FM IDEA:How about 3 width sliders instead of 1!?

I was playing Fm 2009 today and thinking how much better tactically this game would be if there were seperate width slider's for defence, midfield and attack.

Think about it if you could play your defense wider and your midfield more narrow. My theroy is that your full backs would stay at the byline and wingers like Ronaldo and messi could get much more involved in the build up and use there stats to the full, this would work really well for players that want to play more like teams like Arsenal where their right and left sided midfielders do alot more then just cross the ball, something like a narrow midfield would improve that dramatically while with a wider defense your fullback will provide the width.

i believe Having a width slider for the attack would definitley improve how 4-3-3 formations are set up and lot of other formations. Imagine being able to set your strikers wider to make more openings for your midfield or more narrow, so your strikers are playing closer together and causing havoc for the team defending, could work really well for teams set up with a target man.

Putting this all in to context something like this could expand the variety and individuality of tactics because there can be many more variations.

What do you think??

Almost a good idea.

Instead, width should be decided by the position of the player on the tactics overlay (which should offer more choices)

(death to sliders! )

I think it would make an already confusing slider system even omre complicated! But I also think it has a use for the experienced user or the ones who awant yet more tactical depth!

Not for me though!

I was playing Fm 2009 today and thinking how much better tactically this game would be if there were seperate width slider's for defence, midfield and attack.

Think about it if you could play your defense wider and your midfield more narrow. My theroy is that your full backs would stay at the byline and wingers like Ronaldo and messi could get much more involved in the build up and use there stats to the full, this would work really well for players that want to play more like teams like Arsenal where their right and left sided midfielders do alot more then just cross the ball, something like a narrow midfield would improve that dramatically while with a wider defense your fullback will provide the width.

i believe Having a width slider for the attack would definitley improve how 4-3-3 formations are set up and lot of other formations. Imagine being able to set your strikers wider to make more openings for your midfield or more narrow, so your strikers are playing closer together and causing havoc for the team defending, could work really well for teams set up with a target man.

Putting this all in to context something like this could expand the variety and individuality of tactics because there can be many more variations.

What do you think??

It's just what I'm hoping for too. I like my wingers to cut in when attacking and basically become 2 extra forwards (F L/C, F R/C) and I can achieve that just fine with a width setting of Normal (the exact middle) or less, along with some individual instructions. Trouble is, I also want my full backs to hug the line, and my 2 CM's to spread a bit more.

Having said that, even on the exact middle of Width, my full-backs are still overlapping pretty decently and quite close to the line. Which has surprised me, it's almost as if SI had taken this into account already and the width slider focuses more on the wingers than anyone else. Who knows?

But I still think that having a separate slider for each would maximise the potential of the shape you want your team to have.

Doesn't even have to be sliders with lots of clicks. In individual instructions for Full-Back there could be a small slider with 3 clicks = Hug Line, Mixed, Cut Inside.

Centre-Backs = Move Into Channels, Mixed, Stay Central

Midfielders = Move Into Channels, Mixed, Stay Central

Wingers = Hug Line, Mixed, Cut Inside

Strikers = Move Into Channels, Mixed, Stay Central

The options you select would already produce the overall team shape desired, without any need for the present main width slider. This method would also allow for you to tell your right winger to hug the line, and your left winger to cut inside. At present this is very hard to achieve, if not impossible. I have seen some teams employing this tactical instruction sometimes so why not provide for its simulation in FM? *

Stuff like Moves Into Channels and Cuts Inside should not be PPM's in my opinion. They are managerial wishes. Some players are better at it than others sure (players will play to their strengths), but it should still be in the manager's hands to decide.

Excellent post Luke.

* E.G. Walcott staying wide on right but Nasri cutting inside from the left.

Agreed. I've been wanting this for ages as well to use against those awkward teams that change formation all the time or have the unusual striker pairings etc. At the moment though I'm getting my wingers into the mix more when necessary by playing narrower and focusing passing down both flanks. Creates more options in the centre and helps compensate for the decrease in natural width. To be fair I'm just messing about as Arsenal at the minute so the success may purely be because of player quality.

It's just what I'm hoping for too. I like my wingers to cut in when attacking and basically become 2 extra forwards (F L/C, F R/C) and I can achieve that just fine with a width setting of Normal (the exact middle) or less, along with some individual instructions. Trouble is, I also want my full backs to hug the line, and my 2 CM's to spread a bit more.

Having said that, even on the exact middle of Width, my full-backs are still overlapping pretty decently and quite close to the line. Which has surprised me, it's almost as if SI had taken this into account already and the width slider focuses more on the wingers than anyone else. Who knows?

But I still think that having a separate slider for each would maximise the potential of the shape you want your team to have.

Doesn't even have to be sliders with lots of clicks. In individual instructions for Full-Back there could be a small slider with 3 clicks = Hug Line, Mixed, Cut Inside.

Centre-Backs = Move Into Channels, Mixed, Stay Central

Midfielders = Move Into Channels, Mixed, Stay Central

Wingers = Hug Line, Mixed, Cut Inside

Strikers = Move Into Channels, Mixed, Stay Central

The options you select would already produce the overall team shape desired, without any need for the present main width slider. This method would also allow for you to tell your right winger to hug the line, and your left winger to cut inside. At present this is very hard to achieve, if not impossible. I have seen some teams employing this tactical instruction sometimes so why not provide for its simulation in FM? *

Stuff like Moves Into Channels and Cuts Inside should not be PPM's in my opinion. They are managerial wishes. Some players are better at it than others sure (players will play to their strengths), but it should still be in the manager's hands to decide.

Excellent post Luke.

* E.G. Walcott staying wide on right but Nasri cutting inside from the left.

I like this idea as well, i definitley think something needs to be done beacause the use we get out of wide players in the game at the moment is just not enough.

if you look at the top 2 players in the world at the moment (Ronaldo, Messi) your looking at a extremley high transfer fees in the Fm2009 just to get them, but i believe with the tactical limitations on them there is a very small chance of them playing to there best.

How about instead of giving two extra width sliders, they just put sarrows back in?

Far simpler.

We've got creative freedom, which often results in a winger choosing to come inside (found this out accidentally).

If you set the width to normal or narrow but still have the full backs on an attacking mentality and fr often, then they'll still get up the line.

Sorry, rushing.

How about instead of giving two extra width sliders, they just put sarrows back in?

Far simpler.

i thought the problem with that though was that your players where ending up at the end of the arrow as soon as your team gets possesion which left your team with less options alot of the time

No the problem with the sarrows is that the match engine got broken by them. So instead of working out how to code a better engine they just took them out.

yeah but with the sarrows did you see that as THE solution, i do know that alot of people want them back. Personally i found it more unrealistic with them there because there no freedom in a off the ball sense, he would just run to the end of where the sarrow was put and pretty much stay there till your team lost possession

We don't need more sliders. We need less.

We don't need more sliders. We need less.

I agree that we need less sliders, but we also need more tactical options. Whoever comes up with an idea of how to combine these two seemingly contradictory needs, please let us all know.

Actually, extensive width options is the major tactical element missing from this match engine, imo.

Wibble/Wobble anyone?

I think it's a good idea now the arrows have gone. Hopefully SI will bear it in mind for next year.

Well, again, its simple, you can eliminate the width and mentality sliders by allowing the graphical display screen to cater for more positions.

Width can be determined by placing the position icon further to or away from the by lines, while mentality can be determined by placing the icons further to or away from your own goal.

That would kill a good few sliders. We already have arrows for forward runs, so those sliders are redundant now.

Bring back wibble/wobble and you would eliminate the need for a lot of the individual player instructions

I think the idea of being able to position the width of your defence and midfield differently is a good one. And to fit in with the current scheme a new slider would be the easiest thing to implement. But in the long term I'd much prefer the Width to be decided by where you put your players on the pitch. With more exacting location on the tactics position picture, you could quite easily create the same effect as 3 sliders, by positioning your players across the pitch differently. A graphical representation would be much easier to set your players exactly where you want them

i like it.

Great idea mate.Hope SI take a look at this

Definitely a great idea For anyone that has played FIFA 08 or 09, I think you would agree that being able to edit the player positions in FM in a manner similar to the "Formation Edit" screen/mode in FIFA would be a welcome addition, and would not only serve to eliminate the mentality slider, but would also allow for more exact and varied placement of players, and more customizable (not sure if that's even a word, but hey, it's English, so I figure I can make stuff up if it serves my purpose) tactics. Any thoughts?

not sure about this one. I think a football pitch where you place an icon to indicate where you want a player to line up would be the way forward.

they used to have this in the old cm series.

I think this highlights one of the key problems SI needs to overcome - we don't have enough flexibility tactically, but we have too many options/too complicated a set up. There does need to be a way of telling players to stay wide or stay narrow/cut in individually at some point, and I think probably the best way to do that is more flexibility when placing your players as some have already stated. It still doesn't completely solve all the issues involved in this though.

not sure about this one. I think a football pitch where you place an icon to indicate where you want a player to line up would be the way forward.

they used to have this in the old cm series.

i cant understand why they dont have this anyway. all the Champ manager games have this feature

i do agree though that this will be a far less imposing option

Well, again, its simple, you can eliminate the width and mentality sliders by allowing the graphical display screen to cater for more positions.

Width can be determined by placing the position icon further to or away from the by lines, while mentality can be determined by placing the icons further to or away from your own goal.

That would kill a good few sliders. We already have arrows for forward runs, so those sliders are redundant now.

Bring back wibble/wobble and you would eliminate the need for a lot of the individual player instructions

Wakers and Am4387,

True! But we do not really need Wibble/Wobble, we need just one screen with more available positions. That's because SI (and me) seem to think that it's unrealistic to have different positions when attacking and defending. Right?

Actually, you guys are so right on the best solution of this problem, that makes one wonder: why hasn't this happened already? The answer is kind of obvious, the AI is still not ready to counter sophisticated width tactics! Hopefully this is going to be the main focus of FM2010 (along with improving the 3D).

I think it would make an already confusing slider system even omre complicated! But I also think it has a use for the experienced user or the ones who awant yet more tactical depth!

Not for me though!

I agree. For me personally the tactical interface needs simplifying, not more details. I accept that a lot of users enjoy the great flexibility that it allows, but for me - call me a casual gamer, if you wish - I'd like to see all the sliders be like the Tackling-slider. There are three options for tackling, Wouldn't it be possible to have 5 different settings for the other sliders? I'd be happy to choose from Ultra Def., Defensive, Normal, Attacking, Gung Ho with regards to mentality.

I guess I might just be sick of having to count and do math while playing. Counting the clicks, adding and subtracting to find the optimal closing down settings. Sheesh! Dumb it down, me be simple.

I'd just like the option to have more flexibility in the positioning of my players father than the very rigid placements in the tactics screen. We can't even use the inside arrow anymore, it's just up or down.

or how about having 11 width sliders, one for each player, oh no wait, thats included already

or how about having 11 width sliders, one for each player, oh no wait, thats included already

uhm what? no it isn't.

Also the creativity freedom should be divided into atleast two...

In the real world, you often take more chances in the top third of the pitch, than you do in your own area...

I like this idea as well, i definitley think something needs to be done beacause the use we get out of wide players in the game at the moment is just not enough.

if you look at the top 2 players in the world at the moment (Ronaldo, Messi) your looking at a extremley high transfer fees in the Fm2009 just to get them, but i believe with the tactical limitations on them there is a very small chance of them playing to there best.

agree about that.

i think having leteral movement slider is better idea becouse you can set every individual to what you want compared to having different width settings for defence/midfield/attack. both ideas are good but i would also consider what would be easier for AI to use, before implementing it in. having a tool which cannot be used by both AI and humans, leads to ME exploits.

not sure about this one. I think a football pitch where you place an icon to indicate where you want a player to line up would be the way forward.

they used to have this in the old cm series.

how could that be used by AI? that's exactly why they took awey wibble wooble, if i'm not mistaking...

plus it would be a static tool just like arrows...

Also the creativity freedom should be divided into atleast two...

In the real world, you often take more chances in the top third of the pitch, than you do in your own area...

that's true but how would AI react to that? this stuff needs to be part of ME imo.

Why do you even need sliders for width? Why can't you just have a drop down menu in individual player instructions which allows you to choose "cut inside", "hug sideline", "hold position" etc for each player? Would be easier than trying to find that magic combination and much more realistic.

Why do you even need sliders for width? Why can't you just have a drop down menu in individual player instructions which allows you to choose "cut inside", "hug sideline", "hold position" etc for each player? Would be easier than trying to find that magic combination and much more realistic.

I'm not sure the individual instructions you mentioned have anything to do with team width.

I was playing Fm 2009 today and thinking how much better tactically this game would be if there were seperate width slider's for defence, midfield and attack.

Think about it if you could play your defense wider and your midfield more narrow. My theroy is that your full backs would stay at the byline and wingers like Ronaldo and messi could get much more involved in the build up and use there stats to the full, this would work really well for players that want to play more like teams like Arsenal where their right and left sided midfielders do alot more then just cross the ball, something like a narrow midfield would improve that dramatically while with a wider defense your fullback will provide the width.

From my experience, teams want to play wide when attatcking and narrow when defending.

I have a question about wibble/wobble. Let's say you wanted to tell your winger to cut inside most of the time (not all the time). But with wibble/wobble, you can only put him in the cut inside position if that's what you want. There's no "mixed" option, or "tends to cut inside often". How would that work? Honest question.

I like sirdez24' idea for a drop down menu, as long as it meant what the player would do most the time, not ALL the time.

For the record, I don't see why people hate sliders so much. What I hate are the number of clicks on some which makes it unrealistic and confusing *. I agree with Stian1234. There's no need for more than 5 settings for Mentality.

* You're 1-0 down, you know you need to attack, but how to know if you got just the right click for Attacking? Sorry manager, you failed to see that it required a 16 not a 15 click Attacking tactic..... it's just not realistic. No manager tells their teams how much to attack on the basis of 1-20.

i think if you removed all the sliders it would simplify the game way too much,

Its good to have to think more about setting up your tactics thats one of the reasons why its so addictive and keeps you coming back for more.

I'm not sure the individual instructions you mentioned have anything to do with team width.

E.g. You give both full-backs the Hug Line often instruction. You give your wingers the same. Hey presto, you have a wide formation.

instead of this idea how about including a defensive witdh slider? would be very helpful to play e.g. very compact defense but still have a good width on attacks

* You're 1-0 down, you know you need to attack, but how to know if you got just the right click for Attacking? Sorry manager, you failed to see that it required a 16 not a 15 click Attacking tactic..... it's just not realistic. No manager tells their teams how much to attack on the basis of 1-20.

Adjust the width setting to what you see on the 2D / 3D and try not to think of it as clicks.

E.g. You give both full-backs the Hug Line often instruction. You give your wingers the same. Hey presto, you have a wide formation.

i can see where your coming from but i think something like that should be seperate u can't replace the width slider with just that because there is hardly any variation what if you wanted the width just narrow enough for you wide players to play nearer to the 18 yrd box then the byline?

Adjust the width setting to what you see on the 2D / 3D and try not to think of it as clicks.

I have to, for the time being. Thanks though. Still doesn't address some things that have been raised in this thread. How to make one winger cut inside but the other winger hug the line, for instance. You can't with a team slider. You'll either make them both cut in (narrow) or hug line (wide). Then the full-backs issue when you want them really wide but you want your wingers narrow. Etc.

i can see where your coming from but i think something like that should be seperate u can't replace the width slider with just that because there is hardly any variation what if you wanted the width just narrow enough for you wide players to play nearer to the 18 yrd box then the byline?

Wingers cut inside often.

There isn't that much space between the byline and 18 yard box for there to be a need for many clicks width (variation), to achieve what you want. That would be too precise (and in turn constrictive) and unrealistic imo. Which is my complaint with so many clicks to choose from.

I have to, for the time being. Thanks though. Still doesn't address some things that have been raised in this thread. How to make one winger cut inside but the other winger hug the line, for instance. You can't with a team slider. You'll either make them both cut in (narrow) or hug line (wide). Then the full-backs issue when you want them really wide but you want your wingers narrow. Etc.

I must admit to not having experimented much with getting wingers to cut inside but would presume that setting their "cross ball" settings to rarely and having them play on the opposite wing of their favoured foot would help. Also them having the PPM cuts inside and runs with ball often would seem advantageous.

Does this not work?

I have to, for the time being. Thanks though. Still doesn't address some things that have been raised in this thread. How to make one winger cut inside but the other winger hug the line, for instance. You can't with a team slider. You'll either make them both cut in (narrow) or hug line (wide). Then the full-backs issue when you want them really wide but you want your wingers narrow. Etc.

what does width got to do with player movement? width is about general positioning and drifting (or cutting) in and hugging the line is about player movement. and you can play with one crossing winger and other 'cutting in winger'. i play bentley - right footed right winger on crossing and rwb often and modrić - right footed left winger on crossing rarely. both on free roles. modrić does cut in more than bentley but not as much as i would like to, especially when it comes to without the ball movement.

we would need leteral movement slider to control players' movement not positioning, width and mentality do that allready, arrows used to..

Then the full-backs issue when you want them really wide but you want your wingers narrow. Etc.

That for me is the most annoying thing when your fullbacks seem to be playing through the middle of the pitch! and your wingers hugging the line.

having more then one width slider for defense,midfield and attack is the only way i can see SI could implement this successfully, could be wrong but thats just my opinion. If you started giving players more vocal instructions i think it would take a lot of patches to get ot to work successfully if you get my drift!

i thought the problem with that though was that your players where ending up at the end of the arrow as soon as your team gets possesion which left your team with less options alot of the time

No the problem with the sarrows is that the match engine got broken by them. So instead of working out how to code a better engine they just took them out.

yeah but with the sarrows did you see that as THE solution, i do know that alot of people want them back. Personally i found it more unrealistic with them there because there no freedom in a off the ball sense, he would just run to the end of where the sarrow was put and pretty much stay there till your team lost possession

In my opinion the Sarrows were realistic, not like some uses of the Farrows and Barrows, as all it was supposed to is make that player play a little narrower or wider depending on the use of the Sarrow.

That for me is the most annoying thing when your fullbacks seem to be playing through the middle of the pitch! and your wingers hugging the line.

having more then one width slider for defense,midfield and attack is the only way i can see SI could implement this successfully, could be wrong but thats just my opinion. If you started giving players more vocal instructions i think it would take a lot of patches to get ot to work successfully if you get my drift!

i think leteral movement slider is better becouse you can control each player not just defense/midfield/attack

just for example: leteral movement slider->

GK: hold position

DL: hug line

DR: hug line

DCs: hold position

MCd: hold position

MCa: hold position + free role

LM: drift in + free role

RM: hold position + free role

STd: hug line + free role

Sta: hold position

width slider:

defence: wide (17)

midfield: normal (10)

forwards: normal (13)

there's just much more control with LM slider...

I must admit to not having experimented much with getting wingers to cut inside but would presume that setting their "cross ball" settings to rarely and having them play on the opposite wing of their favoured foot would help.

Does this not work?

It works to a certain extent. But you still need a Narrow width setting to get them close to the 18 yard box often, which ends up affecting the rest of the team (team width affects all outfield players), which brings us back to square one.

Also them having the PPM cuts inside and runs with ball often would seem advantageous.

Cuts inside as PPM is great for when you want your wingers to do that. Not great when you don't want them to. If your saved formations include different styles for wingers then that PPM is a problem sometimes.