This takes the cake...

Long ball over the top, bouncing through to my keeper, no attackers or defenders within 20 yards so he can wait for the ball to collect.

But no, instead he actually runs forward and dives on the ball while it's outside of the box, and is red carded for deliberate handball.

Just wonderful. When I need him to rush at an attacker he comes halfway and stops, but when the ball is outside the box he runs out and dives on it.

I know a lot of people used to not put a keeper on the bench in 08 because injuries were so rare, but I am glad I did.

People have been asking for this for years. "How come you never see keepers red-carded for deliberate handball outside the area?" Shame the graphics haven't depicted it correctly.

If you post in the bugs forum with a saved game it might get it resolved for the next patch.

This is total speculation on my part and may well have no basis in reality, but this seems like a good thread to share my thinking on this. What it is is that I have a feeling that the game sometimes sets up an event, but doesn't get everything quite right. For example - and this applies to 2D on previous versions as well as 3D on FM09 - I sometimes see a player who is close to the ball and has nobody around him. Rather than do anything, though, he stands there and waits for a member of the opposition to come along and take the ball.

I've often wondered if the game has calculated that the opposition should win the ball in that situation, but has failed to set the event up correctly. As with the original poster's event, I wonder if the game worked out that the 'keeper should handle the ball outside the box and be sent off. However, it has not set things up correctly and what we've ended up with is a totally ridiculous situation.

This is all just conjecture and I'll probably be blown out of the water by someone with a better knowledge of how the match engine works than I have.

People have been asking for this for years. "How come you never see keepers red-carded for deliberate handball outside the area?" Shame the graphics haven't depicted it correctly.

If you post in the bugs forum with a saved game it might get it resolved for the next patch.

I actually reckon it was pretty cool (I've always wanted to see it in the game), just funny seeing him do it under no pressure.

This is total speculation on my part and may well have no basis in reality, but this seems like a good thread to share my thinking on this. What it is is that I have a feeling that the game sometimes sets up and event, but doesn't get everything quite right. For example - and this applies to 2D on previous versions as well as 3D on FM09 - I sometimes see a player who is close to the ball and has nobody around him. Rather than do anything, though, he stands there and waits for a member of the opposition to come along and take the ball.

I've often wondered if the game has calculated that the opposition should win the ball in that situation, but has failed to set the event up correctly. As with the original poster's event, I wonder if the game worked out that the 'keeper should handle the ball outside the box and be sent off. However, it has not set things up correctly and what we've ended up with is a totally ridiculous situation.

This is all just conjecture and I'll probably be blown out of the water by someone with a better knowledge of how the match engine works than I have.

Totally agree with that idea

This is total speculation on my part and may well have no basis in reality, but this seems like a good thread to share my thinking on this. What it is is that I have a feeling that the game sometimes sets up and event, but doesn't get everything quite right. For example - and this applies to 2D on previous versions as well as 3D on FM09 - I sometimes see a player who is close to the ball and has nobody around him. Rather than do anything, though, he stands there and waits for a member of the opposition to come along and take the ball.

I've often wondered if the game has calculated that the opposition should win the ball in that situation, but has failed to set the event up correctly. As with the original poster's event, I wonder if the game worked out that the 'keeper should handle the ball outside the box and be sent off. However, it has not set things up correctly and what we've ended up with is a totally ridiculous situation.

This is all just conjecture and I'll probably be blown out of the water by someone with a better knowledge of how the match engine works than I have.

If I'm understanding your post correctly, this is exactly the situation I thought used to annoy so many people on 8.0.1 (the millions of chances for minimal goals and usually a loss/draw). You'd be watching the 2D show clear cut chance after clear cut chance, but really the match engine probably had calculated all those shots as under pressure and low percentage efforts. Hence all the cries of super keepers and useless strikers.

In summary, the 2D (or 3D in this case) isn't showing the match engine's calculation in a realistic manner?

This is total speculation on my part and may well have no basis in reality, but this seems like a good thread to share my thinking on this. What it is is that I have a feeling that the game sometimes sets up and event, but doesn't get everything quite right. For example - and this applies to 2D on previous versions as well as 3D on FM09 - I sometimes see a player who is close to the ball and has nobody around him. Rather than do anything, though, he stands there and waits for a member of the opposition to come along and take the ball.

I've often wondered if the game has calculated that the opposition should win the ball in that situation, but has failed to set the event up correctly. As with the original poster's event, I wonder if the game worked out that the 'keeper should handle the ball outside the box and be sent off. However, it has not set things up correctly and what we've ended up with is a totally ridiculous situation.

This is all just conjecture and I'll probably be blown out of the water by someone with a better knowledge of how the match engine works than I have.

I've been thinking much the same. It seems much worse on the 3D. I've had plenty of situations like this: My players standing next to the ball doing nothing for 5 seconds until an opponent runs past and grabs it. Sometimes, both my player and an opponent stare at the ball for 5 seconds until someone else runs over and gets it. I've had keepers charging out, getting to the ball first, then stopping and letting the forward take the ball and dribble round them into the goal.

To be honest, it doesnt sound right to me. I think it's more effort for the ME to work that way around (pre-plan events). I would imagine its far more likely for each of the players to behave, to a certain extent, independently within a team frame-work. i.e. they have an objective as defined by the teams settings (sliders), their position on the field in terms of role (right back, forward etc), physical position on the field (10metres from goal, shooting option is available), position from other players (i.e. can I pass to this guy, can I pass to the guy over there...) and so on.

In the keeper coming out to take the ball... I think that could quite easily be attributed to the keeper being the only player near the ball (other than opponent) and so he decides to intercept. During that intercept (or prior) the keepers 'decisions' come into question and the wrong choice is made. Instead of tackling with feet he saves with hands.

Maradona made the wrong decision in most of our eyes.

With regards to players being tackled for holding onto the ball too long. I think that would, in part, come down to decisions as well. Pre-planned collection of ball and scoring would be so poor, I'm sure that isnt what happens (happy for SI to correct though ). It might come down to the holding player being in a state of 'holding' which gives the opponent the chance to tackle and win the ball. Unfortunately this 'holding' event can be shown up for its poor application. i.e. situations in which the player should not consider holding onto the ball.

Maybe.

To be honest, it doesnt sound right to me. I think it's more effort for the ME to work that way around (pre-plan events). I would imagine its far more likely for each of the players to behave, to a certain extent, independently within a team frame-work. i.e. they have an objective as defined by the teams settings (sliders), their position on the field in terms of role (right back, forward etc), physical position on the field (10metres from goal, shooting option is available), position from other players (i.e. can I pass to this guy, can I pass to the guy over there...) and so on.

I don't think that is right as all the matches are pre-determined, and then the match is calculated again if any changes are made so I think Mike coujld well be right. It's the same thoughts that I've had but you can't really say for sure only being a player.

I've had my keeper come out and handball even though he didn't need to ie no pressure but he only got a yellow so I just ignored it and carried on. I haven't seen it since.

This was logged in testing and was supposedly addressed in the patch.

This is total speculation on my part and may well have no basis in reality, but this seems like a good thread to share my thinking on this. What it is is that I have a feeling that the game sometimes sets up and event, but doesn't get everything quite right. For example - and this applies to 2D on previous versions as well as 3D on FM09 - I sometimes see a player who is close to the ball and has nobody around him. Rather than do anything, though, he stands there and waits for a member of the opposition to come along and take the ball.

I've often wondered if the game has calculated that the opposition should win the ball in that situation, but has failed to set the event up correctly. As with the original poster's event, I wonder if the game worked out that the 'keeper should handle the ball outside the box and be sent off. However, it has not set things up correctly and what we've ended up with is a totally ridiculous situation.

This is all just conjecture and I'll probably be blown out of the water by someone with a better knowledge of how the match engine works than I have.

Thats the most reasonable explanation that I have ever heard on this issue. But then comes up the question since the only feedback to the Human player is the 2D/3D representation of the match engine which seams fails to display what the ME has calculated, how are we the Human managers supposed to base our decisions on that representation since that representation might not be what the ME has calculated based on our tactics/team talk/etc.

So in short we are basing our own error prone decisions on the error prone miss representation of the ME calculations by the 2D/3D view, resulting in bad decisions by the human manger, sqr(error_prone) .

This issues has been in the game for a couple of editions now and has never been addressed properly or even explained.

I wish he'd gotten another red card to be honest, as Stafford just put six past me, all but one from beyond 30 yards.

I don't think that is right as all the matches are pre-determined, and then the match is calculated again if any changes are made so I think Mike coujld well be right. It's the same thoughts that I've had but you can't really say for sure only being a player.

I've had my keeper come out and handball even though he didn't need to ie no pressure but he only got a yellow so I just ignored it and carried on. I haven't seen it since.

But what difference does it make as to whether its pre-calc before a match or calculated on-the-fly? You, as the Player, are not interfering with play at any time other than when you make Manager changes, at which point as you say, things are recalculated. Therefore I can imagine it pre-processing the match, which isnt a problem. The steps I suggested can still occur, they just happen to be calculated before the visual match kicks off and not during in this case.

Although, I cannot quite see the advantage in pre-processing the (whole?) match before kick-off... I guess it causes those annoying delays in match start and in tweaking. Perhaps its more efficient (the word efficient and FM together? hoho). It wouldnt be so intrusive if it was calculated on the fly (processing each situation as it occurred) rather than the entire set of events... hmm. I guess it dedicates cycles to your high detail match before kick-off, then background processes other matches whilst you are watching games?

Those that have watched matches in full or extended highlights... have you noticed more post match processing of fixtures if you've watched matches at max speed with no highlights?

Thinking out loud... excuse me

I'm not sure, but I would imagine that it would take alot more processing power to calculate on the fly. I could be wrong. Also, if it wasn't pre-determined, then how would FM know what a 'Key Highlight' was?

I didn't mean to give the impression that I think the whole match is pre-determined. I simply have never seen any reliable facts on the match engine in order to say anything on that matter. My point really was just speculation, and it regarded individual events. I was merely suggesting that the game may make it's calculations and and whatever else it does when deciding what will happen and, in the process, it may decide that something should happen (a player gets tackled, a goalkeeper handles outside his area) but it fails to set it up properly for some reason. The event occurs, but not as it should.

I'm not sure, but I would imagine that it would take alot more processing power to calculate on the fly. I could be wrong.

I wouldnt have thought so in FM's case. I would probably agree if the game was handling something particulary complex but, in comparison to many other games, it's really not. Sure, there is a lot of things to take into account, lots of stats and number crunching but those are calculations to be eaten for breakfast by any PC. Although to be honest its hard to say without knowing what it's calculating and I'm guessing. If you're pre-calculating the actual match, not the visual representation, you're likely to be calculating exactly the same things you would be if it were on the fly. The difference is its either all done at the start (and re-processed with each of your tweaks - in theory meaning the processing becomes shorter the further into the match you tweak) or step by step during the visual representation. Read the whole book in one go, or a page a day. Neither is the more complex option, only more time consuming.

...Also, if it wasn't pre-determined, then how would FM know what a 'Key Highlight' was?

Good point! Wasnt thinking about that. I guess it could quite easily be calculating a few steps ahead of the representation, or getting as far ahead as possible which might go someway to explaining the stuttering some people get during a game/after match tweaks? However it'd be more hassle to determine key highlight events 'whilst' the match was playing out and as a result pre-processing would make more sense. As any coder will say, they'll go for the clean and easy path unless there is a pressing reason to walk the hard and messy path. It'd be far easier to accurately and consistently review a processed match for highlights (and lookup start/end points for each of those highlights).

Perhaps it is processed before the match kicks off so that more time can be given to the visual representation and processing of other supposedly current matches taking place elsewhere in the game world?

However... what was the point of the thread? Ah yes. Whether the match engine gets things wrong. Well, I'm sure it fails to handle all scenarios accurately but I think the examples given could be traced back to correct match engine reasoning (i.e. player stats, scenario the player finds himself in etc.) I'd imagine, during processing of the match, that the correct anims/representations of the event could be chosen. Again, if this latter part of the process happens during the match it might go someway to explaining why it isnt as efficient as it could be. Another theory could be the amount of background processing taking place during a match, maybe it doesnt scale to fit the capabilities of the machine as well as it does (i.e. rubbish machine little to no background processing during a match please).

Whether its processed at the start or during makes no difference to this point from what I can see. I think it just comes down to representation, we're only seeing as good as representation of something that happened in the ME as the visual side can muster. No doubt this representation will improve for FM10. It already improved with the patch (which, correct me if I'm wrong, provided additional animations).

Really interesting discussion, Mike and Neji raise some interesting points that I hadn't considered before.

Having read through it (quickly) I think Mike might be onto something, the game is pre determined, but the representation doesn't always deal with this in an appropriate way i.e. the keeper is going to get a red card at some point, but the game has used an inappropriate occurance to depict this.

I love threads like this

If the match was pre determined before hand...what would happen if i subbed my keeper with a striker?

If the match was pre determined before hand...what would happen if i subbed my keeper with a striker?

It re-calculates the match according to the changes.

So it's both then? Pre determined, and on the fly?

That's why you get a small pause when you make tactical changes

So it's both then? Pre determined, and on the fly?

I know it sounds silly, but that is pretty much how it works. The game pre-determines things, then changes them when the user or the AI alters things.

So it's both then? Pre determined, and on the fly?

Not in the sense I understand 'on the fly'. On the fly to me suggests the match is actually being played out as it happens ie like a real match. Pre-determined means that the outcome is decided before the match is played or changes are made.

You make a change, it decides what will happen AND THEN the match shows a visual representation of that.

Yeah, Neji's right, actually. There's nothing on the fly about it. Like he says, pre-determination happens at the start of a match, is altered by changes made by the user or AI, happens again at half-time and any time in the second half that more changes are made. It never runs as a real match does.

So it changes then on the fly. Ok.

No, it updates on occassion

Makes changes on the fly, based on the changes you make. Ok.

If those changes are 'on the fly', then every change ever made in anything is on the fly.

Makes changes on the fly, based on the changes you make. Ok.

In a way yes but the match itself isn't played out 'on the fly'. You make a change - it calculates what will happen. The match itself is calculated before the visual match happens.

If you consider 'on the fly' to mean any change that is made as an immediate response to an action, then you could claim they were on the fly, I guess.