Why does SI release an incomplete product?

You have probably noticed this pattern too and there have undoubtedly been discussions on it before. Since I have missed the explanation, I'd like to ask it again for my own sake.

Why is it that the past 4-5 FMs (or is the number even bigger) have first come out as a sort of a highly creative, pick'nmix collection of bugs within the supposed framework of an FM game. People go out an buy the game and end up pulling they hair out and yelling in frustrated rage at their screen, neighbours and dogs for the first month. Then when they complain about the product, the answer is "the patch is on the way" - as if that makes it okay. Think about it, one game per year, at least one month of that year the game's not a complete product, yet the price ain't 11/12 of the price of other games. In fact, in Finland FM is one of the most expensive games.

You can come up with your own comparisons, but how'd you feel like if you a TV that's supposed to last for 12 years and would only show things upside down or in red for the first year. Or a house in which the floors are made of broken glass for the first 20 years or whatever is one twelth of how ever long houses are supposed to last.

So why is it? Are they rushing it for the Christmas market? Are using the most loyal users, the ones who buy it first, as their final testers for the first months? Do they not see these problems before releasing the game? Why is it? A friend of mine suggested that they do this so that people who use illegal version would have it crack it twice or three times or something (I'm not an expert on computer so I don't know if that's true, but he said all patches or updates or versions have to be cracked separately and apparently that's a big job to do).

I didn't used to mind so much. I used to just shut up, bite my lip and wait for the patch. Now! This year it enfuriates me because I have to spend my Christmas in a place without access to an internet (yes, those places still exist) so I'm stuck with this wonderland-version of the game, where rules of logic and nature are considered helpful suggestions at best.

To summarise, I'd like to know the reason why they first sell me the game that isn't really the game but something that will end up being the game. Please.

P.s. I do enjoy the new game momentarily, but usually it just ends up being a set up for yet another disappointment.

They don't control the release date, so it's inevitable there will be some rough edges that need to be refined in a patch on each release.

That said, you do have to wonder how some of the stuff was let through this version.

it's always going to be incomplete.

if it was complete they wouldn't release new versions, you'd just get updates.

it's an incomplete game due to the limitations of technology & money.

well that & you can't think of everything yourself, so by releasing it they also get feedback for the next version.

think of it is a yearly fee of £30 to play a pretty good game which is updated every year.

all i want is FOR THEM TO MAKE A SIMPLE CHANGE TO THE EDITOR SO I CAN EDIT A BUNCH OF PLAYERS WITH A COUPLE OF CLICKS INSTEAD OF GOING THROUGH THEM ONE BY ONE GODDAMMIT!!!

Pffffffff, every year the same rants!

If they would release the game two months later they would still have to patch it. With the amount of testers they have it would probably take ages to get all the bugs out.

So they release the game earlier, which gives them a whole army of testers. And it gives the customers a chance to play a beta version.

I mean, by now everyone KNOWS that the real game is only being released with the second patch. So next time, buy the game two months later when the second patch comes out!

To the OP, Do you have a PS3?

FM09, thanks to the release-day patch, is the most playable FM at this stage in years.

They expect it because, in theory, a product you pay money for should be in 100% working order when you get it. Even SI admitted it wouldn't have been acceptable without the patch. However, the patch made it the best FM I've played on release day so far. It's just an awkward and difficult fact that software bugs are hard to avoid, even with testing.

Why should an in-complete game be released?

I understand the odd bug, but some of the problems are blatant to see and almost everyone who bought the game noticed them within an hour or so :confused:.

Maybe if the game isnt complete, they shouldn't charge a full price?

PLUS -when a 'new patch' comes out, you have to re-start the game to fix all the bugs - This means it stops you and you have to START AGAIN. Which isnt normally convenient. Unless of course you've shelved the game until SI could be bothered.

I wonder why Champ Manager 09 isnt out until April 09 .

If they took an extra couple of months to iron out more bugs, you wouldn't be playing it now.

Would you really rather not be playing it now at all and wait for a complete release, or would you rather play it for a few months in it's current condition and then patch it at a later stage?

If they delayed the release to iron out more minor bugs, there would be 10 times more complaining people on these forums than there is now.

PLUS -when a 'new patch' comes out, you have to re-start the game to fix all the bugs - This means it stops you and you have to START AGAIN. Which isnt normally convenient. Unless of course you've shelved the game until SI could be bothered.

I've not seen a patch that hasn't been saved game compatible. You're talking rubbish.

Why should an in-complete game be released?

I understand the odd bug, but some of the problems are blatant to see and almost everyone who bought the game noticed them within an hour or so :confused:.

Maybe if the game isnt complete, they shouldn't charge a full price?

PLUS -when a 'new patch' comes out, you have to re-start the game to fix all the bugs - This means it stops you and you have to START AGAIN. Which isnt normally convenient. Unless of course you've shelved the game until SI could be bothered.

I wonder why Champ Manager 09 isnt out until April 09 .

Well that was a load of nonsense.

Firstly, the patches are save-game compatible, so you'll only have to re-start for data updates such as transfers and managerial changes.

Secondly, where is your evidence that 'almost everyone' spotted blatant issues? I can't even think of any 'blatant issues' with the game. A few minor irritations, yes. But nothing I would call a 'blatant issue'.

Well that was a load of nonsense.

Firstly, the patches are save-game compatible, so you'll only have to re-start for data updates such as transfers and managerial changes.

Secondly, where is your evidence that 'almost everyone' spotted blatant issues? I can't even think of any 'blatant issues' with the game. A few minor irritations, yes. But nothing I would call a 'blatant issue'.

What you said was a load of rubbish mate.

You dont get the full fixes if you use a saved game. Fact.

Blatant issues (to name a few) - Players appearing twice in tactics screen. Long GK through ball. Full backs dont close down. Game freezing constantly.

Everybody has noticed these.

mancity12 - Eidos refuse to release it and compete with the FM series. Have you seen their forums recently ? Barely 10 posts aday game related. Their forums are a shambles at best, Not many people post there in regards to the game, They stick with the otf section.

If they went head to head with SI, SI would win by the length of the straight & that's an understatement.

If CM is half decent this year, then next year I dont think what you say will be right.

This bring me only one thought - to start working on new version two or three months earlier as usually.

SI do not refine ME and other bugs after second patch usually, so I can not see the reason against starting two or three months earlier to produce new version.

Up to February they can have all community feedback + bugs collected and imho they can start to work on it this way:

1. remove the bugs (February)

2a. refine match engine

2b. add/fine tune 3D animations

2c. convert the ideas of new features into the implementation plan

3a. implement new features

3b. holidays for Miles

4. refine old features to work with new features properly

5a. refine match engine

5b. holidays for SI except PaulC

6a. TEST the game properly

6b. holidays for PaulC

7. remove new bugs from testing

8. refine match engine

9. release the demo

10. remove possible bugs with first patch

11. release the game (November)

a. b. etc. stands for parallelism.

Note: Data collecting, public relations etc. should be done parallely during working on new version independently.

oh man, it's far too early in the morning to deal with this level of ignorance...

What you said was a load of rubbish mate.

You dont get the full fixes if you use a saved game. Fact.

Blatant issues (to name a few) - Players appearing twice in tactics screen. Long GK through ball. Full backs dont close down. Game freezing constantly.

Everybody has noticed these.

You DO get the full fixes with a saved game. Please don't declare things as fact when you don't even know.

Players appearing twice on a tactics screen? That botheres you that much? It's a piffling, minor little thing that barely even matters.

The long goalkicks are annoying, but they don't happen that often.

My full backs close down plenty.

I have never once seen the game freeze.

Again, where is your evidence that 'everybody' noticed such things?

If CM is half decent this year, then next year I dont think what you say will be right.

Pfft.. CM won't even come close to FM.

oh man, it's far too early in the morning to deal with this level of ignorance...

Yeah, I don't know if I can be bothered with this kind of ill-informed tripe today.

You DO get the full fixes with a saved game. Please don't declare things as fact when you don't even know.

Players appearing twice on a tactics screen? That botheres you that much? It's a piffling, minor little thing that barely even matters.

The long goalkicks are annoying, but they don't happen that often.

My full backs close down plenty.

I have never once seen the game freeze.

Again, where is your evidence that 'everybody' noticed such things?

READ THE FORUMS for your proof. Have you not noticed yourself? Do you even have FM09?

The game freezes often just before the match starts. I have a high-end PC so its not that. I have to save every 5 minutes.

The tactic thing IS A BIG PROBLEM.

Pfft.. CM won't even come close to FM.

Premier Manager 09 isnt far off FM09 this year.

READ THE FORUMS for your proof. Have you not noticed yourself? Do you even have FM09?

The game freezes often just before the match starts. I have a high-end PC so its not that. I have to save every 5 minutes.

The tactic thing IS A BIG PROBLEM.

The forums don't prove anything. Disgruntled people make far more noise than people who are happily playing the game.

Seriously, I haven't seen the game freeze once. Just because some people on the forums have, doesn't mean lots of people have. It's not like hundreds of people are going to come on just to say that their game doesn't freeze.

How can you say it's a BIG PROBLEM? It affects nothing. It just looks a bit strange.

I cant be bothered with you.

Go back to brown nosing a mod and praising an in-complete game I have work to do.

Premier Manager 09 isnt far off FM09 this year.

Oh my word. That pretty much seals it for me. This is not an argument worth pursuing.

You DO get the full fixes with a saved game. Please don't declare things as fact when you don't even know.

Players appearing twice on a tactics screen? That botheres you that much? It's a piffling, minor little thing that barely even matters.

The long goalkicks are annoying, but they don't happen that often.

My full backs close down plenty.

I have never once seen the game freeze.

Again, where is your evidence that 'everybody' noticed such things?

May be some specific issues could arise after patch with patched saved games. Last year it was too many red cards with normal or easy tackling if I remember correctly.

To the bugs: no players appearing twice in tactics for me, closing down works for me, no freezing for me.

Long kicks? Not too often and it works for both sides, player manager and AI so it is 50:50 (no "AI needs a goal so it gets it" issue)

Agree with mike on that one with the aspect of the game freezing. More than likely it's your pc, you might have a high spec comp but do you maintain it with all the reg fixers spyware and pc opimizer????

Every pc game what gets released no matter what one always gets a patch because of bugs it's part and parcel of gaming it's been like that for years bought over 6 pc games this year and they all needed 2 patches.

One of those things people get use to

I cant be bothered with you.

Go back to brown nosing a mod and praising an in-complete game I have work to do.

Aww. Did you lose an argument?

READ THE FORUMS for your proof. Have you not noticed yourself? Do you even have FM09?

The game freezes often just before the match starts. I have a high-end PC so its not that. I have to save every 5 minutes.

The tactic thing IS A BIG PROBLEM.

Well, to my knowledge, all patches or previous FM series (including the current patch 9.1.0) are all save game compatible. Only for data updates (like transfers etc) you have to start a new game.

Game freezes every 5 minutes, well i play FM09 on a not so very good laptop but I don't have any problems, so maybe it IS your PC (or just running to much applications at the same time).

Tactics, yes difficult, different compared to FM08, but not so bad that it is unplayable.

with the exception of the authentication problems which were bad for all concerned, and have been apologised for many times (and again on the new podcast which will go live tonight), the launch has been a big success, with over 400,000 people globally currently authenticated and playing the game,

I don't think that 400.000 people around the world find it unplayable

Stephen?!?!

mancity12 has lost in what way ? he thoughts were not correct, so much so he has decided not to reply. Maybe next time his information should be more accurate before posting.

He decided not to reply because he 'couldn't be bothered'. Then he made some childish remarks about brown-nosing. I would guess his frustration got the better of him.

What you said was a load of rubbish mate.

You dont get the full fixes if you use a saved game. Fact.

Blatant issues (to name a few) - Players appearing twice in tactics screen. Long GK through ball. Full backs dont close down. Game freezing constantly.

Everybody has noticed these.

Players appearing twice in tactics screen - Ok you can have that one

Long GK through ball - Not a bug - you don't agree with how it works, and it may be changed, but it isn't a bug it's a disagreement between you and the game as to how it should work

Full Backs - see above

Game Freeze - no way of knowing whether game or PC

"Bug" seems to have become a catch-all term meaning "i think it should work this way but the game works a different way" - that isn't what a bug is!

No-one going to say anything about my "Stephen" post? No Adam and Joe fans then?

Anyways, the forums are getting a bit befuddled (to steal a word from Mike) these days and the amount of bug claims is causing real bug issues to be ignored and dismissed. The GK long ball one IMO is a bug, whereas the game freezing isn't. It's got to the point where i've noticed a few things that I think might be bugs, but I daren't say anything about them because people will either jump on the bandwagon or just dismiss them because bug seems to be taboo.

Mike - that is what I was getting at. He new his thoughts were very very wrong and he then gave up trying to back it up with more wrong ideas. It got the better of him at so early in the morning. I think this thread has run its course.

Okay. Understood. And you're right, it has.

No-one going to say anything about my "Stephen" post? No Adam and Joe fans then?

Anyways, the forums are getting a bit befuddled (to steal a word from Mike) these days and the amount of bug claims is causing real bug issues to be ignored and dismissed. The GK long ball one IMO is a bug, whereas the game freezing isn't.

To borrow a word from... myself... I was befuddled by your "Stephen" post. Sorry.

The long goalkicks, along with the ridiculous rebounds off the woodwork, high amount of mistakes and the way players always kick the ball against each other are the things that bother me most. Not sure if they all count as bugs, though. I've never had the game freeze. I have no idea why it happens to some people but it must be computer-related in at least some cases.

I'm not sure if they are bugs either, but that's the problem, no-one actually knows what a "bug" is anymore because the word has lost all meaning.

As I see it, there are three groups on the forums atm. The bug screamers, they people who will deny everything and the people who can see there are some bugs, but not nearly as many as people are making out. I consider myself in the last group, but I get lumped in with group 2, because group 1 hate to be disagreed with.

Perhaps a response from SI would be good, detailing what they consider to be bugs and providing reasons why they don't consider the others bugs.

pLEASE RESPOND SI!!!!!111111111

Bug: insect; bacteria, virus; programming error which causes a malfunction (Computers); secret listening device

Yes, many items across these forums are labeled BUG, maily because they feel it should not be in the game and theirefore it must be a bug.

Like the freezing, I don't think it is a bug, but just a combination of circumstances (Internet open, other applicaitons running, not the newest PC etc).

I do agree that there are items which could be improved, but to label them as bugs, mha no.

As I see it, there are three groups on the forums atm. The bug screamers, the people who will deny everything and the people who can see there are some bugs, but not nearly as many as people are making out. I consider myself in the last group, but I get lumped in with group 2, because group 1 hate to be disagreed with.

I am not sure in which group I am/belong but I guess in group 3.

Or, in laymans terms: Moaners, Fanboys, Normal people labelled as fanboys.

I'm not sure if they are bugs either, but that's the problem, no-one actually knows what a "bug" is anymore because the word has lost all meaning.

As I see it, there are three groups on the forums atm. The bug screamers, they people who will deny everything and the people who can see there are some bugs, but not nearly as many as people are making out. I consider myself in the last group, but I get lumped in with group 2, because group 1 hate to be disagreed with.

Perhaps a response from SI would be good, detailing what they consider to be bugs and providing reasons why they don't consider the others bugs.

I would argue that your group 2 is very, very small in comparison to the others.

Or, in laymans terms: Moaners, Fanboys, Normal people labelled as fanboys.

I didn't want to use those terms, but you know....

I would argue that your group 2 is very, very small in comparison to the others.

Oh without a doubt, tbh I only mentioned it because I get equally annoyed by someone saying "there is no GK long ball issue" as someone saying "I spilt my tea over my computer, is this a bug".

You mean SI released a product that isn't tea-spill resistant?

i WANT MY MONEY BACK

Ah well, finally got a minute at work to have a browse of the forums and what do I see?

Same crap, different day.

Same crap, different day.

I find myself saying that a lot recently, about a lot of things I think i've got the winter blues.

I find myself saying that a lot recently, about a lot of things I think i've got the winter blues.

I've got the impending redundancy blues

I've got the impending redundancy blues

You and me both. Friday is my last day.

If my plan to annoy everybody until they go off on "stress" works, you guys could come and work with me. If the people I work with are anything to go by, no experience is necessary.

READ THE FORUMS for your proof. Have you not noticed yourself? Do you even have FM09?

The game freezes often just before the match starts. I have a high-end PC so its not that. I have to save every 5 minutes.

The tactic thing IS A BIG PROBLEM.

It isn't a game freeze issue, its meerly the Match engine loading. If you click a lot then it will look like its crashing. Its a known bug with Vista / XP. Not FM09.

Wow, I could be forgiven for thinking I'd walked into a high-level conference aimed at solving world poverty from the level of intelligence in this thread

I have no idea what on earth the concept of a "complete" game is. Is it one with no bugs? Is it one that has so many brilliant features that no-one could ever conceive new and better features to add for the following year's game? Is it one that allows moaners to win every game with pub team utd?

I don't have FM09, but that hardly matters since the comments are the same for every release. A game will always have bugs. People who don't like that should find something different to entertain them. Some bugs will be more annoying than others, some bugs will only affect certain people, some "bugs" will only be considered as such by certain people. I can't remember what it says on the box of FM09 (or any other version), but unless it claims that inside is a 100% bug-free game that will provide me with non-stop excitement and no frustration at all then I would feel the urge to moan and want my money back, but it doesn't. It promises a football simulation that aims to be as realistic as possible. Some versions I enjoy out of the box, some I only enjoy when patched, some I struggle to enjoy much at all.

As a customer I will then exercise my right to either continue buying future versions of the game or not based on my opinions.

I guess some people would prefer SI to spend a whole year fixing bugs and then release the same game a year later, but with fewer bugs...but then of course they'd moan that they are paying £30 for the same game as a year ago.

You and me both. Friday is my last day.

Sorry to hear that mate. I still don't know anything for certain but know that people are definitely getting made redundant after Christmas. And I have no reason to believe that it won't be my entire office

I think we may have to take Nomis up on his offer, at least then we can spend more time on the forums

I agree with you Mike... I think the game is great!

I've played it waaay to much.. Dragging my computer, which is NOT a laptop, anywhere with me, just

to play a couple of hours with a friend(or two..)...

I also think the game reflects the real world much better now, than before..

Some minor problems yes.. But hey.. I think alot of the "bugs" ppl mention, is thing that could

easily happen in real life.. I think many of the critics are just angry kids, who lost a match..

I've seen Victor Valdez played a thru ball to Marc Overmars in real life.. If it happens too often, I can understand why ppl react.. Because it doesnt happen that often, but it DO happen.

Also.. I think its annoying as hell, when Arsenal get 101points.. But I wouldnt give that a thought if it was

me... And it could also happen in real life... (But when it happens three years in a row, it gets alittle too much..)

That issue which make players appear two places, is a bit annoying, but not a major problem..

Like they said - its a cosmetic(??) problem.. Not anything to do with the match engine..

Like I said - I think many of the critics is just a bit angry, cause things they did in FM08 doesnt work anymore... I had to change my tactics quite much in this version.. But now it reflects real life much better! :-)

I suggest that ppl who actually thinks the game is ok, or better - should continue to try to make things better by posting here - but ppl who start their own thread just to write alot of crap, should just throw the game away, and dont bother us with bulls.... :-)

FM rocks!!!

(PS: not used to write much english this quick - so please dont mind any errors... :-p)

I think we may have to take Nomis up on his offer, at least then we can spend more time on the forums

You could spend all your time on the forums and we could wage war against the idiots. There is the odd spattering of work, but it usually just emphasises the incompetence of my fellow employees e.g. i've just been told to organise promotional balloons to be provided in information packs for senior citizens, we all know how much senior citizens love their balloons

It's got to the point where my reaction to the christmas dinner invite was an email explaining that whilst I liked working here, it doesn't mean I like the people I work with and the thought of spending more than the required time with them makes me feel sick.

This has no relevance to the forums of course, but in a way I feel the same about the forums as I do about work, I just can't be bothered with being nice for nice sake anymore and you're no better thought of if you are nice.