I did a little experiment...

First of all, I know this is cheating but I was a bit bored. I downloaded a real time editor from the editor's hideout and had a little play with it. I played three games which all raised my eyebrows a little. I was playing as Liverpool (full strength), against Fulham in my first match. I used the editor to make all of the half decent goalkeepers fitness/condition levels 1%, so they couldn't play. I can't remember the name of the keeper but he got motm as we drew 0-0. I then did the same in the derby against Everton, they ended up playing Iain Dunbavin (sp) in goal, Everton won 1-0. Finally I played against Arsenal in the league cup semi-final first leg. I made all of their 'stars' 1% fitness, so they played a really poor side for the game - in which they dominated my full strength team as I struggled to draw 2-2.

Any suggestions why I STILL couldn't score against 2 ***** keepers, and struggled to beat a team of kids as Liverpool? (Don't give me the "Arsenal's kids are worldclass" bollox either.)

It's your tactics.

Arsenal are overpowered

It's your tactics

Yes, it is your tactics.

Oh that's the answer to everything! Are you all serious? It's not my tactics, if you put a basic 4-4-2 out against a team of kids, Liverpool would not draw 2-2 with them. If you have 10 plus shots against youth keepers you expect to score at least 1.

Depends how good the shots are. I've seen outfield players play in goal and keep a clean sheet for 70 minutes in the past (in real life)

It's the editor and your tactics and the fact it's December and the stars are aligned in a certain manner and you forgot to sacrifice a goat before kickoff. God forbid it could be the game?

Even when under a barrage of pressure from a team with players such as Gerrard, Fernando Torres, Van der Vaart, Adriano, Xabi Alonso, and Srna (amazy in the game)? I'm not convinced. It is feasible, but very unlikely. I'll have to play more matches like this to get any sort of conclusive results.

It doesn't matter who the players are. If they blaze shots over the bar, high and wide or just pea roll them straight at the 'keeper then even I could play in goal and keep a clean sheet. Besides, Ian Dunbavin is not a youth 'keeper (unless it's a different guy to the one I know), he's just a journeyman lower league goalkeeper and even they have good days. Burnley kept a clean sheet in real life against Chelsea the other week. Sure Brian Jensen is a good 'keeper, but he's not what you'd call world class.

It doesn't matter who the players are. If they blaze shots over the bar, high and wide or just pea roll them straight at the 'keeper then even I could play in goal and keep a clean sheet. Besides, Ian Dunbavin is not a youth 'keeper (unless it's a different guy to the one I know), he's just a journeyman lower league goalkeeper and even they have good days. Burnley kept a clean sheet in real life against Chelsea the other week. Sure Brian Jensen is a good 'keeper, but he's not what you'd call world class.

As I said, I know it is feasible. I was more concerned with the way Arsenal's youth team dominated my first team!

There's a recognised problem with Arsenal

There's a recognised problem with Arsenal

Oh right cool, that's a relief!

As I said, I know it is feasible. I was more concerned with the way Arsenal's youth team dominated my first team!

I'm sure Steve Bruce shares your pain if it's any consolation.

I'm sure Steve Bruce shares your pain if it's any consolation.

Haha, any pain that Steve Bruce feels is a great consolation

I think it has been discussed that the default tactics are pants - which is a bit of a let down really.

I agree that there should be some pre set tactics that will give you a modicum of success against poorer teams.

It most probably is your tactics as others have stated, however it isn't really an acceptable excuse/answer. I havent really touched tactics, choosing to download other peoples because i don't think i could possibly get my head around them and this is a huge shame. It feels (to me at least) that the sliders affect each other too heavily which makes me feel like i am constantly guessing.

Having said that, i am enjoying FM09 more than any other FM for ages. I just feel sorry for kids that might want to play the game or those that do not have access to these forums. It speaks volumes that the majority of the people that post on here have played FM/CM for years and to a large degree since they were kids. How on earth SI are going to build brand loyalty is beyond me.....i know for a fact i wouldnt have been able to play this version of the game when i was 9 or 10.

Imagine all the bugs that could be discovered if the testers acctually ran some experiments instead of trying to enjoy the game. Testers job is to try to break the game anyway they can and lurk out bugs. You find bugs and weaknesses in the engine by putting it to the limit and trying to break it.

In all MMO's I have beta'ed we have been "ordered" by the devs to try to break the gameengine any way we can, any way at all. Thats how they find the weaknesses. Not by testers trying to enjoy the game and have goodwill towards the devs.

I may seem very critical of SI, but thats just to keep them at their toes. The do make BY FAR the best footie manager game and have done so since 1993 (CM1 wasn't that good, but it was 2 brothers in their moms basement makeing the game alone and by themself)

Imagine all the bugs that could be discovered if the testers acctually ran some experiments instead of trying to enjoy the game. Testers job is to try to break the game anyway they can and lurk out bugs. You find bugs and weaknesses in the engine by putting it to the limit and trying to break it.

In all MMO's I have beta'ed we have been "ordered" by the devs to try to break the gameengine any way we can, any way at all. Thats how they find the weaknesses. Not by testers trying to enjoy the game and have goodwill towards the devs.

I may seem very critical of SI, but thats just to keep them at their toes. The do make BY FAR the best footie manager game and have done so since 1993 (CM1 wasn't that good, but it was 2 brothers in their moms basement makeing the game alone and by themself)

I agree with you, if I am not experimenting and only just enjoying the game, I am unable to find any major bugs. But try to play "on the verge of limits" and here we go:

1. training - are you sure, that it is training as it has to be? (possible flaw with stars of trainers, workload etc.)

2. re-training to positions - look to Ljuba82 thread (flaw)

3. conditioning (has it effect on AI team? May be not)

...and may be more and more issues. I have just summarized few topics from last month + there was/is a lot of bugs in full release and patch.

People like Ljuba82, Mitja, wwfan, Hawshiels, RT--, jajahr etc. (sorry if I have not mentioned everyone skillfull to break the game / know well the game have to be beta testers...

SI's testers know what they are doing. Just because there are bugs doesn't mean that

a) testers should easily have found them (often in testing to the limits you actually miss some bugs that come about through normal play).

b) the bugs weren't flagged up by the testers.

It's well over-simplistic to think that because a bug exists it wans't know about. It is impossible to fix all bugs so software gets released with some known bugs in it. Such is life. If you prefer SI could spend forever trying to fix every bug, never release the game, go bankrupt and leave no game for anyone to play.

It's not his tactics...

It's the game!

If a player has a fitness percentage of 1% then he would be prone to injury... He wouldn't be a 1/4 of how good he usually plays... he wouldn't be able to move Etc

And he said that he played a full strength liverpool side against them... It wouldnt be a problem if it was somebody like Huddersfield but com'on it's Liverpool!

SI's testers know what they are doing. Just because there are bugs doesn't mean that

a) testers should easily have found them (often in testing to the limits you actually miss some bugs that come about through normal play).

b) the bugs weren't flagged up by the testers.

It's well over-simplistic to think that because a bug exists it wans't know about. It is impossible to fix all bugs so software gets released with some known bugs in it. Such is life. If you prefer SI could spend forever trying to fix every bug, never release the game, go bankrupt and leave no game for anyone to play.

Well said. Another point relevant here is that 'tweaking' engine bugs reported by testers can (whilst solving the reported bug) have knock on consequences which then obviously owuld need to be newly 'discovered'.

It's not his tactics...

It's the game!

If a player has a fitness percentage of 1% then he would be prone to injury... He wouldn't be a 1/4 of how good he usually plays... he wouldn't be able to move Etc

And he said that he played a full strength liverpool side against them... It wouldnt be a problem if it was somebody like Huddersfield but com'on it's Liverpool!

if you read it correctly he made the star players on 1% and then they played fully fit youngsters and he drew with them

if you read it correctly he made the star players on 1% and then they played fully fit youngsters and he drew with them

Ohhhhh!

Sorry

Well it's probs your tactic's lol

Liverpool lost to barnsley lost year, there's a chance they can lose to a team of kids on a bad day.

SI's testers know what they are doing. Just because there are bugs doesn't mean that

a) testers should easily have found them (often in testing to the limits you actually miss some bugs that come about through normal play).

b) the bugs weren't flagged up by the testers.

It's well over-simplistic to think that because a bug exists it wans't know about. It is impossible to fix all bugs so software gets released with some known bugs in it. Such is life. If you prefer SI could spend forever trying to fix every bug, never release the game, go bankrupt and leave no game for anyone to play.

Well I can see that to some extent but it's hard to see how anyone could have missed the long shots, injuries and keeper straight to striker "bugs" - and yes they all are bugs.

It seems strange to me that these issues were being raised on this forum within hours of the demo's release and yet Beta testers didn't find them at all.

Simply don't believe it.

And where is the evidence that Beta testers didn't find these "bugs"?

I have to say this is a very interesting post.

I am playing as manchester united and have that no matter how many times you tweak trainings or tactics the game always ends in a damn draw, doesn't matter who you are playing. The whole 'o its your tactics' is instant answer to everything apparently? Well i am in February of the first season have had time to get used to the game, play around with formations, trainings and tactics and little seems to change.

It is clear, as others have pointed out, there is a serious problem with Arsenal which is annoying to say the least as no matter what you do to try an win a game against them you can't. I have tried this in my own experiment replaying a match against Arsenal about 7/8 times and never managing to win. I eventually came to conclusion that Arsenal have been set to god mode and settled for a 3-2 loss.

So many of my matches end in draws, whether it be late equalisers (usually the opposing team, rarely me) or, despite setting tactics and formations set for attacking gameplay not being able to score a winning goal in 30-40 minutes. It happens so regularly its just becomes tiresome. Rooney and Tevez in particular but also Berbatov to a slightly lesser extent apparently don't know how to score or even put one on target consistently? I created new training schedules for everyone with theirs putting a lot of emphasize on shooting to no avail. Constant blasting it over the bar, straight to the keeper, wide, so much for world class strikers.

I have played this since i was 10 and am now 20, and although there are a lot of things i like about the game and find very refreshing against 07 and 08, there are some things that are just ridiculous on it. As a previous poster mentioned it would be very hard to pick up if i was 10 again. I know there are going to be faults with every game, its just the FM is so involving and seems more important than other games so when there are problems which don't seem to have an explanation or are just damn annoying it just matter so much more. It can't just be the usual 'o its tactics' surely, especially considering the number of posters who have mentioned it.

And where is the evidence that Beta testers didn't find these "bugs"?

eerrrr.......the evidence would be that they are still in the game! Are you suggesting that SI knowingly sold the game full of obvious bugs?? Surely not !!!

The match engine is seriously flawed, they(SI) spent so much time trying to perfect the 3-d match engine, that playing the game got overlooked that was why the demo was so late in being released. No body has the "balls" to admit this, therefore, as no liability has been accepted it is YOUR FAULT! or your tactics it just depends on who your talking to.

eerrrr.......the evidence would be that they are still in the game! Are you suggesting that SI knowingly sold the game full of obvious bugs?? Surely not !!!

Every software company releases software with known bugs in ("full of" is going totally over the top), otherwise, as I said, the software woould just never be released. Some software (like the company I work for) is even released with a list of known bugs included.

eerrrr.......the evidence would be that they are still in the game! Are you suggesting that SI knowingly sold the game full of obvious bugs?? Surely not !!!

There is no evidence to suggest that the testers never found the bugs! As was mentioned in a previous post, the bugs may have been reported but SI never had time to fix all the issues before release! Also, fixing one bug may create another along the way!

On a related note has anyone else seen the AI bring on injured players?

I played Liverpool and was winning 2-0 so imagine my surprise when Steven Gerard came on even though he was 'receiving treatment for damaged ligaments' his condition was 63%, he then went on to score and play a 7.3 as a sub.

Its happened before as well, anyone else seen this?

First of all, I know this is cheating but I was a bit bored. I downloaded a real time editor from the editor's hideout and had a little play with it. I played three games which all raised my eyebrows a little. I was playing as Liverpool (full strength), against Fulham in my first match. I used the editor to make all of the half decent goalkeepers fitness/condition levels 1%, so they couldn't play. I can't remember the name of the keeper but he got motm as we drew 0-0. I then did the same in the derby against Everton, they ended up playing Iain Dunbavin (sp) in goal, Everton won 1-0. Finally I played against Arsenal in the league cup semi-final first leg. I made all of their 'stars' 1% fitness, so they played a really poor side for the game - in which they dominated my full strength team as I struggled to draw 2-2.

Any suggestions why I STILL couldn't score against 2 ***** keepers, and struggled to beat a team of kids as Liverpool? (Don't give me the "Arsenal's kids are worldclass" bollox either.)

Please don't swear. Thanks.

Simple fact is mate, Liverpool are pants.

It's not my tactics, if you put a basic 4-4-2 out against a team of kids, Liverpool would not draw 2-2 with them.

No?

Really?

Is that why Liverpool sweep all before them year in, year out?

eerrrr.......the evidence would be that they are still in the game! Are you suggesting that SI knowingly sold the game full of obvious bugs?? Surely not !!!

YES! Bugs that, if repaired, would enhance other, minor bugs, causing certain mayhem, so one bug Vs 10 i think i would take the first option.

Please don't swear. Thanks.

I'd say ban him for a month, there are children here (JK)

Is Marc Vaughan still the lead programmer for FM btw?

Rolly1988, I'm going to deconstruct your post a bit; please accept my focus as trying to suggest thoughts which may help you get over the hump you've described rather than to attack or criticise you.

no matter how many times you tweak trainings or tactics the game always ends in a damn draw

Counter-proof: I have won three matches in a row.

The whole 'o its your tactics' is instant answer to everything apparently?

Agree with you here; "its your tactics" is such a simplistic knee-jerk answer that its almost guaranteed to be wrong.

I have tried this in my own experiment replaying a match against Arsenal about 7/8 times and never managing to win. I eventually came to conclusion that Arsenal have been set to god mode and settled for a 3-2 loss.

The "replay a given match" experiment is fatally flawed because it ignores *context*. If your players have not yet gelled, and theirs have ... if your players are complacent because you've been over-praising them in recent team-talks ... if your players are unhappy because of some recent losses ... if three of their top players are "in great form" and your top strikers are "in a slump" ... there are so many infinite ways that a *single match* can have factors in play that push it one way or the other beyond just "your tactics".

In my experience, mental attributes, team-talks and psychological warfare have become exceptionally important in the past several versions, especially at the highest levels. I suggest you take a look at "Communication and Psychological Warfare" over in T&TT and see if there's anything there that helps.

So many of my matches end in draws, whether it be late equalisers (usually the opposing team, rarely me)

That does sound like problems with your "defend a lead" tactic, to me. You do start shading more defensive around the 70th minute, limiting players forward on corner kicks, limiting forward runs by your fullbacks, etc, don't you?

or despite setting tactics and formations set for attacking gameplay not being able to score a winning goal in 30-40 minutes. It happens so regularly its just becomes tiresome. Rooney and Tevez in particular but also Berbatov to a slightly lesser extent apparently don't know how to score or even put one on target consistently?

That also sounds like a tactical problem. In FM'08 especially it was the case that it was fairly easy to create a tactic that piled on a bzillion half-chances but rarely ever resulted in a good clean chance. In FM'09, it feels to me like "good clean chance" results in a goal often, and "half-chance" results in a goal almost-never. So, if your tactic is generating numerous half-chances, it isn't doing you much good.

I created new training schedules for everyone with theirs putting a lot of emphasize on shooting to no avail.

See above - the problem isn't their shooting. Its the tactical and passing build-up. Off the Ball movement. Decisions. Anticipation. Team Work. Passing. Crossing. First Touch. Etc. Over-emphasizing shooting is not serving you, its exacerbating the problem.

As a previous poster mentioned it would be very hard to pick up if i was 10 again.

Totally agree with you here .. and of course, I'm expecting a bit of tuning in the match engine for the next patch, just like everybody else is.

There is no evidence to suggest that the testers never found the bugs! As was mentioned in a previous post, the bugs may have been reported but SI never had time to fix all the issues before release! Also, fixing one bug may create another along the way!

Agreed...but if it soooo complicated to fix such bugs why did SI manage to fix the injury bug with a patch on the day of release...which was only two weeks after the release of the demo?

Are you trying to suggest that testers - who presumably test the game for several weeks - found a bug as devestating to the playability as the injury bug, reported it but no-one did anything until AFTER the demo was released??

Seems like a rather stupid chain of events to me. As soon as a tester raises an issue the first question will always be "how hard is it to fix?"...if the answer is "we can sort it in a fortnight" then why wouldn't you?

The only other possible explanation is that the BETA testing is started so close to the pre-agreed relase date that nothing can be fixed in time...which means the whole process is, therefore, pointless.

The injury bug was because they compared how many injuries happened against stats from physioroom.com and miscalculated. Paul has held his hand up and said that was his call and it was a mistake - it was not a fault of the testers.

The only other game breaking bug imo is the Serie C bug, which shouldn't have been missed in testing, but given the obscurity of the league can see how it might have slipped through the net - especially as some people can get past it.

It's the tactics!

The injury bug was because they compared how many injuries happened against stats from physioroom.com and miscalculated. Paul has held his hand up and said that was his call and it was a mistake - it was not a fault of the testers.

The only other game breaking bug imo is the Serie C bug, which shouldn't have been missed in testing, but given the obscurity of the league can see how it might have slipped through the net - especially as some people can get past it.

CaptainPlanet...fair enough but try and imagine you were a tester for the game. Wouldn't you have said "hang on gaffer there seems to be LOADS of injuries" frankly I can't even put a first 11 out after four games.....I find it hard to understand how they could have even tested the game for a full season since many people couldn't play more than six games before they had to restart the game entirely.

No amount of someone saying "but I've ckecked on a website and I think it's normal" would have convinced me it didn't make the game unplayable.

In fact that may explain why they seem to have either missed (or ignored depending on who you believe) the long shots bug, the keeper-straight-to-striker-who scores bug, the wingers who seem able to beat everyone for pace regardless of their eh pace!!! bug.......perhaps they never got to play more than half a dozen games in succession because of all the injuries.