Still too much micromanagement?

As with previous years, why do I need to tell a right back who has played 200 games at the same level, EXACTLY what to do to perform as a right back?

How about this as an option:

'Play your natural game'

Experienced players would then be easier to manage than youngsters, which would be realistic.

I'm pretty sick of players not having a clue what they are playing at.

That thread starts off as a totally different issue, but the same point I'm making hasn't been answered.

Let me get this right, you want to get rid of tactics?!?

No. Not at all. I don't think I need to tell an experienced professional exactly to the letter what to do.

Tactics are a team issue, you shouldn't need to have to tell John Terry how to play at centre back. He already knows.

I've never been a fan of the 'sliders' because there is very little intellegence in the players.

Tactics are '4-4-2, try and get it passed down the wings' with occasional special instructions to man mark a dangerous player or try and press on a weak link. Shooting from long range more when you know the 'keeper isn't great.

It's not telling every single player exactly how much to close down individually.

There's no need for the individual instructions to be as complex as they are to be realistic.

Spot on.

Always found it funny telling someone as experienced as Kevin Phillips how to play football.

Let me get this right, you want to get rid of tactics?!?

I can't speak for the OP, but in my opinion there should be less "notches" on many of the tactical options. I feel that there should be a single notch per text description.

There does seem to be a tendancy in the game that you have to tell every player exactly what to do. If you get it exactly right they play outstandingly. If you get it slightly wrong they're hopeless.

im tottally agreed with this post

I don't agree with the original post. The whole point of sports simulations is to manage your team and players. Your job as manager is not to tell individual players how to "play their position", it's to organize all the different parts of your team to be successful. Technically, the coaches are telling the players how to play their position. You are simply telling them how to use their talents and experience.

For example, you want to tell John Terry to "play center back". Well that means different things to different coaches. Under Mourinho, that meant stay back and don't attack. Under Big Phil that means go forward on occassion and join the attack (like Alex has this season for them).

What you suggest as reality, really isn't. No coach goes to their veteran player and says "go play center back". Why else do players go to training? Why does Gerrard and Torres and Ronaldo and Fabregas go to training if they know how to play already? It's to develop tactics and team chemistry.

Somebody like Gerrard is very experienced and can play alot of positions. Yet Benitez has Gerrard in central midfield, on the right wing, in a free role and as a second striker. Don't you think Benitez is telling Gerrard where to play and how to play? Isn't that what footie management is all about? He doesn't tell Gerrard "go play football".

trouble is, if we didnt have sliders, soon as we had good players tactical instructions would be lmited and it would be to easy to win, i think they are there to make the game harder.

As stated above, get them corect and your team will more than punch above there wait. this game isnt about weather you have a good footballing brain or good tactical instructions, it's just about knowing what beats the ME finding a flaw..

there need to be somthing new with tactics but im not sure what it is..

there should 3 settings for mentality and 3 for creative freedome

defensive

normal

attacking

ie Steven Gerrard on attacking compared to say Sammy clingan would seem like he is gung hoe, basicly so because he's a far better player...

CF

Little

normal

much

tackling has 3 settings. easy, normal, hard.

to make your team play in a manour that you wish should should depend alot more on other instrucions..

giving a player a free role should in reality over ride the CF and set it to full, how can you give a player a free role and not have him on full CF? it controdicts it's self..

But he doesn't need to tell him in QUITE so much detail.

Using the John Terry example. You tell him where to be at different set pieces, and possibly which striker yo want him to mark, but he has a natural game.

Mourinho will never ever have told him to 'play at 1/20 defensiveness, somewhere near the bottom of creative freedom, passing style level 4, closing down up to HERE and hard tackling.

And then do that for every player.

But he doesn't need to tell him in QUITE so much detail.

Using the John Terry example. You tell him where to be at different set pieces, and possibly which striker yo want him to mark, but he has a natural game.

Mourinho will never ever have told him to 'play at 1/20 defensiveness, somewhere near the bottom of creative freedom, passing style level 4, closing down up to HERE and hard tackling.

And then do that for every player.

i think every player has a different duty to perform at prem level, its just not doen in slider terms, but you could give one of your CB maybe Terry a more creative role in defence,

player who are better and have PA and CA should have more tactical options available to them, ie how many players in the world play like Ronaldo at utd. he can do things some players dream of. hitting a freekick for starters.

Gotta area with the OP, this is what has made the game frustrating rather than fun IMO.

The game has basically become Tweak Manager rather than Football Manager. It's not so much about building a team and trying to mould them to play a certain type of football it's become a case of spending ages tweaking sliders which somehow make exaggerated changes to the flow of the game.

It's not like you could tell a real player to play closing down 5 and passing 7. Basically the slider system takes away the beauty and fun of football and turns it into a chore, an excersice in trial and error.

Just add a 'Redknapp' button to the current interface. When you press it, it gets rid of all the current instructions and leaves you with two choices - 'Run around a lot' and 'Don't run around a lot'.

The fact that a manager like Redknapp exists is a trong argument for the OP. However, how does the game decide how John Terry or Rio Ferdinand or Sol Campbell play their natural game? It's a nice idea, but the real people have real human experience - it's not something that you can realy hope to code into the game.

i think every player has a different duty to perform at prem level' date=' its just not doen in slider terms, but you could give one of your CB maybe Terry a more creative role in defence,

player who are better and have PA and CA should have more tactical options available to them, ie how many players in the world play like Ronaldo at utd. he can do things some players dream of. hitting a freekick for starters.[/quote']

I'm not managing Chelsea, but I didn't think anyone on here would have heard of Paul Morgan!

Idea's stil lthe same though.

Paul Morgan has played hundereds of games at my level, and very sucesfully.

So why does he play like a schoolgirl in diving flippers??

Just add a 'Redknapp' button to the current interface. When you press it, it gets rid of all the current instructions and leaves you with two choices - 'Run around a lot' and 'Don't run around a lot'.

The fact that a manager like Redknapp exists is a trong argument for the OP. However, how does the game decide how John Terry or Rio Ferdinand or Sol Campbell play their natural game? It's a nice idea, but the real people have real human experience - it's not something that you can realy hope to code into the game.

No, but they perhaps wouldn't make so many silly mistakes, like standing watching as the ball sails ver their head, whilst the striker reacts twice as fast.

It needs simplifying.

Gotta area with the OP, this is what has made the game frustrating rather than fun IMO.

The game has basically become Tweak Manager rather than Football Manager. It's not so much about building a team and trying to mould them to play a certain type of football it's become a case of spending ages tweaking sliders which somehow make exaggerated changes to the flow of the game.

It's not like you could tell a real player to play closing down 5 and passing 7. Basically the slider system takes away the beauty and fun of football and turns it into a chore, an excersice in trial and error.

That's why they have pre-packaged tactics for you to choose from if you don't want to customize it.

Managers do tell them to play closing 5 and passing 7. How? For example, if in a game Gerrard is playing in central midfield, Rafa might tell him to play more forward on the pitch and to make the run outside more often to exploit a week left back. Players movement and tactics are largely regulated by manager in this game and in real life. Just like Babel being stuck out on the left for Liverpool. If he "played his natural game" he would move to the center of the pitch and try to act as a striker.

However, if you notice for each position, whether it be central defender, winger, midfielder, striker, each player has his own personality. Some central defenders are good at moving forward or making good long passes. Some are good at recovery tackles. This is their "natural game" and that shows through very nicely, without altering sliders.

That's why they have pre-packaged tactics for you to choose from if you don't want to customize it.

.

They don't work, and haven't ever.

No, but they perhaps wouldn't make so many silly mistakes, like standing watching as the ball sails ver their head, whilst the striker reacts twice as fast.

It needs simplifying.

Not it doesn't. Games should be designed for the highest level of player, not the lowest. If you want less micromanagement, then have your assistant control your game tactics for you, or use one of the 30 pre-programmed tactics options.

Sounds like you want a custom tactic for your team with custom results, without having to do the work to find just the right balance. Football is a professional sport like any other. Every little detail is evaluated over and over and over and the slightest adjustments are constantly made for every given player.

They don't work, and haven't ever.

Luckily you have to option to customize each players slider then. Sounds like you want those tactics to give you 3-0 victories in every match. Sounds like Championship manager 93-94.

Honestly, I don't even use any of those tactics. I use a 3-4-3, which isn't even listed. It takes alot of time and work to get it to work properly, but eventually it works just fine. I just have to tweak each player on the pitch.

Mentality:

Ultra Defensive, Defensive, Balanced, Attacking, All-out attack/gung-ho

Creative Freedom:

Very conservative, Slightly conservative, Possession based, Much, Full

That's how I think sliders should work.

There must be billions of possibilities in their current guise, which is ridiculous to be honest.

Someone tell me the point of having 20 "mentality" notches, the difference between say 16 and 17, and how a real manager would convey this to his players in the dressing room?...

"Right lads, we're going to play at mentality level 17 today rather than 16 like we did last week. Any questions?"

(Striker puts his hand up...)

"Em, yes boss... when did you turn into a nut-bar?"

Mentality:

Ultra Defensive, Defensive, Balanced, Attacking, All-out attack/gung-ho

Creative Freedom:

Very conservative, Slightly conservative, Possession based, Much, Full

That's how I think sliders should work.

There must be billions of possibilities in their current guise, which is ridiculous to be honest.

Someone tell me the point of having 20 "mentality" notches, the difference between say 16 and 17, and how a real manager would convey this to his players in the dressing room?...

"Right lads, we're going to play at mentality level 17 today rather than 16 like we did last week. Any questions?"

(Striker puts his hand up...)

"Em, yes boss... when did you turn into a nut-bar?"

How does he convey this? Simple. Let's say Reira is running up the left side of the pitch for Liverpool and just beat his man. He is approaching the byline and about to make a cross. Now Xabi Alonso (who plays a defensive midfield role) is moving forward on the pitch in support. He moves forward and maybe stops 10 yards outside the box and waits for the pass. Reira crosses, but Xabi gets tackled from behind by the other teams forward who is back tracking. So Rafa tells Xabi, "make your break 2 seconds earlier when you see Reira about to beat his man". This would allow him to move to say 8 yards outside the box and thus has a chance at a shot.

Since we don't have to ability to tell Xabi to "break 2 seconds earlier", we use the sliders. You can notice this all over this game. If you don't set the sliders just right, your passing is off. You might get tackled more in the midfield, or you might be just right and have free flowing passing.

I don't want this part of the game made simpler. It's regressing to an earlier era of Championship / Football manager.

Luckily you have to option to customize each players slider then. Sounds like you want those tactics to give you 3-0 victories in every match. Sounds like Championship manager 93-94.

Honestly, I don't even use any of those tactics. I use a 3-4-3, which isn't even listed. It takes alot of time and work to get it to work properly, but eventually it works just fine. I just have to tweak each player on the pitch.

no i don't.

Just not liking the current set up doesn't automatically mean I want to win 3-0 every week.

I just want the sliders to make some sort of sense where you can see the direct result.

Currently, it's a lottery unless you hve the time and inclination to spend an hour on each match.

How does he convey this? Simple. Let's say Reira is running up the left side of the pitch for Liverpool and just beat his man. He is approaching the byline and about to make a cross. Now Xabi Alonso (who plays a defensive midfield role) is moving forward on the pitch in support. He moves forward and maybe stops 10 yards outside the box and waits for the pass. Reira crosses, but Xabi gets tackled from behind by the other teams forward who is back tracking. So Rafa tells Xabi, "make your break 2 seconds earlier when you see Reira about to beat his man". This would allow him to move to say 8 yards outside the box and thus has a chance at a shot.

Since we don't have to ability to tell Xabi to "break 2 seconds earlier", we use the sliders. You can notice this all over this game. If you don't set the sliders just right, your passing is off. You might get tackled more in the midfield, or you might be just right and have free flowing passing.

I don't want this part of the game made simpler. It's regressing to an earlier era of Championship / Football manager.

So how do you tweak those sliders to make a player pass the ball half a second earlier then?

Or would you expect the player to learn from his mistake once in a while?

no i don't.

Just not liking the current set up doesn't automatically mean I want to win 3-0 every week.

I just want the sliders to make some sort of sense where you can see the direct result.

Currently, it's a lottery unless you hve the time and inclination to spend an hour on each match.

It don't think it's a lottery. There are many factors that determine your success in a match. Your tactics, the weather conditions, your current form, the pitch size, how tired your team is, your players, the other teams tactics, home or away. This gives you the ability to create tactics that can satisfy these requirements. It depends alot on the individual players you having playing positions. Not every player will be successful in every tactic. Its up to you to find the rights one that fit. Some players can play every match. Some get tired and only perform well with full rest.

This game isn't meant to be easy for beginners to just pick up and play. It's popular because it has a certain about of depth and sophistication which takes time to master. I've been playing for almost 15 years and have evolved the same tactic for the last 4-5 years. So all the tweaks and changes make sense and are simple to understand if you understand how the game works.

After awhile you find a tactic that you can use day in and day out that fits your squad. Then you don't have to spend an hour on each match. You can just move ahead and play and be successful. Just like in real life. It takes awhile to develop tactics and a squad to play those tactics.

The days of using these "magic tactics" that will make any team successful are long gone. You have to know how to make tactics that fit your squad and vice versa.

So how do you tweak those sliders to make a player pass the ball half a second earlier then?

Or would you expect the player to learn from his mistake once in a while?

How do you make him pass earlier? You could do lots of things. Increase the tempo slightly. Make that player slightly more attack minded. Put a different player in that position who has better attacking abilities, decision making, etc. Over the course of games you can tell a difference in the performance of individual positions on the pitch.

You ever watch Jermaine Pennant? The guy makes the same mistakes over and over and over. He doesn't learn. Why would I expect a little guy running around on the FM 2009 pitch to learn?

How does he convey this? Simple. Let's say Reira is running up the left side of the pitch for Liverpool and just beat his man. He is approaching the byline and about to make a cross. Now Xabi Alonso (who plays a defensive midfield role) is moving forward on the pitch in support. He moves forward and maybe stops 10 yards outside the box and waits for the pass. Reira crosses, but Xabi gets tackled from behind by the other teams forward who is back tracking. So Rafa tells Xabi, "make your break 2 seconds earlier when you see Reira about to beat his man". This would allow him to move to say 8 yards outside the box and thus has a chance at a shot.

Since we don't have to ability to tell Xabi to "break 2 seconds earlier", we use the sliders. You can notice this all over this game. If you don't set the sliders just right, your passing is off. You might get tackled more in the midfield, or you might be just right and have free flowing passing.

I don't want this part of the game made simpler. It's regressing to an earlier era of Championship / Football manager.

The simple fact is, there are far too many possibilities in the sliders.

Mentality x20

C.F x20

Passing style x20

Defensive line x20

Width x20

Closing down x20

With those 6 sliders alone there is 64,000,000 different ways of setting up your tactical sliders.

Then times that by 3 for tackling = 192,000,000

I'm not sat in front of FM at the minute and can't remember the rest, multiply 192,000,000 by whatever is next and then multiply that number by the next until all the sliders are accounted for....

I think it was worked out before at my request, or I might have read it somewhere and just been amazed at the possibilities.

What am I missing and I'll work it out?

Mentality (20), C.F (20), Defensive line (20), Width (20), passing (20), closing down (20), tackling (3)... My mind's gone blank

The simple fact is, there are far too many possibilities in the sliders.

Mentality x20

C.F x20

Passing style x20

Defensive line x20

Width x20

Closing down x20

With those 6 sliders alone there is 64,000,000 different ways of setting up your tactical sliders.

Then times that by 3 for tackling = 192,000,000

I'm not sat in front of FM at the minute and can't remember the rest, multiply 192,000,000 by whatever is next and then multiply that number by the next until all the sliders are accounted for....

I think it was worked out before at my request, or I might have read it somewhere and just been amazed at the possibilities.

What am I missing and I'll work it out?

Mentality (20), C.F (20), Defensive line (20), Width (20), passing (20), closing down (20), tackling (3)... My mind's gone blank

I think you're missing the goal of the game. It's not to find the best exact combination of those sliders to win 5-0 every single match regardless of conditions. It's to play reasonably well and be 90% close to ideal situation.

This simulates real life. Managers are constantly making slightly tweaks to players and tactics and even the best ones like Ferguson or Wenger or Mourinho aren't perfect.

I think you have to experiment. You can try moving the width to 18 and passing to 15 and closing down to 15 and tackling to 3, etc. See how your teams does. Then try 15, 15, 3 and see what difference that makes. Maybe you need a more explosive wing player on the left or right. So you go an go and buy one.

I make tactics completely from scratch. I buy and develop players to fit that tactic. I still lose games, but I also win alot. I still let in alot of goals, but I also score alot.

I'm successful too, that wasn't my point.

In my own opinion, the sliders offers too much flexibility and, especially to the newcomer, it can be nigh-on impossible to know where and/or how you are going wrong.

I accept the tactics as they are and can work with them to some degree of success, but I think they are a little complex at present.

I don't really understand what all the fuss is about. Having all the options is what makes this game so good!

When you watch sides play, it's clear sides have different ways of playing in many ways.

For example: Liverpool close down at will, so their closing down bar would be quite close to full, this would represent the manager saying 'put pressure on them', 'make us hard to beat and break down'.

Also, the passing is exactly the same, and it does vary for every individual.

I think every option given in the game is an option that can be used in real life. My only problem is with the 'creative freedom' and the 'free role', how do you know what players thrive off a free role? what players thrive off creative freedom? is there a way your assistant can tell you this?

I'm successful too, that wasn't my point.

In my own opinion, the sliders offers too much flexibility and, especially to the newcomer, it can be nigh-on impossible to know where and/or how you are going wrong.

I accept the tactics as they are and can work with them to some degree of success, but I think they are a little complex at present.

True. This is a good point. I can see how this could all be daunting to new players.

Does the game need a difficulty level? Some games have this don't they, were settings detail is tied to difficulty level?

I think every option given in the game is an option that can be used in real life. My only problem is with the 'creative freedom' and the 'free role', how do you know what players thrive off a free role? what players thrive off creative freedom? is there a way your assistant can tell you this?

Maybe think of real life players who are good in the free role. Kaka? Ronaldinho? Messi? And then see what characteristics they possess.

Free role is really hard to use and define. Just like real life I suppose. Not too many players can play this role really.

True. This is a good point. I can see how this could all be daunting to new players.

Does the game need a difficulty level? Some games have this don't they, were settings detail is tied to difficulty level?

"Difficulty Level" idea has been brought up before and, as far as I'm aware, is met with the same response as the "Chairman!" idea!

If it wasn't so vague to the "average player/newcomer"

SI have tried to make it slightly less vague by the introduction of Ass Man feed-back in-game, but lets be honest; that feature is useless as he (the Ass Man) just rambles on about a load of old nonsense.

No. Not at all. I don't think I need to tell an experienced professional exactly to the letter what to do.

Tactics are a team issue, you shouldn't need to have to tell John Terry how to play at centre back. He already knows.

I've never been a fan of the 'sliders' because there is very little intellegence in the players.

Tactics are '4-4-2, try and get it passed down the wings' with occasional special instructions to man mark a dangerous player or try and press on a weak link. Shooting from long range more when you know the 'keeper isn't great.

It's not telling every single player exactly how much to close down individually.

There's no need for the individual instructions to be as complex as they are to be realistic.

The game also gives the option to play as amateur teams where they basically only do tell players to play in a certain position and try to pump them up before a game. Maybe the game should reflect that better, that when you play as a very small club infront of 50 people that tactics really doesn't matter much.

Also. It's much easier in real life for a coach to tell a player what they want then to work the sliders. While we will try and fail to figure out how much we can move them a manager in real life can rather just tell them straight out.

Maybe the whole tactics needs to be remade into something where we can easier get through what we want to the players