player error / mistakes / idiocy

restarting this as a new thread because i think it's worth a query.

have SI reviewed the number of goals / opportunities made because of stupid errors in the game? is the 'apparent' high level because of the 3d (and previously, 2d) match engine not being enough YET (understandable, i suppose) or is it an intended inclusion? i'm pretty skeptical to the amount of goals that are caused by mistakes in top division football in italy/england/spain (which are the leagues i predominantly play in), not just that i concede myself but also the opposition.

i don't mean long ball mistakes here, though that does happen more often FOR me than against, at a stupid rate. i'm talking about ludicrous backpasses, defenders refusing to move or tackle, goalkeepers randomly missing the ball, you get the gist of what i mean. the players in FM are more idiotic than their counterparts in real life, this may be forgiveable in that of course AI is some task to recreate but perhaps the 'decisions' attribute has far more weighting than it should in terms of making bad decisions.

are you still playing and enjoying the game?

no, actually. my napoli game i cherished got screwed by the july 24th bug and i've no interest in starting a new game until the next patch is released. i did enjoy the napoli game quite a lot because of the challenge though, but it doesn't mean i didn't notice flaws or annoyances with the game.

but that wasnt what the original post was about..

if it annoys you so much.. dont play the game.

still thousands of people who love it.

so shhhhhhhhhh.

Before saying that something happens more in the game than in real life, you should figure out how much it happens in real life.

but that wasnt what the original post was about..

if it annoys you so much.. dont play the game.

still thousands of people who love it.

so shhhhhhhhhh.

but that wasnt what the original post was about..

if it annoys you so much.. dont play the game.

still thousands of people who love it.

so shhhhhhhhhh.

just because you and thousands are enjoying it doesn't mean that there are thousands that aren't. we all paid our money so we're just as entitled to our opinions as you.

thats good. no more moaning about a very good game

ok you have fun reading people moaning about the game, so needless, ill read interesting things that the forum was made for.

Before saying that something happens more in the game than in real life, you should figure out how much it happens in real life.

but i was ASKING are the figures parallel to real life. furthermore, i am inquiring if the number of goals created by such pieces of stupidity included intentionally or a result of the match engine / player attributes

ok you have fun reading people moaning about the game, so needless, ill read interesting things that the forum was made for.

but that wasnt what the original post was about..

if it annoys you so much.. dont play the game.

still thousands of people who love it.

so shhhhhhhhhh.

ok you have fun reading people moaning about the game, so needless, ill read interesting things that the forum was made for.

thats good, why waste you time on threads that don't interest you? a forum by definintion is a place where people can meet to discuss things, there are no limits on what can be discussed.

to be honest, no, im very happy with how it works, it has its ups and downs. but this year is the most realistic and challenging yet. and i like that.

to be honest, no, im very happy with how it works, it has its ups and downs. but this year is the most realistic and challenging yet. and i like that.

Shoosh fanboy, shoosh!

but that wasnt what the original post was about..

if it annoys you so much.. dont play the game.

still thousands of people who love it.

so shhhhhhhhhh.

I'm sorry i didn't realise you were a mod? So basically because your happy nobody has a right to complain, in no way was the op rude he was just making a point which he is within his rights to do so, may i suggest you return to enjoying your game then and stop complaining about people complaining!!!

round of applause for that one.

Your doing exactly the same thing!!!

I had Gomes do a Gomes a couple of hours ago, against my Arsenal side. Very happy about that.

Leave the childish behaviour out please.

I do agree with the OP.

I have seen many defenders doing stupid things in this game that they don't do half as much IRL. The main ones that really annoy me are:

1/ Defenders trying to play the ball back to the keeper, under no pressure, but kicking it too hard one side of the goal for a corner.

2/ Defenders mopping up a loose ball out wide after a corner and blasting it into row Z and conceding the corner when there wasn't an attacker within 20 yards of him.

3/ Defenders just gazing at the ball as it flies over everyone from a goal kick, then realising they should be marking the forward who has now scored it anyway.... despite being set to tight marking.

4/ Defenders (or any other player) not reacting to a loose ball AT ALL. For example, there is a ricochet off a player and ball is loose just outside the area but the defenders just follow their strict pattern of zonal marking even though it's 2 yards away and instead leave it to the striker that has covered 30 yards to blast it in. Deep breath!

5/ Defenders all chasing the same ball. I've lost count how many times the ball is being played around the area and after a few seconds my entire back 4 are surrounding the one attacker for the ball, even on zonal marking and low closing down stats. So of course the attacker just flicks it over the lot of them to a free man who scores.

Basically the defenders suck.

Has anyone else experienced any of this?

please don't close this thread because of silliness, it's more than worthy of discussion because in terms of anecdotal evidence we're all of course likely to say 'they happen too much' but then there's so much biases involved for said evidence though that it's rendered fairly useless.

you make a very good point about scope of errors from simple miss judgement ie not working with his team mates in of side trap to passing across the backline.

Its difficult one but there does seem to be rather too much of either one minute world class to next sunday league standard.

I always felt the game has needed an extra attribute called football intellegence which then regulates varying degrees.

In Fm2008 you sometimes got stupidity of your players needlessy kicking out and text saying he put it out to safety yet he should be attempting a cross this always happened when it broke to baxk to him at a corner. No injuries so it was not sporting.

Defenders kicking balls for corners under No pressure when if in doubt you put it out for the least danger and thats a throwin. Now not saying these stupiditys eliminate completely but with football inteligence mistakes could become more realistic to the level of the players CA.

We would see current plays for the given situation when the player does well instead seeing sometimes the you have it no you have it syndrome where to teamates pass it to each other like a pre match warm up.

Basically the game needs some scripted good plays and lots varing errors some very minor like loss control mistimed tackles to more like under pass or over passing to 5 - 10 yards.

This leads to more new ideas such as new attribs for short medium and long passing.

The game attribs should have evolved as the game become more complexed.

keeper parries... open net, 2 yards out and in the 6 yard box, hits the far post then other forward blasts wide... LOL

this is very interesting because back in the old days of commentary only, it felt a lot rarer and as such 'acceptable', but again there are biases involved with this perspective. essentially, the match engine has some way to go yet and the 3d (and 2d) has gone some way to show us this

My keeper, Akinfeev, scored in the FA Cup for Man City v Crewe. He booted it up field from his penalty area, it went into the box, the keeper came out seemingly to catch the ball, missed it, stood there and watched it roll in.

I'm definately dissapointed with the idiocy of the play sometimes, and I can't understand why anybody would just accept these basic flaws, makes the game extremely frustrating to play and unrealistic. Remember in the 2D days when you're LB would pass the ball straight to an opposing winger who would then run all the way up the pitch and score? 3D is even worse, with even dumber things happenning all the time.

thats good. no more moaning about a very good game

I wish people like you would stop with this type of posting. It's damned annoying when people want to start a legitimate discussion about problems with the game and people like you jump in and say something like "you're playing it wrong/don't play it if you don't like/stop whining".

I wish people like you would stop with this type of posting. It's damned annoying when people want to start a legitimate discussion about problems with the game and people like you jump in and say something like "you're playing it wrong/don't play it if you don't like/stop whining".

Agreed, there are flaws like with any game.

you make a very good point about scope of errors from simple miss judgement ie not working with his team mates in of side trap to passing across the backline.

Its difficult one but there does seem to be rather too much of either one minute world class to next sunday league standard.

I always felt the game has needed an extra attribute called football intellegence which then regulates varying degrees.

In Fm2008 you sometimes got stupidity of your players needlessy kicking out and text saying he put it out to safety yet he should be attempting a cross this always happened when it broke to baxk to him at a corner. No injuries so it was not sporting.

Defenders kicking balls for corners under No pressure when if in doubt you put it out for the least danger and thats a throwin. Now not saying these stupiditys eliminate completely but with football inteligence mistakes could become more realistic to the level of the players CA.

We would see current plays for the given situation when the player does well instead seeing sometimes the you have it no you have it syndrome where to teamates pass it to each other like a pre match warm up.

Basically the game needs some scripted good plays and lots varing errors some very minor like loss control mistimed tackles to more like under pass or over passing to 5 - 10 yards.

This leads to more new ideas such as new attribs for short medium and long passing.

The game attribs should have evolved as the game become more complexed.

Recently, I had a game a friendly against Man City, in my QPR save. I had been weathering pressure the entire game and somehow it was still 0-0. In like, the 88th min, a long ball to my goalie...who had a ST about 15 yds away....he CHESTS it down and away from him......into the path of their ST, who scores the winning goal..... I was shocked, and the only consolation I could think of, was the fact that it didn't happen in a cup final or something.

I've also had the problem with all of the defenders chasing after 1 guy as if in middle school gym class. I remember making tactics in 08, and having varying degrees of success. This year, my varying degrees are "You lose", "You're probably gonna lose", or my personal favorite "WOO!!!! 5 game winning streak......and now you lose 5 straight for no apparent reason"

I looked at the TT&F guide, but using any of the pre-made tactics goes against my point of playing, which is to make my own tactic through trial and error, not be handed the answer. The other versions of this game felt a lot better than this one, as I got more feedback as to what I was doing wrong......and my goalie didn't chest the ball into the path of opposing strikers........

It's bad enough figuring out a tactic is so hard now.....but when you add sunday league mistakes in championship football..........it's almost unbearable

how much of it is the 3d being bugged as opposed to the match engine flawed/incomplete?

I wish people like you would stop with this type of posting. It's damned annoying when people want to start a legitimate discussion about problems with the game and people like you jump in and say something like "you're playing it wrong/don't play it if you don't like/stop whining".

contradiction there mate.

At least it's not just me then. I never seem to lose games by the other team playing better, it is always because of mistakes. I can tell which way a game is going to go from the first highlight, if my players start randomly booting the ball off each other when under no pressure or passing to nobody then I know I will lose. I try to tell myself it's just because of the 3D but it doesn't make it any less frustrating.

I dont think it is flaws, the match engine has calculated a score and has to forfill it. I was winning 5-0 after 50 mins and there was about a futher 3 occasions where a goal should have been certain but it was squandered in a silly or careless way. When happening earlier in the match the were scored.

I dont think it is flaws, the match engine has calculated a score and has to forfill it. I was winning 5-0 after 50 mins and there was about a futher 3 occasions where a goal should have been certain but it was squandered in a silly or careless way. When happening earlier in the match the were scored.

if this is true, then that's ludicrous though. i was under the impression the whole thing worked by a cause and effect not a predetermination then work back sort of thing

if this is true, then that's ludicrous though. i was under the impression the whole thing worked by a cause and effect not a predetermination then work back sort of thing

Matches are pre-determined in the sense that it is set up at the start depending on the tactics, morale etc. If you make changes then the outcome will change. So it is cause and effect to a certain extent but matches aren't played out in real time. If that makes sense

but are goals played out because the predetermined result stating it has to happen and the game 'forcing' a way of a goal, or a result of the physical elements/actions?

but are goals played out because the predetermined result stating it has to happen and the game 'forcing' a way of a goal, or a result of the physical elements/actions?

No, because every piece of play you see during the highlights is calculated during the 'Setting up match' bit, not just the score.

So if you're having trouble scoring or something similar then it's because the match engine has taken everything into account (attributes, tactics, moral, luck and the million other things that go into calculating a match) and calculated what will happen in every second of the game.

You are then shown the results of these calculations in highlight form.

i score fine thanks, i'm trying to deduce what determines the seemingly high amount of player mistakes that lead to goal in top level football

There's a discrepancy between Neji and PaulC here - could somebody clear up exactly how far a result is predetermined?

There's a discrepancy between Neji and PaulC here - could somebody clear up exactly how far a result is predetermined?

What discrepancy? Paul C has only made two posts in here and neither of them say anything about how the matches are calculated.

As I said earlier, when you start a match and you see the 'Setting up match' text or whatever it is in FM09, then everything is being taken into account to calculate the whole match, including any tactical changes made by the AI.

If you make any changes at all, either during the match or at half time, these millions of calculations are carried out again to determine what will happen in the rest of the match from that point.

So the matches are pre-determined in a sense, but not in the way some people seem to think. The highlights are simply showing you the results of the calculations done when you started the match or made a change. The game does not play out in real time, that would be far too complicated.

That's great, Paul. I completely understand what you're saying. I'm just confused about why Neji and now chopper99 feel in a position to assert so categorically the opposite!

Apologies for any confusion caused, I was almost certain I'd seen someone from SI say thats how it worked but obviously, I've been making stuff up

What annoys me most is player behavior when their team is supposed to be under pressure by the opposition. When a team is dominating, the opposition players suddenly stop going for the ball, instead they crawl slowly towards it as if being stuck in mud. The goalkeepers and defenders refuse to hit a decent clearance, instead they'll wait until getting closed down or simply hit it into touch even when they have enough time to aim it at their forwards (or pass it to the midfielders who in these scenarios seem to be ignored). When a ball is hit towards the strikers they refuse to take it down to relieve the pressure, even when told to hold up ball. Instead they'll just head it on aimlessly, often in the direction they're facing when they could easily be taking it in their stride. All this contributing to the dominating team getting all the possession they want.

but that wasnt what the original post was about..

if it annoys you so much.. dont play the game.

still thousands of people who love it.

so shhhhhhhhhh.

That is the dumbest reply I have ever seen!!!

I bet you are great support to all those being sacked in the credit crunch, "yeah but i have a job so shhhh".

Jeez! :/

Defenders are absolutely atrocious in 09.

That's great, Paul. I completely understand what you're saying. I'm just confused about why Neji and now chopper99 feel in a position to assert so categorically the opposite!

The opposite? I'm saying exactly the same thing Paul C is, just in a different way.

From what I know the match engine calculates everything and then shows you what it's calculated as highlights.

No result is pre-determined. In other words the match engine does not work to produce a desired result. When it starts, it has no idea how it will end.

Instead, each match consists of a second by second sequential simulation, and whatever is the situation at the end, that is your result.

Where people are getting confused is that FM has the ability to play the same match sequentially over and over. To demonstrate this, save a pkm and load it in from the game start screen, where you will see the same game unfold that you watched originally.

We use this facility to pre-calculate the *highlights* that will then be shown in tandem with 2D or 3D. This allows us to skip between each highlight and know when to jump into the 2D or 3D. Just dont confuse the match screen knowing what is going to happen next with the match engine knowing it

thanks a lot, i was just looking for this very assurance as well as bugs with regards to player foolishness.

it'd be interesting to be able to 'see' a match with the old cm engines to see how much exactly fm made a way forward in all these years of development, no doubt the match engine is a lot more impressive now. ai managed teams are still ******** when it comes to transfers of course, but that's besides the point!