Its' not the game, itts beautiful

I have bought every CM/FM since my dad bought me CM98/99 for xmas one year. Ive been hooked ever since.

Last fridday was no different.

My first thoughts on this game we it is too hard

I started with Rotherham who are my team, and got so frustrated, I tried man city, and lost 5-2 to fulham among others, I am now Burton and despite losing my first game 8-0 after 3 hours of pre season preparation im happy.

I finally stopped blaming the game a realised it was me.

In previous incarnations it was all too easy (as recently as the last CM) to set a tactic, and, bar a few personell and the odd last minute change, run with it through a whole season and do well enough, as if teams were pre programmed to finsihs where they were expected eg man u win prem etc, so it was 'easy'

This however is not, for example, Burton have been promoted in both my rotherham and man city gamwes, yet i take charge and its not so easy, a tactic which thrashes a team one week, gets you thrashed the week after.

It's not a bug, or a fault or the game, its you. This is an incredibly versatile, involed game where u spend hours every match getting it just right amnd when you win, even score, the reward is worth it all. 2am this morning i scored against northwich in the 89th minute to make it 1-1 and woke the street up.

It is worth plugging away at, this is definitely the nearest any game has come to a real manager, you actually have to WORK for results and I love it.

What a brilliant game. I'm sticvking at it with burton, my eventual dream to get RUFC in prem, which ive nearly done on other games, dont think this will be so easy, but thats a good thing!

Thankyou for making us have to work hard for success!

Thankyou for making us have to work hard for success!

I'm not usually a complainer and I am definitely pleased with the new game. However, I work hard at my job from 8.00 to 5.30 five days a week. I don't want to then have to work my ass off in my leisure time! Though I don't expect SI to make the game based on what I want. Still, I wish it were a bit easier.

Same as Mike, I have better things to do with my time than sit for about 4 months trying to get to grips with this game. I want it to be fun, but atm it's just frustrating. I love FM and I like FM09, but I just can't be bothered.

Okay, I told a lie. I don't work especially hard at my job. But I still work harder at it than I want to work at a computer game.

Yeah there's no doubt it's a great game, but SI have missed the point somewhat. We don't all have the qualities to be a REAL football manager and don't really want to either. So it's a bit stupid to expect that all users will be capable of enjoying this complicated piece of work.

Same as Mike, I have better things to do with my time than sit for about 4 months trying to get to grips with this game. I want it to be fun, but atm it's just frustrating. I love FM and I like FM09, but I just can't be bothered.

10000% agree with you!!

I understand your points, we all work hard and like to chill, but isnt it great to really get your teeth into rather than having a game in which you push a few buttons and win everything?

Isn't it still fun to have a challenge?

I for one do work hard and am glad the game is hard though its wreaking havoc with my sleeping pattern/love life/job/everything.

well worth it though.

Just wait a few more weeks till people get the hang of it and this forum is full of people winning stuff!

Yep, you guys talk like you have to work you ass off to make a tactic.

whats the point though if its too easy??

I agree with rufcjoe that 09 is more realistic than before. FM is the best management game because of the depth, attention to detail and how realistic it is, 09 just takes this further.

If you want a game which you can pick up, play and put down again without having to think, i suggest you go and buy LMA or something similar.

Yep, you guys talk like you have to work you ass off to make a tactic.

We do!

but isnt it great to really get your teeth into rather than having a game in which you push a few buttons and win everything?

Speak for yourself, I found FM08 difficult, it took me 14 years to win the CL with FC Bayern. It's not the winning that is fun, it's the feel of the game, FM08 was hard and fun, whereas FM09 takes a lot of effort IMO with minimum rewards.

Time for user selectable skill levels maybe. It has been argued in the past that if you want it easier, pick a bigger club with plenty of good players and even more money. However I want to play with the team that I support, and quite frankly I'm not good enough at the game to be able to avoid relegation with Hull City. A 10 or 20% invisible bonus to the human manager on an easy skill level would probably make the game more fun and just a bit of a challenge, which is what i want. After all, we all aren't the next Phil Brown.

10000% agree with you!!

Me too, thats partly the reason why im sticking with 07.

For me it's not that I don't understand it, but it's just that it's damn frustrating when you think you did everything right and the stats show that (lots and lots of shots on target) but the goals are just not happening.

whats the point though if its too easy??

I agree with rufcjoe that 09 is more realistic than before. FM is the best management game because of the depth, attention to detail and how realistic it is, 09 just takes this further.

If you want a game which you can pick up, play and put down again without having to think, i suggest you go and buy LMA or something similar.

Who said anything about wanting it to be too easy, or wanting to win all the time or wanting to just pick up and play?

I love FM08, and IMO it's far from easy, and I don't win half as much as I would like. This "go play LMA" point is ratehr redundant, as I think the general consensus is that FM09, whilst a step in the right direction, is considerably harder than FM08, what LMA has to do with it I have no idea.

We do!

No, you don't.

No, you don't.

Yes I do . Sorry, but how on earth would you know if I have difficulty with tactics or not and how much work I have to put into it?

I agree with some of the comments on here regarding difficulty. I'm not sure that the game is too hard, just possibly too involved. Also i don't see that playing as a big team is the best way to make the game less challenging.

Take my situation for instance i am playing two saves, in one i am Leigh in the BSN/BSS and in the other i am Man Utd obviously in the prem. In my Man Utd game i have excellent players and all but unlimited resources but so do a lot of other people in my league, therefore my success needs to be based on something other than excellent players and if my tactics aren't perfect then i am in trouble.

My Leigh game is different as everyone in the league has a set quality level, they almost certainly will not be able to attract players beyond this level of quality. A human player such as myself can negate this using clever loans. I brought in two Everton strikers (youth) and they are tearing up the league, i am under no illusions regarding my tactics and put this down to a gulf in player quality.

Personally i am sure that i will get on top of the tactics system in this years game, however as i am now working and no longer a filthy student this may take months instead of weeks, can i really be sure that i will still be interested? Maybe it is time, as the game becomes more and more realistic, to throw a bone to us casual gamers who would love to take the time over micromanagement of tactics, but just cannot.

Who said anything about wanting it to be too easy, or wanting to win all the time or wanting to just pick up and play?

I love FM08, and IMO it's far from easy, and I don't win half as much as I would like. This "go play LMA" point is ratehr redundant, as I think the general consensus is that FM09, whilst a step in the right direction, is considerably harder than FM08, what LMA has to do with it I have no idea.

Erm, well some of you guys have said its too hard... and that you don’t want to have to take time to mess with things all the time and get used to the game. Therefore, this would indicate that you want something which you can pick up and play. however, maybe i should have simply suggested sticking with 08.

Imo 08 was quite easy. You could simply have two tactics, one for at home and one for away and good tactics were quite easy to come up with.

In reality how many teams don’t change their tactics depending on who they are playing? I would suspect not many.

And if "the general consensus is that FM09, whilst a step in the right direction, is considerably harder than FM08" I would suggest that that is something we agree on. However, personally I relish the challenge.

08 was so stupid. I only had 1 tactic. And that tactic got me an average score of 3.5 to 4 a game. So I used to end up with one of the forwards getting 60-80 goals in a season.

FM 07 was simply awful (the first season was so loaded against you it was silly)... FM08 was OK but not alot better as all they had done was cosmetic stuff to tart it up.... it still played terribly... however FM09 is the best ever. It plays smoothly and is tough but fair (ish)... it makes you stop and think ... if it had Pro-Zone it would be almost there...

I have been playing CM/FM for years, but the last time i really enjoyed the game was FM 2006. I am under no illusions that I'm a good tactician and know I would be rubbish at managing a real team, what I miss I think are the small exploits that used to allow me to achieve success, things like the corner exploit in 06 where u could chuck everyone on the far post and have the ball passed to the one player on the edge of the box who whould be unmarked and rifle in a shot, or the great training that saw my players training and condition almost always with green arrows, thus allowing you to develop youth to their potential and also keep your older players in prime condition for longer. These kinds of things made me enjoy the game because it felt sneaky rather then an out right cheat, so I would still need to buy the right players to do well but it was more fun for me. I didnt get it when these exploits were removed because only the people who wanted to use them needed to take advantage of them, those who like the challenge could avoid them. maybe putting these kinds of things back in would be an alternative to difficulty levels, maybe?

I'll be honest and say that the guys who are arguing in favour of how hard the game is are doing a good job of it. And I did say in my first post in this thread that I don't expect SI to make the game with my life in mind.

I'm led to remember a line from the Simpsons where Bart says to Lisa, "I thought you wanted a challenge" and Lisa replies, "Duhhh. A challenge I could do!" We all get the joke. If we want to be challenged, we usually wouldn't expect to guarantee it was one we could do. However, it kinda makes sense to me in our context. I like that the game is challenging and I want it to be. But I want to feel like it's a challenge I'll be equal to.

I refuse to believe that every manager in real life tells every player each game what he exactly has to do. Beckenbauer as Bayern coach once said in in the locker room: Go out and play football...awsome play by Bayern followed. So the game is more complicated but not necessarilily more realistic. I mean if i was a coach of a decent team i surely would be able to get them some points even if i dont have any clue about tactics.

I have been playing CM/FM for years, but the last time i really enjoyed the game was FM 2006. I am under no illusions that I'm a good tactician and know I would be rubbish at managing a real team, what I miss I think are the small exploits that used to allow me to achieve success, things like the corner exploit in 06 where u could chuck everyone on the far post and have the ball passed to the one player on the edge of the box who whould be unmarked and rifle in a shot, or the great training that saw my players training and condition almost always with green arrows, thus allowing you to develop youth to their potential and also keep your older players in prime condition for longer. These kinds of things made me enjoy the game because it felt sneaky rather then an out right cheat, so I would still need to buy the right players to do well but it was more fun for me. I didnt get it when these exploits were removed because only the people who wanted to use them needed to take advantage of them, those who like the challenge could avoid them. maybe putting these kinds of things back in would be an alternative to difficulty levels, maybe?

Those little exploit are the things that ruin the game for me...either it should be "easy" overall or not give the player any advantage at all.

...

Imo 08 was quite easy. You could simply have two tactics, one for at home and one for away and good tactics were quite easy to come up with.

In reality how many teams don’t change their tactics depending on who they are playing? I would suspect not many.

...

In reality how many teams constantly play a new tactic each game? I would suspect not many.

Just out of interest who did you go on fm08 and who are you now in fm09?

Erm, well some of you guys have said its too hard... and that you don’t want to have to take time to mess with things all the time and get used to the game. Therefore, this would indicate that you want something which you can pick up and play. however, maybe i should have simply suggested sticking with 08.

Imo 08 was quite easy. You could simply have two tactics, one for at home and one for away and good tactics were quite easy to come up with.

In reality how many teams don’t change their tactics depending on who they are playing? I would suspect not many.

And if "the general consensus is that FM09, whilst a step in the right direction, is considerably harder than FM08" I would suggest that that is something we agree on. However, personally I relish the challenge.

I think my posts are being misinterpreted as moans about the game.

I think FM09 will turn out to be the best yet, I too relish the challenge, however atm i'm not willing to dedicate so much time to the game to make it interesting. I think the game is far harder than 08, not necessarily too hard, but certainly verging on the effort over fun aspect of realism.

There's no right or wrong in this conversation, but I don't like the tone of "perhaps you should play LMA instead", not having a go, but it adds nothing to the debate.

Perhaps the most important part of your post is the quote, "IMO 08 was quite easy", that is of course just your opinion and shouldn't be considered adequate reason to cast aside peoples opinion that 08 was hard and 09 even harder. IMO 08 was bloomin' difficult, but I perservered and eventually got somewhere with it, i'll dop the same with 09, but IMO right now i'm not willing to sacrifice my free time for what I consider more effort that it's worth.

Those little exploit are the things that ruin the game for me...either it should be "easy" overall or not give the player any advantage at all.

But why did they ruin the game for you? They only effected those that CHOSE to use them, if you didnt like them you just didnt need to use them and they didnt effect the game at all.

Well i didnt use them but i could have stumbled upon them by mistake. So knowing they are possible destroys the realistic feeliing of the game a little for me. Its like if there was something in that gave you unlimited money when you hit a button three times. Might not bother you at all but what if you accidently do it. Its a question of how exactly real life is represented in FM. I know it cant be perfect, but exploits are something that add to the feeling it gets further away from the optimum.

In reality how many teams constantly play a new tactic each game? I would suspect not many.

Just out of interest who did you go on fm08 and who are you now in fm09?

Maybe not a completely different formation/tactic but i suspect that the manager would at least tinker with the tactics depending on who they are playing.

Every team who you play against have their own strengths/weaknesses. A manager changes his teams tactics to negate the opponents strengths and highlight their weaknesses. Or at least they try to.

Im sure a mangers instructions will differ whether they are playing against stoke or chelsea.

On 08 i had a few long term games. One with Man united, one with Forrest, one with Paulista and one with Kidderminster Harriers.

On 09 im playing two, one with Man United and one with Forrest atm

I think my posts are being misinterpreted as moans about the game.

I think FM09 will turn out to be the best yet, I too relish the challenge, however atm i'm not willing to dedicate so much time to the game to make it interesting. I think the game is far harder than 08, not necessarily too hard, but certainly verging on the effort over fun aspect of realism.

There's no right or wrong in this conversation, but I don't like the tone of "perhaps you should play LMA instead", not having a go, but it adds nothing to the debate.

Perhaps the most important part of your post is the quote, "IMO 08 was quite easy", that is of course just your opinion and shouldn't be considered adequate reason to cast aside peoples opinion that 08 was hard and 09 even harder. IMO 08 was bloomin' difficult, but I perservered and eventually got somewhere with it, i'll dop the same with 09, but IMO right now i'm not willing to sacrifice my free time for what I consider more effort that it's worth.

Fair enough... And yeah the LMA bit was a tad rash.

I understand your points, we all work hard and like to chill, but isnt it great to really get your teeth into rather than having a game in which you push a few buttons and win everything?

Isn't it still fun to have a challenge?

I for one do work hard and am glad the game is hard though its wreaking havoc with my sleeping pattern/love life/job/everything.

well worth it though.

Just wait a few more weeks till people get the hang of it and this forum is full of people winning stuff!

I think you're missing the point. I feel confident saying that the vast majority of Football Manager players, most of them never registered on these boards, don't feel like you do. Look. Just about all of us here love the game of football. A game about a game should be double the fun ideally. However, when a game becomes hard work (as opposed to mere challenging) then it ceases to be fun.

I'll give you; in a few more weeks many more people will be winning stuff. But most likely they'll be winning because they've given up grasping the game's narrow winning formula by themselves and instead foced to resort to a number of best tactics and best training routines provided by die-hard gamers like yourself.

Though a 3D graphical match engine is a step in the right direction; when a game becomes a simulation that demands the undivided attention of the gamer for several weeks just to be moderately successful, then that is where I get off in search of something less fustrating.

I'm not usually a complainer and I am definitely pleased with the new game. However, I work hard at my job from 8.00 to 5.30 five days a week. I don't want to then have to work my ass off in my leisure time! Though I don't expect SI to make the game based on what I want. Still, I wish it were a bit easier.

Mike, you're wrong. You don't want it to be easier. You don't want an easy game. You want a game which you can understand. There's a big difference.

Like you, I want to be able to tell my players what I want them to do, what kind of tactics they should play, I want to give instructions to them easily.

I DO NOT want to play a puzzle whereby you need to learn cause and affect of 20 different sliders each with 20 different notches.

It's not that the game is too difficult, too hard. It's that the tactics section remains, even with the new tactics PDF a mystery to most.

I want to quickly and easily create a tactic and correct it. I do not want to spend three weeks messing around with sliders to try and get the players to do what I want them to.

I'd also like training to be easier to understand, I'd like team talks to make some kind of sense.

Right now, this game is one big puzzle, and unless you have no job you'll find it very difficult to work it out.

It's not that game is too difficult or too hard, it's that it requires a lot more time and effort than I think should be necessary to enjoy a game. I'm just not willing to spend the next four months frustrated in front of a computer, in order to enjoy the game next summer.

Mike, you're wrong. You don't want it to be easier. You don't want an easy game. You want a game which you can understand. There's a big difference.

Like you, I want to be able to tell my players what I want them to do, what kind of tactics they should play, I want to give instructions to them easily.

I DO NOT want to play a puzzle whereby you need to learn cause and affect of 20 different sliders each with 20 different notches.

It's not that the game is too difficult, too hard. It's that the tactics section remains, even with the new tactics PDF a mystery to most.

I want to quickly and easily create a tactic and correct it. I do not want to spend three weeks messing around with sliders to try and get the players to do what I want them to.

I'd also like training to be easier to understand, I'd like team talks to make some kind of sense.

Right now, this game is one big puzzle, and unless you have no job you'll find it very difficult to work it out.

You're probably right. I guess I was just being simplistic.

Mike, you're wrong. You don't want it to be easier. You don't want an easy game. You want a game which you can understand. There's a big difference.

Like you, I want to be able to tell my players what I want them to do, what kind of tactics they should play, I want to give instructions to them easily.

I DO NOT want to play a puzzle whereby you need to learn cause and affect of 20 different sliders each with 20 different notches.

It's not that the game is too difficult, too hard. It's that the tactics section remains, even with the new tactics PDF a mystery to most.

I want to quickly and easily create a tactic and correct it. I do not want to spend three weeks messing around with sliders to try and get the players to do what I want them to.

I'd also like training to be easier to understand, I'd like team talks to make some kind of sense.

Right now, this game is one big puzzle, and unless you have no job you'll find it very difficult to work it out.

I think you've hit the nail on the head, so to speak, with that one. I'll admit i'm not exactly the most tactically inept player out there, not even close, but still I know the basics and feel I should be able to implement them. However, each time i turn on the game to play I end up quitting it in total bewilderment, I just can't figure out what it is i'm doin wrong.

And this boils down to what you mentioned, the ambiguity of the sliders. If you look at the sheer number of combinations that are possible to me it sometimes seems an impossible task, never knowing how one slider setting will effect another one and so forth.

At the end of the day, I don't have a job atm and i haven't even come close to understanding what I'm meant to be doing tactically. Yes a large part of this is down to me not being very good, i'm sure, but even though i'm not very good, I should at least be given the opportunity to understand what it is I am doing a bit better.

Don't get me wrong, i do love the game i just want to know what it is i'm doing. Anyway, i hope you understood that, reading back on it i'm not entirely sure i do lol

loved the new game so far, the only thing that's really annoyed me is not loosing one game in la liga, winning the champs league and spainish cup and my game crashes on the 24th July..it looks like it can't be restored even if a patch fixes it? ..the injuries have been a pain but not over the top (although I was barca) and the me is great

Mike, you're wrong. You don't want it to be easier. You don't want an easy game. You want a game which you can understand. There's a big difference.

Like you, I want to be able to tell my players what I want them to do, what kind of tactics they should play, I want to give instructions to them easily.

I DO NOT want to play a puzzle whereby you need to learn cause and affect of 20 different sliders each with 20 different notches.

It's not that the game is too difficult, too hard. It's that the tactics section remains, even with the new tactics PDF a mystery to most.

I want to quickly and easily create a tactic and correct it. I do not want to spend three weeks messing around with sliders to try and get the players to do what I want them to.

I'd also like training to be easier to understand, I'd like team talks to make some kind of sense.

Right now, this game is one big puzzle, and unless you have no job you'll find it very difficult to work it out.

Granted the tactics can be a little confusing at first but by watching a game you can really see how things work. Then by changing things here and there you can make massive advancements.

As long as you you understand how the three main sliders (mentality, passing & tempo) work then you should be able to develop a successful tactic which can be changed slightly (depending who you play as) for each opponent.

You also need to be prepared to change tactis during a game depending on the situation. E.g have a more defensive or a more direct attacking tactic ready for certain circumstances.

I think the main problem is that tactics in 09 are very different from 08, which takes getting used to.

spot on i think another reason that makes this so great is that reading through these forums, you are getting people increasingly saying 'did badly in first season, better in 2nd' etc etc.

If you think about it, if you went to a real life team with no knowledge whatesoever, you would do badly, but gradually get better. most new managers do, therefore it is real, we are getting increasing success stories and though im not there yet (only cos of work getting in the way!) im sure it will be worth it when i start winning even if it does take a while, then hopefully i can take the tactics on to my beloved rotherha,m, or have to start again but at leaast i will have a better attitude. Yeh its only a game you might say but its not, to those who really enjoy it and live it, its much more than that and i for one love the detail and work that has to go into it.

I found it was good to lower expectations, so instead of getting frustrated cos i wasnt top of league all time, my aim is purely to stay up this season n build next season, like you would in real life. That way i dont get so frustrated. I take all your points, and some are good, but you will not persuade me otherwise, this game is fantastic, the best yet, and i just want to play it all the time!

but i thought in football, teams did well when there was a consistent team and consistent tactics so the players get used to everything and gel and get a winning formula, not changing your tactics every second?

Players in real life always moan when stuff changes all the time...through rotation or tactically inconsistencies i.e. ramos and benitez?

I think they've got the difficulty level absolutely spot-on. If you don't want to spend much time on tactics then just leave them on default and you'll do alright. If you want to do really well though surely it figures that there must be an element of effort to get there. If it's too easy to succeed without trying then it you just end up clicking continue with no real interaction with the gameworld. For me that would be no fun. Maybe as suggested before the best way forward would be having several difficulty levels.

Thats also soemthing i dont get. You should change your tactics for every team you play against and on the other side you are penalized for changing your tactics as your team doesnt gel. So can you do anything right.

Oh, and schuey100 summed it up perfectly.

Yet another thread that proves I was right. We need two version of FM. A "Pro" version for people with no life and

a "normal" version for people with careers etc.

but i thought in football, teams did well when there was a consistent team and consistent tactics so the players get used to everything and gel and get a winning formula, not changing your tactics every second?

Players in real life always moan when stuff changes all the time...through rotation or tactically inconsistencies i.e. ramos and benitez?

yeah but the best teams irl are able to react to the situation and change how they play, if only slightly, depending on what the situation requires.

problems with rotating players is a different issue.

In FM terms players with lower mental stats will be less likely to implement tactics exactly as you want them to. But at the same time these players should have very low creative freedom anyway so will be able to deal with their instuctions better than if you give them high CF.

When you change your tactics during a game you will more than likely be doing one of two things;

1. asking your defensive players to be more disaplined (when you are protecting a lead) which shouldnt be a problem as your not asking them to do anything which as defenders they cant do. You may also choose to change your formation to include an extra defender to make it harder for the oppositions attack. and chage your passing and tempo so as to keep the ball, increase time wasting etc.

or 2. if you are chasing a goal you will allow your more creative players more freedom in order to get a goal. Your players with lower mental stats should still have lower CF. You may just tell them to be more direct in their play or pass to a certain area of the pitch.

Your players should only have problems if you change your formation and drastically alter your tactics for every game.

If irl Bolton are beating Chelsea 1-0 with 20 mins to go there stands a good chance that Bolton will become even more defensive than they started and maybe even sub an attacking player for a defensive one. In turn Chelsea may sacrafice a defender for a forward and push more men forward. (the AI even does this against you in games)

Yet another thread that proves I was right. We need two version of FM. A "Pro" version for people with no life and

a "normal" version for people with careers etc.

As the saying goes, "you can't please all of the people all of the time"

And for the record i have a career and a life thanks.

Maybe not a completely different formation/tactic but i suspect that the manager would at least tinker with the tactics depending on who they are playing.

Every team who you play against have their own strengths/weaknesses. A manager changes his teams tactics to negate the opponents strengths and highlight their weaknesses. Or at least they try to.

Im sure a mangers instructions will differ whether they are playing against stoke or chelsea.

You said that fm08 was easy cos all you had was 2 tactics, but what team uses more than say 3 tactics? Changing formations and tinkering with them is a significant difference in terminology. Managers have their prefered 2-3 formations they use and would obviously tinker a little depending on the other teams weaknesses or strengths but wouldn't change it too much as it would affect his team.

Also I might add, as you may have noticed, when managing a lower league team the tactics kind of pick themselves due to a lack of squad depth and talented players