whatever happened to the good old fashioned 4-4-2?

ive been playing FM/CM since its first outing on the amiga and have been a religious follower since. but it seems to me that my pretty good knowledge of players and systems is at risk with this new game.

ive started 4 new games. the teams ive chosen are chelsea, man city, leeds and birmingham. all pretty good teams, more than capable of winning the title with great squads. ive been quite conservative with my descisions, only bringing in 1 or 2 signings that would benefit the side and getting rid of the obvious dead wood.

my gripe is the 4-4-2. ive tried playing this simple, yet effective tactic with my much improved squads but to no avail. what have SI got against it? i appreciate its no killer tactic but surely with the squads and teams im playing with i should be having some good results? surely football is a simple game where you pick your 11 best players and win?

low and behold 4-4-2 isnt what it seems anymore on the tactics. its got sliders here and there with boxes ticked. great i thought. that probably works because they no best. no it doesnt. my strikers are crap. my midfielders shoot from the dressing room.

all im getting is the odd win by a goal and pretty un-outstanding performanances from what are supposed to be good players (when they are injury free!).

i dont want to p*ss about with the sliders on the instructions tweeking tactics i just want to have fun! this game isnt providing it.

I have my doubts about the seriousness of your post - for all I can tell that might as well be a rather wordy sarcastic remark - but basically the default tactics are poor. If you want to play a football management game without ever dealing with tactics (a rather strange approach in the first place, but each to his own I guess), I'd suggest to go download something better from the Tactics & Training Tips forum. There are numerous 4-4-2's there. The game doesn't reward not even trying -- defaults in tactics, training, etc will work, but not work very well.

Football is a LOT more than just putting your best 11 players out and expecting a win. If it wasn't, the top teams could save a lot of money by hiring a less-skilled manager. Sorry to say, but if you want a game where you can just pick the players and not think about tactics,then FM isn't for you anymore.

I have my doubts about the seriousness of your post - for all I can tell that might as well be a rather wordy sarcastic remark - but basically the default tactics are poor. If you want to play a football management game without ever dealing with tactics (a rather strange approach in the first place, but each to his own I guess), I'd suggest to go download something better from the Tactics & Training Tips forum. There are numerous 4-4-2's there. The game doesn't reward not even trying -- defaults in tactics, training, etc will work, but not work very well.

whoa, who are you sven? sling your hook.

Football is a LOT more than just putting your best 11 players out and expecting a win. If it wasn't, the top teams could save a lot of money by hiring a less-skilled manager. Sorry to say, but if you want a game where you can just pick the players and not think about tactics,then FM isn't for you anymore.

i think you need a bird

Using 4-4-2 with great effectiveness.. too great for my liking. Taking a relegation candidate into the playoffs with it.

4-4-2 works fine if you have the players for it. However, if your teams comes with a true DM and AMC, don't try to force them into a regular 4-4-2 or you will suffer.

At the end of the day FM is a game ... i play for fun, not to get a real life football managers job.

The harder the game gets the more it becomes not fun.

I fear if it becomes to 'realistic' the game will loose some of its core fans

At the end of the day FM is a game ... i play for fun, not to get a real life football managers job.

The harder the game gets the more it becomes not fun.

I fear if it becomes to 'realistic' the game will loose some of its core fans

Don't assume that just because you don't like the way it's heading, that everyone will think the same

Have you been in to the lower league forum? Tactics forum? FM stories forum? You will see plenty of people who thrive on the difficulty of FM and they are part of the "core fans" who have been here for years

ive gotta say i kinda agree. i think the 4-4-2 is definately neglected considering its the most common and reliable formation, and similarly whilst tactics play a huge part in how a team consistently performs, im not sure that minor tactical errors perceived by the game in how low/high man united have set their tempo (for example) should have such a drastic effect on the scoreline in a game at home to stoke? i think tiny tactical details have a bit too big of an impact in games, but hey im not complaining as such, i mean im still enjoying it. the problem is theres two 'teams' - those who love the realism and are mostly concerned with how lifelike the game is and those who are just lookin for more simple entertainment

Won 3 leauges and 10 cups with 4-4-2 so far.

I don't play 4-4-2, but then I'm managing in Italy. I sometimes revert to 4-4-2 to close games out and it works well enough.

Being a football manager is not about just sitting in the office drinking red wine and then deciding the usuall 11 will play the usuall 4-4-2 and it's like that 52 weeks of the year. Football managment is about pitting your wits against the opposition and trying to counter attack there tactics. If it was easy as just being handed a straight formation and just slapping in 11 players and off you go maybe fm09 is not for you and the original cm series and early fm series are.

Prefer a challenge and this game is it and the game is not easy at times as it enquires you to use your brain and just goes to show how many would not make a good real manager out there with a post like this.

Balance is the key. Surely you don't just want to be able to open the game and win everything without effort using the default 4-4-2? You would become bored very quickly.

You CAN win and be successful with a 4-4-2 but it does require some management. Afterall, it is a management game. You need to know your players, understand a little the tactics that may suit them and make a few small changes. Then reap the rewards. No computer game should exist on a 'zero effort maximum rewards' basis. It would be challenge-less and dull.

I'm doing fine atm with 4-4-2, had troubles in the beginning though.

to Suttface's post.

In that case, are you going to have a bash at getting into FM09?

Balance is the key. Surely you don't just want to be able to open the game and win everything without effort using the default 4-4-2? You would become bored very quickly.

You CAN win and be successful with a 4-4-2 but it does require some management. Afterall, it is a management game. You need to know your players, understand a little the tactics that may suit them and make a few small changes. Then reap the rewards. No computer game should exist on a 'zero effort maximum rewards' basis. It would be challenge-less and dull.

Totally agree

In that case, are you going to have a bash at getting into FM09?

I'm trying, i've got a save going and it seems to be working out, the only problem is time it takes to play the game. I got three games played in an hour and a half last night, might have to consider a new computer.

I'm trying, i've got a save going and it seems to be working out, the only problem is time it takes to play the game. I got three games played in an hour and a half last night, might have to consider a new computer.

That's what I had to do. It's a heck of an investment just to play a game, but I suppose it comes to us all eventually. It was a no-brainer for me. I knew I wanted to play the game enough for it to be worth buying a new laptop, and it was. But, you know, you've got a wife and a kid and stuff, so your considerations will vary wildly from mine.

There are only a few things I actually spend money on i.e. cigarettes and dvd's, whereas my wife was all too happy to buy £100 coats from Urban Outfitters last night so in theory I should be allowed to get myself a toy.

Not just in theory. Go out there and do it! But if possible, try and come up with a way to make it seem good for her.

At the end of the day FM is a game ... i play for fun, not to get a real life football managers job.

The harder the game gets the more it becomes not fun.

I fear if it becomes to 'realistic' the game will loose some of its core fans

i 100% agree mate.

There are 2 different issues here; can you use a 4-4-2? Yes. Does the game take too long now? Hmmm, opinions vary. But in answer to OP, 4-4-2 does work with minimal adjustment.

Being a football manager is not about just sitting in the office drinking red wine and then deciding the usuall 11 will play the usuall 4-4-2 and it's like that 52 weeks of the year. Football managment is about pitting your wits against the opposition and trying to counter attack there tactics. If it was easy as just being handed a straight formation and just slapping in 11 players and off you go maybe fm09 is not for you and the original cm series and early fm series are.

Prefer a challenge and this game is it and the game is not easy at times as it enquires you to use your brain and just goes to show how many would not make a good real manager out there with a post like this.

1. i dont work in an office. never have.

2. although i do enjoy a drop of red im more of a pint man.

3. i dont mind "pitting my wits" against opponents, im just fed up with messing about with sliders and ticking/unticking boxes on the tactics menus to find the holy grail of finding a 'perfect' one.

4. whats wrong with just "slapping in 11 players" if theyre the best in their position? at the moment how im feeling about FM, CM doesnt seem like a bad option.

5. you cant tell me that all managers in real life are tactical geniuses. for every arsne wenger theres a harry redknapp. football isnt a complicated game. i like a challenge, but i like having fun more and when i shell out the best part of £30 i expect it.

football isnt a complicated game.

With all due respect, if that was the case then you wouldn't be playing FM and you'd be a real manager.

With all due respect, if that was the case then you wouldn't be playing FM and you'd be a real manager.

thankyou for your constructive and insightful response.

Then this game isn't for you, there are plenty of alternative games for you to play. Fifa looks like what you want.

And it was just as constructve as saying

whoa, who are you sven? sling your hook.

when somebody gives you a serious answer to what was basically a rant about not being good enough.

thankyou for your constructive and insightful response.

TBH it's about as constructive as your post. You're claiming that football management is not complicated and so the game shouldn't be complicated, a ridiculous statement almost commands a ridiculous response.

thankyou for your constructive and insightful response.

He was just disagreeing with that particular point. It was constructive enough. Football is a game where the beauty is often in simplicity. However, that simplicity is actually in appearances. Like Arsenal at their best. It looks so simple and so beautiful. But it is actually a complicated business getting them to do that.

Oh yeah, and telling someone they need a bird is hardly constructive.

nomis07 and mike7077. you both have far more posts than me. therefore your either more knowledgable about the subject or dont have a life. ill go for the later rather than the former and bow down to your superior posts. your right. i am silly, stupid and dont know what im talking about. i will cease to post from here on in. forgive me.

I would question the need for the personal attacks. All we did was disagree with you.

I've got a good working 4-4-2 formation that I've developed myself.

nomis07 and mike7077. you both have far more posts than me. therefore your either more knowledgable about the subject or dont have a life. ill go for the later rather than the former and bow down to your superior posts. your right. i am silly, stupid and dont know what im talking about. i will cease to post from here on in. forgive me.

I always feel slightly sorry for someone when they are obviously so totally inept that they must resort to childish finger pointing and insuffereable stupidity. Thhis forum is for debate, and if you want to have a debate about subjects then i'll happily have one with you, atm it looks like you're incapable of accepting someone disagreeing with you and you're so precious that you see it as a personal attack.

nomis07 and mike7077. you both have far more posts than me. therefore your either more knowledgable about the subject or dont have a life. ill go for the later rather than the former and bow down to your superior posts. your right. i am silly, stupid and dont know what im talking about. i will cease to post from here on in. forgive me.

If you are going to argue that playing your best eleven should simply win you games in a forum supporting the most complex and complete management simulation on the market, you are not going to get much joy. Hitting your head against a brick wall might be a better option. If you wish to learn how to play FM09, a little humility and less personal abuse might help. Failing to listen to anyone on the forums who might disagree with you is wasting everybody's time.

Or perhaps you don't want to enjoy playing FM again?

I really question what posts have to do with it. All I did was explain why, in my opinion, football is not as simple as it seems and why he was hardly in a position to criticise the level of constructiveness of other peoples' posts after telling some they needed a 'bird'. His reaction was pretty childish, to be honest.

With all due respect, if that was the case then you wouldn't be playing FM and you'd be a real manager.

He's right football isn't a complicated game. Its very simple, which is why it was once referred to as "the opiate of the masses" (Marx). However, FM isn't, and I love it!

He's right football isn't a complicated game. Its very simple, which is why it was once referred to as "the opiate of the masses" (Marx). However, FM isn't, and I love it!

It was religion that Marx called the opiate of the masses. That said, I'm sure he would have said the same about football!

I see what hes getting at, I mean from the lowest level of football to the top, its about the players, yeh tactics can help, same with morale, team talks etc, but really if you have a team of better players you are more likely to win, tactics is about getting that extra 10% out of them, so say you have get the tactics right, the morale right, training etc then you can punch above the sum of your players ability, but you should at the same time take a top team like Man Utd who have superior players in most positions, use a 4-4-2 with players in their right positions and defualt tactics or pre-set tactics and win most of your games, not necessarily against say Chelsea or Arsenal etc, but most of your games without much effort, the extra skill is to get them to win against the other top teams, but if you cant do that then the game has lost something because as their is no 'easy' option like most computer games have, if you wanted an easy game you choose a good team, if you cant do that then the game has lost something in my opinion. I always thought the challenge of CM was to get a team to acheive better than what they usually do, if you have to put a lot of hours and detial and effort into a team to just get them to acheive what they are supposed to then thats not right.

but really if you have a team of better players you are more likely to win

100% categorically incorrect.

LOL @ this Keegan wannabe.

Play a 1-2-7 like in the olden days and see how you manage.

It was religion that Marx called the opiate of the masses. That said, I'm sure he would have said the same about football!

I think its safe to say I was using "poetic license" But thanks.....

100% categorically incorrect.

Hmm lets hang on a sec and think about this. I don't agree with the OP, but I'm sure that if you had better players man for man in all 11 positions then statistically you surely must be at least more likely to win than lose. I'm no mathmo but I'm sure it can be worked out.

as he said more likely then he is most probaly right.

From my corner, everyone above is correct (abuse aside).

I'm a CM/FM veteran, and am really struggling with 09. I've tried various customised tactics, including a 4-4-2 one that worked okay for while (a dozen games) before the opp/AI found a way to stop me winning more than 1 game in 3 or 4.

I love the challenge, and IMO all FM/CM players always have (otherwise we'd play FIFA I guess?) but I'm a season and a half into my career with Liverpool and I feel like I'm still a million miles away from getting the best out of a good squad, which is frustrating.

Getting back to the OP, I suggest, as other have done, that you spend some time in the tactics forum.

Good luck (and wish me luck too please )

Hmm lets hang on a sec and think about this. I don't agree with the OP, but I'm sure that if you had better players man for man in all 11 positions then statistically you surely must be at least more likely to win than lose. I'm no mathmo but I'm sure it can be worked out.

The point is, just having the best 11 players is not the majority of what makes you likely to win. I wouldn't even say it was 50%, let alone the 90% that he said.

If it was, I could take charge of a big team, and play a basic 4-4-2 with the best 11 and I would be 90% toward winning?

I don't think so Tim.

The point is, just having the best 11 players is not the majority of what makes you likely to win. I wouldn't even say it was 50%, let alone the 90% that he said.

If it was, I could take charge of a big team, and play a basic 4-4-2 with the best 11 and I would be 90% toward winning?

I don't think so Tim.

Indeed, Chelsea would be invincible IRL and in game.

Indeed, Chelsea would be invincible IRL and in game.

Ooo, not sure about the Chelsea analogy there Nomis07 However tactics play a massive part of the game IRL, lets look at Ronaldo for example, if you were using a standard 4-4-2 formation and had him with individual instruction such as: No Forward Runs, Tight man Marking, don't take freekicks or penalties, stay back for your corners, never run with ball (I know a couple of those are a little far fetched but I'm making a point) then he would not be the player he undoubtedly is IRL in FM would he? So with just the wrong individual instructions for 1 player can ruin your teams success in both the game and IRL. As has been said, 4-4-2 will work but you shouldn't just expect to pick your players, sit back and watch them win every competition they enter!

Imagine if you put Fat Frank on long shots rarely.

He wouldn't get anywhere near 20 deflected goals a season.

Imagine if you put Fat Frank on long shots rarely.

He wouldn't get anywhere near 20 deflected goals a season.

LOL! Brilliant!

Ever since CM2, I've only used 2 formations, and I've been successful in every edition, including FM09. Both with big Premiership clubs and small 3rd division clubs. And I don't spend a lot of time tweaking tactics, hence why I'm always wondering why people spend 3 hours adjusting their tactics for 1 single match. A waste of time if you ask me. The way I play is this, I have 2 formations, both with an attacking mentality:

1. 4-3-3: GK, DR, DC, DC, DL, DM, MC, MC, AMR, AML, STR

2. 4-4-2 diamond: GK, DR, DC, DC, DL, DM, MR, ML, AM, STR, STR

What I do is; When I start a new save game I turn the before-mentioned formations into presets. During pre-season I decide which of the 2 formations works best for my team. Then I always see that after a few months the results go backwards. This results in me changing the formation to the other one, and low and behold! suddenly the team is performing again. Works for me every single time, it's so incredibly easy.

I can't explain why it works though, but it just does, every single time.

Mind you, I do put a lot of time in tweaking my training and hiring specialized coaches (if my budget lets me that is), but I don't believe that explains why I can be successful in every edition of CM/FM with only 2 formations.