German Bundesliga profitability

I was just reading an article regarding the latest report into Premiership finances and was rather interested in part of it with respect to what I have experienced in FM:

( Random extracts relevant to my following comments ):

"Germany's Bundesliga was the most profitable in 2006-07."

"While English clubs spend about two thirds of their revenue on players' salaries, German clubs allocate about 45 percent, the report added.

The Premier League's total wages were more than 600,000 euros (£473,000) higher than Spain's Liga and double the total wage costs of any of the German, French, Italian and Spanish leagues.

Prudence at German clubs is maintained as some teams are still considered non-profit organisations and as a law prohibits any individual from owning a controlling stake in any club."

This surprised me hugely when I read it because my experience of 3 seasons managing in the German Bundesliga seems to show that in FM this is all very not the case. I know that profitability statistic comes from a previous comment in the article that there is a lot of debt in the English game and only 8 clubs are making a profit, but still...

I have been managing Werder Bremen for 3 seasons now and, thanks to a Champions League semi-final first season and Champions League football the following two as well as German Cup success and 2nd and 1st placed league finishes, we have had decent amounts of income and thus the board have progressively upped my wage budget to its current state of £630k per month.

What I do see though is that our gate receipt income is very low, either because we sell a lot of season tickets, thus leaving relatively few seats to be paid for on matchdays, and that our financial situation really isn't sustainable. We are losing a couple of million per month at the moment, a situation which tends to get offset by large lump sums of TV money and prize money for the Champions League etc, but still our wage bill is well above 45% of our revenue.

Yesterday I had a news item about some player at a rival German club (a fairly large one, but I forget which - possibly Hamburg) and was surprised to see it say that while he is not one of their top earners, blah, blah, he may leave if their financial situation gets much worse. So I started to take a look and found that a fair few Bundesliga clubs have insecure finances just 3 seasons into the game and half the league is in danger of going into financial meltdown. I should be fine at Bremen for now, despite some appalling transfer dealings on my part, but it looks like other clubs won't be so lucky.

Has anyone else experienced similar or do German club finances tend to be as healthy as they are suggested to be in real life in your game?

I was just reading an article regarding the latest report into Premiership finances and was rather interested in part of it with respect to what I have experienced in FM:

( Random extracts relevant to my following comments ):

"Germany's Bundesliga was the most profitable in 2006-07."

"While English clubs spend about two thirds of their revenue on players' salaries, German clubs allocate about 45 percent, the report added.

The Premier League's total wages were more than 600,000 euros (£473,000) higher than Spain's Liga and double the total wage costs of any of the German, French, Italian and Spanish leagues.

Prudence at German clubs is maintained as some teams are still considered non-profit organisations and as a law prohibits any individual from owning a controlling stake in any club."

This surprised me hugely when I read it because my experience of 3 seasons managing in the German Bundesliga seems to show that in FM this is all very not the case. I know that profitability statistic comes from a previous comment in the article that there is a lot of debt in the English game and only 8 clubs are making a profit, but still...

I have been managing Werder Bremen for 3 seasons now and, thanks to a Champions League semi-final first season and Champions League football the following two as well as German Cup success and 2nd and 1st placed league finishes, we have had decent amounts of income and thus the board have progressively upped my wage budget to its current state of £630k per month.

What I do see though is that our gate receipt income is very low, either because we sell a lot of season tickets, thus leaving relatively few seats to be paid for on matchdays, and that our financial situation really isn't sustainable. We are losing a couple of million per month at the moment, a situation which tends to get offset by large lump sums of TV money and prize money for the Champions League etc, but still our wage bill is well above 45% of our revenue.

Yesterday I had a news item about some player at a rival German club (a fairly large one, but I forget which - possibly Hamburg) and was surprised to see it say that while he is not one of their top earners, blah, blah, he may leave if their financial situation gets much worse. So I started to take a look and found that a fair few Bundesliga clubs have insecure finances just 3 seasons into the game and half the league is in danger of going into financial meltdown. I should be fine at Bremen for now, despite some appalling transfer dealings on my part, but it looks like other clubs won't be so lucky.

Has anyone else experienced similar or do German club finances tend to be as healthy as they are suggested to be in real life in your game?

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">What I do see though is that our gate receipt income is very low, either because we sell a lot of season tickets, thus leaving relatively few seats to be paid for on matchdays </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Oops, I left out half that sentance. I meant to add "or ticket prices are just generally quite low in Germany"

Ticket prices IRL are substantially lower in the Bundesliga than in the Premier League. One of the reasons that even the minnows can sell out their stadiums.

Not sure about English attendance figures, but maybe someone has some stats? I expect most clubs to have lower attendances this season than last.

One other stat from that report that was slightly (although not especially so) surprising is that The Championship is the 4th highest attended league in the world (I think it was the world), ahead of Serie A!

Although I've seen the attendances Serie A gets and this isn't surprising since lots of big clubs are in The Championship at the moment since the likes of Wigan, Reading and Fulham were holding onto the Premiership status with smaller attendances than many clubs in the league below.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by glamdring:

One other stat from that report that was slightly (although not especially so) surprising is that The Championship is the 4th highest attended league in the world (I think it was the world), ahead of Serie A! </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

this is one of the main arguments people use to try and get the championship more coverage from the media

It's also one of the most exciting, although in much the same way (albeit with less quality in attacking) as my Werder Bremen team are - i.e. we are perfectly capable of scoring 4 goals, equally (more at the moment) capable of conceding 4 goals.

TV companies seem to think quality = excitement though. For me excitement comes from having a competitive league of fairly equal teams - even if it is the 7th tier of football in a country!

In FM2008 finances in Germany are pretty messed up (this applies to the entire German db) and obviously we will try our best to get German finances right in FM2009 and especially to reduce the ridiculously high transfer fees for Germany based players.

when i have managed bayern i thought the finances were very good. the money seemed to keep rolling in. after 3 years i had about £200m and a quality side that did well in europe.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by glamdring:

Has anyone else experienced similar or do German club finances tend to be as healthy as they are suggested to be in real life in your game? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Have to be honest that I found balancing my finances quite tricky in Germany without selling players.

I had a self imposed wage structure and not one player was earning over £45k a week, the wage budget was £700k and was operating at £450k, yet every month I made substantial losses.

The stadium was continually sold out, there was a commercial link with Japan and 2 Japanese players in the squad, the league was won every year and managed to reach the latter stages of the CL every year.

Essentially I turned into a selling club and was maintaining a squad average age of about 24 because after 2 seasons players were being sold on for profit.

All a bit irritating really.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by DerMef:

In FM2008 finances in Germany are pretty messed up (this applies to the entire German db) and obviously we will try our best to get German finances right in FM2009 and especially to reduce the ridiculously high transfer fees for Germany based players. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Good to hear from someone in the know

The Germans want to keep their football as a pure game for the folk , that's why they have low ticket prices and they denied big money from television .

Bundesliga does have the highest attendances in Europe

http://www.european-football-statistics.co.uk/attn.htm

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Nomis07:

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by glamdring:

Has anyone else experienced similar or do German club finances tend to be as healthy as they are suggested to be in real life in your game? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Have to be honest that I found balancing my finances quite tricky in Germany without selling players.

I had a self imposed wage structure and not one player was earning over £45k a week, the wage budget was £700k and was operating at £450k, yet every month I made substantial losses.

The stadium was continually sold out, there was a commercial link with Japan and 2 Japanese players in the squad, the league was won every year and managed to reach the latter stages of the CL every year.

Essentially I turned into a selling club and was maintaining a squad average age of about 24 because after 2 seasons players were being sold on for profit.

All a bit irritating really. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

If that was at Bayern Munich that's quite impressive because my wage bill is just under the 600k mark at present. I haven't any commercial feeder clubs though and after a fairly bad season in the Champions League our TV money from that will be down at the end of this year and we are treading a tightrope at the moment to try and qualify for the Champions League next season. If we don't manage it...

Mind you, I have spent far too much on transfers, completely losing my head in one or two cases, one in particular, so our financial situation is at least partly of my own making despite me also selling players for a decent amount.

As for individual wages, Diego is on £45,500 p/w and that is our highest, but quite a few others are in the £30k-£40k bracket. I leave wage capping to my board though generally. To be honest I'd offer whatever it takes, if the board allow it, to keep hold of Diego, although I draw the line at massive wages for most other players.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Themistofelis:

The Germans want to keep their football as a pure game for the folk , that's why they have low ticket prices and they denied big money from television .

Bundesliga does have the highest attendances in Europe

http://www.european-football-statistics.co.uk/attn.htm </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

That's music to my ears based on the way I've been trying to play my game in Germany, although I work based on how FM finances are though rather than trying to do exactly as is done in real life on the financial side because I know nothing about it.

Football for the people is very much my aim though

How much do the German clubs get in TV and prize money on FM?

I was surprised when I read an piece on BBCs site which had a graph that showed the the German league had more income then the Italian, Spanish and French league.

Link: BBC article

I can't remember to be honest. Takes me a good few weeks to play through a season so it's a while since I had the news item about TV money.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by eple:

How much do the German clubs get in TV and prize money on FM?

I was surprised when I read an piece on BBCs site which had a graph that showed the the German league had more income then the Italian, Spanish and French league.

Link: BBC article </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Income from TV and sponsors are easy to explain

Germany is a country of 85.000.000 people , Italy has 57.00.000 and Spain 44.000.000 , also per capita income in Germany is higher than per capita in Spain or Italy ; also Germany has heavy industry and colossal services firms that can pay good money for sponsoring ( same case in italy but not in Spain)

In France football is not number 1 sport and in general for years football was considered a show for the plebes and the immigrants ; but for sure if their mentality changes they can easily make a championship as good as the English.

Potentially Bundesliga can be the 2nd richest league in the continent (after Russia) , they just want to keep football for the masses ( and thats the ideal for me too)

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by glamdring:

As for individual wages, Diego is on £45,500 p/w and that is our highest, but quite a few others are in the £30k-£40k bracket. I leave wage capping to my board though generally. To be honest I'd offer whatever it takes, if the board allow it, to keep hold of Diego, although I draw the line at massive wages for most other players. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I would break the structure to keep Schweinsteiger and Lahm, but most of the players are on £10k or under. I do have a massive reserve and youth team though so perhaps it's the amount of people earning rather than what they are earning.

As for transfers, my biggest was £9m for Manuel Fischer who flopped and was sold for £6m, on top of this i've sold free transfers e.g. Ben Arfa for £21m after one season and Filipenko for £10m after signing him for £110k lol.

I just don't think that my wage budget should exceed my earnings on a monthly basis, especially considering CL revenue, as if I win a match and get the full fee I still lose money at the end of the month. FC Bayern must make absolutely nothing on match days.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Themistofelis:

Income from TV and sponsors are easy to explain

Germany is a country of 85.000.000 people , Italy has 57.00.000 and Spain 44.000.000 , also per capita income in Germany is higher than per capita in Spain or Italy ; also Germany has heavy industry and colossal services firms that can pay good money for sponsoring ( same case in italy but not in Spain)

In France football is not number 1 sport and in general for years football was considered a show for the plebes and the immigrants ; but for sure if their mentality changes they can easily make a championship as good as the English.

Potentially Bundesliga can be the 2nd richest league in the continent (after Russia) , they just want to keep football for the masses ( and thats the ideal for me too) </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

All very true (and part of the reason that when i'm 50 and my daughters all married and jobbed up i'm off to live there ).

I just wonder how much impact the television revenue crashing a few years ago had on the impact of German football, exspecially when you consider that it nearly put Dortmund out of business.

I've finally persuaded the fishes to bite at the third or fourth time of asking offering out my spectacular transfer flop Mario Gomez. Signed for £17.5 million last summer he was on the transfer list 6 months later and now, into March, I have finally teased a number of £8.75 million bids for him out of a few clubs. I flat out rejected such bids from Bayern and Dortmund though - he may have been a flop for me, but he's got talent and there's no way I'm selling him to one of my biggest rivals only to find he turns into the next Miroslav Klose!!

I just need the money now though so making a £9 million loss on the player is just soomething to chalk down to experience, whilst the £8.75 million will keep us from plunging headlong into financial distaster (although funnily enough I'll still be paying a fair proportion of that £17.5 million transfer fee) a year after I have sold him on - pure genius

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Nomis07:

I just wonder how much impact the television revenue crashing a few years ago had on the impact of German football, exspecially when you consider that it nearly put Dortmund out of business. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Money are not the biggest problem of Germany , one way or the other clubs will get over financial crisis . The worst is that there are almost no young people ( very low birth rate) and little Germans ( like many Europeans from "developed" countries) are not interested in physical training , thats why Polish and Iranians are making their national team.

If you add Premiership ticket prices on the top of it German football will be history in less than 20 years , keeping it cheap ( even if they have to face bankruptcy ) is what i see as their only way of preserving their sports.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Themistofelis:

and little Germans ( like many Europeans from "developed" countries) are not interested in physical training , </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I've been to Berlin twice this year already and I always wondered why there aren't any fat Germans despite the food they eat.

Last time I went I asked for an ice cream in the Potsdamer Platz, thinking it would be for one person, my wife ordered a crepe and they brought out the biggest ice cream i've ever seen lol. It was amazing, despite the food and the lack of exercise I didn't see any fat people