Interesting experiment.

I decided to try and create a really defensive/counter attacking tactic to try and use away from home against the big boys. I played Arsenal away with my first version and drew 2-2 due to a player of mine standing around doing nothing and the second conceded was due to some severe pin ball off my players which ended up falling nicely to an Arsenal players feet in the area.

To be honest I was a bit peeved. Two goals conceded which neither Tactics, Teamtalk or substitutions could have avoided.

I then thought I would try something. I tinkered about with the formation and played that same game against Arsenal 6 or so times, still with the defensive shape but just fiddling with the player instructions.

Some games I had more possession than others and the same with my chances but one thing remained the same I defended really well and kept Arsenal at arms length with only long shots coming in.

However I lost every one of those games either 1-0 or 2-0.

And without fail the first goal was always either scored at the very end of the first half or start of the second and evey first goal was in my opinion an AL or Match Engine ploy just to get a goal.

All first goals were either down to the following :

My players standing still with ball at feet until an Arsenal player takes it off them.

A ridiculous possession give away that you would not even see on a Sunday morning.

A 40 yard screamer.

A goal from a cross.

A long keepers kick straight to their striker despite my defensive line being deep.

A Free Kick given away by a sliding tackle by my Centre Back whose tackling is on "normal".

All goals that I would argue you cannot do anything to avoid them no matter what you do. It's almost as if the ME realises it can't score so it makes my players do something stupid so it can score a goal.

6 or so matches doesn't lie.

Thoughts?

well 6 matches is not something that conferms your theory 100%, but i'll say you're not the first saying that (far form it). i suggest you to play at least some 20-30 matches, if you're interested and back up your statements with screanies, becouse it's just the metter of time when people will come here starting to say you - it's your tactics...

in my experience things like 'Match Engine ploy just to get a goal' do happen. they're not happening with such frequency that it became game stoper for me so far. whether these things are poor representation of ME or something alse, i don't know..

All the reasons given are valid ways of scoring a goal, I'm failing to see the point.

All the reasons given are valid ways of scoring a goal, I'm failing to see the point.

true. is AI keeper lobing my from his box, also a valid way to score? i'm playing in PL..

I decided to try and create a really defensive/counter attacking tactic to try and use away from home against the big boys. I played Arsenal away with my first version and drew 2-2 due to a player of mine standing around doing nothing and the second conceded was due to some severe pin ball off my players which ended up falling nicely to an Arsenal players feet in the area.

To be honest I was a bit peeved. Two goals conceded which neither Tactics, Teamtalk or substitutions could have avoided.

I then thought I would try something. I tinkered about with the formation and played that same game against Arsenal 6 or so times, still with the defensive shape but just fiddling with the player instructions.

Some games I had more possession than others and the same with my chances but one thing remained the same I defended really well and kept Arsenal at arms length with only long shots coming in.

However I lost every one of those games either 1-0 or 2-0.

And without fail the first goal was always either scored at the very end of the first half or start of the second and evey first goal was in my opinion an AL or Match Engine ploy just to get a goal.

All first goals were either down to the following :

My players standing still with ball at feet until an Arsenal player takes it off them.

A ridiculous possession give away that you would not even see on a Sunday morning.

A 40 yard screamer.

A goal from a cross.

A long keepers kick straight to their striker despite my defensive line being deep.

A Free Kick given away by a sliding tackle by my Centre Back whose tackling is on "normal".

All goals that I would argue you cannot do anything to avoid them no matter what you do. It's almost as if the ME realises it can't score so it makes my players do something stupid so it can score a goal.

6 or so matches doesn't lie.

Thoughts?

A ridiculous possession give away that you would not even see on a Sunday morning.

Since I haven't seen this, I have no idea if what you're telling is hyperbole or not, either way you can do something about it.

A 40 yard screamer.

Unlucky, but you could have closed them down.

A goal from a cross.

How is that not preventable...

A long keepers kick straight to their striker despite my defensive line being deep.

Unlucky!

A Free Kick given away by a sliding tackle by my Centre Back whose tackling is on "normal".

Uh... Then make them do soft tackles...

So most of them were fairly unlucky. Now I could go through how statistacally this mean nothing, but instead I'll just say this: People will always try and blame something or someone else for their failures. Sometimes in Football manager you get a tad unlucky, sometimes you get lucky, but no matter what you can't just make some rediculous claim that it has nothing to do with tactics and say that the match engine is against you or something as rediculous and paranoid as that. Maybe you thought that you have godlike tactical ability and so if you spent time and effort making a tactic, it must make your very average team become the greatest thing to ever grace God's green Earth. In all honesty, I think that you should just suck it up, go back to the drawing board and keep trying, or if you truly believe your tactic is perfect, then just leave it and keep going.

true. is AI keeper lobing my from his box, also a valid way to score? i'm playing in PL..

Yep... It's called the long ball game, and it sometimes pays off. It pays off slighty more in the game, but hey...

6 or so matches doesn't lie.

Of course. I hope SI read this thread and drop their 5 match test policy.

Can you upload the .PKMs to a site so we can check these 6 matches....

true. is AI keeper lobing my from his box, also a valid way to score? i'm playing in PL..

2 weeks ago.

Rangers vs Hamilton in the SPL.

Allan Mcgregor kicks the ball up the pitch, Kriss Boyd gets on the end of it and strikes.

goal.

They happen.

I think some people maybe missing the point here.

What I think the opening post is trying to say is that the match is somewhat pre - determined. If you are playing well but the computer thinks your opponents should win the the will have your players make a mistake or let a long shot in etc.

I may be wrong though

I would say 95% of the goals I concede are as the OP.

6 matches cannot be considered evidence though. Add that to the fact that, half the 'unstoppable' goals he stated could indeed be stopped then you have a pretty weak case.

I think some people maybe missing the point here.

What I think the opening post is trying to say is that the match is somewhat pre - determined. If you are playing well but the computer thinks your opponents should win the the will have your players make a mistake or let a long shot in etc.

I may be wrong though

Paranoid toss... That's all that is!

If that were the case, my Derby side would not have won the Champions League twice and the Premier League once in 5 years... Not to mention 3 FA Cups and a league cup!

Perhaps a more interesting experiment would be to swap just the squads of Arsenal and Fulham and see if the Arsenal players still play amazingly.

2 weeks ago.

Rangers vs Hamilton in the SPL.

Allan Mcgregor kicks the ball up the pitch, Kriss Boyd gets on the end of it and strikes.

goal.

They happen.

no it wasn't carew that scored, it was brad friedel who scored (lobed) keeper in my match against vila. i didn't say even such goals don't happen but it's funny way of receiving the first goal of the season. the problem is that those things 'do' happen and i can't say the ME cheated. but i'd like to know how many such goals has SAF seen in his long career with united

I'm not denying they happen and I am certainly not trying to say any of my tactics are perfect and yes certainly they are perfectly valid ways of scoring a goal.

What I am saying is that all of the fisrt goals were down to "desperate ways" of scoring a goal.

Yes I do "close down often" the likes of Fabregas which is why it is frustrating when he does score a 40 yard screamer.

Yes I do "show onto weaker foot" their wingers so yes it is frustrating those wingers get to the byline and deliver that cross that leads to the goal with their stronger foot.

It's frustrating to have your Midfielders on "through balls often" but they hit your striker on the back of his head as he is running, but it doesn't happen to the opposition.

It's annoying when one of your players has the ball at his feet but he doesn't move, he just stands there until an opposition player takes it off him.

It's annoying when their goalkeeper kicks it straight to their forward and he scores but yet my goalkeeper does the same thing but the kick runs all the way through to their keeper.

It's frustrating when my winger on RWB Often, FR Often and Cross Ball Often runs beautifully down the wing straight out of play.

It's frustrating when my corner taker with a corner stat of 18 constantly curls the ball out of play.

All this yet the AL on the whole plays perfectly.

Now it's all very well to say "People will always try and blame something or someone else for their failures." but at the same time it is also easy to defend a game to the hilt totally blinkered from the issues many, not just myself mention. Read the Forums, you will find the evidence there.

Statistically speaking, "evidence" from the forum can be seen as ******** sometimes too. Again, I can't be bothered saying this as it's been mentioned once or twice before.

You like your hyperbole don't you. Most of what you've said happens in real life all the time anyhow. Both the AI and you play by the same rules, remember that.

What team are you?

What team are you?

Play as West Ham.

Why is ******** cencored by the way? Is this board a bit touchy... That's just down right rediculous if you ask me!

There are four things contributing to the (limited) testing you've done.

1) Arsenal are over-powered in the game, this has been registered as a bug and I'm pretty sure is going to be fixed in the 9.2 patch that is due any day now

2) There are several small match engine bugs, many of which you have commented on that contribute to goals/mistakes, again these are being fixed in the next patch

3) Your team is vastly inferior, you can't expect to block every single one of Fabregas' long shots purely by putting an OI on him, there will be times when he or the Arsenal wingers will get the better of the people you have set to mark them. It's not an exact science, you do not counter "type A" attack with "type A" defence.

4) Bad luck

The patch is likely to fix some things with regards to the match engine, but a lot of the goals you mention in the first post are perfectly legitimate ways for Arsenal to score against West Ham in real life and in a perfect match engine world.

I think some people maybe missing the point here.

What I think the opening post is trying to say is that the match is somewhat pre - determined. If you are playing well but the computer thinks your opponents should win the the will have your players make a mistake or let a long shot in etc.

I may be wrong though

I'm not saying the match is pre determined just that mistakes happen in which you have no control over. Yep it happens IRL but it's annoying when all is going well and it happens out of your control.

For instance :

Player A with pretty good decision and concentration levels with a high passing attribute on mixed passing and through balls often upon receiving a pass just stands there with ball at his feet, and stays standing there until an opposition player tackles him.

Now when that tackle ends up in a goal for the opposition it's annoying.

I wouldn't mind if Sagna falls flat on his face upom chasing a ball with my striker Pazzini but he never does and in fact keeps up with Pazzini despite being a tad slower!!!

I know that you're going to hate this but....... it's your tactics! If you are playing a 'big four' side or indeed any side that is far superior to yours and you 'park the bus' in-front of your penalty area and invite them onto you without really trying to score or at least threaten their goal then I'm sorry but probably 8 or 9 times out of 10 you will lose. Maybe by the odd goal but you will lose, and that reflects real life. Man Utd v Sunderland a couple of weeks ago was a good example of this, Sunderland probably only got out of their half 5 or 6 times in the game and ended up losing by the odd goal in injury time! How many clear cut chances were Arsenal getting in each game? how many other chances were they getting? If you play such negative tactics then the best you can really hope for is a draw. Have you seen the way Hull have played against the big four this season? They have attacked sensibly and put them under pressure and they've had some good results.

The scorelines and the way the match plays out IS pre-determined before the game, it then re-calculates with any changes you make.

There are four things contributing to the (limited) testing you've done.

1) Arsenal are over-powered in the game, this has been registered as a bug and I'm pretty sure is going to be fixed in the 9.2 patch that is due any day now

2) There are several small match engine bugs, many of which you have commented on that contribute to goals/mistakes, again these are being fixed in the next patch

3) Your team is vastly inferior, you can't expect to block every single one of Fabregas' long shots purely by putting an OI on him, there will be times when he or the Arsenal wingers will get the better of the people you have set to mark them. It's not an exact science, you do not counter "type A" attack with "type A" defence.

4) Bad luck

The patch is likely to fix some things with regards to the match engine, but a lot of the goals you mention in the first post are perfectly legitimate ways for Arsenal to score against West Ham in real life and in a perfect match engine world.

A fair point. As I say yep mistakes are part of football, I just guess it would be more palatable if the AL made a mistake once in a while as well!!

The scorelines and the way the match plays out IS pre-determined before the game, it then re-calculates with any changes you make.

So I'm right then. If one of my players is going to make a **** up which gifts the Opposition a goal there is nothing I can do about it?!

It's AI by the way, not AL

It's AI by the way, not AL

I know I just call him AL for some bizarre reason!!!

I know I just call him AL for some bizarre reason!!!

Is your real name Paul Simon? lol

West Ham could play a team as good as the Game Gunners in real life and lose 6 times in a row quite easily. Mr Zola could do everything right - tell them to close down, man-mark the untoppable Adebayor with his strongest CB, close down and turn onto the weak foot every single player, and still an individual error will cost you the game.

Note I say GAME Gunners, not real life ones. Like others have said, it's a known bug. Perhaps if you tried reloading 6 games against Liverpool it might have better results. But that probably won't fit with you "the AI cheats" conspiracy theory.

Let me mention a couple of things here:

1) Are you watching full matches or is it on highlights? If only on highlights you will only see players making mistakes that lead to goals when those mistakes, er... lead to goals. Or at least near misses. Arsenal are too powerful on the game - fact acknowledged by SI - so when the Hammers make a mistake, say kicking clearing the ball right up a colleague backside, their superhuman prowess will mean they are more likely to take the chance when presented to them.

2) I have watched only a couple of matches on full but the AI makes just as many mistakes as my team. The only difference is I am punished more often. (I am Newcastle at the moment)

3) I have fallen foul of the GK long-kick maybe twice in the last season I played. I am not intentionally countering it, so I can't say "it's your tactics" and give you constructive advice on how to help stop it, just confirming it CAN be beaten and that it can't be that hard. I push my defensive line up and mark zonally if that helps.

4) My mistakes lessen the more I play the same team. Perhaps the whole "team gelling" aspect of the game has gone too far the wrong way. A team that is playing together for the first time should not play as well as a team that has gelled over a season, but yes - too many mistakes.

5) In real life, no matter how many instructions you give a player, individual mistakes cost games. Otherwise every game would be either 0-0 or 9-9. This is the same with FM. It HAS to be the same for FM. I have always found it disappointing that in each edition there are "super-tactics" that are near-perfect (FM08 had the arrow from the MC position that netted the AMC 20 goals a season, and of course the delightful "challenge keeper at corner" exploit), but this edition hasn't had one that I've heard about. That said, I have to concede it needs a bit of a tweak the other way - it IS too hard at times, and the AI managers are a bit too GOOD this year. As opposed to being complete morons in previous editions.

6) My little story: I logged on for half an hour's cheeky play whilst waiting for my tea. I played and beat Portsmouth 3-1, my first win in 6, then went on to beat some Eastern European team 6-0 and drew with the mighty Arsenal 1-1, finally beating Liverpool 4-0 before my oven went "ding". Idiot that I am I closed the game without saving. When I loaded the game up a day later I lost to Portsmouth 4-0 using the same tactics and team talks. Considering I'd already played the game and beaten them I thought I could live with my conscience and reloaded the game, played it again. 2-0 loss. Quit, reload. 1-1 draw. Hmmm. No, quit, reload. 4-2 loss. Quit reload. Holiday. Ass man wins it 1-0. Okay, I'll take that. Then I beat the Euro team 3-0 and start losing to Arsenal over and over. Finally get my ass man to play it and he loses 6-0. My next time I get a 1-0 loss and move on. Draw with Liverpool. So what am I saying here? Just that the game is quite random. My team was stronger on paper than Portsmouth but hadn't gelled yet - I had a lot of new signings - so I probably SHOULDN'T have won the game. But the first time I played them I guess the strong win built momentum and gave my players confidence and motivation, which all contribute to how well they play the game.

It's all just too complicated to break down into simple "yes, I agree" or "no, you're full of it". The game is flawed, yes, but it doesn't have the ability to "cheat" since the AI and human user have access to exactly the same tools. I have won plenty of games with long shots from Geremi and Barton, and conceded a few too.

The ME is neutral and only responds to instructions from the human or the AI manager. The problem lies I think, in the nature of the interface between manager and players. The AI manager gets his message across faster and more clearly.

Oh, and Arsenal are too strong. That's about it.

So your experiment has shown flaws in the match engine. I had similar problems but my thread was considered unconstructive and was closed.

My previous thread was asking "are the players deaf?" because they do not follow instructions that are laid out for them in black and white, similar to what your saying Mr. Hammer.

Amount of help recieved........ zero :o

Sussex Hammer, my problem with West Ham has been that with EVERY single tactic or set that i have used, having managed to put together a decent squad and managing to overperform in each and every save i've started and played so far, but then after 10-15 games or so, completely out of nowhere, total collapse and that is with players gelled and all on Superb morale?

Stranger still, this collapse lasts for about 10-15 games and then BANG, thetactic is up and running again, just as it was to beging with?

Guess what happens next?, yes, another 10-15 games of overperforming and getting good performances and results, even away to the big four, then WALLOP, another poor run out of nowhere?

I was wondering if you were witnessing anything like that?

This also happened when i tried playing as both Newcastle and Everton and like my West Ham saves, they too were abandoned.

It has been suggested that this is a tactical issue and that having overperformed, teams were starting to play differently against me, but the problem i have with that answer, is that i was using a tactic set based on match odds and opposition formations, so i had already played against both poorer more defensive teams, right through to the extremes like playing away to Man Utd and Arsenal and getting both performances and results?

I'm not enjoying myself anymore, i have no answer for whats happening and no other suggestion seems to fit? if something does'nt click soon, i'll just have to quit the game for good.

West Ham could play a team as good as the Game Gunners in real life and lose 6 times in a row quite easily. Mr Zola could do everything right - tell them to close down, man-mark the untoppable Adebayor with his strongest CB, close down and turn onto the weak foot every single player, and still an individual error will cost you the game.

Note I say GAME Gunners, not real life ones. Like others have said, it's a known bug. Perhaps if you tried reloading 6 games against Liverpool it might have better results. But that probably won't fit with you "the AI cheats" conspiracy theory.

Let me mention a couple of things here:

1) Are you watching full matches or is it on highlights? If only on highlights you will only see players making mistakes that lead to goals when those mistakes, er... lead to goals. Or at least near misses. Arsenal are too powerful on the game - fact acknowledged by SI - so when the Hammers make a mistake, say kicking clearing the ball right up a colleague backside, their superhuman prowess will mean they are more likely to take the chance when presented to them.

2) I have watched only a couple of matches on full but the AI makes just as many mistakes as my team. The only difference is I am punished more often. (I am Newcastle at the moment)

3) I have fallen foul of the GK long-kick maybe twice in the last season I played. I am not intentionally countering it, so I can't say "it's your tactics" and give you constructive advice on how to help stop it, just confirming it CAN be beaten and that it can't be that hard. I push my defensive line up and mark zonally if that helps.

4) My mistakes lessen the more I play the same team. Perhaps the whole "team gelling" aspect of the game has gone too far the wrong way. A team that is playing together for the first time should not play as well as a team that has gelled over a season, but yes - too many mistakes.

5) In real life, no matter how many instructions you give a player, individual mistakes cost games. Otherwise every game would be either 0-0 or 9-9. This is the same with FM. It HAS to be the same for FM. I have always found it disappointing that in each edition there are "super-tactics" that are near-perfect (FM08 had the arrow from the MC position that netted the AMC 20 goals a season, and of course the delightful "challenge keeper at corner" exploit), but this edition hasn't had one that I've heard about. That said, I have to concede it needs a bit of a tweak the other way - it IS too hard at times, and the AI managers are a bit too GOOD this year. As opposed to being complete morons in previous editions.

6) My little story: I logged on for half an hour's cheeky play whilst waiting for my tea. I played and beat Portsmouth 3-1, my first win in 6, then went on to beat some Eastern European team 6-0 and drew with the mighty Arsenal 1-1, finally beating Liverpool 4-0 before my oven went "ding". Idiot that I am I closed the game without saving. When I loaded the game up a day later I lost to Portsmouth 4-0 using the same tactics and team talks. Considering I'd already played the game and beaten them I thought I could live with my conscience and reloaded the game, played it again. 2-0 loss. Quit, reload. 1-1 draw. Hmmm. No, quit, reload. 4-2 loss. Quit reload. Holiday. Ass man wins it 1-0. Okay, I'll take that. Then I beat the Euro team 3-0 and start losing to Arsenal over and over. Finally get my ass man to play it and he loses 6-0. My next time I get a 1-0 loss and move on. Draw with Liverpool. So what am I saying here? Just that the game is quite random. My team was stronger on paper than Portsmouth but hadn't gelled yet - I had a lot of new signings - so I probably SHOULDN'T have won the game. But the first time I played them I guess the strong win built momentum and gave my players confidence and motivation, which all contribute to how well they play the game.

It's all just too complicated to break down into simple "yes, I agree" or "no, you're full of it". The game is flawed, yes, but it doesn't have the ability to "cheat" since the AI and human user have access to exactly the same tools. I have won plenty of games with long shots from Geremi and Barton, and conceded a few too.

The ME is neutral and only responds to instructions from the human or the AI manager. The problem lies I think, in the nature of the interface between manager and players. The AI manager gets his message across faster and more clearly.

Oh, and Arsenal are too strong. That's about it.

Fantastic reply. Interestingly enough in the first game of my "poor experiment" I actually drew 2-2 but in my case the phone rang and I failed to save the game. Both goals I conceded though were due to one of my players standing around sightseeing and the next was a 40 yard screamer. However even with a defensive tactic I had around 12 shots on goal with about 5 on target which I was happy with.

Like you I loaded up and played same line up, same instructions for my team and opposition and yet I lost 2-0 with irritatingly not one shot on target??!!

In the last game I played I was 1 down at half time with about 3 shots on goal but second half I walloped all instructions to attacking. I lost 3-0 thanks to them beating the offsied trap twice (fair enough) but I managed one long effort on target. So 3 on with a defensive outlook yet only the one attacking!!!!

I admit I play the games on extended highlights so probably don't see the whole picture but against the likes of Arsenal it is tough to win whatever you play. If you defend they will just pummell you, if you attack they will knock the balls over the top.

Yes Arsenal would be expected IRL to beat West Ham 9 times out of 10 but.....

Once in a while IRL Robert Green will have a superb game, Arsenals strikers will have a nightmare and will have about 20 shots on goal but won't score and Bobby Zamora will score probably his only goal of the season. It happened about two years ago.

That's what I am saying, in FM it doesn't really happen because the AI Teams will invariably play as well every time and your best bet is a 3-2 win rather than a 1-0!

Sussex Hammer, my problem with West Ham has been that with EVERY single tactic or set that i have used, having managed to put together a decent squad and managing to overperform in each and every save i've started and played so far, but then after 10-15 games or so, completely out of nowhere, total collapse and that is with players gelled and all on Superb morale?

Stranger still, this collapse lasts for about 10-15 games and then BANG, thetactic is up and running again, just as it was to beging with?

Guess what happens next?, yes, another 10-15 games of overperforming and getting good performances and results, even away to the big four, then WALLOP, another poor run out of nowhere?

I was wondering if you were witnessing anything like that?

This also happened when i tried playing as both Newcastle and Everton and like my West Ham saves, they too were abandoned.

It has been suggested that this is a tactical issue and that having overperformed, teams were starting to play differently against me, but the problem i have with that answer, is that i was using a tactic set based on match odds and opposition formations, so i had already played against both poorer more defensive teams, right through to the extremes like playing away to Man Utd and Arsenal and getting both performances and results?

I'm not enjoying myself anymore, i have no answer for whats happening and no other suggestion seems to fit? if something does'nt click soon, i'll just have to quit the game for good.

Yes experienced that in my first season. Designed a fairly decent tactic that I had gone about 8 unbeaten on. It was defensively sound but I couldn't get the strikers scoring so it was 1-0's and even 0-0's which actually was a nice change. I beat Arsenal (Ironically) in the League Cup Final with a last minute goal yrt the next game I got stuffed 4-1 at home against Chelsea. From then on I don't think I actually won a game for the rest of the season. If lucky I got 0-0's or 1-1's but because my strikers couldn't score if I went 2-0 down I knew there was no chance of me scoring two.

Funnily enough up until the Final Ashton as a left sided Target Man averaged 7.00 a game and had about 15 goals, but whoever I played on the right averaged in the 5's. If I put the right sided striker as a TM he would average 7.00 but wouldn't score and Ashton in his usual slot but not as TM averaged 5.00.

Some of our tactics will be interesting if the patch tweaks the strikers!!

So no, you are not alone!

Ok, Ok, Ok, I take it all back, it can be done!!!

http://s250.photobucket.com/albums/gg265/SussexHammer/?action=view&current=ArsenalvWestHam.jpg

re th op, i understand your frustration, i lost 3-2 yesterday with 2 goals of smimilar style in last ten but, often you see a real life match where a goal is scored that was not down to tactics etc etc, long shots, bobbles etc. there is a lot you can do something about and if ur tactics are good overall over a season you should do well but one of the best things about football is its unpredictability and its the same in fm, frustrating but sometimes they also go in your favour and it DOES happen IRL