Its NOT your tactics

Well it is .. but not really.

Part of the problem with FM and the difficulties people have in getting a modicum of success isn't down to your tactics necessarilly.

Its down to the tactics that the AI employs .. they are too good.

The AI manager determines what he wants his team to do - and can pick the perfect tactic for the job.

He's setting out to defend and frustrate your team when your a heavy favourite at home .. yep .. this is the tactic for the job and you end up getting stone-walled as you try and find a way through .. Now you got a lucky goal and the AI manager needs to go on the attack? Yep ... here we go ... a ready made attacking tactic that will rip the best teams in the world apart .. REALLY need a goal ... ok, 424 it is then.

Now there may be a tactical approach to get around these things - but your settings need to be spot on. I often find it amazing how my best attacking tactic which works great against the opposition when they are in a certain defensive setup proves never to be good enough to impose MY game on the opposition when they switch to an attacking setup - even if I'm Man U and they are a mid-table championship side and we're playing in the FA Cup.

They go attacking - you HAVE to go defensive despite the gulf in class between the teams because THEIR attacking tactic is "perfect" and obviously better than yours and so they will win out in a slugging match .. everytime.

It amazes me when I see bottom of the table teams with rookie managers suddenly finding the perfect tactical setup when they need a goal against your team. Hold on - if their manager / tactics were SO good - why are they bottom of the league? Well - its because they are playing against other AI teams who also have "perfect" tactical set ups engineered through 10s of 1000s of hours of testing and optimisation games ran in SI towers.

So its NOT your tactics where the problem lies .. Its the AI tactics are TOO good at times .. unrealistically so in the majority of cases. So relax. Your not a "n00b" or "crap" .. you just don't have the benefit of all the testing the AI managers are privvy too ..

nice rant, impressive and much better than all the other moans

i agree completely cos that have to keep changing around to win games and tha ai are very good

i had thought of that, amazing how the game can just change so quickly, even though it can happen in reality, bit of a scunner when its going great then kaplam, the team loses all capabilities to play against a suddenly all superior team, especially when they are mince

Scunner? Kaplam? Mince? Whaaa..?

The AI 4-2-4 wonder-tactic has always been a stupid addition to the game.

In the most part it is counterable, but it's a poor "feature".

The AI 4-2-4 wonder-tactic has always been a stupid addition to the game.

In the most part it is counterable, but it's a poor "feature".

I can honestly say, I've never had any trouble with the 4-2-4 in '09. I rarely even bother reacting to it, beyond maybe lowering the tempo and increasing time wasting - which I do anyway if it's late on in the game and I'm happy with the score regardless of the opposition's tactics. That's not to say I've never conceeded late goals, I have done, but this happens IRL, and they've never seem to come from the AI switching to a "wonder tactic". I certainly don't notice a sudden increase in the number of chances or anything when they do switch to the 4-2-4.

Oh I've had no problem with it in 09 either, other than the fact that it is the game to begin with.

It's the games way of not making you rest on your laurels, it's a design feature so you don't just use the same pre-set tactic for 90 minutes whilst you wander off to get a cup of tea. It's unrealistic, and it's poorly implemented and it's the answer to a question that nobody asked.

I never react to the AI's 4-2-4. To be honest, I regularly score against it.

Oh I've had no problem with it in 09 either, other than the fact that it is the game to begin with.

It's the games way of not making you rest on your laurels, it's a design feature so you don't just use the same pre-set tactic for 90 minutes whilst you wander off to get a cup of tea. It's unrealistic, and it's poorly implemented and it's the answer to a question that nobody asked.

Except you don't need to change tactics. I usually make some minor tweaks as I said, but sometimes I forget, and the 4-2-4 still doesn't seem to do much.

Except you don't need to change tactics.

Maybe you don't, but many other people do.

And i'm not saying it's an "I win" button for the AI. I'm saying it's an unrealistic feature.

Well it is .. but not really.

Part of the problem with FM and the difficulties people have in getting a modicum of success isn't down to your tactics necessarilly.

Its down to the tactics that the AI employs .. they are too good.

The AI manager determines what he wants his team to do - and can pick the perfect tactic for the job.

He's setting out to defend and frustrate your team when your a heavy favourite at home .. yep .. this is the tactic for the job and you end up getting stone-walled as you try and find a way through .. Now you got a lucky goal and the AI manager needs to go on the attack? Yep ... here we go ... a ready made attacking tactic that will rip the best teams in the world apart .. REALLY need a goal ... ok, 424 it is then.

Now there may be a tactical approach to get around these things - but your settings need to be spot on. I often find it amazing how my best attacking tactic which works great against the opposition when they are in a certain defensive setup proves never to be good enough to impose MY game on the opposition when they switch to an attacking setup - even if I'm Man U and they are a mid-table championship side and we're playing in the FA Cup.

They go attacking - you HAVE to go defensive despite the gulf in class between the teams because THEIR attacking tactic is "perfect" and obviously better than yours and so they will win out in a slugging match .. everytime.

It amazes me when I see bottom of the table teams with rookie managers suddenly finding the perfect tactical setup when they need a goal against your team. Hold on - if their manager / tactics were SO good - why are they bottom of the league? Well - its because they are playing against other AI teams who also have "perfect" tactical set ups engineered through 10s of 1000s of hours of testing and optimisation games ran in SI towers.

So its NOT your tactics where the problem lies .. Its the AI tactics are TOO good at times .. unrealistically so in the majority of cases. So relax. Your not a "n00b" or "crap" .. you just don't have the benefit of all the testing the AI managers are privvy too ..

Just copy the AI tactic and you will be OK.

Maybe you don't, but many other people do.

And i'm not saying it's an "I win" button for the AI. I'm saying it's an unrealistic feature.

All it really amounts to is the AI pushing its wingers further forward. That in itself, is not wholly unrealistic. I just don't understand why it can't just say "Team A is going for a more attacking approach" or something like that because having a set 4-2-4 formation for chasing games in unrealistic.

I don't think that the 4-2-4 is particularly unrealistic. When a team is chasing an equaliser or a winner then yes they do push players forward and try to nick a goal IRL. Plus I have found that it's not really that successful if you react to it!

Maybe you don't, but many other people do.

And i'm not saying it's an "I win" button for the AI. I'm saying it's an unrealistic feature.

Why is it unrealistic? If a team is losing IRL, then they will throw people forwards

It's the idea of a set 4-2-4 formation that all teams use that is unrealistic. Basically, teams will always go attacking to chase games, but they won't all go to an exact 4-2-4 formation.

It's the idea of a set 4-2-4 formation that all teams use that is unrealistic. Basically, teams will always go attacking to chase games, but they won't all go to an exact 4-2-4 formation.

well they are'nt all the same so why should they all go to an exact 4-2-4 formation?

well they are'nt all the same so why should they all go to an exact 4-2-4 formation?

That is my exact point.

It's poor because every team does the same thing.

well they are'nt all the same so why should they all go to an exact 4-2-4 formation?

Haven't you just answered your own question?

It's poor because every team does the same thing.

That is certainly the sentence that best sums it up.

It's the idea of a set 4-2-4 formation that all teams use that is unrealistic. Basically, teams will always go attacking to chase games, but they won't all go to an exact 4-2-4 formation.

I agree, there are many formations and many varients on 'all out attack'. The game is way too pre-occupied with a rigid 4-2-4 when chasing the game. How about 3-4-3 when the centre-back is thrown forward? etc, etc, etc. Would be nice to see variation.

All the clubs, in all the leagues, in all the world have exactly the same secret "plan B" for the last 5 minutes of any match they are losing?

I smell a conspiracy.

And i'm not saying it's an "I win" button for the AI. I'm saying it's an unrealistic feature.

I don't think that it's an unrealistic feature, but I do think it's been implemented in an unrealistic manner.

Many teams revert to attacking formations in order tog et something from a game, but not all teams and not always the same tactic. Basically the feature is realistic, but it needs more variation and a more realistic approach to the team using it.

I hardly think that the AI are tactical super geniuses...

The thing is that the game is meant to be challenging for all, and the AI are out to win their matches. 4-2-4 is fairly logical if you think about it, it's just them trying to score, and it's completely counterable!

Yes, it is counterable. But it isn't realistic for every team in the world to go to the exact same formation when chasing a game.

I just had a thought.

Imagine if SI agreed and got rid of 4-2-4 and made it so that different teams used a variety of different tactics when losing a match. There'd be uproar because people would never know what to expect!

I just had a thought.

Imagine if SI agreed and got rid of 4-2-4 and made it so that different teams used a variety of different tactics when losing a match. There'd be uproar because people would never know what to expect!

True! But more realistic...

Yes, it is counterable. But it isn't realistic for every team in the world to go to the exact same formation when chasing a game.

They don't always use 4-2-4...

4-2-4 isn't an issue in 09 .. many times I've seen the AI switch to it and like others, I just don't react to it .. my def tactic is "ok" and so don't need to do anything drastic .. looks like SI sorted it out from 08 as it was just way too good in that version.

But, why I started this thread, the other general types of tactics that the AI employs are what are getting people frustrated.

I don't have a problem if a Sir Alex or Wenger was consistanly pulling out the "perfect" defense or "perfect" attacking tactic against my teams at the exact right time .. thats acceptable and understandable .. but not Billy Boncer the Bodacious Bognor Boss time after time after time (specifically the attacking) yet this is where peoples frustrations are coming from.

Your playing at home .. your top, their bottom .. your 2-0 up at half-time .. you know .. you just KNOW .. the AI team is going to come out in the 2nd half and be a completely different team to what they were in the first half. They are suddenly going to create chance after chance ... they are suddenly going to snuff out every attack you make .. So you have to completely change your tactical set up.

Yes, tweak here .. tweak there .. but to completely change your setup when 2-0 up at home against the bottom of the league team is not football. Reason being?

If Stoke City were 2-0 down at Old Trafford and came out in the 2nd half with all guns blazing - the score will end up 5 or 6-0 by the end and Man U wouldn't have made any major changes to their game .. they'd play the same way, with the same attacking intent but with the odd tweak here or there .. and they'd get 4 more because their players are just better than Stokes right across the board and Stoke would be far more open at the back. Might be different if its Man U vs Chelsea .. but not Stoke (sorry Stoke fans!)

In FM? Your in the same situation - you HAVE go defensive and counter otherwise the game will be 2-2 in next to no-time if their strikers can take their chances (when Stoke would, usually, then go back to their defensive setup - why when they can attack so good??).

Certainly, the AI Attacking tactics are too good (its not the AI cheating!) - they have a perfect set up for what they want to achieve .. If we're up against a world class manager in every game - ok, you can accept it .. but not vs every team you come up against with crap managers / rookies. A Man Utd of this world have the players in their team to impose THEIR game on the opposition .. ok, it doesn't mean Man Utd should or will win everygame .. but in FM, due to the set tactical set-ups the AI has its disposal .. thats nigh on impossible and you have to do things that Man Utd rarely do - set up things totally defensive and play on the counter. Yes, get this right and you should still win ... but it ultimately just means the same predictable process game after game.

"Throwing people forwards" when a team is down is too simplistic. If it was as easy as that then we might as well go back to the days of playing 2-2-6 formations .. for a team to completely change its set up and mentality from one extreme to another in the course of 90 minutes is rare. For a poor team to do it against a good team is rarer still. Players in real life aren't robots .. "flick a switch to attack, press a knob to defend" .. yes, maybe knock an extra notch or two on mentality .. tell the odd player to get forward more (from 2 out of 10 attacks to 4 out of 10) .. and HOPE to grab a goal .. but not from all-out-defence to all-out-attack as if by magic and nail it everyime when they come out in the 2nd half .. (maybe last 10 mins when only ONE goal down .. ) ..

Stoke know that going all out attack vs Man Utd at Old Trafford is suicidal - so they don't do it IRL whether the score is 0-0, 1-0, 2-0 or 3 .. Yet in FM .. every team in every match when down does it and so there is more chance they turn the game around and doing it with the "perfect" tactical set up causes untold amounts of frustration for people.

A player having a poor game is a player having a poor game regardless of the tactical setup .. too many AI players go from a 5 rating to a 7+ rating due to a change of tactics at half-time .. No .. In real life, players / managers aren't robots .. but sadly, in FM, thats what your playing against.

They don't always use 4-2-4...

Yes they do.

Players in real life aren't robots .. "flick a switch to attack, press a knob to defend" ..

Hehe, you said knob...*giggles*

Good post, and all too true. But I think this is just as much the over-power of half-time teamtalks as well as tactics.

Yes, tweak here .. tweak there .. but to completely change your setup when 2-0 up at home against the bottom of the league team is not football.

I refuse to even consider tweaking tactics, mid game or afterwards. I find one that semi works and stick with it until I suceed or get sacked, I just don't have time and can't be bothered to tweak constantly.

Well correct me if i'm wrong but this is a simulator... and thus is supposed to be as accurate to the real thing as possible and you can ask every manager in the world, they will change their tactics for every single match. Obviously the core tactics stay the same like play the ball to a certain player, wingers make runs n all that but they change their tactics to accomodate dangers in the opposition.

I always find that if you Mark, close down, tackle hard and show on to weaker foot all the players in forward and midfield positions you get far more attacks and conceed much less. It doesn't stop the scoring and it doesn't mean you'll always win but it does help alot.

I'm sick to death of the "it's supposed to be a simulator" or "it's supposed to be realistic" comments. Such a pointless argument, no offence to anyone using it, but it holds no weight whatsoever IMO. FM is a game and should be fun, realistic or not, it has to be fun. There are many realistic aspects of football management that could be added to the game and make it a true simulation, but if they were added they would ruin the game.

The "fun" part always reminds me of that Budweiser advert where they say "tired of boring 0-0 draws? How about extra time Multi-ball!" And they launch like 10 balls onto the field.

That would be awesome.

what people fail to realise is that having just one tactic annd sticking it just isn't going to work! I mean really, learn to play some people please. It is or should be pretty damn obvious to some people that if half way through a game your getting outplayed or they are defending too much then change your formation. Yes, thats change your formation through the game. Some people have not grapsed that concept yet but moan about the AI doing it all the time. They do it for a reason, that reason being they are having no luck with their current formation or they want to hard counter your formation.

You can be nowhere near as succesful against certain teams and formations if your one of these 'lol i have a great formationz guyz it totally like creatz many chancez in this last match i played, but i haz problems playing against 4-3-3 formation with it But damn im still gonna use it against teams weilding such formations and cross my fingers!!!!'

Jeez.

My rant over.

TL;DR version:

It IS your tactics.

It would be great to be able to watch AI teams play each other in detail and see how they set up their individual instructions/mentality etc. IRL you can watch a match and see all the players so why not in the game?

This would give people an insight into how the AI set ups and we could learn a lot about the game.

You can watch the AI games if you want, just click the V in the fixtures list and it should change to attend. I don't think we should be able to view their tactics though, are AI tactics not just preset tactics anyway?

I don't think the I can create "perfect" tactics for what they want to do, simply because they won't give players individual instructions based on their skill. Afaik, the AI just have a couple of standard formations and tactics that are good, but far from perfect. For example, when they only have midfielders with low tackling and stamina, they won't be very effective when the AI wants them to close down the opposition.

Of course, I could be wrong and the AI does integrate individual skill in it's tactics, but that would require some serious coding, I think.

^^

I think the AI just uses the preset tactics that are available to us.

You can watch the AI games if you want, just click the V in the fixtures list and it should change to attend. I don't think we should be able to view their tactics though, are AI tactics not just preset tactics anyway?

Why not see their tactics in-depth though? IRL you can see what tactics Arsenal or Man U are using to counter Chelsea for example?

The AI do not just use preset tactics, this has been proven.

The posts by Abramovich on the AI manager in FM07 indicates a global mentality approach with perhaps a forward on an attacking mentality, closing down on an individual basis, then minor changes such as free roles, tick counter attack etc.

I also remember that Neville did not like to go forward, and forward runs were on mixed rather than often like the other FB, so they probably do adjust tactics to suit certain players.

I don't really have a problem countering the AI tactics, my tactic seems to work against most systems - which is lucky because it didn't really suit my team and I made it up on the spot with little tweaking. The problem I have with FM is the speed with which the AI can change their tactics. If the likes of you or I want to switch our formations around, we have to enter the tactics screen and submit our tactics, then wait for them to be implemented. Just for interest's value I played someone like Chelsea and watched their formation when the highlights weren't showing. As they conceded goals and then scored in return, as the time ticked down to their defeat, they kept changing tactics between their normal formation and a weird semi-Christmas tree formation. If they scored, they instantly flicked to the Christmas tree. Then if they looked better, they returned to normal. As I scored a late goal they went to 4-2-4. They did all this instantly, and it could've posed me some problems if I'd had specific man marking on because they threw players all over the place to fit the tactics. They never had to wait to adjust their formations, they changed instantly after goals and such. If they could find a good formation for defeating you it'd be terrible, since the AI has the ability to change their tactics instantly when it;s not working for them, and we have to wait several minutes. To me, that's more of a problem than the AI knowing how to counter you.

In soviet russia, AI counters you!

Have you ever tryed using the 4-2-4 tactic i did when i was 3-0 down 20 mins left with Preston came back i drew 3-3

Why not see their tactics in-depth though? IRL you can see what tactics Arsenal or Man U are using to counter Chelsea for example?

NO you can't, you can guess and try and work out what tactics they are using, but you have no definate idea what their actual tactics are i.e. what the manager has told each specific player about their role.

The main problem with FM Match engine is that attributes don't seem to matter that much. IRL Stoke can't play a quick passing game like Arsenal or Man U because the technical skills of their players aren't good enough, but in FM - no problem. In FM the skills seem relative while IRL they are absolute. As a result, Stoke attempting to push people forward and playing a passing game will lose the ball and open themselves to a quick counterattack (that's IRL). In FM, motivated players will see increase to their attributes and will play like Utd (opening well, passing the ball well etc) and create chances. This needs to be addressed.

Why not see their tactics in-depth though? IRL you can see what tactics Arsenal or Man U are using to counter Chelsea for example?

The AI do not just use preset tactics, this has been proven.

Thats the craziest thing Ive heard in a long time. How do you see what tactics Arsenal or Man U are using/

BY WATCHING THE GAME.

Why not see their tactics in-depth though? IRL you can see what tactics Arsenal or Man U are using to counter Chelsea for example?

The AI do not just use preset tactics, this has been proven.

If You have you have FM07, you can. You won't believe how simple and weird the AI's tactics.

You can watch the AI games if you want, just click the V in the fixtures list and it should change to attend. I don't think we should be able to view their tactics though, are AI tactics not just preset tactics anyway?

NO you can't, you can guess and try and work out what tactics they are using, but you have no definate idea what their actual tactics are i.e. what the manager has told each specific player about their role.

I personally would like the option to see the AI's tactics. I think the AI has the advantage of knowing ours so we should know theirs!