Lack of Feedback?

This thread has developed out of the "Frustrated Beyond Belief" thread also in this forum. It seems there are a numbe rof players who have some issues with the game at the moment, and specifically with setting up tactics and finding out what works.

In that thread I point out what I believe is the biggest problem with the current system:

"...the utter lack of useful feedback makes things worse. For example, we are told that keeping it tight and limiting your attacking play for the first 15 games is the best idea. We're told that narrow mentality ranges is the best way to go. We're told that squads will take time to gel and this can have serious adverse effects on the team. We're told a dozen different things to consider. And who tells us this? A group of people who've been developing the TT&F for months. More importantly, what doesn't tell us this? The game itself. That's poor design."

I applaud the work of the whole TT&F team but I find it a little worrying that it took a team of 6 people working over a couple of months to create that document. Even at only an hour each a day that still equates to over 350 man hours of work.

Now, the point of this thread isn't to moan about the problem. I want to be constructive. What I hope to achieve is:

1. Identify what problems, if any, people have had trying to set up tactics.

2. Suggest possible fixes to the game to help players out.

As I said in the quote above, the main problem for me is I feel the game doesn't provide sufficient feedback to help me figure out what to change about my tactics. If I'm losing a lot of goals to quick strikers playing with a high defensive line I know that going deeper is probably going to help. But in other, less obvious, areas I don't think there's any help available in the game to let us know where we're going wrong.

So if I'm not getting enough possession I have a choice of Tempo, Passing, CF, FWR, CD and Marking settings to alter to try to either win possession back more effectively or retain possession once I have it. But which one? Should it be trial and error? A certain amount will be required, of course, but at the moment any decisions are based entirely on guesswork because the game doesn't give us any way of knowing.

Note, it's important not to turn the game into a "click to win" game, as wwfan pointed out in the other thread, but I think there's more room to provide more effective feedback.

One solution would be increased and more effective use of the Assistant Manager. He already helps out during the game, though his feedback is often pretty bizarre, but the idea is good. For example, squad gelling after lots of new signings is a problem but there's no indication of that in the manual or in-game. Maybe the AM team harmony could be represented graphically or in a similar way to individual morale. This should probably be based on the AM's attributes.

That's just one example of a problem and possible solution. Does anyone have any more or am I completely wrong about the frustrations of poor feedback?

I think the main issue of the game for me is that it is harder (much harder) than real life, and it seems that your changes go un-noticed in the game.

Also, there should be a screen for in-game use which analyzes where threats are coming from (i.e where crosses are coming from etc etc). this would let you have a quick think and tinker with your tactics a little.

The Pro-zone on CM was a little like this and helped alot.

It's really not that difficult. A bit of trial and error, throw in some patients and common sense and some idea about real life tactics and you will do well.

I have noticed a few Common factors regarding people who succeed on FM:-

Articulate

Patient

Logical thinkers

Have good knowledge of football IRL

Determined

Common factor regarding people who fail:-

Inpatient

poor temperament

Lack of football knowledge

Lack of common sense

Unrealistic goals

Looking for killer tactics

I don't aim this at everyone but it applies to a lot of people. Reading the forums you do tend to see a pattern developing...

It's really not that difficult. A bit of trial and error, throw in some patients and common sense and some idea about real life tactics and you will do well.

I have noticed a few Common factors regarding people who succeed on FM:-

Articulate

Patient

Logical thinkers

Have good knowledge of football IRL

Determined

Common factor regarding people who fail:-

Inpatient

poor temperament

Lack of football knowledge

Lack of common sense

Unrealistic goals

Looking for killer tactics

I don't aim this at everyone but it applies to a lot of people. Reading the forums you do tend to see a pattern developing...

This is what the purpose of my tactic thread is about. I have not claimed to have an all purpose killer tactic. I have stated that it may not work for all teams but have given details that I think will help with knowing the type of player to use.

I have not had any replies for people wanting to try it probably because I have not uploaded the tactic as I want people to learn what I have done by replicating it rather than just getting my .tac file and going.

My thread is here and I hope it will get looked at as I would like to see if it can help others http://community.sigames.com/showthread.php?t=66377

So if I'm not getting enough possession I have a choice of Tempo, Passing, CF, FWR, CD and Marking settings to alter to try to either win possession back more effectively or retain possession once I have it. But which one? Should it be trial and error? A certain amount will be required, of course, but at the moment any decisions are based entirely on guesswork because the game doesn't give us any way of knowing.

I know you're only using possession as an example but that's what we're working with. I bolded the part I disagree with completely. The 2D tells you everything you need to know. Whether or not the changes you make to adjust will have an effect is dependent on other variables besides the tactical settings (motivation, morale, etc.)

If I watch the 2D I see the opposition knocking it amongst themselves, playing defensively. Match stats reflect this and Action Zones highlight alot of possession in the midfield and defensive areas as well as individual stats showing certain combinations of their players having alot of passes, usually the full backs and central midfielders. What I see in the 2D is them having time and space to knock it amongst themselves. So

1. I push up the defensive line. Without having to adjust Closing Down this will get my team closing down further up the pitch. I watch the 2D again

2. I still see their full backs and central midfielders having too much time so I increase the Closing Down settings of my MCs and/or ML/MR in a flat 442 to put more pressure on

3. But there still is too much space so I increase the defensive line more and/or increase the mentalities of my midfield 4 (and team as a whole if desired) to push them further up the pitch

4. If the FBs are still finding too much space I move the ML/MR to AML/AMR positions to put pressure on

5. If my players are dropping off the opposition players who are deeper I alter my marking system, maybe switch to Man > Tight

6. If this is still creating too much separation from their deeper MC I consider dropping a striker deeper and/or assigning him to specific man mark said deeper MC

7. If the separation is lateral as well I increase Team Width if I'm comfortable with the effect that will have when attacking

8. If I really want to put the squeeze on and have the players to do so (workrate, stamina etc) I use OI to get players closing down in groups. If the opposition are good enough to bypass this and leave my team looking like headless chickens I turn them back off.

9. If pushing up the D Line has left me exposed to long balls over the top I alter my GK settings to have him act more like a sweeper keeper (Up his mentality, up his Closing Down as far as I remember)

Of course there are limits in that once you hit Defensive Line 20 and Mentalities 20 across the board that's as far up the pitch as you can get, and once I max out Closing Down that's my limit.

So that's just one example of why my team is not keeping possession. There could be other reasons as you mentioned but again it's about looking at the 2D which is your feedback and making decisions based on that.

Don't get me wrong there is still the black box of Creative Freedom but it's one you just have to take on spec. On 08 I would have said Free Role was another but I can definitely see a difference when a player is given a free role on 09 (maybe just me though). But it is as you say trial and error as to whether or not certain set ups will work, but isn't real life football like that? Manager tries something, sees it isn't working and makes adjustments.

One solution would be increased and more effective use of the Assistant Manager. He already helps out during the game, though his feedback is often pretty bizarre, but the idea is good. For example, squad gelling after lots of new signings is a problem but there's no indication of that in the manual or in-game. Maybe the AM team harmony could be represented graphically or in a similar way to individual morale. This should probably be based on the AM's attributes.

As before I know you are using gelling as an example but as with possession I don't see the issue. The assistant manager explicitly tells you in the feedback about players having gelling issues and language problems. But it is up to you to figure out if that is the root cause of his poor performance or if it is tactical or if it is team talk selections or if it just the randomness of the game. That's the whole point of a football management simulation. Try to figure out where you are going wrong and make adjustments.

As I have outlined in the "Frustrated beyond..."-thread, my issue with the game is that I feel that the GUI isn't very intuitive when it comes to formulating and communicating the solution I want to apply in order to rectify a perceived problem that I have identified on the pitch. In real life I would have told Re-Coker to perform action X instead of action Y in order to achieve result Z. Obviously the in game Reo-Coker have no idea what variable Z is, and can't react accordingly in order to achieve result Z since he is a binary being without any intelligence. He only reacts to the inputs I give and try to stay within the borders that I set.

This is where I think the GUI fails. It sort of sides with the binary. It is not good enough of a filter when it comes to merging Reo-Coker's binary universe with my own, and I am left feeling frustrated because I need to expend too much efforts learning about his universe instead of focusing on the problem at hand, which is achieving result Z. I just don't grasp how to apply the solution I have in my head when the tools given to me desn't seem to fit no matter how I try. This is where TT&F and other efforts like come in. The provide us with yet another raster to use when peeking into Reo-Cokers world. Massive thanks to the brilliant people behind those efforts. You do good work for the community. I just feel frustrated in not being able to communicate on my own terms, using a language I understand.

I will try and formulate some sort of alternative to the current method of interacting with the game, but I fully understand it is very difficult. Perhaps it would suffice to make the effects and relationships between settings a bit more apparent with more direct and accurate feedback in some form? I'll give it some more though for sure.

I've been reading swede's thread over the last 2 days and decided to come in here and give my 2 pennies worth but having just read the post from swede above i think i can just say: THAT ^

I also think that a little more feedback on squad harmony and gelling outside of the matchday screen would be helpful since in my experinces so far this has had a much more marked impact on my squad's perfomances than in previous years.

Anyway glad to see things are going a little better for your game this time out swede and KUTGW guys, glad to see this is mostly constuctive still!

I've been reading swede's thread over the last 2 days and decided to come in here and give my 2 pennies worth but having just read the post from swede above i think i can just say: THAT ^

I also think that a little more feedback on squad harmony and gelling outside of the matchday screen would be helpful since in my experinces so far this has had a much more marked impact on my squad's perfomances than in previous years.

Anyway glad to see things are going a little better for your game this time out swede and KUTGW guys, glad to see this is mostly constuctive still!

Thank you Knoxy! Big game against Everton coming up, so we'll see if there's any improvement in my fortunes.

I was thinking about this whole squad gelling thing earlier on and i think part of the issue i have is not that there's not enough feedback, although an option to ask your assman his opinion on the squad harmony as opposed to waiting for him to tell you about individuals on the match screen or judging based on the board confidence screen would be nice. Instead i think part of the problem is that i cannot think of any way to help solve the problem of a squad that isn't "gelled" other than avoiding getting into that situation in the 1st place, ie not buying players with different mentalities or from different nations or whatever. But surely thats part of being a successful football manager, turning a group of individuals into a working unit. I'm not sure where i'm going with this really, i don't really know if it would be feasible to include things like team socials or any of the number of little things that help "gel" a squad. Maybe you could have settings for your assman's interactions with the team such as his strictness and time spent on more "social" or "non football" activities, then you could even have his man management/working with youngsters stats play a part.

I might be rambling, it is fairly late/early now, anyone think any of this makes any kind of sense?

My elder brother introduced this game to me when I was still a little boy, when ManUtd still had Cantona and Solskjaer wasn't even in the game. Since then, we have been playing the game series until he stopped before CM became FM due to study committments.

He picked up FM09 just 1 week ago, and he called me to say that he didn't understand how to play the game. Everything was so confusing and overwhelming he didn't know how to react. He ended up following the Assistant manager's feedback closely and still couldn't get ManUtd to finish in the top 10.

I felt sad for him. He was an avid follower of the FM series and football, so it was disappointing to see him get so frustrated over a game. I showed him the TT&F forum, but to be honest, there is so much text there that he didn't read much of it.

I had played the series all the way, so I'm able to grasp FM09 but I'm still struggling on how to make a basic tactic. I don't even know if I'm playing the football that I have visioned of my team playing.

I feel my brother is a good example of a new player coming to terms with the new FM series. In conclusion, if you are a beginner, you are bound to be lost. And if you don't put in the effort to pick it up, you will slowly lose interest in the game.

Nearly every game has a tutorial to teach you the fundamentals of the game. Fallout 3 teaches you how to use the VATS system and how to pick up stuff etc. WoW teaches you how to move around, do simple quests and perform tasks.

The tutorials are designed in a way similar to the way an appetizer is used to wet your palate and yearn for the main course. It is not some text that you read from the forums.

Its time FM has more feedback in the game to teach you how to set up a basic tactic, how to react under certain situations and how to manage your squad. With more features in the game, it is getting more and more confusing for the new gamer.

Thanks to TT&F thread for the tactical advice given out and to Mike J for raising this up.

It's really not that difficult. A bit of trial and error, throw in some patients and common sense and some idea about real life tactics and you will do well.

I have noticed a few Common factors regarding people who succeed on FM:-

Articulate

Patient

Logical thinkers

Have good knowledge of football IRL

Determined

Common factor regarding people who fail:-

Inpatient

poor temperament

Lack of football knowledge

Lack of common sense

Unrealistic goals

Looking for killer tactics

I don't aim this at everyone but it applies to a lot of people. Reading the forums you do tend to see a pattern developing...

I agree to some extent. However, where I can't agree is on the "logical thinkers" and "good knowledge of football URL" points.

In theory you should be correct, but the increasingly abstract and unhelpful interface gets in the way of trying to fix problems, as does the 3D match engine (and the 2D one to a lesser degree).

Logical deduction can only work if based on sound premises. Unfortunately the GUI and the lack of explanation of what the sliders do makes forming any premise extremely difficult and only possible through trial and error. To further illustrate the example and show why the real life football knowledge wouldn't be a great help can you imagine how Wenger or Ferguson would approach FM09? They have all the knowledge but the game puts barriers in their way through how it represents the tactical options and the matches.

I've been thinking about this a lot recently and wondering exactly what instructions managers give to their players in training. How accurate are the sliders in terms of how managers communicate with their players IRL? I suspect even things like passing length aren't explicitly told to players but rather come out of the overall approach to the game. So Wenger's training regimes will emphasise passing and moving, close control and quick thinking, which naturally leads to a short passing game and a certain overall mentality. I just don't see him lining his players up in training and saying: "Kolo, use direct passing; Cesc, use your discretion; Samir, short passing only!"

Obviously concessions have to be made since it's a computer game and not real life but I hope that illustrates the reason why real life football knowledge isn't necessarily an advantage. What's much more useful is knowledge of the game engine and how the inerface works which can often have very little to do with real life. People who can construct good FM tactics won't be tactical geniuses in the real world - they've simply learned the FM system better than others (or got lucky).

Take the 3D engine. That should be the main method to diagnose problems. It's very good for figuring out why and how a team isn't getting posession or watching the movement of players. But there are far too many elements that aren't adequately represented yet. When my players miss tackles or misplace passes it's often difficult to tell of the animation showing that is accurate or whether it's just an abstract representation of the underlying match engine. If I struggle to tell what's an individual error and what's a tactical one, that causes problems.

The game should have different levels(difficult levels if you want to call it) when it comes to feedback from the scouts(scouting opponents) and assistant feedback. So some people(like me) who doesnt like sitting all the day carefully analyzing every small detail of opponents should be able to play the game help of the advice of the assistent.

Just becouse a there is few experts in the forum on reading the A.I should´nt mean that the rest have to adopt to their way of playing the game. This game is becoming less and less enjoyable becouse it sort of turns out to a full-time job playing it. Making the scout and assistent feedback better is a way of putting the game on right track again.

So, I have been giving this a little thought. As Mike J so eloquently points out above there are some issues with the sliders themselves and the mere fact that they exist. I won't go into that in any more detail right now. I agree with his opinions on the matter. An immediate improvement would of course be to change the scale. Why not textualize the implicit number system that everyone seems to use anyways? We talk in numbers when using the sliders, but it would be more efficient if the developers themselves made the scale transparent.

Secondly, I would love to have a graphical representation of Closing Down and Defensive Line on the "Chalkboard". Show colored zones that show the rough area where a given player will start closing down based on the position of the ball carrier. That way I could much more easily identify overlapping areas which would help in identifying potential problem areas. I could recognize suspected issues or conflicts between players and the instructions I give them even before a match is played. I would then know what to look for in the ME. The same applies to the Defensive Line-setting. Seeing roughly where the defensive line will position itself in relationship to the other parts of the team would also be very helpful. As it is now, if I pull the D-Line back a bit to counter a pacy defender running on to balls, I have to guess how much to move the slider and try a few times until I feel the D-Line is where I first intended it to be.

Thoughts?

More to come I hope.

Interesting thoughts there Swede. I wouldn't want the game to become too easy to decipher since the challenge is in applying knowledge via the tactics system to generate results on the pitch.

But I think the defensive line point is a good one. A manager doesn't tell his defenders to push up 5% more or hold a "normal" defensive line. He shouts at them to drop back "to the edge of the box" or push up to "beyond the D" etc. The D-Line should be represented on the chalkboard, IMO. At the moment, if I want my defenders to drop back to the edge of the box I have to mess about with the slider until I get it right. Why? It should be a simple instruction.

Just thinking about the scale and number system we use. Is this now such an accepted convention that it should be added to the tactics system? Should we be able to modify the mentality, CF, passing etc, using either a slider or inputting a number into a box? I'm tempted to say no because I think the current system is part of the problem this thread and others are trying to identify and alleviate, but if the system was to stay it might not be a bad idea compared to messing about with sliders all the time.

I agree with this thread. The sliders make it hard to tell your players what to do. I think part of the problem (other than too many notches) is that a single slider affects multiple aspects of the game, and that a single aspect of the game is affected by multiple sliders.

What I mean by this is best shown with examples.

Mentality affects player positioning, runs, passing choices, etc.

Passing is affected by Mentality, Creative Freedom, TTB, Tempo, Passing Style, etc.

This makes it hard to get players to do what you want - the tactical options need changing to be clearer.

I also think that there should be more emphasis on team tactics and less on players. Also that players shouldn't stick to their individual instructions so rigidly. For example, if width is set high your full backs tend to stand to the outside of the opposition wingers, which is ridiculous.

I know many people who deny there is an issue here and try to present solutions to those of us who don't get along with the tactical aspect of FM mean it in the best way. But just the fact that it isn't a problem for you does not mean it isn't a problem.

I fully agree with those who say the sliders are too ambiguous, that one slider may affect multiple aspects of the tactical game and that multiple sliders may affect a single aspect. It is just simply too much to comprehend.

To suggest a solution I could not give any detailed ideas, but I do think an overall more intuitive approach to the whole tactics area of FM is desirable. This does not mean that it has to become easier, it just has to become easier to comprehend. Possibly we could come up with a creative and effective way to visually reflect the effect of tactics rather than ambiguous arrows or a slider bing on 1, 19 or anywhere in between.

Agree with most people in this thread. I like a challenge in a game, but is has to be realistic. I have a busy job and busy life, so when I am home, I want to sit, relax and play a little bit.

But the currect mindset of the game is to steer everything a player does. A normal coach talks to its player and says: ok, left winger, push forward when in posession, but defend when not. Now I have to tell the player at halftime to attack 5% more, and the defenders to defend 5% less. What is the next step? Actually control the player?

A coach heavily depends on the ability to think for the player. I want to tell a winger: ok, push forward alot. And I tell my defending midfielder: support the defence, and when in posession move up the field a bit. Not this level of detail.

Though I can undrestand that inability to achieve something that others easily do may bring frustration, I cannot agree that lack of feedback is real problem.

Let's start from the fact that this game is about MANAGEMENT. No one in management can expect that there is "one button fixes all" solution. Moreover, even correct solution takes time to work. If you think you just cannot find that magic combination, you will never succeed in this game.

To continue, we should observe carefully what's really happening. Watch game, check what happens when you tweak one slider at a time, etc. Most importantly, we have to think about what we see and about comments we get. If you don't want to spend time on it, then tell yourself: "I rather just play, enjoy, and don't bother to understand what and why. After all, it's just game and as time passes by I will pick up a few things anyway".

Next, and probably most important thing - don't blame tactical side for everything. You have to pay a lot of attention to man management. Media, teamtalks, training, players' characters, etc. - all important. And be patient.

One more thing. To say that this game is more complicated than real life - it's not even a bad joke. Try to coach someone (team, not individual) - you will see that some of your brilliant ideas don't work, or work too slowly, or simply not brilliant at all. People often don't understand things that seem elementary for you; you run out of words and people think you are idiot; after that whatever you say or do does not work. That's real life. In FM all it takes - get a cup of tea, think carefully, watch matches, read forum and think, think, think.

@kolobok,

But I strongly disagree that we should be semi-handicapped in our ability to communicate our ideas into action with an interface that is not really telling me what I want to know. It is like trying to set a tactic for a real world team and not being able to use any sort of reference point to make the instructions more sensible. I would like to actually see where the D-Line would be if I set it to a certain "notch". I still maintain that closing down zones could be shown on the tactics board in the game to give a general idea of when a player will start closing the ball carrier down. That way you'd know a little more precisely what you are asking your player to do.

I don't want the game to make all my instructions work at once. If I give a instruction to someone, I want to make sure that I have given the right instruction. As it is now, I really don't know if the instruction really is what I want to say because I have to set a slider to a certain position and then hope it was roughly what I wanted to say. I want to observe the game and see if what I'm trying to do is working, but now I have to not only see if my idea is working, I also have to try and figure out if the game is implementing my idea at all. That introduces a lot uncertainty that I think is limiting for quite a few gamers.

... I would like to actually see where the D-Line would be if I set it to a certain "notch".

You cannot see difference between DL = 7 and DL = 15? Everything in between is just somwhere in between:) You want to know what position of DL slider suit your players more? Well DL does not work alone. If you think about DL as purely place where your defs should be, then you are wrong conceptually. You have friendlies to figure it out. If it's not enough, make a save where you would test ideas and check them, and then apply them to your career game.

I still maintain that closing down zones could be shown on the tactics board in the game to give a general idea of when a player will start closing the ball carrier down. That way you'd know a little more precisely what you are asking your player to do.

It entirely depends on what your other settings are + players you have. Watch matches - you will see even more than you want.

I don't want the game to make all my instructions work at once. If I give a instruction to someone, I want to make sure that I have given the right instruction. As it is now, I really don't know if the instruction really is what I want to say because I have to set a slider to a certain position and then hope it was roughly what I wanted to say. I want to observe the game and see if what I'm trying to do is working, but now I have to not only see if my idea is working, I also have to try and figure out if the game is implementing my idea at all. That introduces a lot uncertainty that I think is limiting for quite a few gamers.

Let's accept the fact that this game is not a cookbook, where there is a recipe for each meal. It's not like "put mentality at 5, CD at 7..." and you will see what you want.

If you don't see your idea is not working, there are two possibilities. Either your idea is wrong from the beginning, or you are doing something wrong on implementation part.

The latter case is relatively easy - you will see why your idea is not working. The only catch here to understand whether you can adjust sliders to make it work, or your players are not capable for the idea. E.g. if you ask slow DM with high stamina to close down often, you will see opposition passing by and him chasing opponent with no success.

The former case is something that create most of our problems: we believe that our ideas are correct and blame game (SI, referee, whoever) for the fault. E.g. many people believe that switching to 4-2-4 with "All Out Attack" should work the same magical way as it seems to work for AI. When it does not work, we start complaining. The catch here to understand that simply switching to a different formation is not nearly enough. Another example, which cost me a lot of pain is through balls. Simply because I thought of them differently than what they mean in the game. The solution here is: read what people think, think for yourself, apply others experience combined with your thinking and think again.

Bottom line: stop thinking that you know how it should be. Accept the game (life) how it is. Want to learn - learn, but accept the fact that you might be wrong in your assessment. That's exactly as in real life.

Well, I just can't seem to get my points across it seems, and apologise for my clumsy communication skills. I'm not a native English speaker. I think you just misunderstood just about everything I tried to say.

I am not a native speaker either, and I have seen posts like yours here for at least 2 years. Details aside, they all go to one point: my idea(s) is not working and the game does not tell me why. My answer is: if it told us exactly why, it would be the most boring game on earth. The ability to SEE things separates Sir Alex from Conference level coach more than anything else. So simply accept the fact that you (or me for that matter) are not the best manager in the world and if you want to become one of the best - work on it. As for feedback in general - just compare FM07 and FM09 and you will see a huge difference.

It's really not that difficult. A bit of trial and error, throw in some patients and common sense and some idea about real life tactics and you will do well.

I have noticed a few Common factors regarding people who succeed on FM:-

Articulate

Patient

Logical thinkers

Have good knowledge of football IRL

Determined

Common factor regarding people who fail:-

Inpatient

poor temperament

Lack of football knowledge

Lack of common sense

Unrealistic goals

Looking for killer tactics

I don't aim this at everyone but it applies to a lot of people. Reading the forums you do tend to see a pattern developing...

What a ridiculous post. I haven't yet posted on this subject, but if you are questioning how articulate people having problems are, you might want to make sure all your spellings are correct (patience, not patients - doctors see them).

I would like to think I tick all the boxes in the 'successful' camp, but I am really struggling with Newcastle, and I cannot get any consistency.

I have gone throught the TT&F to see what the problems are and tried various tweaks to no avail - my players motivation seems to be a key factor, as I am inexperienced, but I can't do anything about that.

I am not a native speaker either, and I have seen posts like yours here for at least 2 years. Details aside, they all go to one point: my idea(s) is not working and the game does not tell me why. My answer is: if it told us exactly why, it would be the most boring game on earth.

I think that is the point most of us are trying to make. It is not what you try to make it sound like, wanting the solutions presented to us on a plate. It is wanting to have a clearer visual representation of tactics than sliders. I think the ideas that Swede presented, for example being able to see where someone would pick up an opponent instead of just the closing down slider.

Another example from an old old football manager game (not CM/FM) is the ability to draw a box around the tactical position of a player that indicates where this player is free to move. If you want a completely free role, you draw the box in on the full pitch in the tactics screen. If you want a player to move around freely on the midfield you draw a large box on the midfield.

I am not saying that this example is perfect or flawless, it was not, and it was a feature in a game that is now roughly 10 years old, but these are the kind of solutions that would help making tactics more intuitive. And I think that is the keyword, tactics do not have to become easier, but it is the fact that we can no longer create tactics intuitively.

Bottom line: stop thinking that you know how it should be. Accept the game (life) how it is. Want to learn - learn, but accept the fact that you might be wrong in your assessment. That's exactly as in real life.

If you read the thread fully you'll notice one thing about the people who are getting frustrated - they all know they're wrong. They all know something isn't right with their tactics. At no point has anyone accused the game of cheating or anything similar.

The problem isn't an inability to accept we're wrong, it's the complete lack of usable information to allow us to fix the problem. And by lack of usable information I'm not referring to the match view. It's what we do with the information from watching the matches that's the problem.

You talk about not being able to see the difference between DL 7 and DL 15. Of course we can, but that isn't the point. We should be able to tell the defenders to set the DL at a point on the pitch. Of course, how well they acheive that is up to your mentality settings, closing down etc, but the basic starting point should be explicit, not cloaked behind an abstract slider.

The same goes for a lot of settings. I think the idea to graphically represent many features is a good one. Of course, it wouldn't be 100% accurate because those settings are influenced by various other settings but it would at least show us roughly what's happening.

You talk about not being able to see the difference between DL 7 and DL 15. Of course we can, but that isn't the point. We should be able to tell the defenders to set the DL at a point on the pitch. Of course, how well they acheive that is up to your mentality settings, closing down etc, but the basic starting point should be explicit, not cloaked behind an abstract slider.

And here you are missing the point. It's not chess, where you can put a knight in a certain field. Sliders have in effect 5 positions: 2 extremes, and 3 in between (roughly "defending", "balanced", "attacking" if I can use wwfan's terms). Everything between these positions is just tuning that cannot be based on anything but observation.

Ok, suppose we can tell players "DL at center line" instead of saying DL 10 or 15. Would it make a difference? Not at all! Closing down mode that shows where players would pick up ...etc. will cause even more frustration. Because 50% of time he would not do as asked. You cannot (in real life) tell a player "pick up their winger at center line" simply because your player would be confused what to do if the winger is already half way to the area. So you would need to clarify your instruction based on "what if" scenario. That would bring so much complication to the game (though I would love to see it more complicated) that people you are talking about would pray to bring sliders back.

What bothers me most of all is that the game has been out for less than a week. Yet people act like just in 5 days they are supposed to crack the game down and they have already complain that "nothing work" and the game should tell them what's wrong. I am so glad that the game is not that easy.

"If you don't see your idea is not working, there are two possibilities. Either your idea is wrong from the beginning, or you are doing something wrong on implementation part."

You man not realize it but this is EXACTLY the point. I can accept that my tactic/decision/idea is rubbish and as Mike said nobody here is criticizing the game or in particular the match engine. I will happily say that in my short time playing FM09 it is the best and most complete football management game to date.

The problem arises from an inability to easily convey our tactics etc onto the game. All we are suggesting is that the implementation part be made more logical, not easier, nobody wants an "I WIN" button, part of the reason we all love these games is the challenge.

This is generally a problem that afflicts players more at the start of the game, since after months of play players have built up a better understanding of the differences between the arbitrary values of the sliders or if not there are a bulk of helpful people on forums like these that have and can pass this wisdom on. However, this shouldn't be the case, the challenge should come from learning when to set my D-line deep or how far to push it etc etc NOT from working out which of 20 notches on a slider equate to what i want.

I am not a native speaker either, and I have seen posts like yours here for at least 2 years. Details aside, they all go to one point: my idea(s) is not working and the game does not tell me why. My answer is: if it told us exactly why, it would be the most boring game on earth. The ability to SEE things separates Sir Alex from Conference level coach more than anything else. So simply accept the fact that you (or me for that matter) are not the best manager in the world and if you want to become one of the best - work on it. As for feedback in general - just compare FM07 and FM09 and you will see a huge difference.

This is a simulation right, it supposed to simulate real life? So, do you tell your players as a manager IRL to attack "two notches to right"? or Defend "12 notches from left?"

Or how do you tell your wingers to cut inside? IRL you just tell your wingers to cut inside while in FM09 you need to learn this "Visual Basic" code of putting sliders here and there to make it happen. I still dont know how... :-P

The slider system is the worst thing that have happened to CM/FM series IMO...

I am not a native speaker either, and I have seen posts like yours here for at least 2 years. Details aside, they all go to one point: my idea(s) is not working and the game does not tell me why. My answer is: if it told us exactly why, it would be the most boring game on earth. The ability to SEE things separates Sir Alex from Conference level coach more than anything else. So simply accept the fact that you (or me for that matter) are not the best manager in the world and if you want to become one of the best - work on it. As for feedback in general - just compare FM07 and FM09 and you will see a huge difference.

That is exactly not what I am trying to say. I want the tools I use to convey my ideas more closely reflect what a real manager has a t his disposal. I don't want the game to spell out exactly what I do worng. I want it to make the tools (sliders etc) more intuitive to use. I think that the way it is now is further from the real life than it actually has to be. I will still have to actually watch the game and see if my idea is working. It might not be immediatly apparent that it is working or not, but at least I can be reasonably assured that my players are actually trying to do what I want them to do.

The slider system is the worst thing that have happened to CM/FM series IMO...

Amen to that!

It would not only simplify the game, but make it more "human" if you could just comunicate with your players more like a real manager:

Instead of sliders, SI should use some sort of instructions a coach could give its players for every position and both aspects of the game (defensevely and attacking), and we would just chose which instructions to give each players and the global team instructions. The players decisions, vision, flair and plain common sense (which currently seems to lack) would "interpret" the instructions... just like IRL.

Just a thought anyway... (sorry about the english)

I've noticed that this point has been brought up since what? FM06-07? People have argued "realistic" un-aware that they are being hypocrites...

Those who have struggled bring up fine points about having to read a fifty page document just to get the very basics of tactical creation down, when a game should be somewhat pick-up-and-play. As such there's a niche crowd of "intelligent" (translation: nerds with too much time on their hands) people who enjoy the game but the rest of the "common" (translation: We have work, school, an hour on the game a day if we're lucky) people who can't/don't/won't have the time to study a new A-level course of information to learn the FM's representation of a 4-4-2.

Alex Ferguson or Arsne if they played FM would have seen their clubs relegated multiple times if they attempted to pull off the formation and tactics that they use IRL from the oft, because hey lets face it the game engine isn't that advanced, it's all limited to the settings that IT feels is correct. So things that would work IRL would probably not work very well in the game. Fergie's free flowing lovely football would be raped by FM. Ditto Arsne.

Now if someone would be so "intelligent" enough to attempt to counter this point by saying that they can create a tactic used by Fergie or Arsne I congratulate you at missing the point. (I said THEY would not be able to create it, not you after all. Wow I love being condensing like some of these guys can be...)

As pointed out unless you know the engine in and out or you get lucky, chances are you won't really improve without a helluva lot of study.

The other point is, people in both camps differ about the point of the game. One camp believes it's just that, a game, a vessel for enjoyable fun to come home to and enjoy the football management game. Others believe it is a simulation a "realistic" thing, it's not hard to tell which groups tend to enjoy it and which doesn't. Fm10 will be the interesting one to watch really because if it's still stagnating as some reviews have pointed out and/or if people are still frustrated so much by it (Fm08 was the first I've ever seen get polled as crap and too hard in my entire foruming years by an overwhelming majority) then maybe, just maybe instead of asking to be educated every year it would be a better use of money to get a football management sim that isn't catering to the "niche" crowd anymore?

As for myself personally, I enjoy FM09 somewhat, but having played since CM2 I can tell the way the series has been heading and disagree with that direction, which is probably a unique position given that people here seem to be CM2 fanatics who love the direction and hate the "i win" button. Whatever, do those people even game? I doubt it, they simulate after all... Niche crowd.

I think you said it very well isignedupfornorealreason. Even those who would go for a simulation style (I can't say I could choose between game or simulation myself) would still have to agree that there are better ways of going about creating tactics than with the sliders as they are now. As you said, I don't think many people at all want a "win now" button, but the key is to make the game tough (if you so choose by choosing a team that is a challenge) but easy to understand.

There's a difference between thinking up a good tactic and having the knowledge to apply it into FM08, FM09 and I really do think it would be worth SI spending time and effort on making that gap narrower.

the adage 'easy to learn, difficult to master' has been turned inside out by FM. i have personally never really had much trouble with doing well at the game or any of its previous versions but i fundamentally disagree with the lack of intuition with regards to tactical creation and instruction

Its time FM has more feedback in the game to teach you how to set up a basic tactic, how to react under certain situations and how to manage your squad. With more features in the game, it is getting more and more confusing for the new gamer.

Thanks to TT&F thread for the tactical advice given out and to Mike J for raising this up.

The TT&F guide is a formidable piece of work but it is, I feel, a crutch for a game design which really needs to be put to rest. Playing this game doesn't feel like real football at all. I don't think anyone at SI cares either; after all, we have all bought the game regardless of being less than satisfied with last year's offering.

My thoughts for the OP - the GUI needs to have a modern update, think web 2.0 and the like graphical representation rather than numerical stats and the necessity to click through different screens to get an answer. You would have intuitive drilldown boxes which allow you to give a player instructions based upon the section of the game you are in.

E.g. in the pre-match screen you will see your formation, left click on a player icon and a box will open near his name enabling you to adjust his instruction sliders. Right clicking could show you that individuals preferred style of play - likes to get forward, goes in two footed, plays in the hole etc.

Now - You can ally this to the opposing players formation, so when you see you see their team layout - right clicking will show the opposing players preferred moves, left clicking could show the positional opponent from your team and you would be able to select the action that you would want your player to utilise against the opp. That makes thing more intuitive (even if probably badly explained by myself)

So you play your game and get to half time and are taken back to the very clean and tidy screen of just yours and your opponents’ formation. This time, when you right click on any opponent players, you could have the options to show graphic indications (just different coloured lines on the pitch) of where that player has been running, his distribution, areas he has been tackled, areas he has avoided tackles and whatever you can think of. And again, a left click will open up the instructions for your player opposing him so you can deal with the match feedback that has been illustrated.

I think the weighting given to squad harmony is cockeyed, who really believes that a 25 year old player (for example) from France would take 1 YEAR to gel with his 'new' team mates?! I can understand the odd player with an unprofessional attitude but to make this such a critical area is rubbish.

Anyway cheers for reading, I have to say I'm really disappointed with the 09 offering and experience tells me that the next patch will fix the current bugs but cause more. I never even thought to consider it until now but, I will deffo be keeping an eye on 'The Other Game' and will give that one a go once it's ready.