Are the tactics any clearer on FM09?

There's been a lot of discussion on this forum recently about various problems that in my opinion usually come down to the persons tactics. Things like:

- Strikers not scoring.

- Too many long shots.

- Good old superkeepers.

- Opposition players scoring with few chances compared to the human player who has 20 shots but no goals.

There are many other similar complaints, all of which will be down to tactics. No arguments here please, too many people in the tactics forum (and other places) have managed to avoid the above problems and others like them.

The question is, is it too difficult for most people to be able to recognise why their tactics are not working and therefore be able to fix the problems?

Throughout FM08 there were complaints that the tactical side of the game had become too difficult. Despite creating plenty of successful tactics myself, I could clearly see where these complaints were coming from, sometimes in '08 it felt a bit hit and miss and you could feel like you'd accidentally stumbled on what works rather than analysing what's happening and improving your tactic logically. This is why I was one of the people actively campaigning for the Assistant Feedback addition. I was delighted to see this in FM09, but having used it to some extent I can't say I've found it that useful to be honest, it certainly hasn't helped me discover why top class strikers play so poorly and rarely score.

My frustration comes from the fact that I've always been able to create my own successful tactics in previous FM games, particularly on my first save which is always with a big team so that I can get to grips with the game. For the first time in ages I've had to download a tactic so that I can get back to enjoying the game, which for me is disappointing.

So the question is, is the tactics module any more transparent in FM09? When I first watched the 3D I thought it was and delighted in recognising weaknesses in my tactic using the 3D and then correcting them. But these corrections have always been short lived to the point that I now can't improve any more using all the tools given to me by the game.

Your thoughts?

And please don't use this thread as an excuse to slag off the game, I want sensible discussions about whether the tactics have actually improved in terms of transparency, and if not, ideas on what should be done about it in the future.

Although I'm enjoying the game, doing well and generally rate FM09 as the best FM yet, I nevertheless would agree with the assertion that tactics are bit overwhelming and unclear.

there is no way apart from watching highlights of clearly tracking the movement of your players throughout a match. this makes it very hard work seeing how and where you players stuck to your instructions; and if they were the right ones.

the tactics end of the game isnt bad, really it isnt. right now there are clearly balance issues with teams playing like brazil all the time, long shots, poor LL players running past your defense etc. that give the impression it is your tactics that are ineffective.

no doubt si are more than aware of this, as they have almost always managed to fix these balance issues in final patches gone by.

I think the Ass Man help is great, it's a definite step in the right direction. Along with the scout feedback for next opposition, the tips are all there really - if you choose to listen to them. Perhaps staff quality is a factor also.

I've been struggling with my inaugural Premiership season with the Blades, and when I listened to my scout (play an anchorman, so I swapped from 4-4-2 to 4-1-4-1) and my ass man (on setting opposition instructions), I beat West Brom 4-3... I'd been struggling to score all season until then.

I'd say there's still plenty of scope for improvement, but realistically, the game should be a challenge.

Les Girondins makes a lot of good posts around this forum and I agree with his one in this thread. If I could ask one thing of him, it would be to please, please, please stop using the term 'fanboy' so often! Please? (I know you didn't use it in this one. )

Strikers not scoring is definitely an issue - quality attackers should play better without setting up specific tactics just to get them scoring.

And yes, understanding where and why you went wrong with tactics in other cases is very, very difficult. Guesswork, in fact, no more. You just pray to be lucky.

The tactics are in no way at all inuitive. And the provided game manual does very little to help clarify.

The strange thing is that I'm also enjoying every other part of the game, but find it quite frustrating that there seems to have been absolutely no improvement in terms of helping the user pinpoint problems with their tactics and in turn help them improve their own tactics.

I'm not expecting it to be in any way easy, but players should be able to use the tools given to them in the game to improve their tactics (as long as they're willing to put the effort in) and not need the tactics forum of a website to help them. I don't feel this is currently very possible, the tactics still feel very 'trial and error' to me.

I agree with all of your post chopper. This is the first FM where I feel lost in tactics. Like you, I could create good tactics on 08. In 09 I cannot get my strikers to score, I'm watching the game trying to figure it out, I listen to my AM but I still cannot get it right.

The AM report is a step in the right direction but it doesn't really help you that much. When I pictured this feature, I expected to have advice on how to fix certain things. Instead, your AM tells you the problem and expects you to just know how to fix it.

I think the assistant manager's advice was meant to help us. Problem is, I don't seem to ever agree with him!

I think the Ass Man help is great, it's a definite step in the right direction. Along with the scout feedback for next opposition, the tips are all there really - if you choose to listen to them. Perhaps staff quality is a factor also.

This is different to my experience so far (I'm quite willing ot accept that the problem's just with me), I've not really found any useful information at all from my Ass Man. I seem to find it very difficult to get players to even enter the opposition area, let alone score from inside it.

As I said, my frustration stems from the fact that I've always been able to use the tools provided with the game to create tactics that work the way I want them to (whether they're successful or not). I was hoping '09 would improve this area so that more people would be able to do this, but to me it seems to have gone backwards.

I'm holding off total match engine judgement till patch number 2.

If the majority of the annoying bugs are still there, you'll all be hearing from me... very loudly.

The AM report is a step in the right direction but it doesn't really help you that much. When I pictured this feature, I expected to have advice on how to fix certain things. Instead, your AM tells you the problem and expects you to just know how to fix it.

I think this is what I was expecting as well, I was hoping for this to be an option so that those who wanted tips on what to do about the problems could get them if they wanted them, and those who didn't could avoid them.

At the moment problems are being pointed out, particularly the fact that my players always seem to be having too many long shots, but for the life of me I can't seem to get the players to stop doing this. In FM08 I would have known exactly which sliders to adjust to ensure that my players had options and didn't feel the need to shoot all of the time. But in '09 I can't seem to figure it out.

I like the assistant manager "recommended buys" advice from the team report screen.

I haven't actually noticed that yet, but it's something I'll be looking out for tonight.

Well I say i like it, but it's bugged, because he recommends players that you can buy/sign that are interested in coming to your club, but they don't show on a normal player search. And as I found with my lower league team, his recommendations are significantly better.

Agreed......I've noticed it takes a lot longer to play the game, the Tactics seem very delicate with regard to getting the balance right, it would also help if there was a faint Team Tactic overlay when your setting individual instructions....

Took me nearly 3 hours to play 3 friendlies, replace backroom staff and assess my players etc etc....

....But I am still enjoying it, just have to learn some patience I guess!!!

For the first time in ages I've had to download a tactic so that I can get back to enjoying the game, which for me is disappointing.

Same here, which is disappointing, but I can live with it if it helps me enjoy the game.

My problem with tactics in 09 is how different they appear to be compared to 08, and I feel like i'm almost learning the relevance of each slider and each settings possibilities all over again. I used no bizarre arrows or strange instructions in my 08 tactic, so I wasn't exploiting the ME and always thought that it was just a good tactic, I tried it with 09 and got destroyed.

Other than removing the arrows, why does there need to be such a major difference in how successful a tactic is from version to version?

Agreed......I've noticed it takes a lot longer to play the game, the Tactics seem very delicate with regard to getting the balance right, it would also help if there was a faint Team Tactic overlay when your setting individual instructions....

Took me nearly 3 hours to play 3 friendlies, replace backroom staff and assess my players etc etc....

....But I am still enjoying it, just have to learn some patience I guess!!!

At Last!!

Someone on these forums who has not started the real season yet! I am the same as you, i get as much enjoyment in going through the squad, sorting out who to keep and who to sell, getting an idea of the likely first XI, sorting the staff, tactics, training etc...and then playing the pre-season friendlies as if they are cup finals.

I am up to i think 8 hours game time and i have played one of the 8 pre-season friendlies i have arranged!

I agree the tactics are part of the fun of the game, trying out different ones whilst not trying to lose early games, as it could cost you the league title.

Patience is the key!

Enjoy every minute of gametime, whether you are ploughing through the seasons, or like me playing at the pace of a tortoise (i have never got further than 4 seasons before the next version is released!!).

At Last!!

Someone on these forums who has not started the real season yet! I am the same as you, i get as much enjoyment in going through the squad, sorting out who to keep and who to sell, getting an idea of the likely first XI, sorting the staff, tactics, training etc...and then playing the pre-season friendlies as if they are cup finals.

I am up to i think 8 hours game time and i have played one of the 8 pre-season friendlies i have arranged!

I agree the tactics are part of the fun of the game, trying out different ones whilst not trying to lose early games, as it could cost you the league title.

Patience is the key!

Enjoy every minute of gametime, whether you are ploughing through the seasons, or like me playing at the pace of a tortoise (i have never got further than 4 seasons before the next version is released!!).

Unfortunately I think you're in a minority Inzie. I know some people enjoy going into every little detail and spending hours playing just a days gametime. But it's still a game and most people don't want to have to treat it like a real job.

The point is that I was under the impression that, tactically, FM09 was going to be a lot more accessable and user friendly than '08 was. I'm not sure where I got that impression from but I did, and I have been disappointed with this area of the game so far.

Same here, which is disappointing, but I can live with it if it helps me enjoy the game.

My problem with tactics in 09 is how different they appear to be compared to 08, and I feel like i'm almost learning the relevance of each slider and each settings possibilities all over again. I used no bizarre arrows or strange instructions in my 08 tactic, so I wasn't exploiting the ME and always thought that it was just a good tactic, I tried it with 09 and got destroyed.

Other than removing the arrows, why does there need to be such a major difference in how successful a tactic is from version to version?

This is pretty much exactly the same as me then. My '08 tactic was a very balance 4-4-2 with no arrows at all. I'd developed it to the point where I didn't have to make any tweaks from game to game and still had reasonable success once I aquired better players.

Unfortunately, despite being able to import this tactic straight into '09, it is now completely useless. So it does beg the question of what else has changed in the match engine.

Apart from removing the crazy arrows to stop people coming up with game breaking tactics, did anything else really need to change?

As i've been saying since about FM07, the sliders have to go. The more detailed the match engine gets, the more ridiculously complicated the different combinations of slider settings get.

I would assume that older tactics not working is a knock on effect of all the tweaks that happen between games.

Unfortunately I think you're in a minority Inzie. I know some people enjoy going into every little detail and spending hours playing just a days gametime. But it's still a game and most people don't want to have to treat it like a real job.

Precisely, I don't want to put hours of effort into the game anymore. I did with 08, but I just don't see it as fun this time round. Having downloaded a tactic i'm starting to enjoy it, but there is still far too much to take into consideration when playing and this does affect the fun aspect of it.

I emntioned in a thread earlier, with 08 I would go home now and them at lunch time to play a couple of games, that would impossible with 09.

I would assume that older tactics not working is a knock on effect of all the tweaks that happen between games.

That's true, but I would understand if there was slight difference, there isn't and the tactic doesn't even produce similar football let alone simialr results.

I would assume that older tactics not working is a knock on effect of all the tweaks that happen between games.

I understand that completely. What is frustrating though is that all knowledge gained from '06, '07 and '08 seems to have gone out of the window for me. I suppose I've never expected to be able to just import a tactic from the old version and it work in the same way. What I have been able to do previously though is use the knowledge gained while playing the various games to tweak the tactics until they do work, or come up with a whole new one.

For some reason I can't seem to do this as all this year.

I understand that completely. What is frustrating though is that all knowledge gained from '06, '07 and '08 seems to have gone out of the window for me. I suppose I've never expected to be able to just import a tactic from the old version and it work in the same way. What I have been able to do previously though is use the knowledge gained while playing the various games to tweak the tactics until they do work, or come up with a whole new one.

For some reason I can't seem to do this as all this year.

Yeah, I think you're right on that.

One major thing for me is the removal of the arrows. They allowed me to get my players where I needed them to be. In 09 I can't do that, I have absolutely no idea how to position players and get them making runs to where I want them to be.

The problem with tactics though is directly related to the match engine, which is still pretty fatally flawed for me. The prime example being that you can have better success with a completely unrealistic formation than you can with a sound 4-4-2.

Managers like Harry Houdini do not spend 95% of their time tweaking their tactics and considering the exact mentality and creative freedom of his players, instead he sets them a formation, gives them basic instructions, and spends the majority of his time improving their confidence and team spirit.

FM basically forces you down the route of being a tactics based manager when in real life it is not the only way to be a good manager.

Does the game rely on the forums too much? I've used the "try the tactics forum" answer in the past, but it seems mad to have to rely on a forum to understand the ins and outs of the tactics.

Does the game rely on the forums too much? I've used the "try the tactics forum" answer in the past, but it seems mad to have to rely on a forum to understand the ins and outs of the tactics.

Yes it does, and yes it is.

"Read the TTF guide" is not a valid answer to a genuine "I can't understand the tactics interface"

The point is that I was under the impression that, tactically, FM09 was going to be a lot more accessable and user friendly than '08 was. I'm not sure where I got that impression from but I did, and I have been disappointed with this area of the game so far.

Yes i can see what you mean Chopper99, in terms of most people wanting FM to be an accessable/playable game rather than taking over your life!

To be honest i think the game generally has some wonderful features and is very user friendly in terms of the set up on the computer and the screens etc.

However as far as the tactics are concerned, i have to admit i haven't played enough of a season or game time to be in a position to comment as to whether it is more user friendly or not in this sense.

I have been reading the various threads on tactics and i have to say it does make me slightly concerned that i will need to get these absolutely spot on to succeed at all in the game. How difficult that will be only time will tell!

It does appear from these boards that the tactics and their complex workings are source of consternation for lots of players. Some people seem to have great success and others are left frustrated at 'failing' tactics.

Time will tell with my season!

Wish you all the best with whichever team you are playing!

Thing is, I found that before 09 it was entirely possible to be successful without knowing what everything did. In 09, I don't feel that way. I think there is too much of a reliance on knowing what each slider does exactly.

Thing is, I found that before 09 it was entirely possible to be successful without knowing what everything did. In 09, I don't feel that way. I think there is too much of a reliance on knowing what each slider does exactly.

Precisely! In 08 I moved the sliders to where I thought they should be (I want to attack a lot, not I better attack 14 because 15 will ruin this tactic) and that was that, this time round it feels like i'm expected to know the intricate details of each slider and every notch, if I am to hope for any form of self created success.

After reading the forum I got a hang of the tactics. For me the biggest thing was ensuring the attacking mentality of players were positioned appropriately (no large gaps). That made the world of difference. I do not think 09 has progressed tactics particularly well, its just changed a little. I'm not sure SI have a plan here, but things need a fresh approach.

I do think anyone coming into the game having never played FM would be completely and utterly stuffed

Yeah, I think you're right on that.

One major thing for me is the removal of the arrows. They allowed me to get my players where I needed them to be. In 09 I can't do that, I have absolutely no idea how to position players and get them making runs to where I want them to be.

So far then it seems there's a bit of a concensus that, tactically, the game has become less intuitive than it has been previously. The question now is what can be done about it in the future?

Of course, I have some suggestions:

1 - Standard tactics. I.e the tactics that come with the game. I've not tried these too much but from what I have tried they seem pretty useless. I've tried a couple of the 4-4-2 variations and they certainly haven't been very successful.

Perhaps one idea is to have these tactics actually be useful, even to the point where you can choose a big club with great players, pick your standard tactic from the ones supplied with the game, and be reasonable successful.

As I said, I've only tried a few of these standard tactics but I have a feeling that if I chose a decent club and attempted to use one of them, I'd soon be slipping down the table.

2 - Assistant feedback. This has been introduced to the game this year but in my opinion still needs a lot of work. None of the information given actually seems useful, mainly because I have no idea what to do with that information. Perhaps this should be expanded so that the assistant can offer more advice. So instead of just saying that the players are taking too many long shots (which would be useful if you could simply tell your players to stop shooting from distance) he should perhaps give you a hint as to why. So something like 'lowering the tempo of the play would help' or 'the players are having too many long shotsbecause they have no options in the final third' would be better. To be fair, I can quite easily see most of the things he's telling me myself from watching the highlights, but that obviously doesn't help me solve the problems. So at the moment he's pretty much telling me what I already know.

3 - Analysis tool. What would be really useful would be some kind of Prozone type tool that would allow you to perform in-depth analysis of the match you've just had. Currently there's not a lot to help you go into detail when trying to identify why things aren't working.

Comments on these ideas, or any other ideas, welcome.

Neji, arrows have not been about PLAYER RUNS. Do a search on this forum, explained several times what did the arrows mean...it should lead to exploitation of the match engine.

Not aimed at you, but i'm fed up hearing about this ME exploitation. If someone wants to exploit it, then let them, if we don't want to then we won't. I had two curved arrows, and that was that, now I can't do it anymore.

Neji, arrows have not been about PLAYER RUNS. Do a search on this forum, explained several times what did the arrows mean...the usage of arrows should lead to exploitation of the match engine.

I know what they meant but they were perfect for what I used them for. When you gained possesion, your player would move to that position. The point is that they allowed me to do what I wanted to do with my players. I simply cannot do the same in 09.

The tactics are ok i think, but i am struggling in exactly the same way as chopper and nomis. I'm having moderate success with my own tactics, but sometimes its as clear as mud as to how to improve the things stated in the Opening post, One game i was leading 2-0 against a Man utd side with 90 mins gone. In the last 10 mins i decided to try pull back just a few players and adjust mentalities only slightly lower. didnt go ultra defenssive as that invites pressure. I changed things to close some of the gaps... yet somehow i managed to lose 3-2 all of their goals in 90+... the winning goal being a penalty in the 97th min when there was only 3 mins stoppage time! in 08 i was pretty on top of the tactics having lots of success without reading any tactics help yet this year after reading the TTF guide i find myself struggling more. how a few changes can change the way the game was going is beyond me.

I feel i may have to download a tactic for the first time ever! Also, i do spend quite a bit tweaking with the tactics etc so its not because im not going into enough detail!

Neji, arrows have not been about PLAYER RUNS. Do a search on this forum, explained several times what did the arrows mean...the usage of arrows should lead to exploitation of the match engine.

I think most people in this thread know that arrows are not about players runs, they are a way of defining where you want your players to be with and without possession.

And we know that the use of arrows could lead to exploitation of the match engine, but the removal of the arrows feels like a cheap fix for this. Would it not be better to stop the match engine being exploited by crazy arrows rather than remove them altogether?

At first I was happy to give the removal of arrows a chance, as I didn't use them to exploit the match engine anyway and therefore didn't think that I would be affected. But having played with the new arrowless tactical system for a good few weeks now I have to say that I'm so far pretty unimpressed.

I have actually not read a single thread about player arrows. I deliberately ignored them because I didn't want to cloud my judgement with confusing statements and bizarre explanations. What I've noticed in my Roma team is that players with forward arrows seem to give me my best, most dynamic performances. The forward arrows I gave my fullbacks seem to make them my most potent attacking force.

Of course, none of that is necessarily connected to my use of arrows. I wouldn't know.

but the removal of the arrows feels like a cheap fix for this.

This was my major gripe with them being removed, even before I played 09. I'm quite annoyed the arrows were removed.

To be honest I think the only areas of the tactics that have improved are in ragards to full backs Mike. They do now overlap and get crosses in when given forward arrows.

Unfortunately the strikers are rarely in the box to get on the end of these crosses

I've noticed the full backs getting forward more, but i've also noticed my team swapping position (despite not being set to) more. At one point Van Buyten was on the right wing and Oddo had moved into central defence

3 - Analysis tool. What would be really useful would be some kind of Prozone type tool that would allow you to perform in-depth analysis of the match you've just had. Currently there's not a lot to help you go into detail when trying to identify why things aren't working.

I'm a stataholic, so I'd love another level of detail of the stats.

Other than just 24/36 passes complete, I'd like to know over what distance these attempts were made, who they were aimed at, whether they were low/high passes etc.

I'd love to have the shots thing they have on skysports where you can see an overview of where the shots were taken from and be able to see in the 3D engine trails from the ball in replay mode.

I have actually not read a single thread about player arrows. I deliberately ignored them because I didn't want to cloud my judgement with confusing statements and bizarre explanations.

I was the opposite, when I heard that the arrows were being removed I read a lot of threads on the subject and the theme I got from those threads was that the removal of the arrows would actually make the tactics more intuative.

Fo me this has certainly not been the case and it has infact had the opposite effect.

I'm a stataholic, so I'd love another level of detail of the stats.

Other than just 24/36 passes complete, I'd like to know over what distance these attempts were made, who they were aimed at, whether they were low/high passes etc.

I'd love to have the shots thing they have on skysports where you can see an overview of where the shots were taken from and be able to see in the 3D engine trails from the ball in replay mode.

Yep, anything like this that allowed you to go back to your previous match and do some in depth analysis would be a bonus imo.

It would also have the bonus that you wouldn't have to use it, but for those who wanted to put in the time studying these things I think the benefits could be large.

I was the opposite, when I heard that the arrows were being removed I read a lot of threads on the subject and the theme I got from those threads was that the removal of the arrows would actually make the tactics more intuative.

Fo me this has certainly not been the case and it has infact had the opposite effect.

Same here. I'm actually scared of giving certain players arrows because it may leave me too attacking! I haven't dared to try having all players with forward arrows except the CBs because that surely should not work! But a few tactics i've seen have them all over the place! I only have them on the wingers and full backs!

I'd also love match of the day style highlights shows from the weekends results... how awesome would that be.

Hopefully some things make it easier in the patch thats coming out soon!

Thing is, I found that before 09 it was entirely possible to be successful without knowing what everything did. In 09, I don't feel that way. I think there is too much of a reliance on knowing what each slider does exactly.

My thoughts too!

I had decent success in 08, and I did even better in previous versions, but I wasn't actuallty sure what I was doing right. The sliders messed it all up for me, but I somehow managed to make it work. Now in 09 I have tried the same; adjusting the sliders as I think would be best, but I am doing much worse, even with good teams.

The system is to complicated and not intuitive at all. I have tried to use the tips in the "tactics bible", but you shouldn't need to spend weeks to figure out how the match engine works just to produce a decent tactic (and the tactics bible hasn't produced miracles for me either).

I feel that in order to be successful in FM 09 I have to:

1. Be extremely lucky and stumble across a tactic that works, or

2. Take a PhD in FM 09 Match Engine

I would love to see a completly new tactics interface in FM 2010.