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(Another) New Approach to CA & PA


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I know the subject has been done to death on here but I don't recall this approach being discussed. Basically I think PA/CA needs to be split into 3 categories, Technical CA/PA, Mental CA/PA & Physical PA/CA.

Why? Well the current system uses up CA points to calculate all the attributes for a player so a player with crap CA will be pretty poor accross the board but this doesn't reflect reality.

In the lower leagues a player may be very strong, fast etc but poor mentally or technically but the current system usually means its hard to represent this.

If the 3 were taking points from different "PA points pools" a player could be fabulous mentally and crap in other areas etc. without the points having to be shared.

It would also allow each area to develop more independently. Net result a player could become excellent technically early on, then develop the physical side with mental stats growing later in their career.

It would also allow seperation of attributes for when a player starts going downhill taking away the annoying aspect of a players mental attributes dropping just becuase the overall CA needs to drop.

Thoughts?

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It doesn't work like that. I'm pretty sure they actually allocate the attributes manually and then give a CA based on the given attributes. So a particularly good physical, mental or technical attributes can be allocated even with a bad CA if that was how it is irl.

For PA, it changes according to your training. So your suggestion really doesn't make any sense.

But one thing I agree with is the mental attributes. There should be some kind of measures to prevent the mental attributes dropping significantly at the older age. But FM09 seems to have improved where 08 failed. The old players no longer lose their attributes dramatically suddenly.

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PA doesn't change, only in rare circumstances.

I think he meant attributes change according to your training schedules.

My 2 cents though... decent idea but it would be a nightmare for researchers to have to guess a player's mental PA, for example. It's hard enough assessing PA.

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It doesn't work like that. I'm pretty sure they actually allocate the attributes manually and then give a CA based on the given attributes. So a particularly good physical, mental or technical attributes can be allocated even with a bad CA if that was how it is irl.

For PA, it changes according to your training. So your suggestion really doesn't make any sense.

But one thing I agree with is the mental attributes. There should be some kind of measures to prevent the mental attributes dropping significantly at the older age. But FM09 seems to have improved where 08 failed. The old players no longer lose their attributes dramatically suddenly.

But a CA is limited by the overall PA. Once the points are used up thats it. By splitting them you could have someone with a very high Physical PA so they can develop into a bull of a player but their mental PA or techinical PA would be low so they are poor in that area.

Athe the moment to find a lower league player who is stronger than Michael Owen is rare whereas in real life a lot of Lower League players have the physical ability but the rest lets them down.

Obviously the 3 areas would have to interact to create a balance, just the points available for the CA would be drawn from 3 seperate pools.

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Where your PA gets allocated is affected by training. So that means if there were 3 separate PA pools, it would be way too predictable and you would never be able to increase that CB's acceleration and pace above 15 if it was low to start with.

It's better this way, because you can shape your players to play according to your style.

edit: daemonic, you don't seem to understand. you CAN increase a certain aspect of the player if you TRAIN them for that attribute. If you lock the PA for different sections then they are stuck with what they have and you have no control over how they will grow in the future.

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I understand what you're saying about specific training improving certain aspects however when the players are poor enough in terms of PA (<100 probably) there may be very little PA points to play with so a players pace or strength etc will be limited along with all other attributes.

Allowing a player a high physical PA would allow them be trained to be an excellent athlete but the absence of a decent mental or technical PA will limit them from ever being more than a physically imposing but limited player.

I can see how the system would be flawed with higher PA's but in the lower leagues I think IRL there are a lot of very physical players and this isn't reflected in the game, particularly in the regens being produced.

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Mental attributes should not be based on CA/PA at all imo, they should increase and decrease depending on experience. Players who play in top leagues and big competitions regularly should see increases in certain mental (and hidden) attributes and players who have not had experience playing at that level should not.

Also, mental attributes such as Team Work should be influenced by things like how long a player has played in the same team or with the same group of players.

I agree that physical and technical attributes should perhaps have seperate CA's and PA's, but mental attributes should be influenced by many factors that are completely seperate to the CA/PA model.

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Mental attributes should not be based on CA/PA at all imo, they should increase and decrease depending on experience. Players who play in top leagues and big competitions regularly should see increases in certain mental (and hidden) attributes and players who have not had experience playing at that level should not.

Also, mental attributes such as Team Work should be influenced by things like how long a player has played in the same team or with the same group of players.

I agree that physical and technical attributes should perhaps have seperate CA's and PA's, but mental attributes should be influenced by many factors that are completely seperate to the CA/PA model.

Good point on the mental attributes although there should be some kind of limit as there are players who play for big clubs who will never be more than average in certain areas (Ronaldo will never have Kuyt's Work Rate attribute for example). But definetly agree that matches played in, players played with, manager in charge should affect these attributes a lot more than training ever could.

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I don't really see that splitting CA/PA into the three categories actually offers anything new. A player still has a current and maximum CA (technical CA + mental CA + physical CA, and the same for PA), it's just an extra constraint on how the player develops within his CA. You are basically saying up front, this player will only ever be a physically good player, he will never be technically good enough (or whatever, depending on the distribution of the three PAs). With the current system, there is more flexibility on how a player will develop because he only has an overall constraint on his development.

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I'm pretty sure that the player development models already impose practical limitations on the minimum and maximum improvements players might make in particular areas over a particular period of their career - that's why ageing players lose pace, acceleration and stamina much more dramatically than anything else, short players can't be trained to be top jumpers, youngsters get significant boosts to some mental stats as they gain experience regardless of whether their training schedule encourages it etc. In FM as in life as a player gets older their mental awareness of the game usually improves to allow their experience to compensate for their waning pace.

I've been impressed by how many young regens at a low level have decent physical attributes and most technical and mental attributes at 1... they're not universally "pretty poor across the board" at all. And for those players that are average athletically and technically for their level you actually have more flexibility under the current system to develop them into top athletes because you can train their fitness intensively and allow their other attributes to fall to compensate. The only way your system would allow more opportunity to develop low level athletes is if their physical PA was artificially high... ie making the weighted average of "technical PA", "mental PA" and "physical PA" much higher than a players PA would be under the old system. Otherwise there's actually less scope to improve a physical player in a low league.

A single PA is very, very useful as an instant indication for the AI to evaluate a player (with minimal processing overhead). This is the case because CA/PA are position specific, and individual attributes are heavily weighted according to the importance of attribute balances to a particular position. A generic "Physical CA/PA" probably wouldn't be that useful an indicator of ability to anyone anyway ... Theo Walcott, who is blisteringly quick but very lightweight presumably wouldn't have that high a "Physical CA/PA"...and he's not exactly technically or mentally impressive across the board either. The current system accurately weights his pace, dribbling, finishing and composure as being key to his position and rates him as a top prospect who is potentially devastating in game. On a related note the main reason you don't see many players with very high physical stats at low level is mostly to do with design of the match engine making physical players perform very well, hence physical attributes being given a high weighting to ensure the minority of League 2 standard strikers that are very quick have very low footballing intelligence so they don't give Premiership defenders nightmares. Researchers therefore have to weigh up making a striker a little slower than he is in real life against making him completely useless as a footballer.

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Why? Well the current system uses up CA points to calculate all the attributes for a player so a player with crap CA will be pretty poor accross the board but this doesn't reflect reality.

In the lower leagues a player may be very strong, fast etc but poor mentally or technically but the current system usually means its hard to represent this.

It's not hard to represent, it's certainly possible in the current system.

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The big problem in 08 was that the attributes of regens were not distributed rationally. So you could have a player with 20 for dribbling and finishing but only 9 for pace and strength. It needed balancing out and I think they've done that with 09.

Neat idea, although I agree with one of the other posters re mental attributed. I'd suggest these should be variable depending on the player's current state of mind. Look at Beckham. He can still pick out those incredible cross-field balls, but he can't run for toffee. His physical attributes may decline but his mental ones will be much the same as they were when he was 22 - and what made him such a good player at such a young age.

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I've been impressed by how many young regens at a low level have decent physical attributes and most technical and mental attributes at 1... they're not universally "pretty poor across the board" at all.

My lot are...although thats probably to do with managing in the BSS ;)

Good post :thup:

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Good point on the mental attributes although there should be some kind of limit as there are players who play for big clubs who will never be more than average in certain areas (Ronaldo will never have Kuyt's Work Rate attribute for example). But definetly agree that matches played in, players played with, manager in charge should affect these attributes a lot more than training ever could.

That's more because of his temperament though than anything else. If he had the right attitude he could easily become a better worker on the pitch.

But that's brought about an interesting point (and there have been some very good points made in this thread), that mental attributes are affected too much by age in some respects. Being older doesn't make you less of a team player, for example, nor less of a leader (although if you can't perform on the pitch it's fair enough for it to drop). I like the idea of them reacting to experience though, and being 'outside' of the current CA/PA distribution method.

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Good point on the mental attributes although there should be some kind of limit as there are players who play for big clubs who will never be more than average in certain areas (Ronaldo will never have Kuyt's Work Rate attribute for example). But definetly agree that matches played in, players played with, manager in charge should affect these attributes a lot more than training ever could.

Work rate can't be improved as much as other attributes though, same with bravery, determination, aggression and flair, it already works like that in the game.

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