Who wants less features, but a more bug-free FM10?

This was just something I was curious about. I love that SI are constantly trying to improve their game by adding new features, but it's been mentioned before on the boards about taking a year off just to fix bugs etc. What if FM10 had no real new features, but instead all development time went towards cleaning off the bugfix list completely, enhancing current features and adding more depth to them, any required fixes to the match engine, and of course a data update.

Would you buy it? Maybe if there is enough people who post their interest in this thread, SI will take note of that. I know I'd much prefer the time being spent on press conferences for example, being spent on improving the match engine even further, as well as cleaning up the bugs, big and small, that have been reported and have been around for quite a few versions. I know FM is just millions upon millions of lines of code, so time being spent on tidying it all up and presenting a more polished product, I think would be a great base to build around.

I'd buy it if it stopped having such widespread issues (i.e. silly bugs).

It wont happen though. They have to try and work towards stability and polish whilst adding new features. Most people just wouldnt buy something without some headline features.

Yes please.

This was just something I was curious about. I love that SI are constantly trying to improve their game by adding new features, but it's been mentioned before on the boards about taking a year off just to fix bugs etc. What if FM10 had no real new features, but instead all development time went towards cleaning off the bugfix list completely, enhancing current features and adding more depth to them, any required fixes to the match engine, and of course a data update.

Would you buy it? Maybe if there is enough people who post their interest in this thread, SI will take note of that. I know I'd much prefer the time being spent on press conferences for example, being spent on improving the match engine even further, as well as cleaning up the bugs, big and small, that have been reported and have been around for quite a few versions. I know FM is just millions upon millions of lines of code, so time being spent on tidying it all up and presenting a more polished product, I think would be a great base to build around.

When i buy a game i expect it to work straight away! if it's playstation xbox or w/e, all you want to do is put it in your console and for it to load up, thats all i want, thats all i expect ..i'm seriously pee'd that i cant play the bloody game, and with the error i have atm...and the countless threads and posts i have made about it! I am getting f'all help, they wont come out and say we currently DON'T have a solution for your problem atm.

All you get is people Moveing, Re-directing you to other forums, ive spent around 30 odd hours trying to get my game to work, i could have been earning more money for christmas during this time!

I think i have gone through everything on here twice! and that is remarkable as i'm not a patient guy really..

Not sure if that answers your Question, but i'm glad i got that off my chest.

after saying that i will give it 1 more day, if i cant get it to work tomarrow then it's back to the shop.

Yes Lord, i want to be able to acutally play a match at least.

Its badly needed. They've been adding new features starting with FM07 and not bothering to fix niggling issues since that time too. Now most have them have cascaded and we're left with a lot of annoying/bad errors and flaws:

Corner Cheat

One on Ones

Dumb Defenders

Poorly optimised coding that slows the game down on match days even on good computers.

Overly complicated tactics

Array Access out of Bounds errors when trying to offer contracts to people.

Injuries! Always they balance it in a patch and then in the new release they've ruined them again!

I could go on and on.

It wont happen though. They have to try and work towards stability and polish whilst adding new features. Most people just wouldnt buy something without some headline features.

The thing is, that the FM series has had problems for awhile now, so surely promise of a much better/more solid product would actually be a headline feature?

Me..I could improve FM no end..I have tons of ideas and tweaks needed.

1. Reliable match engine where sensible footballing tactics brings success.

2. Training improved to link in to tactics..ie anyone can develop a formationa and set of tactics and improve it on the training ground.

3. Player instructions..more reliable..I have Mascherano..playing as DEF MID (ultimate def mentality) with Long shots on rarely...yet he always ventures forwards and shoots..so frustrating.

4. Injuries..still too many knocks in match and long term injuries too frequent.

5. Creating of chances leading to more goals..For the last two FM's it takes, in the majority of games, 20 odd chances to score once or twice yet the opposition can score two out of two.

6. Fitness training and physios to be seperate from normal day-to day training..Those sliders for aerobic and strength are just guesswork at the moment..know one playing the game knows which is the right setting.

7. Team talks..again its just guesswork and there are not enough things you can say.

8. Tactics--the sliders have to go...Rafa Benitez doesnt have sliders in real life..why should we...success should depend on getting the team fit, confident, well trained, homework done on the opposition, home atmosphere, better players improving tactics and results

Ill add more later..

The thing is, that the FM series has had problems for awhile now, so surely promise of a much better/more solid product would actually be a headline feature?

That would be a hard pill for SI to swallow. What would the box say? "FM 10...kinda like FM 09...except without the crippling and silly bugs!"

The thing is, that the FM series has had problems for awhile now, so surely promise of a much better/more solid product would actually be a headline feature?

For you, some other bloke and myself perhaps. Not to the masses that buy the game but do not frequent these boards. I'd wager a load of them dont even know there is a patch or do not know their game has been patched (through Steam).

For commercial reasons I can't see it happening. Of course, I would love it.

I hate when stuff gets taken out of a game. Like when you click on transfer in the World Menu, you cant filter them like FM08. Eg. Only veiw the released players.

I just think they need to get heaps of people testing it, FM10 should not be a massive step, just Fm09 with a few tweaks and some small new things. If its Fm09 with like match engine of FM07/FM08 then I would be delighted. This one just annoys me, my striker open on goal keeps running to the byline, or...hes in the 6 yard box ready to shoot yet he passes back to a midfielder! Stupid

NO, I wouldn't buy it. Fm09 is fine the way it is. I don't see the point in buying a new game for fixes.

Well done mate...

SI have for years been getting away with selling us the same game, with a few new features already. And then some "smartie" comes along and suggests that they don't even add these few new features.

Erm sorry mate but... shouldn't a game that you pay good money for already be working properly? Only reason this messed up scenario exists is because we the consumers allow developers to publish half baked tosh, with our misguided loyalty.

I'm fed up of paying full price for enhancement packs.

If FM10 isn't a completely new game from the bottom up. I will definitely boycott.

Who wouldn't want a bug-free game?

Shouldn't a game be bug free anyways in theory? And no game ever will be in practise.

I want more features, and less bugs.

I would happily not have new features in the game if it meant not having bugs, and a more complete game experience. And I'm sure the coding could easily be compiled and compressed a lot better than it has.

Me..I could improve FM no end..I have tons of ideas and tweaks needed.

1. Reliable match engine where sensible footballing tactics brings success.

2. Training improved to link in to tactics..ie anyone can develop a formationa and set of tactics and improve it on the training ground.

3. Player instructions..more reliable..I have Mascherano..playing as DEF MID (ultimate def mentality) with Long shots on rarely...yet he always ventures forwards and shoots..so frustrating.

4. Injuries..still too many knocks in match and long term injuries too frequent.

5. Creating of chances leading to more goals..For the last two FM's it takes, in the majority of games, 20 odd chances to score once or twice yet the opposition can score two out of two.

6. Fitness training and physios to be seperate from normal day-to day training..Those sliders for aerobic and strength are just guesswork at the moment..know one playing the game knows which is the right setting.

7. Team talks..again its just guesswork and there are not enough things you can say.

8. Tactics--the sliders have to go...Rafa Benitez doesnt have sliders in real life..why should we...success should depend on getting the team fit, confident, well trained, homework done on the opposition, home atmosphere, better players improving tactics and results

Ill add more later..

I'm not looking to be an arse here, but:

1: Already achieved. The issue is that people don't know how to use the sliders, not that the ME has a problem. It is a totally different issue.

2: It's a good idea, but how would you do it?

3: This suggests to me you don't know what you are doing tactically, which brings me back to point one. Clarity of instructions is the issue, and how to translate what you want to happen into the sliders. You have a real life vision of what you want to do but don't know how to make it happen in the game. That doesn't mean it can't happen, just that you haven't worked out the way of doing it. It is a major issue, but you are looking at it in the wrong way, thinking that it is the ME that is busted rather than your instructions being flawed within the confines of how the game works.

4: I think people are generally unaware of how many injuries there are in real life. The post patch FM has it pretty well mirrored. The issues are that if you over train you will get more injuries and that players slightly too often get an in-match injury that means they have to leave the field. Combine the two and you get punished and rightly so. However, I do believe in-match, game-ending injuries need a slight downwards tweak if training is well set.

5: Already solved, mainly through removing the arrows.

6: Good idea, but once more, how?

7: Contradictory. Guesswork but short of options to answer, which would make it more complex and ambiguous. Doesn't make any sense.

8: Once again, how? I have seen so many people state that sliders should go, but not one has come up with a suitable replacement system as yet. It is very easy to say somethign is flawed, much more difficult to design something better than it that is logisitcally possible in a computer game.

It's moving onto another point, but I think the match engine/tactics combo are generally fine. I spent a lot of time on that field with FM 07 and FM 08, and really understood it more. I think SI need to release detailed videos next year with the game, going into detail about how to achieve certain things tactically, what each slider does, and handle a lot of the simple questions we see time and time again.

@ wwfan - maybe because its not explained anywhere in the game exactly what each slider does and what they do in combination with other sliders.

When it takes a 49 page document to fully explain the tactics system, surely that's a sign that things have gone too far?

NO, I wouldn't buy it. Fm09 is fine the way it is. I don't see the point in buying a new game for fixes.

+1. That would be a patch that we were paying for, not a new game.

8. Tactics--the sliders have to go...Rafa Benitez doesnt have sliders in real life..why should we...

No, he doesn't. But he does have the benefit of seeing a player everyday in training, where he can say "play a little bit deeper [mentality] and don't make too many forward runs [forward runs], but try a few more long passes [passing style]". Sliders are the best option so far proposed for replicating that. At least until there's an FM which understands natural language.

EDIT:

@ wwfan - maybe because its not explained anywhere in the game exactly what each slider does and what they do in combination with other sliders.

When it takes a 49 page document to fully explain the tactics system, surely that's a sign that things have gone too far?

Considering the amount of tomes that have been written about real football tactics, and that FM is the sort of game where the intellectual aspect is key, 49 pages is IMO not bad at all.

I would defently buy it, because the issues or bugs on FM08, before patch 8.0.2 was the reason I skip FM08.

I think its difficult to find a point where you can please everybody with the tactics... which is why nobody really has an idea of another way to implement things into a match.

Although it would be nice to have this idea (optimized game and other areas improved, like enhanced press conferences e.g making them more intelligent + much more) i just don't think it would happen. When you release a new version, there are going to have to be some kind of new features, or it just wouldn't sell as many copies... Simple as that.

The only way i could see them getting rid of more bugs being ironed out, and at the same time implementing new features, is to either take on a few extra staff and assign them specifically to iron out the bugs and improve performance while at the same time there are the usual guys doing some of the new features and at the same time helping with the other stuff.

Although this already happens... So in conclusion lol, although it would be nice, i don't think we'll see it! There'll always be new features that will have to be implemented!

I don't know what other players' experiences are, but the full 9.10 patched game is nearly flawless on my pc. To be honest I've not experienced a single bug since the patch. Oh wait, there was one where I could ask for a player report by a coach I'd just fired, but that's really minor. My matches are perfect! Also the injuries are well within acceptable boundaries now, even a little on the low side for me (just Berbs out for 3 months and Giggs for a month, a fit and healthy Man Utd squad in general).

All in all I don't even think another patch is needed for FM09, at least not badly needed. They certainly wouldn't need another year just to "fix" what is already a very solid and extremely playable game. I for one would be disappointed if FM10 didn't have a good deal of extra features, and I certainly wouldn't buy it. This is what I expect of every new FM: an ever improving match engine, not too many bugs (with a patch soon after the release if necessary) and a number of interesting new features. FM09 does all those things brilliantly, and I'm hoping FM10 continues the trend.

what i dont understand is why everytime a new fm comes out the match engine seems to have gone back to square 1 and with loads of bugs , why dont they use the same match engine from previous fm's ? then perhaps they want have to keep releasing loads of patchs every year????

If I wanted a simple feature free game, I'd play CM 01/02

I can't think of many games nowadays that don't have a host of minor bugs, so to be honest I ignore or work around them unless they are game breaking.

I enjoy the introduction of new features.

everyday of the week, **** 3d **** anyway

I don't know what other players' experiences are, but the full 9.10 patched game is nearly flawless on my pc. To be honest I've not experienced a single bug since the patch. Oh wait, there was one where I could ask for a player report by a coach I'd just fired, but that's really minor. My matches are perfect! Also the injuries are well within acceptable boundaries now, even a little on the low side for me (just Berbs out for 3 months and Giggs for a month, a fit and healthy Man Utd squad in general).

All in all I don't even think another patch is needed for FM09, at least not badly needed. They certainly wouldn't need another year just to "fix" what is already a very solid and extremely playable game. I for one would be disappointed if FM10 didn't have a good deal of extra features, and I certainly wouldn't buy it. This is what I expect of every new FM: an ever improving match engine, not too many bugs (with a patch soon after the release if necessary) and a number of interesting new features. FM09 does all those things brilliantly, and I'm hoping FM10 continues the trend.

You must be kidding. There are so many issues still in 9.1 - the main ones being the stupid long shots and the chronically inept defenders that allow goalkeepers to get over ten assists a season.

patch 9.1 is flawless hahaha next joke

Dicko99, can you stop trolling? I've seen you post pointless swipes about fm in numerous posts. Post constructively, or don't bother.

Oh, and cut out the swearing.

Probably won't, but I'd like to sue SI under the Sales of Goods Act. Every release seems to come complete with matching bugs, some have been in FM for years, and were even in the old CM. They should really include it on the box, 'Comes complete with enough bugs to make your experience really enjoyable!!'

You wouldn't buy a car minus the engine??? Also, I was amazed that on the day of release, there was already a patch. So, basically SI sold us a game knowing that there were problems....I don't understand how the gaming industry seems to be able to get away with that.

We all still seem to be happy to buy the game though because now we have the internet we can download about 4 patches that will be released fixing all the "bugs" until FM 2010 comes out with the same bugs requiring another 4 patches.

It just seems that when I was younger more effort was put into making a 'complete' game, yet in today's now culture there are far too many games released that are ****.

They should go back to how Eidos used to release the CM games. It would be CM2 and then the next few seasons would be update packages followed by CM3, which would be like a completely new game. (at least, that's the way i remember it)

someone posting claiming 9.1 is flawless is pointless and infuriating. Swearing is bad i acknowlege that and apologise especially to the minors on here.

For one

I would

A company needs new customers every year, because some of the regulars will quit playing the game. To attract new customers you need new features. You can't survive by releasing patches for one game and not constantly working on the new version and new features.

I think it's time now for a overhaul of some of the core features like the transfer market - but that will bring new bugs into the game. 3D needs also many improvements, but it's not that bad for a first incarnation.

Well done mate...

SI have for years been getting away with selling us the same game, with a few new features already. And then some "smartie" comes along and suggests that they don't even add these few new features.

Erm sorry mate but... shouldn't a game that you pay good money for already be working properly? Only reason this messed up scenario exists is because we the consumers allow developers to publish half baked tosh, with our misguided loyalty.

I'm fed up of paying full price for enhancement packs.

If FM10 isn't a completely new game from the bottom up. I will definitely boycott.

I take it that you don't recall the last time an SI game was released that we re-written from the bottom up? Oh, wait, was it not CM4 - possibly the worst game that SI have ever released?

In general I think people are going over the top. However, there are some constructive posts in this thread (especially the ones with lists of problems discovered).

Personally however, I have not come across any problems thus far, with the exception of the Array Out of Bounds when offering a contract (not a game killer), and the game really slowing on match days...which is a minor annoyance, and one I'm sure will get fixed.

Well done mate...

SI have for years been getting away with selling us the same game, with a few new features already. And then some "smartie" comes along and suggests that they don't even add these few new features.

Erm sorry mate but... shouldn't a game that you pay good money for already be working properly? Only reason this messed up scenario exists is because we the consumers allow developers to publish half baked tosh, with our misguided loyalty.

I'm fed up of paying full price for enhancement packs.

If FM10 isn't a completely new game from the bottom up. I will definitely boycott.

---------------------------

That makes perfect sense, why would they take a tried and tested game that everyone loves and make a completely new game which people may hate? That isn't the smartest business strategy is it? You may say 'well it doesn't look like everyone loves it looking at these forums'-well, only a tiny percentage of people that have the game come on here, and most people only write articles when they aren't happy, the one's that are happy just carry on playing. This is easily the best FM in my opinion. I sympathise with people who can't play it but for me, I am delighted at this edition. Keep up the excellent work SI.

and the long shots and keeper assist 'problems'? Keeper assists maybe, long shots? Nope. Haven't seen it.

and the long shots and keeper assist 'problems'? Keeper assists maybe, long shots? Nope. Haven't seen it.

Blinkers. On. Locked.

Look around the forums, lots of people have issues with it.

I don't see what's wrong with more features and less bugs, surely that's what SI should constantly be aiming to achieve.

Its badly needed. They've been adding new features starting with FM07 and not bothering to fix niggling issues since that time too. Now most have them have cascaded and we're left with a lot of annoying/bad errors and flaws:

Corner Cheat

One on Ones

Dumb Defenders

Poorly optimised coding that slows the game down on match days even on good computers.

Overly complicated tactics

Array Access out of Bounds errors when trying to offer contracts to people.

Injuries! Always they balance it in a patch and then in the new release they've ruined them again!

I could go on and on.

match days are nice and smooth for me.

i've never noticed the corner cheat for the last two FMs so presumably you dont have to invoke it.

dumb defenders arent too much of a problem although i have noticed that a long kick downt he centre of the pitch by my keeper (reina) always lands at the feet of my striker who gets a chance.

i dont find tactics overly complicated. they've always been slight tweaks of the previous FMs.

i get the array access out of bounds error but it doesn't cause the whole game to never work again. just reload it and everythngs fine again. having said that ive only got them 5 or so times in the last year. taking into account the amount of hours i apply tot he game its not very regular so must be quite difficult to find and fix.

with the patch injuries dont seem to be a problem. i never played the game without the patch though.

and the long shots and keeper assist 'problems'? Keeper assists maybe, long shots? Nope. Haven't seen it.

is the keeper assist problem where keepers get lots of assits? if so i get that. seems defenders dont mark the strikers when its a long punt up field.

To add the injuries thing - my striker just got "a bruised head" and is out for two weeks.

Two weeks? "bruised"? What?

is the keeper assist problem where keepers get lots of assits? if so i get that. seems defenders dont mark the strikers when its a long punt up field.

Yes, thats it. Keepers can pick out a strikers little toe from 80 yards away, while defenders give them a 10 yard start before they start to try and tackle them.

@ wwfan - maybe because its not explained anywhere in the game exactly what each slider does and what they do in combination with other sliders.

When it takes a 49 page document to fully explain the tactics system, surely that's a sign that things have gone too far?

For me the problem is not in the size of the document required, which, after all, I managed to compress into a two page crib sheet. The issue has been that x number of people have been playing FM in an exploitative manner for so long that the sheer logic of how the sliders actually work escapes them. This has happened due to previous manuals and MEs not being up to scratch. TT&F developed because it was recognised that even the current manual was lacking in tactical explanation and was pre-written to aid people's understanding of the arrowless ME. Once you understand TT&F everything tactically is easy and logical. However, it has to be extensive in order to help people move away from the exploitative method of playing to the logical one. Once they grasp it, they will never need to read a tactical guide again, unless the whole system changes. In that respect, its length is irrelevant.

As for the long shots/overly accurate GK kicks, I agree they are an issue. Long shots could be toned down ever so slightly, in accuracy as well as amount, but I don't think it is far off. I think there are more long range efforts in football than people realise. The GK kick is a far bigger issue as it undoes every tactical plan. I'm pretty certain of why it is happening and I assume it will be fixed for a later patch. However, what people don't realise about the ME is how one fix knocks on to influence other areas. It is not so simple as just to improve the previous ME as every change needs to be balanced out to ensure it doesn't skew the overall feeling of the match.

^ You don't see an issue with defenders being incompetent?

You must be kidding. There are so many issues still in 9.1 - the main ones being the stupid long shots and the chronically inept defenders that allow goalkeepers to get over ten assists a season.

I am not kidding, I clearly said that was my experience with the game. The long shots thingie seems more of tactical issue than a bug. I too notice a few frustrating pot shots a match, but I'm not convinced there's so many of them that it's unrealistic. Certainly not an issue for me. I've rarely experienced the keeper assist issue. I've manager a couple of goals that way and never conceded them. Both examples never occurred to me as "issues". Again, my experience.

Blinkers. On. Locked.

Look around the forums, lots of people have issues with it.

---------------------

I didn't say it didn't exist, I just haven't encountered it on my game.

^ You don't see an issue with defenders being incompetent?

Only with regards to the long ball from the keeper. My defensive record is usually excellent.

Only with regards to the long ball from the keeper. My defensive record is usually excellent.

To be fair wwfan, that's you, the creator of the TT&F Tactical bible