use supertactics - including the AI managers!

robmontie1965
13-01-2008, 04:28
I have enjoyed reading everyones quotes and opinions, arnt forums great.

To all I read a post not sure which topic yesterday where some one used the deitor to swap all chelsea players for millwalls players. I think this will prove beyond doubt it is the match engine and it is totally unrealistic. Chelsea stayed up and got to the champions league semi final, and Millwall struggled in division 1. I think that was the outcome. He never changed the teams leagues Chelsea were still in premiership. I am sure everyone will agree if any team had Chelseas players in division 1 they should romp home unbeaten. This proves beyond any shadow of a doubt the engine is unreal. Wouldnt it be nice as everyone as requested for S.I to make a statement and an apology to everyone. I for one do enjoy FM 2008 though as the challenge is far better and if you use tactical knowledge and learn from your defeats, you can reverse the result in 2nd game against the team tht beat you.


<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by DS:
Match Overview (http://img267.imageshack.us/img267/8271/bahamasvcanadaoverviewff9.png)
Match Stats (http://img530.imageshack.us/img530/7868/bahamasvcanadastatsmatcrs5.png)
Player Ratings (http://img530.imageshack.us/img530/3686/bahamasvcanadastatsplayln8.png) My Team's Stats (http://img267.imageshack.us/img267/2937/bahamasvcanadastatsawayxr0.png)

Please look at those screenshots first. I am managing Canada.

I am not even going to bother with the obvious bug or cheating or whatever you want to call it where Bahamas had 3 shots on goal and scored 3 while I had 19 and scored 4. I will not complain about the fact that I was loosing 3-0 to a team who I am much better then.

But what I have a problem with is the fact that my goalkeeper let in 3 goals and made no saves and gets a match rating of 7. That performance deserves a 2 or a 3 but how does he get a 7? The opposition goalkeeper saved 15 shots and let in 4 and gets a 6. Now that performance should have a 7 or something but maybe a 6 is also fair? But compare the opposition goalkeepers performance to my goalkeepers performance and he should have a 10. This isnt the first time I have seen this. I have seen this many times. Almost always. The human controlled team's goalkeeper always gets higher ratings to make it look like he is playing better. Why would Si do that? Because the AI keepers are always performing better and this is used to disguise that fact. Si really need to fix this blatant attempt to deceive us. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Jopo12
13-01-2008, 05:41
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by nreo:
and on the point of the game's success in the market, yes, i'm sure this game has sold well, but there are plenty of new customers out there who are buying the game and don't know about the forum so they can't stress their opinions. they're probably clueless and are playing with the 8.0.0 patch... i'd be interested to see overall playing time per customer old and new.

i think one way SI can deal with the problem ( if they see US complaining as a problem) is stickying a post clarifying that its US which needs to sort out our own tactics to comply with real life averages, and that it isn't the match engine which is flawed. with that, at least state whether or not this will be fixed.... and if it won't be fixed, it will have solved this issue once and for all, instead of SI being so vague and taking real madrid vs zaragoza or some hardcore posters defending them through researching real life stats- just because they've found their way around a flawed engine in my opinion.
</div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I think it's pretty daft to drag the sales figures here to prove the game's excellence. How many you think are actually refusing to buy the game because they have heard it is flawed? I'd say it goes like everybody with a little interest buys the game (or downloads it) and THEN they notice it's not that good because they play it. And some may disagree with my view but at the same time games like Sims are on the same lists as Football Manager. I am not that fond of it but I am not everyone. How much music is sold that you think is bad and is only made to milk the money from the people? Does it tell anything about goodness if masses buy it, and many without that much idea of it actually?

I've yet to see a review about FM 2008 which mentions any of the bugs it has. Which is ridiculous because there certainly are things to be fixed as SI themselves have admitted. What does it tell, are dozens of people complaining here wrong or are the game critics simply blind and too busy or ignorant to focus that much to the game? I think it's the latter, because most people don't care that much. And good for them if they don't spot things which would annoy them but it certainly isn't a good way to tell whether there actually are any bugs and flaws.

Just a little question to the end: What is the idea of "real life stats" applied on a computer game? I do know that you got to take the point from somewhere but who actually wants FM to be reality? Why it can't be that footballish enough that people would understand it to acceptable level and get enjoyment from it? I don't necessarily see that a football management game has to follow what happens in real life to be fun. After all it's a game and we should decide what happens in it. Yet it all goes wrong when our games are nerfed to represent reality without caring that much what we are actually doing. I really don't see what was the problem with CM 01/02, and with some versions missed between I didn't see that much faults in FM 2006 either. More reality, more bugs and more hair tearing and less fun. But I guess it's then some other game if I want to have fun unrealistic way. With FM comes "reality" and on the way to it come stupid bugs and illogicalities. Maybe that's part of the reality too because life isn't that always that nice. Computer games should be for what I've comprehended.

Jimbokav1971
13-01-2008, 06:01
robmontie. You should read the whole of that thread and not just the opening post.

andyinuk
13-01-2008, 06:17
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by robmontie1965:
I have enjoyed reading everyones quotes and opinions, arnt forums great.

To all I read a post not sure which topic yesterday where some one used the deitor to swap all chelsea players for millwalls players. I think this will prove beyond doubt it is the match engine and it is totally unrealistic. Chelsea stayed up and got to the champions league semi final, and Millwall struggled in division 1. I think that was the outcome. He never changed the teams leagues Chelsea were still in premiership. I am sure everyone will agree if any team had Chelseas players in division 1 they should romp home unbeaten. This proves beyond any shadow of a doubt the engine is unreal. Wouldnt it be nice as everyone as requested for S.I to make a statement and an apology to everyone. I for one do enjoy FM 2008 though as the challenge is far better and if you use tactical knowledge and learn from your defeats, you can reverse the result in 2nd game against the team tht beat you.


<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by DS:
Match Overview (http://img267.imageshack.us/img267/8271/bahamasvcanadaoverviewff9.png)
Match Stats (http://img530.imageshack.us/img530/7868/bahamasvcanadastatsmatcrs5.png)
Player Ratings (http://img530.imageshack.us/img530/3686/bahamasvcanadastatsplayln8.png) My Team's Stats (http://img267.imageshack.us/img267/2937/bahamasvcanadastatsawayxr0.png)

Please look at those screenshots first. I am managing Canada.

I am not even going to bother with the obvious bug or cheating or whatever you want to call it where Bahamas had 3 shots on goal and scored 3 while I had 19 and scored 4. I will not complain about the fact that I was loosing 3-0 to a team who I am much better then.

But what I have a problem with is the fact that my goalkeeper let in 3 goals and made no saves and gets a match rating of 7. That performance deserves a 2 or a 3 but how does he get a 7? The opposition goalkeeper saved 15 shots and let in 4 and gets a 6. Now that performance should have a 7 or something but maybe a 6 is also fair? But compare the opposition goalkeepers performance to my goalkeepers performance and he should have a 10. This isnt the first time I have seen this. I have seen this many times. Almost always. The human controlled team's goalkeeper always gets higher ratings to make it look like he is playing better. Why would Si do that? Because the AI keepers are always performing better and this is used to disguise that fact. Si really need to fix this blatant attempt to deceive us. </div></BLOCKQUOTE> </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

regarding the thread you were referring to, you might want to go back and read the whole thread , instead of just the opening post.

In future, that might be something you want to do, before you make yourself look like an idiot

Ackter
13-01-2008, 06:30
This thread should have just been closed as soon as it deviated.

It's a shame, as at least DS was trying to start a discussion, but the usual crowd ruined it.

Klimowicz
13-01-2008, 06:31
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by robmontie1965:
I have enjoyed reading everyones quotes and opinions, arnt forums great.

To all I read a post not sure which topic yesterday where some one used the deitor to swap all chelsea players for millwalls players. I think this will prove beyond doubt it is the match engine and it is totally unrealistic. Chelsea stayed up and got to the champions league semi final, and Millwall struggled in division 1. I think that was the outcome. He never changed the teams leagues Chelsea were still in premiership. I am sure everyone will agree if any team had Chelseas players in division 1 they should romp home unbeaten. This proves beyond any shadow of a doubt the engine is unreal. Wouldnt it be nice as everyone as requested for S.I to make a statement and an apology to everyone. I for one do enjoy FM 2008 though as the challenge is far better and if you use tactical knowledge and learn from your defeats, you can reverse the result in 2nd game against the team tht beat you.
</div></BLOCKQUOTE>

that would only shock me if chelseas training facilities were also swapped with millwall. stats go down dependong on facilities and quality of coaches. club reputation is also a factor. milwall players would have improved with chelseas top facilities, not so much chelsea (if at all). how many chelsea players wanted to move to a bigger club, and were unhappy throughout the season? how many were sold? who did millwall buy with chelseas money? i would like to read this topic if you can find it. cba to look myself

in my game liverpool won the league first season by 2 points ahead of me (arsenal), finished 7th second season and were relegated third season. they had 95% of the same players from 07/08, including gerrard, torres and reina. i honestly can't explain how this has happened. i added a manager and took them over 4th season. nearly all of their players were sold, yet i had no money to spend on rebuilding the squad. gerrard, torres and reina were still there, only reina wanted to leave. i managed to get some funds in from selling a few players, but in 4 games i've won 4. comfortably.

what is stranger, liverpool being relegated with these players who won the league, or torres and gerrard not being tempted to go to spain or italy? bearing in mind that liverpools reputation might have dropped, but they are still a big club with top facilities, meaning training is still great?

Jimmyt
13-01-2008, 10:55
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Jimmyt:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Jimmyt:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Jimmyt:
No.

But this happens way too often.

You have to carve out 5 or 10 chances for ewach goasl but whoever you play can score with their first chance time after time.

I don't want to win EVERY game. I want to have a fighting chance against oposition teams. And that means a modicum of reality in the chances/goals ratio on BOTH sides of the equation.

These are my last two games and both of them have the opposition scoring with their first shot (or two with their first two)

Fulham (http://img141.imageshack.us/img141/4507/everychanceve2.jpg)

West Ham (http://img524.imageshack.us/img524/542/everychance2ab7.jpg)

I could go back further for more examples. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

And again.

Shocker. (http://img293.imageshack.us/img293/2741/everychance3zb9.jpg)

Three times in four games that the opposition has scored with their first shot. This time, of course, it was the ubiquitous 25 yard free-kick supergoal that it's tactically impossible to defend against. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

And the final score there....

ta da! (http://img261.imageshack.us/img261/6396/everychance4yl6.jpg) </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

And it continues with the opposition finding the back of the net with their first shot on target.

Again (http://img413.imageshack.us/img413/7383/everychance5xj5.jpg)

And again... (http://img413.imageshack.us/img413/2422/everychance6wc3.jpg)

And again! (http://img413.imageshack.us/img413/315/everychancearsenal2mk3.jpg)

And for added annoyance, this first shot on target was in the fifth minute of four minutes of injury time AND offside.

Sometimes it really feels that the opposition simply don't play to the same rules.

Jimmyt
13-01-2008, 10:58
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">that would only shock me if chelseas training facilities were also swapped with millwall. stats go down dependong on facilities and quality of coaches. club reputation is also a factor. milwall players would have improved with chelseas top facilities, not so much chelsea (if at all). how many chelsea players wanted to move to a bigger club, and were unhappy throughout the season? how many were sold? who did millwall buy with chelseas money? i would like to read this topic if you can find it. cba to look myself </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

So if it was that easy to improve players to that level, why do Chelsea spend £15m on Anelka when they could have picked up a cheapo from Millwall?

Warrenwwr
13-01-2008, 12:10
hey everyone...lets make this thread 16+ pages long to match the other one dealing with this and other issues.

i assume SI is working feverishly at remedying the situation. i know several first time payers of fm08, and even they voice their (similar) complaints to me on occasion..and they don't even know these forums exist.

a patch in February should put these complaints to rest.

Antonin
13-01-2008, 12:39
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by andyinuk:
because it's the same crap every year from the SI-Bashing gang. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

But, to be fair, it's the same way with people who, year after year, go into freakishly complex contortions to explain away and put down every criticism of the game.

I'm just amazed at the rationalizations I see here. When someone is having problems with the game, no matter how much analysis, no matter how many statistics that come up with to prove their points and raise valid questions, certain people will claim "it's not SI's game, it's YOU."

That's wierd.

Ackter
13-01-2008, 12:48
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">no matter how much analysis, no matter how many statistics that come up with to prove their points and raise valid </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Such behaviour on here is very rare. Most are simply rants with nothing to back them up.

When the stats are brought forward, and it's usually somone refuting claims that has to do the leg work, the claims are usually shown to be wrong.

However, when the stats are brought forward by the person posting originally then the threads tend to get involvement from SI - Paul C in particular is often seen getting involved in threads that actually involve stats and proofs.

This thread contains neither.

cafe_latte
13-01-2008, 13:04
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Miles Jacobson:
To answer a couple of points on the front page, the reason we don't answer posts like this is firstly because it's a duplicate of something mentioned often, and secondly because we have answered on others on the same subject.

As for the person who mentioned last weeks FA Cup stats, I haven't seen those, so can't comment on them. However, and somewhat ironically, the game that I watched live on TV last week was the Real Madrid v Real Zaragoza game, a game where Zaragoza had 20 odd shots, and didn't score, whereas Madrid had only a few shots, and scored 2. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

But you have to remember though is that is ONE in a MILLION. I have loads of screenshots that consist of my Milan side having more shots than sense and yet failing to score more than a goal or two, or even worse, drawing nil-nil or losing.

The screenshots I have are between January 2008 up to March 2008. And for such a small period of time, I managed to gather a shed-load of evidence to suggest that the match engine is seriously flawed and is in need of a serious mend. But what I am not suggesting is that we are being 'cheated', which is more or less what this thread is all about.

Is there any place where I can upload these images to, so that SI Games can have proof of my finds??

Ackter
13-01-2008, 13:05
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">This thread contains neither. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I'm not talking about DS here, but the users who came in and turned the thread into yet another rant.

Ackter
13-01-2008, 13:06
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by cafe_latte:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Miles Jacobson:
To answer a couple of points on the front page, the reason we don't answer posts like this is firstly because it's a duplicate of something mentioned often, and secondly because we have answered on others on the same subject.

As for the person who mentioned last weeks FA Cup stats, I haven't seen those, so can't comment on them. However, and somewhat ironically, the game that I watched live on TV last week was the Real Madrid v Real Zaragoza game, a game where Zaragoza had 20 odd shots, and didn't score, whereas Madrid had only a few shots, and scored 2. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

But you have to remember though is that is ONE in a MILLION. I have loads of screenshots that consist of my Milan side having more shots than sense and yet failing to score more than a goal or two, or even worse, drawing nil-nil or losing.

The screenshots I have are between January 2008 up to March 2008. And for such a small period of time, I managed to gather a shed-load of evidence to suggest that the match engine is seriously flawed and is in need of a serious mend. But what I am not suggesting is that we are being 'cheated', which is more or less what this thread is all about.

Is there any place where I can upload these images to, so that SI Games can have proof of my finds?? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Don't think there'd be any point - there's massive thread started by Fred_the_Red somewhere about the issue and PaulC has posted extensively in there. Have a look through that thread first, if you can find it.

Ackter
13-01-2008, 13:06
Here it is:

http://community.sigames.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/521102691/m/4982071363

Is 13 pages long mind.

cafe_latte
13-01-2008, 13:14
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Ackter:
Here it is:

http://community.sigames.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/521102691/m/4982071363

Is 13 pages long mind. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

bleeding hell, its HUGE!

something less annoying
13-01-2008, 13:45
I've generally found that the AI goalkeepers will almost always do better than mine and there will be stupid amounts of 0-0s and 0-1s where I've destroyed the opposition, but I can't subscribe to any of these theories because I cannot for the life of me see why SI would put code into their game to stitch users up. It would make no sense.

Ackter
13-01-2008, 13:53
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by something less annoying:
I've generally found that the AI goalkeepers will almost always do better than mine and there will be stupid amounts of 0-0s and 0-1s where I've destroyed the opposition, but I can't subscribe to any of these theories because I cannot for the life of me see why SI would put code into their game to stitch users up. It would make no sense. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

There's probably code in there that can cause this to happen, but it's certainly not intentional. Its just that humans tend to play in a way that can cause some unrealistic things to happen in the match engine. Certain tactical combinations can really make this problem stand out.

Other tactical combinations and you'll rarely see it.

Klimowicz
13-01-2008, 14:28
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Jimmyt:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">that would only shock me if chelseas training facilities were also swapped with millwall. stats go down dependong on facilities and quality of coaches. club reputation is also a factor. milwall players would have improved with chelseas top facilities, not so much chelsea (if at all). how many chelsea players wanted to move to a bigger club, and were unhappy throughout the season? how many were sold? who did millwall buy with chelseas money? i would like to read this topic if you can find it. cba to look myself </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

So if it was that easy to improve players to that level, why do Chelsea spend £15m on Anelka when they could have picked up a cheapo from Millwall? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

let's all remind ourselves that we are debating an issue in a game. a simulation is not real, but an immitation of a reality. my post was purely from an in-game perspective, your answer was comparative to real life...

training in this game is not a perfect representation of real life, and most of the posts in this forum suggest that the game on the whole isn't either. players don't have stats that they need to improve apart from goals/clean sheets etc, do they? they are taught by real people and have to have the mental capabilities to adapt their skills. you just can't do that in a game. they are rated by humans in the papers out of 10. are they bothered with their average rating? they know that if they don't play well, the whole team may suffer as a result.

and why on earth would chelsea want to buy a millwall player instead of anelka? to save money? do they need a cultured striker who already has a goalscoring reputation to bolster their attack while drogba's away, or do they have the time to train a player with average skills for his age to world class abilities before the end of this season?

but if chelsea did sign a millwall player, he would improve, maybe not to premiership/world class standard, but an improvement none the less. if you're 24+ in FM, you can't learn anything from anyone. 24 irl is not too late to learn anything new.

you are supposed to compare this game with real life, but there are so many football & non football aspects missing that it wouldn't be worth a comparason. treat it as a game ffs.

DS
13-01-2008, 20:49
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Jimbokav1971:
DS. I appreciate what you are saying about the match ratings, but in my experience, this is an issue with that match ratings in general, (and GK match rating to be specific), but not AI managed GK match ratings when compared to human managed GK match rating).

Part of the reason for this is that because you/we/me seem almost impossible to close down effectively in the opposition third of the pitch, the opposition back 3/4/5 and GK are able to pass the ball between them unchallanged for large parts of the game thatb are not considered "key highlights". As a result of this, an AI managed GK may have a number of successful passes in his stats and to my mind it is this which generates the unreastic high match rating.

I would really say that rather than the problem being AI vs Human GK match ratings, the real problem is that GK's use the same formulae to calculate match ratings that is used for outfield players. In my view, successful pass % should have far less importance when it comes to GK's and there should be a number of GK specific stats introduced.

Shots.
Shots saved.
Shots (key) saved.

I know that any shot saved will be key but saves such as penalty saves, double saves and some others should be rated higher than a normal save where the ball is almost trickling through to the GK.

Crosses.
Crosses claimed.
Crosses (key) claimed.

Key crosses coul be any croos that is claimed while the GK is under pressure.

At the moment we have the following.

Pass
Completed
Key

Tackles
Won
Key

The tackles stats could be swapped with the shots saved stats as mentioned above.

Headers
Won
Key

The headers stats could be swapped with the crossing stats as mentioned above

Int
Run
Off

Foul
Fouled
Assist
Shot
Shot on target

Until GK's are rated using a formulae specific to their role, then their match ratings will never be accurate.

This REALLY is not a human/AI issue though.

Sorry. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Jimbo I think you may be onto something but I said the Human GK gets to high ratings compared to AI GK and you were telling me why the AI GK would get high ratings because of the passing they are allowed to do due to my team not closing down.

Also in this thread I read someone said that my GK may have a high rating because he intercepted many crosses but if you look at the screen shot in the 1st post he only got 3 intercepts. Unless there are some things which arent shown on the stats that would lead to my GK getting such a high rating despite letting in 3 goals and not saving any I really dont know whats going on. Also the 3 goals he let in werent that difficult to save. It could be due to the wet weather making it harder to save but the opposition GK had the same conditions and relative to my GK he still had a worse rating despite playing better.

Its not just this one match, it happens every match. Just look over your matches and the stats. Human GK gets high ratings much easier then an AI GK.

TFS
13-01-2008, 21:24
I think a cause for the problem is Researchers giving Keepers too good reflexes/handling and too low concentration. Year 2011 in my save, highest concentration of any keeper is 14, number of keepers with 20/20 handling & reflexes? &gt;25, ridiculous.
However I don't notice it as much of a problem now as I did when I first started playing, tactics makes a huge differance. Look at Liverpool vs ManU a few weeks back, you look at the stats and it appears as though Liverpool dominated with more possesion and many more shots - in reality they were poor and never looked like coming close to winning the encounter.

DS
13-01-2008, 22:50
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by TFS:
I think a cause for the problem is Researchers giving Keepers too good reflexes/handling and too low concentration. Year 2011 in my save, highest concentration of any keeper is 14, number of keepers with 20/20 handling & reflexes? &gt;25, ridiculous.
However I don't notice it as much of a problem now as I did when I first started playing, tactics makes a huge differance. Look at Liverpool vs ManU a few weeks back, you look at the stats and it appears as though Liverpool dominated with more possesion and many more shots - in reality they were poor and never looked like coming close to winning the encounter. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I have no problem with tactics playing a huge part. I know its realistic after seeing how Hiddink changed Australia from playing disgracefully to playing good enough to have won the 2006 World Cup and then once he left we started playing disgracefully again.

However I do have a problem with team talks being so important. It seems results are dependent on team talks alone in FM08. It is ridiculous.

Jimbokav1971
14-01-2008, 02:09
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Its not just this one match, it happens every match. Just look over your matches and the stats. Human GK gets high ratings much easier then an AI GK. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

It's hard for me to check this because my GK has scored loads of goals and a few assists which skew his average ratings considerably.

In addition to that, it appears that he's one of my best players even without his goal-scoring ability and has kept 87 clean sheets in 6 seasons. In a recent game he made 17 saves, (despite conceding loads of goals). I've never seen an AI GK make 17 saves in a match.

Jimbokav1971
14-01-2008, 02:10
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">playing good enough to have won the 2006 World Cup </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Rofl http://community.sigames.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif.

Elohir
14-01-2008, 03:57
The game has done this in its many iterations since the dawn of time. It's not going to change, no matter how much people complain. Live with it or play Eidos CM. (lol)

Jimmyt
14-01-2008, 06:12
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Klimowicz:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Jimmyt:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">that would only shock me if chelseas training facilities were also swapped with millwall. stats go down dependong on facilities and quality of coaches. club reputation is also a factor. milwall players would have improved with chelseas top facilities, not so much chelsea (if at all). how many chelsea players wanted to move to a bigger club, and were unhappy throughout the season? how many were sold? who did millwall buy with chelseas money? i would like to read this topic if you can find it. cba to look myself </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

So if it was that easy to improve players to that level, why do Chelsea spend £15m on Anelka when they could have picked up a cheapo from Millwall? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

let's all remind ourselves that we are debating an issue in a game. a simulation is not real, but an immitation of a reality. my post was purely from an in-game perspective, your answer was comparative to real life...

training in this game is not a perfect representation of real life, and most of the posts in this forum suggest that the game on the whole isn't either. players don't have stats that they need to improve apart from goals/clean sheets etc, do they? they are taught by real people and have to have the mental capabilities to adapt their skills. you just can't do that in a game. they are rated by humans in the papers out of 10. are they bothered with their average rating? they know that if they don't play well, the whole team may suffer as a result.

and why on earth would chelsea want to buy a millwall player instead of anelka? to save money? do they need a cultured striker who already has a goalscoring reputation to bolster their attack while drogba's away, or do they have the time to train a player with average skills for his age to world class abilities before the end of this season?

but if chelsea did sign a millwall player, he would improve, maybe not to premiership/world class standard, but an improvement none the less. if you're 24+ in FM, you can't learn anything from anyone. 24 irl is not too late to learn anything new.

you are supposed to compare this game with real life, but there are so many football & non football aspects missing that it wouldn't be worth a comparason. treat it as a game ffs. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I do treat it as a game, but most of the time when someone complains about anything to do with it, people will cite 'realism' as why it's harder or whatever.

the fact is that there are so many areas that are not realistic (probably becaus eit would be almost impossible to get them to be) that anyone claiming that other areas have 'realism' are probably wrong.

It is a game, but that doesn't mean that a team of Millwall players would be competitive in the Premiership just because they happened to play for Chelsea.

Jimmyt
14-01-2008, 06:18
This is a classic example of the 'goals/shots ratio that really FEELS as if the AI work to different rules.

This game had six goals. There's 35 yard shots, There's offside goals. There's everything.

0-1 (http://img262.imageshack.us/img262/7526/bolton1hl2.jpg)

First goal... No shots! 35 seconds!

1-2 (http://img262.imageshack.us/img262/6367/bolton2so3.jpg)

1-3 (http://img292.imageshack.us/img292/8818/bolton3mh8.jpg)

1-4 (http://img139.imageshack.us/img139/593/bolton4fc0.jpg)

1-5 (http://img139.imageshack.us/img139/8750/bolton5ax9.jpg)

Full Time. (http://img139.imageshack.us/img139/4823/bolton6yx7.jpg)

Klimowicz
14-01-2008, 08:31
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Jimmyt:

It is a game, but that doesn't mean that a team of Millwall players would be competitive in the Premiership just because they happened to play for Chelsea. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

i agree, i just didn't make that clear enough http://community.sigames.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

tbh, if they swapped with newcastle, pompey, or any (established) premiership team, they would have better facilities and coaches. chelsea was an extreme example.

if this was done in the game, you would see a change in stats for millwall players. but when players need that much improvement, it'll take time. chelsea struggling on the other hand would be a suprise.

if you check my post on page 1, my liverpool team is doing fine in the championship so far, even with a massive reduction in playing talent. everyone is on green arrows for improvement.

DS
14-01-2008, 19:26
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Jimbokav1971:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">playing good enough to have won the 2006 World Cup </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Rofl http://community.sigames.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
What are you laughing about? They dominated Italy and world have won but Grosso dived and got a penalty and they won and then they went on to win world cup. Seems to me they played good enough to win it. Anyway I am over that since it has been a year and a half.

tgarve999
14-01-2008, 19:54
well i have to say in recent weeks i have had a ressurgance in my playing time on fm08. Rather than moaning about these supposed 'bugs' i have tried to work my tactics in a more efficient way and used players with the relevent stats to implement these tactics and it has worked.

Im getting sick of people moaning about this, they are obviously the type who expect there to be one tactic to rule them all, when there isnt and this shows the match engine is much more detailed and is affected by far more different events than previous ones.

People need to play this (and do remember it is a game, not an actual life simulator) SI is not god and cant get everything right. Their responces on this topic repeatedly explain to these people with grumbles why this might be happening with referance to in game ****ions but people just moan on and dont listen!

I am startin to only respect opinions on these forums of SI/Sega staff moderators and highly ranked posters because of the constant critisism, destructive argument and bullying of these doom mongers. I am sorry to say this aswell because everyone is entitled to their opinion. People need to be reprimanded for this constant negative angry, bullying attitude because its becoming an unneccessary epidemic.

SI make this great game and dont need people to basically just cowardly bully them. Start to support them or they might loose the strenght to answer to this anger. I hope the message gets through to people and constructive ideas on development and enhancement of FM can be created which will only improve and enhance the game.

Thanks for the cooperation and interaction boys involved in the game- keep it up!

tgarve999
14-01-2008, 19:56
^ the staring there was the word solutions but the 'o' was missing! damn editing!

CowRonaldo
14-01-2008, 20:10
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by DS:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Jimbokav1971:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">playing good enough to have won the 2006 World Cup </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Rofl http://community.sigames.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
What are you laughing about? They dominated Italy and world have won but Grosso dived and got a penalty and they won and then they went on to win world cup. Seems to me they played good enough to win it. Anyway I am over that since it has been a year and a half. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Saying to win it is going a little overboard.

Would they be able to face teams like Germany, Portugal, Brazil, or France in the next round?

And even if Italy did not get a pen, doesn't mean Australia would have won. They'd have to beat Italy on penalty kicks so things might not have changed at all.

DS
14-01-2008, 20:14
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by CowRonaldo:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by DS:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Jimbokav1971:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">playing good enough to have won the 2006 World Cup </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Rofl http://community.sigames.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
What are you laughing about? They dominated Italy and world have won but Grosso dived and got a penalty and they won and then they went on to win world cup. Seems to me they played good enough to win it. Anyway I am over that since it has been a year and a half. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Saying to win it is going a little overboard.

Would they be able to face teams like Germany, Portugal, Brazil, or France in the next round?

And even if Italy did not get a pen, doesn't mean Australia would have won. They'd have to beat Italy on penalty kicks so things might not have changed at all. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
Italy had 10 men and Australia was dominating IIRC (I might be wrong since it has been a while) and we deserved to win. Anyway I didnt say we would win, I said we were playing good enough to win it and I believe thats true. Anyway its off topic from this thread and like I said I am over it, things like that happen in football.