Sigh .. silly again

Why is it no matter what you do - its wrong?

Seriously, the more I play this the more I realise its all just a roll of a dice (yeah yeah - but more so than ever). This particular version (8.02) is quite simply, the worst version of FM I've ever played.

So whats bugging me now?

I'm away against a low-table side .. they are playing quite attacking, however - so I play my most defensive set .. half time .. I'm winning 2-0 .. ahh .. cool ..

Great ... continue as is then .. play the game out.

2nd half starts - I note the AI has gone to 451 amd totally defensive .. cool .. the half will just pass easily.

Bish .. Bosh .. Bash .. Bingo .. 4 AI shots later .. I'm 4-2 down in the 60th minute ..

Huh?

So hang on a second.

They play on the offensive in the 1st half and I limit them to 1 shot in 45 minutes and I'm 2-0 up. They then play the complete opposite -defensive - and they are suddenly ripping me apart?

This sturdy defense of mine which has kept 6 clean sheets in 7 has suddenly been ripped apart in 15 minutes because the AI switched to a complete defensive set up? 1 lone AI striker can do better against 4 defenders than 2 AI strikers with 2 wide men on long forward arrows?

Am I over-committing? Well, no .. I'm set up to sit compact and not get dragged all over .. hence why we can cope with everything they threw against us in the first half.

But fear that 1 lone striker in a AI team that are resigned to losing and set up not to concede any more than the 2 in the first half.

Absolutely stupid.

Maybe my quality strikers can pull things round tho, huh?

Hmm ..

Composure / finishing both 15+

tempo is low

relative low creative freedom

both had a 8 rating at half time (1 goal apiece)

they are on Superb Morale

and fresh from sharing 5 goals between them in the previous match

Its a possibility ...

End of game .. one 9 shots, 1 on target, 1 goal .. one 6 shots, 1 on target, 1 goal

The AI ringer up front for the oppo ..

Composure 8, finishing 4

okay morale

6 rating at half time

End of game .. 5 shots, 4 on target, 4 goals

---

Quite simply, the turnarounds in this version are just absolutely stupid. Not just in the example above, but general.

You can just imagine Paul Jewell at Derby on a visit to Old Trafford and are 2-0 down in the last 10 minutes after only having 1 shot all game .. "I know" .. he says .. "lets go 4-2-4 .. our donkeys will suddenly turn into Brazillian legends and these top quality World Class defenders who've completely dominated us so far will turn into jelly" ..

Manchester United 2 Derby 3

Hang on Paul - if your 4-2-4 is so good and can rip the reigning champions to shreds at Old Trafford in the last 10 minutes of a game when your 2-0 down and being totally slapped all over .. why not start with 4-2-4, huh? You might win the league ..

Or of course, Sir Alex .. "Hhhhmm .. och .. playing at Derby here .. am winning 2-0 .. they are gonna be set up in .. och .. a 4-5-1 .. I'd best no set ma team owt in the 2nd half to see out the rest of tha game .. that lone striker looks like Pele .. and he'll rip ma defenders ta pieces .. despite tha fact in the first half he were a donkey. Fearrrrrrrrr the lone striker in a defensive set up .. och"

You gave a **** team talk. Simple as.

Games all about the team talk.

Sir Alex .. "Hhhhmm .. och .. playing at Derby here .. am winning 2-0 .. they are gonna be set up in .. och .. a 4-5-1 .. I'd best no set ma team owt in the 2nd half to see out the rest of tha game .. that lone striker looks like Pele .. and he'll rip ma defenders ta pieces .. despite tha fact in the first half he were a donkey. Fearrrrrrrrr the lone striker in a defensive set up .. och"

Well played mate

I think Grumpz is spot on there with team talks. I would have put "Dont get careless" or what ever it is. But i know how you feel mate, low low low rate players suddenly start running around the pitch and start banging in goals like they're Pele on speed or something, well f***ing annoying.

Originally posted by Grumpz:

You gave a **** team talk. Simple as.

Games all about the team talk.

Ahhh .. I remember now - I saw you sitting in the corner of my dressing room - wondered who you were .. but now it makes sense, you were there to give the "obvious answer" on these forums when someone once more claims the game is pants and instead puts the blame on them.

But actually, for your information, no I didn't. Now I **know** you'll say I must have told my players were crap .. or alternatively, told them to "go out and enjoy the rest of the game" .. maybe you were sat looking over my shoulder and your eyes blurred a little .. but infact, no, I didn't .. The team talk response shows that 5 of my players "looked delighted" (3 of them defenders and 1 my Keeper).. so, seems like a pretty good team talk to me.

So no. Simple as.

know this. the AI will make tactical changes to play better against your first half tactics. if you make subtle changes to your tactics, this will counter their counter. team talks aren't as important as far as preventing an AI an comeback as most people think they are. you could try both extremes in team talks and you will probably still ship goals if the AI changes their philosophy.

if they go 4-5-1, they are probably defending deeper and counter attacking with more direct passing over your midfield. it's not hard to nullify an attack by putting 8/9 men behind the ball and having an outlet to spring a counter.

if you tell your team "well done" for being 2-0 up, the AI manager would probably tell them "they have nothing to lose", or "i expect better". if i'm losing at HT and i tell my team that i expect a better performance, it works about 90% of the time. my best example being 4-0 down at home in a CL 1/4 final and pulling it back to 4-4 in injury time.

It's not all about team talks. I've done tons of experiments with team talks. I've also played full careers ignoring 100% of media/player/team talk interactions and gotten the same or better results than when I pay attention to these things.

I think the real point is that the tactic sliders just can't give you a real idea of how you are setting up your team. I believe there should be a radical overhaul in that area.

If they could add more options to tactics, but make them more simple, it would probably add a lot to the game.

I've just noticed something .. now, people will probably call me a suspicious old goat - but i'm in the process of watching my next match fully ..

I'm playing 442 and so is the oppo .. theirs flat, no forward arrows and only a back arrow on one of their central midfielders - the other center midfielder is man-marking one of mine and my other midfielder is free in space a lot of the time (due to his opposite number dropping back).

However, I'm not getting the ball up front often enough .. so, I turn my most attacking central midfielder (and nicely, the guy who is free in midfield) into a playmaker to act as a link to the 2 upfront.

Within 2 minutes, the opposition changes its set up .. the AI midfielders swap their roles. Not positions .. but their roles. The midfielder who was dropping (and letting my now newly-assigned playmaker have acres of space) is now not back-arrowed and is man-marking my playmaker .. and the other midfielder is the one back arrowed.

My playmaker hasn't yet recieved a pass. Yet the AI KNOWS I've made him a playmaker and ticked the box.

Hang on - I whispered the change in tactics to my full back who passed it on .. How does the AI suddenly know I've made him a playmaker - certainly when he hasn't yet had a pass to him!!!!!!!!

Is there a way I can be privvy to subtle tactical changes? I can't see how to do that in the manual - anyone help on that one?

Ok, maybe just a coincidence .. so I leave it 15 minutes and then remove him as a playmaker .. surely the AI won't switch back .....?

....... within 2 minutes, it goes back to its original set up ..

Ok - off topic I know - but jesus ..

Seems like you gave a good team talk - we can rule that out.

What are the personalities of the team you had out that match?

Tactically speaking, the in the first half, they were attacking (you said) and thus they came out and took risks which you capitalised on this by being defensive and giving them two sucker punches.

Now, in the second half, you should have told your players something along the lines of:

"Och, you lo didny do three baaad fist half. Now go ther an give 'em hell you ugly English so-and-sos. There's head e doon, if ye dunni score at least anotha one again' this shower, you cin walk home, on me ma's life ye cin".

You should have gone to a more attacking tactic, or at least one that tried to keep possession nd control the second half. As it was, I can understand your logic of remaining defensive, but at the end of the day, you're giving your opponent (even though they're being defensive themselves) licence to get back into the game. In FM as in real life, if they score an early goal (by whatever scrappy means) then this changes the face of the game completely and affects moral (which you can't see in-game) and you DEFINITELY should have done something at this point if you didn't at half-time.

Do you see the logic?

Originally posted by Thunda:

I've just noticed something .. now, people will probably call me a suspicious old goat - but i'm in the process of watching my next match fully ..

I'm playing 442 and so is the oppo .. theirs flat, no forward arrows and only a back arrow on one of their central midfielders - the other center midfielder is man-marking one of mine and my other midfielder is free in space a lot of the time (due to his opposite number dropping back).

However, I'm not getting the ball up front often enough .. so, I turn my most attacking central midfielder (and nicely, the guy who is free in midfield) into a playmaker to act as a link to the 2 upfront.

Within 2 minutes, the opposition changes its set up .. the AI midfielders swap their roles. Not positions .. but their roles. The midfielder who was dropping (and letting my now newly-assigned playmaker have acres of space) is now not back-arrowed and is man-marking my playmaker .. and the other midfielder is the one back arrowed.

My playmaker hasn't yet recieved a pass. Yet the AI KNOWS I've made him a playmaker and ticked the box.

Hang on - I whispered the change in tactics to my full back who passed it on .. How does the AI suddenly know I've made him a playmaker - certainly when he hasn't yet had a pass to him!!!!!!!!

Is there a way I can be privvy to subtle tactical changes? I can't see how to do that in the manual - anyone help on that one?

Ok, maybe just a coincidence .. so I leave it 15 minutes and then remove him as a playmaker .. surely the AI won't switch back .....?

....... within 2 minutes, it goes back to its original set up ..

Ok - off topic I know - but jesus ..

In a real match, there's no way you'd be whispering 'make Bob at number 8 playmaker".

You'd be screaming getting the ****ing ball to Bob will you!". And then the AI manager would hear and shout to his DMC (if Bob is a good player): "****ing stick tight to Bob at number 8 will you".

Even if you did 'whisper' it to your full back, unless he then 'whispers' it to the rest of your team, he's going to have to shout your instructions to the rest of the team and then the opposition players will hear it anyway. I obviously don't know whether or not in FM AI/human controlled players can make minor changes of their volition (I doubt it though) but in real life, its quite possible that the MCs would swop marking duties, just like DCs will do.

So why don't we get to hear about the subtle tactical changes the AI makes? Surely they are shouting them from the touchline too? I think you missed the point ..

who says 451 is necessarily completely defensive? they may be sitting back and hitting on the break. which is completely different to sitting back and hoping the rest of the match will pass by with no incidents.

Originally posted by Thunda:

So why don't we get to hear about the subtle tactical changes the AI makes? Surely they are shouting them from the touchline too? I think you missed the point ..

first of all, you are notified when the AI changes formation. they are bound to have changed their approach if they have 1 up front as opposed to 2 or 3 attackers. and even if there is no notification, you can see formation changes on the pitch view.

secondly, if the changes are made in the dressing room, how can the opposite team hear them irl? you're winning 2-0 at half time, you concede 4 by 60 minutes. whatever the AI has gathered from your first half performance, it has adjusted. you have to see these changes and adjust accordingly before they can benefit from it, instead of sitting with your hand on your head wondering why you're not playing as well as before.

if you were losing, you'd put on another striker, or adjust attacking mentality and passing style, no? the AI would probably do the same. logical.

Why is it no matter what you do - its wrong?

Oh, yaaaaaaawwwwwwwwnnnnnnn.

How many more of these threads are we going to have? There are tons of threads with advice on why your team talks aren't working or the cheating way the opposition - shock, horror - changes their tactics when they are losing.

The fact that so many people have so much success on this game proves beyond a shadow of a doubt that if you can't win ...

....

wait for it...

.....

IT'S YOUR TACTICS!

Worth waiting for, huh?

Get over to the tactics forum. There's plenty of advice on there re team talks, media comments, morale, and, well, tactics.

Hey up - here are the fan boys again .,.

451 .. playing me on the counter ..

Hey .. so am I .. I ain't going forward for them TO counter

And why don't people actually read what people say?

"There's plenty of advice on there re team talks"

I've already told you it was a positive team talk - 5 players "look delighted" .. 3 defenders, 1 keeper amongst them .. nothing wrong there

"morale"

Most of my team was Superb while those that weren't were Very Good

And as for "its your tactics" ..

YYYAAAAAWWWWWNNNNN

No - accept that the game is flawed ..

The game has nothing to do with "your tactics" .. but precise manipulation of some arbituary sliders which are unrealistic and bear no relation to what happens in a flawed match engine

Your correct statement should be "understand the game mechanics and how to manipulate them to your favour .. " .. ie. look for game flaws.

How does anybodies tactics - player or AI - turn a donkey team of pub players into the world beaters just because the AI switches to 4-2-4 .. ?

Is that tactics? Hey - write to Capello .. "hey Fabio - just go 4-2-4 - your bunch of overpaid prima-donna's will suddenly play like gods .. You know - the gimp up front who misses all the time, suddenly turns into an excocet missle firerer who has incredible accuracey"

Sure thing - you must be in the wrong job. How does a donkey who can't hit a barn door, suddenly become the best striker in the world just because the coach employs 4-2-4?

Tactics?

Or a flawed game?

If you say tactics - why do managers pay 20 odd million plus for world class strikers when all they need to do is give half a dozen balls to the Dog and Duck, get the fat pudgy guy who plays up front and props up the bar and just play 4-2-4?

Tactics do not turn crap players into world beaters or world class defenders into puddings.

Originally posted by Klimowicz:

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Thunda:

So why don't we get to hear about the subtle tactical changes the AI makes? Surely they are shouting them from the touchline too? I think you missed the point ..

first of all, you are notified when the AI changes formation. they are bound to have changed their approach if they have 1 up front as opposed to 2 or 3 attackers. and even if there is no notification, you can see formation changes on the pitch view.

secondly, if the changes are made in the dressing room, how can the opposite team hear them irl? you're winning 2-0 at half time, you concede 4 by 60 minutes. whatever the AI has gathered from your first half performance, it has adjusted. you have to see these changes and adjust accordingly before they can benefit from it, instead of sitting with your hand on your head wondering why you're not playing as well as before.

if you were losing, you'd put on another striker, or adjust attacking mentality and passing style, no? the AI would probably do the same. logical. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Formation and tactics are 2 different things. Yes, its easy to see when the oppo changes from 442 to 532 .. but subtle changes in tactics - ie. Switching to a playmaker .. suddenly focussing passes down the flanks .. should either be ..

1 - notified to neither team, if the AI or player notices due to the passage of play, then so be it.

or

2 - If the AI is going to be notified of "intructions shouted from the sidelines" - ie. I tell my players to use a playmaker .. then so should the player when the AI makes subtle changes. Otherwise, thats an unfair advantage.

Originally posted by Thunda:

Hey up - here are the fan boys again .,.

451 .. playing me on the counter ..

Hey .. so am I .. I ain't going forward for them TO counter

And why don't people actually read what people say?

"There's plenty of advice on there re team talks"

I've already told you it was a positive team talk - 5 players "look delighted" .. 3 defenders, 1 keeper amongst them .. nothing wrong there

"morale"

Most of my team was Superb while those that weren't were Very Good

And as for "its your tactics" ..

YYYAAAAAWWWWWNNNNN

No - accept that the game is flawed ..

The game has nothing to do with "your tactics" .. but precise manipulation of some arbituary sliders which are unrealistic and bear no relation to what happens in a flawed match engine

Your correct statement should be "understand the game mechanics and how to manipulate them to your favour .. " .. ie. look for game flaws.

How does anybodies tactics - player or AI - turn a donkey team of pub players into the world beaters just because the AI switches to 4-2-4 .. ?

Is that tactics? Hey - write to Capello .. "hey Fabio - just go 4-2-4 - your bunch of overpaid prima-donna's will suddenly play like gods .. You know - the gimp up front who misses all the time, suddenly turns into an excocet missle firerer who has incredible accuracey"

Sure thing - you must be in the wrong job. How does a donkey who can't hit a barn door, suddenly become the best striker in the world just because the coach employs 4-2-4?

Tactics?

Or a flawed game?

If you say tactics - why do managers pay 20 odd million plus for world class strikers when all they need to do is give half a dozen balls to the Dog and Duck, get the fat pudgy guy who plays up front and props up the bar and just play 4-2-4?

Tactics do not turn crap players into world beaters or world class defenders into puddings.

top class funny post

I agree with you. The AI is completely ridiculous. The computercontrolled manager can't make mistakes like IRL in this FM game. They always change formation and/or playing style to something better. They = AI.

Se my topic "Poor AI".

Isn't it strange that the AI always make the optimal TeamTalks that really works for the computercontrolled game. Why doesn't it more often let computercontrolled manager do bad TeamTalks som that a usercontrolled club win with bigger margin. This should happen more often when there's no doubt that you are the best team of the match, considering media predictions and huge favourite statement in front of the match. LET THE AI MAKE MORE MISTAKES LIKE IN REAL LIFE (IRL).

FM is not the perfect representation of real football, but neither is a manager not noticing opposition changes. its up to us to see where we might be going wrong. why can't the AI be the same? the game was not designed for us to master it straight away (well, those of us who develop our own tactics and don't use any exploits, anyway), you do have to learn how to play it, like any sports sim, or any game tbh. learning how to counter AI tactical changes is how it should be.

if someone told me "it's your tactics", i'd probably get pist off too, but i'd (quietly) take their advice. if it works, brilliant. if it don't, "i told you so" would be my next post. but it will most likely change something in a positive way, there's no harm in trying something else out. people who say "it's your tactics" may have been in the same position as ther person calling them a fanboy for saying that (not a dig at ya ). try someone elses tactics if this is a major issue for you in this game.

on the other point, put it this way. a more realistic representation of football during a match on FM would be to take away the ability to pause during a match to make changes. the "on-the-fly" feature, or whatever its called, is (somewhat) how it is during real matches unless there is a break in play irl. you can get your point across easier if you have the majority of the teams undivided attention, as opposed to trying to shout at one player who is trying to concentrate on what's infront of him above the noise of thousands of people. thus, you can give more specific instructions at half-time than during a match. not that i want this change, i'm as happy as i possibly can be with this uglier step-brother to fm07.

I see that you are in that wolfpack that swear to defend the AI by all cost. I'm myself a coach IRL and I tell you it's not normal to change the formation and the playing style around quite often during a game and make huge benefit of it. Most often it gain NOTHING at all, since the players often struggle to cope with all the changes that has to be done when you change things around. But in FM, the AI, let the players cope with all the new challenges that a change of formations and playing styles provides, in a perfect manner. STRANGE - don't you think?

wolfpack!? i thought someone would conclude from some of my above sentences that i don't entirely defend the AI. i have got my head around certain things, and i am able to play this game the way i want without help in tactics forums and general tips. as much as i disagree with anyone who says this game has no problems which make it very frustrating, i don't agree with people who come on here to ask for help then throw a wobbly when they are told simple facts like "adjust your tactics".

so what if the AI changes tactics too often? if they bother your defense, change yours. most times, the AI will change formation 2 or 3 times before resorting to 4-2-4, even if they get a goal back beforehand.

for example, i was 0-4 down with Arsenal in the CL 1/4 final (as i mentioned above), changed attacking philosophy, passing and formation (to a veery attacking 3-4-3). barcelona came out for the second half 0-4 ahead and with 1 up front. why keep 4 at the back? i pulled 2 back before they changed to 2 DMs, i had to change something, so i subbed off an FB for another winger and played 3-3-4 until i equalized in injurytime. i immediately changed to 4-2(DMs)-3-1 and played out the rest of injurytime after they went with 3 upfront.

it might/ might not happen as much in real football, but this is NOT a perfect representation of real football. it's a (very limited) program. we have to make do with our options tactics, teamtalk and general match-engine wise. if that means thinking logically instead of trying to score more goals and losing 2 goals in the last 10 minutes, so be it.

Originally posted by Thunda:

So why don't we get to hear about the subtle tactical changes the AI makes? Surely they are shouting them from the touchline too? I think you missed the point ..

You clearly must miss the quick one-liners that come in-game saying 'X has gone more defensive' or 'X has gone to an attacking style' or 'X has reverted back to a normal style'.

These are the clues that tell you even if the opposition hasn't visibly changed tactic pictorially on the formation screen.

Take off the .....

Originally posted by Law_Man:

You clearly must miss the quick one-liners that come in-game saying 'X has gone more defensive' or 'X has gone to an attacking style' or 'X has reverted back to a normal style'.

These are the clues that tell you even if the opposition hasn't visibly changed tactic pictorially on the formation screen.

Take off the .....

In my games those messages come way after formation is changed, so thats not quite exact way of telling it.

Only way i can use for sure is to keep checking AI formation.

How does anybodies tactics - player or AI - turn a donkey team of pub players into the world beaters just because the AI switches to 4-2-4 .. ?

It doesn't. If you have a far superior team, you rarely concede. Don't know about LLM, but certainly when playing as someone like Chelski vs someone like Stoke.

And I've never said the game isn't flawed. But it IS a game. It tries to replicate real life but it cannot fully do so and never will.

Hey up - here are the fan boys again .,.

Am I really a fanboy because I get sick of these immature rants every weekend? Am I a fanboy because I know how to work the game in a relatively realistic way without match engine-exploiting tactics? Because I accept the limitations of the game and don't blow a blood vessell when I'm doing badly?

I find many aspects of the game annoying and have been critical where it's warranted. But in a game - ANY game - you have to play what's in front of you. FM aspires to be a simulator but as I've it will never be perfect.

Isn't it strange that the AI always make the optimal TeamTalks that really works for the computercontrolled game. Why doesn't it more often let computercontrolled manager do bad TeamTalks som that a usercontrolled club win with bigger margin. This should happen more often when there's no doubt that you are the best team of the match, considering media predictions and huge favourite statement in front of the match. LET THE AI MAKE MORE MISTAKES LIKE IN REAL LIFE (IRL).

First of all this is a ridiculous thing to say. The AI is nowhere near perfect in its tactics or teamtalks, and my opposition make plenty of mistakes. I just played a CL game against Liverpool where Reina parried a tame shot which fell straight to my striker's feet for him to score. 2 mins into the second half. My full backs make a lot of mistakes, as do the AI's; same with my DMCs.

But in FM, the AI, let the players cope with all the new challenges that a change of formations and playing styles provides, in a perfect manner.

As I've said, the AI's performance is far from perfect. If it was perfect all the time, how would gamers win so often?

I understand the argument that this is not like real life, but then neither is a 14 year-old child managing a professional football team. FM is a game. Get over it.

Your correct statement should be "understand the game mechanics and how to manipulate them to your favour .. " .. ie. look for game flaws.

I don't understand how the game mechanics work at all. My success is through trial and error. Plenty of error. But when I get to know how certain players play best, I build a tactic around their strengths. It's how the game is supposed to be played IMO.

In summary, the gist of this thread seems to be:

Ranters = "This game cheats. The AI doesn't make mistakes. No matter what tactics I employ I lose. The only way to win is to change tactics more often than in real life. Boo hoo hoo."

Level-headed gamers = "The game is incapable of cheating. Your tactics are flawed. For God's sake it's just a game. FM will never truly reflect real life. There are plenty of ways to win without cheating the ME. Woo hoo, FM is king."

I think that covers it.

Originally posted by backpackant:

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">How does anybodies tactics - player or AI - turn a donkey team of pub players into the world beaters just because the AI switches to 4-2-4 .. ?

It doesn't. If you have a far superior team, you rarely concede. Don't know about LLM, but certainly when playing as someone like Chelski vs someone like Stoke.

And I've never said the game isn't flawed. But it IS a game. It tries to replicate real life but it cannot fully do so and never will.

</div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Never had problem with AI's 4-2-4 in '08, and i play LLM strictly.That's the only time when my god awfull teams don't concede goals.

If OP is finding '08 not satisfying, he should try '07.

That's what i did, since i just can't stomach overpumped (for my taste) lethality from strikers (mine and AI's).

Where has it been said that "the game cheats"?

No - whats being said is unrealistic events happen that completley nullify anything anyone does.

I've just watched two games today in the Euros .. both had one team 1-0 up with 10 minutes ago .. with my "FM glasses" on, I was waiting for the coach of the team who was down to lob 4 players up front ..

Guess what?

It never actually happened.

Shock! What? 1-0 down with 10 minutes to go and you don't go 4-2-4? Tut - your a national coach and you didn't do that and you got beat " .. tut - must be your tactics"

Yes, the tempo increased, more long balls got hoofed into the box with the midfielders pushing up further to the edge of the box during attacks .. but no 4-2-4 .. what numb-nuts those coaches must be.

Or .......

Could it be that going 4-2-4 is the most unrealistic piece of pap invented and teams only revert to it very very rarely?

Can just imagine (another Sir Alex impersonation coming up!) when Man U come up against a Derby 4-2-4

"Och! Niver! Tha pile 'o crap in this division is gonna hav' a go! A dinna wanna be attacking 'em! Och! No! Ha best tek off Ronaldo an' stick Wes Brooooooooooon on an' pley 5 at the back! Dinna wanna giv oop a 2 goal lead!"

No - he rubs his hands with glee and knows if Man U play their usual game .... their usual game .. they'll go on and win 3 or 4 .. Why? Because in real life - a donkey striker is still a donkey striker and a world class defense is still a world class defense regardless of the tactic or formation employed.

How does 4-2-4 suddenly make a free-kick taker "better"

How does 4-2-4 suddenly make a gimp with 2 left feet Didier Drogba?

How does 4-2-4 suddenly make a guy with 10 jumping vs a defender with 19 jumping, jump 6 inches higher?

--

Now, for peoples information - I'm highly successful in FM with tactics .. yet keep getting stymied by unrealistic game flaws.

Hey - 25 shots on goal, 15 on target .. yet get beat 2-1 with the AI's only 2 shots in the game cos they went 4-2-4 at the end.

Something wrong with my tactics? Yeah .. seems like it.

"Ohhhhh .. they aren't good chances tho"

Excuse me? You have a different version of the game to me where you can see exactly what types of chances come and go?

The most ridiculous thing I ever heard on these boards was when, after I said I create 10+ one-on-ones in a game with my striker (15+ composure and finishing) yet only manage to convert one of them a match was :

"Its your tactics .. don't create so many one on one chances"

What? WHAT? WHAT???????

"Och .. hey yoo .. Shrek. Dinna be trying to bear dooon on the keper. Nooooo! As sooooon as ya get the ball on the haf way line .. och.. just hoof it at the goal! Anyone gets one on one with the keper, if ya shoooot, am ginna give ya the Glasgo Kiss!"

Is it a crime to highlight those flaws? Yet time and time again people jump to the defense of the game - and you know what? SI, in seeing the support they get, continue to just release the same pile of poo each year with added features like "a brand new skin for £25!!"

Seriously, get a grip guys .. Yes, tactics can be important .. but you keep missing the point (like strikers miss the goal) ...

TACTICS DON'T TURN A CRAP PLAYER INTO A GOD

Yet FM AI tactics do.

Originally posted by Lucho_:

I think the real point is that the tactic sliders just can't give you a real idea of how you are setting up your team. I believe there should be a radical overhaul in that area.

If they could add more options to tactics, but make them more simple, it would probably add a lot to the game.

+1

I agree again with you, Thunda. The computercontrolled clubs are too well favoured.

The words 'for', 'wood' 'trees' 'can't' and 'see' spring to mind..... chilllll.

Take a step back, listen to the advice being offered and you'll see the rewards on the pitch (that is if you watch it on full match, if you watch it on key, you won't).

Originally posted by Law_Man:

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Thunda:

So why don't we get to hear about the subtle tactical changes the AI makes? Surely they are shouting them from the touchline too? I think you missed the point ..

You clearly must miss the quick one-liners that come in-game saying 'X has gone more defensive' or 'X has gone to an attacking style' or 'X has reverted back to a normal style'.

These are the clues that tell you even if the opposition hasn't visibly changed tactic pictorially on the formation screen.

Take off the ..... </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Ahh right - I get you now .. "X is playing more offensive now" .. right - so from that I can determine all the subtle changes .. right .. so .. he's started using a playmaker - yeah, I can see where it tells me that .. His width is now at 18 is it? Tut - silly me, I thought he'd gone to 17 and thats why they beat me. Ohhh .. yes, I see also that that statement tells me his center midfielder has changed his Forward Runs from mixed to often ..

Hang on - couldn't I hear the AI manager "shouting" all this from the sidelines? The AI "hears" me shouting from the sidelines, apparently, and changes what it needs to change accordingly .. So why don't I "hear" it shouting its instructions? Why don't I hear it shout " .. hey, numb-nuts, slow and probing" .. "hey .. whack the ball up to the big fella"

So - my are back on .. or are you supporting a "one rule for you, one rule for the AI" philosophy? A philisophy which, correct me if I'm wrong, gives the AI an unfair advantage which lands things firmly in the court of those people who do shout : "CHEAT"

Ok - its a game - I have no problem with AI in any game that cheats or gives little advantages to the AI .. but what gets me is people on the one hand put all the blame for a deficiency in a players success on " .. his tactics" as tho they are some tactical genius who've just done their Pro Licence course .. and then, when unrealistic happenings are pointed out, it suddenly becomes " .. just a game"

Which is it? Peoples tactics at fault, or the game?

Originally posted by Law_Man:

The words 'for', 'wood' 'trees' 'can't' and 'see' spring to mind..... chilllll.

Take a step back, listen to the advice being offered and you'll see the rewards on the pitch (that is if you watch it on full match, if you watch it on key, you won't).

I know exactly whats wrong - the strikers don't take chances that they should.

Formations and tactics should never effect a striker who is one on one with a keeper.

The tactic has worked, you've split open the defense, the striker is bearing down on goal, mano-et-mano .. all tactical settings now go out the window .. its one on one .. who'll come out on top ..

Ahhhh .. despite the strikers abilities and this dual between him and the keeper, he's whopped into row Z because your passing slider is set to 9 when it should be 8. Damn.....

Originally posted by Thunda:

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Law_Man:

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Thunda:

So why don't we get to hear about the subtle tactical changes the AI makes? Surely they are shouting them from the touchline too? I think you missed the point ..

You clearly must miss the quick one-liners that come in-game saying 'X has gone more defensive' or 'X has gone to an attacking style' or 'X has reverted back to a normal style'.

These are the clues that tell you even if the opposition hasn't visibly changed tactic pictorially on the formation screen.

Take off the ..... </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Ahh right - I get you now .. "X is playing more offensive now" .. right - so from that I can determine all the subtle changes .. right .. so .. he's started using a playmaker - yeah, I can see where it tells me that .. His width is now at 18 is it? Tut - silly me, I thought he'd gone to 17 and thats why they beat me. Ohhh .. yes, I see also that that statement tells me his center midfielder has changed his Forward Runs from mixed to often ..

Hang on - couldn't I hear the AI manager "shouting" all this from the sidelines? The AI "hears" me shouting from the sidelines, apparently, and changes what it needs to change accordingly .. So why don't I "hear" it shouting its instructions? Why don't I hear it shout " .. hey, numb-nuts, slow and probing" .. "hey .. whack the ball up to the big fella"

So - my are back on .. or are you supporting a "one rule for you, one rule for the AI" philosophy? A philisophy which, correct me if I'm wrong, gives the AI an unfair advantage which lands things firmly in the court of those people who do shout : "CHEAT"

Ok - its a game - I have no problem with AI in any game that cheats or gives little advantages to the AI .. but what gets me is people on the one hand put all the blame for a deficiency in a players success on " .. his tactics" as tho they are some tactical genius who've just done their Pro Licence course .. and then, when unrealistic happenings are pointed out, it suddenly becomes " .. just a game"

Which is it? Peoples tactics at fault, or the game? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

There are faults with the game and in-match/tactical stuff. That's a constant applicable to all. The main faults lie in how it is visually represented in my opinion, rather than actual massive engine faults.

There are often faults with users tactics/tactical approaches. This is obviously difficult to measure as it depends on the info the user gives. Like for example thinking that when coming against a very direct 4-2-4 that he can still maintain his high defensive line and full backs bombing on because he should still be dominating, therefore the other team with rubbish players can't just get hold of it in the middle of the park, lump it forward long ball hit and hope style in the massive space to aim at that you've left behind your defense and someone get on the end of it for a tap-in - Premiership players remember, very few are actually rubbish.

The point is, what would YOU do if you knew that the AI had changed their width to 17 and ticked use playmaker and dropped the MC into the playmaker list that you can't do when you (hopefully) notice that the AI has started playing really wide and with the full backs bombing on and their really good MC has made 20 passed in the last 10 mins?

Have a think.

The 2D engine in my opinion, is pointless.

There are so many things that happen that you see and then scratch your head wondering why.

I had a good example yesterday : I got beat away from home 3-0 .. all 3 goals were scored in exactly the same way.

An oppo CM picks up the ball and runs forward, being harried all the way by my own CM .. one of my CDs came blasting out of defence to close down, the ball slipped past him to a forward who slips into the back of the net.

Aha! Tactical problem there ... which after the first time it happens, you can change so it doesn't happen a further 2 times ..

Well .. no.

My CD is on tight man marking (the striker he left having a picnic in the penalty area) .. is closing down is next to nothing .. nothing in his PPMs to suggest "suffers from headless chicken syndrome" ... nada. It was just decided 3 times that he comes charging out of the defense .. goal .. goal .. goal.

This happens because what the 2D engine shows bears no relationship (in a lot of cases) as to what is actually happening because the result of the current passage of play has been pre-determined in the background before you get to see it and then it is simulated as best as the match engine can.

So, the maths in the background says : "result of play equals shot on goal" .. "result of shot equals miss" .. "passage of play shows player missing goal (ohh **** - other maths formulae shows keeper signing autographs .. errm .. so world class striker puts ball into row z instead of empty net ORRRRRRRRRR Keeper flies like a cat from sideline and makes a Gordan Banks-esque save)

Same with defence .. "Errm .. result of maths equals goal .. errmm .. how do we show it .. aha! CD gets case of wanderlust and ignores all his instructions .. well, its a goal .. if the player manager complains, we'll just blame his tactics"

As a result, we see just a representation of what could have happened. Not what actually did. Doesn't stop us swearing at our little dots on the screen .. but hey-ho.

And this is where the problem lies with the slider settings. There is absolutely NO feedback at the end or during a game as to what the slider settings are doing in that particular game against the AI setup.

Possession stats, passing stats or Action zones are meaningless and pointless in FM. I had a run of games not long back where my Attacking Action zone % was huge - yet not creating any chances yet while watching the games I noticed consistantly that the strikers weren't making forward runs and through balls weren't being played .. hey, FR is on often for those strikers and TTBs is on often too .. yet watching it on the 2D screen .. nothing was happening at all .. CMs just playing passy with each other .. ok, go Down The Flanks .. again, just playing passy with each other with my wingers in acres of space.

All of a sudden, after a few games grinding out 1-0s and not changing anything because I knew the tactic was fine .. it suddenly stopped doing that .. and through balls were suddenly being played again or knocking the ball out wide. Yet still frinding out 1-0s.

Now .. manager wise in real life - I'd be screaming my head off from the side lines telling them to make the runs or knock the ball out wide .. couldn't do that as the settings were already on Often - yet it wasn't being done ... in the 2D match engine .. it probably was behind the scenes in the calculations, but not visibly.

And thats what annoys people. They see nothing wrong in their slider settings yet don't see it played out that way. They see "fat bloke from the pub" turning into Fernando Torres because the game engine has calculated that the AI scores in the next passage of play.

If I have a 7'8" striker with 20 jumping and have him as a target man and my team on use TM to head, on direct passing - if I want them to bang in 200 balls a match into his head for my nippy 20 pace striker to run onto the flick ons .. thats what I want them to do .. I don't want poncey passy movements up the pitch.

Whack the ball to his head at every opportunity. Yet even with those settings maxed out, the poncey passing up the pitch is what you get barring the odd long ball up to him.

So - the match engine doesn't show whats happening - people get ****ed.

AIs in every game in existence "cheat" .. racing games use the elastic band method .. you easily catch the cars in front, yet once your past them, they stick to your tail like glue despite previously lapping 10 seconds a lap quicker than them .. and the same will be true in FM .. You dominate the hell out of the AI oppostion, yet when your ahead of them, they stick to your tail like glue, 4-2-4, whoops, we got beat 2-1.

Makes it a challenge. EVERY game does it.

Fine - but FM is supposed to be a football management simulation. So simulate it, don't game it.

Donkey Strikers DON'T become goal-scoring-super-star-heros when a team needs a goal and the defenders marking them DON'T forget how to defend.

Well, not it real life, anyway.

An oppo CM picks up the ball and runs forward, being harried all the way by my own CM .. one of my CDs came blasting out of defence to close down, the ball slipped past him to a forward who slips into the back of the net.

What was your defensive line set to? What was the DCs mentality and what was the DC's decision attribute?

Possession stats, passing stats or Action zones are meaningless and pointless in FM.

Yes they are in a lot of ways. Except action zones, I get quite a lot of key info from that. In real life for the same reasons, they're largely pointless too.

All of a sudden, after a few games grinding out 1-0s and not changing anything because I knew the tactic was fine .. it suddenly stopped doing that .. and through balls were suddenly being played again or knocking the ball out wide. Yet still frinding out 1-0s.

Did you change personnel? Otherwise, I can only think that your 'team understanding' improved, did it?

If I have a 7'8" striker with 20 jumping and have him as a target man and my team on use TM to head, on direct passing - if I want them to bang in 200 balls a match into his head for my nippy 20 pace striker to run onto the flick ons .. thats what I want them to do .. I don't want poncey passy movements up the pitch.

I really don't see how you can't get it to do that if that's what you want. Just tick tatget msn, drop him in, set all passing to direct/long, and fast tempo and have him on a middle mentality with low forward runs.

The only difficult part is getting that tactic plan to actually be effective, but doing it is very easy.

Donkey Strikers DON'T become goal-scoring-super-star-heros when a team needs a goal and the defenders marking them DON'T forget how to defend.

I genuinely rarely experience these things.

There is absolutely NO feedback at the end or during a game as to what the slider settings are doing in that particular game against the AI setup.

More feedback is needed. Its been said for years.

Where has it been said that "the game cheats"?

Okay, that was me reading between the lines. Fair point.

whats being said is unrealistic events happen that completley nullify anything anyone does.

Unrealistic perhaps. But a representation of oppositions' increasing their attacking mentality - in the case of 424. As for the last bit of that sentence that's just lazy or POOR TACTICS.

I've just watched two games today in the Euros .. both had one team 1-0 up with 10 minutes ago .. with my "FM glasses" on, I was waiting for the coach of the team who was down to lob 4 players up front ..

Guess what?

It never actually happened.

Shock! What? 1-0 down with 10 minutes to go and you don't go 4-2-4? Tut - your a national coach and you didn't do that and you got beat " .. tut - must be your tactics"

I listened to the Switzerland match and it sounded like the Swiss really were turning the screw with a good half-dozen decent chances - including a clear-cut handball in the 92nd minute which, had it been given, *I'D* be the one going "look! See? It happens". As it was it played out more like one of MY games, with me and the Czechs. 1-0 up, opposition with high attacking mentality, Czechs soaking up the pressure. No, the Swiss didn't change their tactics at all. And the Czechs didn't change their to counter it.

Might not have been 424 but it was definitely all-out attack.

Could it be that going 4-2-4 is the most unrealistic piece of pap invented and teams only revert to it very very rarely?

It's unrealistic, I can't deny that and never have. It's a representation of an attacking mentality. But above all, it's a GAME. I don't understand why you're so angry. 424 is sooooo easy to counter. Just do it.

he rubs his hands with glee and knows if Man U play their usual game .... their usual game .. they'll go on and win 3 or 4

No they don't. If they are 1-0 against Derby then Derby WILL rush forward and attack attack attack, and if Man U don't sit a bit deeper they WILL concede. These 'donkeys' you talk about are still professional footballers, and even if they are not 'world class', if they have more people around them, against a bunch of defenders trying to fend off far more attacking options, they'll have more chances and possibly even more time on the ball.

The biggest difference between a CC Div 1 footballer and a top Prem striker is the ability to take chances when that single opportunity comes along. Stick Jermaine Beckford in the Man U team he'll still need 10 decent chances to score 1 goal, but he WILL score eventually. If he's playing alongside 3 other strikers with his other team mates flinging balls his way in the last ten mins against a team that decided NOT to counter the new attacking mentality of his team, he is FAR more likely to score.

I fully acknowledge he would not be as lethal as an FM08 424, but it's still the way things go.

Now, for peoples information - I'm highly successful in FM with tactics .. yet keep getting stymied by unrealistic game flaws.

Hey - 25 shots on goal, 15 on target .. yet get beat 2-1 with the AI's only 2 shots in the game cos they went 4-2-4 at the end.

Second sentence negates the first. The game flaws you talk about are EASILY countered.

Is it a crime to highlight those flaws? Yet time and time again people jump to the defense of the game - and you know what? SI, in seeing the support they get, continue to just release the same pile of poo each year with added features like "a brand new skin for £25!!"

Not a crime, of course not. Only criticism will make the game better. Personally, I jump in because people keep ranting about "cheating" (okay, not specifically here) or "unrealistic tactics" or "no matter what I do I can't win", when it's all utter rubbish. You just need to calm down, accept it's a game that will NEVER be 100% - or even 75% - realistic. When dealing with human beings with so many variables it's just not possible. I don't defend the game to the hilt, just point out that nothing the AI does is impossible to counter. If the AI manager can do it so can the human.

TACTICS DON'T TURN A CRAP PLAYER INTO A GOD

Yet FM AI tactics do.

Again, you're wrong on this. It's not the AI tactics that turn their players into Gods, but YOUR tactics that turn YOUR players into donkeys.

To use your Man U analagy, first game of last season was Man U vs Reading where Reading came with a tactic in mind which involved defending throughout. They did it. 0-0 and the world class Man U stars could barely get it on target, and when they did (second half; Fergie changed his tactics) the GK was outstanding, a true "superkeeper". Later in the season, once Fergie tweaked his tactics some more and the players gelled a bit more, he would have massacred that Reading side with that mentality. Same players, different tempo, tweaked formation, etc.

No, it doesn't translate literally to FM, but it does highlight the limits of FM, ie, it TRIES to replicate real life. But doesn't quite manage it.

Hang on - couldn't I hear the AI manager "shouting" all this from the sidelines? The AI "hears" me shouting from the sidelines, apparently, and changes what it needs to change accordingly .. So why don't I "hear" it shouting its instructions? Why don't I hear it shout " .. hey, numb-nuts, slow and probing" .. "hey .. whack the ball up to the big fella"

Can't remember who said this, but I don't think it's quite accurate. The AI and human managers are on an equal footing during matches and the match engine doesn't know who is who. You can't "hear" the AI manager because it's a computer game and you have to play it within those limitations. If the commentary says the AI has changed tactics - if you stuggle so badly when it happens - watch the match on full detail for a couple of minutes and decide what they've changed. I only need to do this 3-4 times a season when I'm playing an equal or superior team.

what gets me is people on the one hand put all the blame for a deficiency in a players success on " .. his tactics" as tho they are some tactical genius who've just done their Pro Licence course .. and then, when unrealistic happenings are pointed out, it suddenly becomes " .. just a game"

It's just a game in which your tactics are deficient. Is that so hard to understand?

Ahhhh .. despite the strikers abilities and this dual between him and the keeper, he's whopped into row Z because your passing slider is set to 9 when it should be 8. Damn.....

Not sure who said this, but again I'd disagree with them. Not sure why - and again, I accept this as a flaw - but tempo seems to have an effect on this. If you've had 10 one-on-ones in a high tempo game, go to a slower tempo and the ST will take his time over one-on-ones. Usually. (one real life example would be the Leeds/Doncaster play-off. The Leeds GK saved between 8 and 10 one-on-ones in the first half alone. Doncaster won the match 1-0 because they used the corner cheat )

My CD is on tight man marking (the striker he left having a picnic in the penalty area) .. is closing down is next to nothing .. nothing in his PPMs to suggest "suffers from headless chicken syndrome" ... nada. It was just decided 3 times that he comes charging out of the defense .. goal .. goal .. goal.

Again, I accept this is a flaw in the way the game works. However, I think this is more to do with your closing down instructions. This scenario happens to me maybe half a dozen times a season, so I don't think it's too big a deal.

And this is where the problem lies with the slider settings. There is absolutely NO feedback at the end or during a game as to what the slider settings are doing in that particular game against the AI setup.

I agree that some feedback would be nice, but if you got too much then the ass man is playing the game for you. More feedback, perhaps more stats might help a little, but ultimately I prefer my trial and error method.

AIs in every game in existence "cheat" .. racing games use the elastic band method .. you easily catch the cars in front, yet once your past them, they stick to your tail like glue despite previously lapping 10 seconds a lap quicker than them .. and the same will be true in FM .. You dominate the hell out of the AI oppostion, yet when your ahead of them, they stick to your tail like glue, 4-2-4, whoops, we got beat 2-1.

And yet again you fail to understand this is easily countered. Much easier than shaking off an elastic band-powered AI racecar.

while watching the games I noticed consistantly that the strikers weren't making forward runs and through balls weren't being played .. hey, FR is on often for those strikers and TTBs is on often too .. yet watching it on the 2D screen .. nothing was happening at all .. CMs just playing passy with each other .. ok, go Down The Flanks .. again, just playing passy with each other with my wingers in acres of space

Not sure what game you're playing but if I set my team instructions to pass down the right then when possible they pass down the right. The instructions don't work every moment of every game but the majority of them do for me.

Another summary: the match engine is not 100% realistic. It can't be and never will be. If you can't accept that, go manage a real football team and see how well you do not changing your tactics slightly during games.

*I* accept the points that: the 424 tactic is unrealistically effective, many tactics don't represent real life, in-game commentary on AI tactics COULD be improved, and that players IRL would be able to make better decisions on the pitch than simply robotically following the human user instructions to the latter.

YOU have to accept: Whatever the AI manager can do so too can the human user, 424 is a peice of the proverbial to counter, FM will never be 100% realistic, tactics play a much bigger role in FM than in real life, and most of all IT'S A GAME.

FM08 is flawed in more ways than just the match engine, but there are ways around the majority of them - most involve chilling out. Hopefully SI will ditch the all-encompassing 424 for FM10, not because it's so effective but because I find it ridiculously easy to counter. As soon as the AI goes 424 I know I'm going to win the game. Simple as.

That's about all I have to say on this. If you have something new to add I'll gladly consider it and either agree/disagree. Hopefully you'll chill out and take some advice to help with your tactical issues. If you don't I'm sure you know where to find Ebay.

Good luck with your game. Hope some of these comments are helpful.

So how do you counter the 424?

I'm not going to quote your whole message backpackant, but if you think derby would go 4-2-4 against Man Utd you are wrong.

Look at a game at the end of the season Man Utd vs West Ham.

United were winning and had nani sent off, but west ham still showed no more attacking intent because they knew they would still get destroyed by a strong united team if they went 4-2-4.

It just doesnt happen, teams push on but they do not go 4-2-4 often.

Maybe if the roles were reversed and it was united 1 - 0 down, then they would go 4 - 2 - 4, but you will never see Hull doing it next season

i think it's clear that the majority of FM gamers realize that 4-2-4 is unrealistic. and we also realize that the AI tactics aren't the only unrealistic aspect of FM, i.e. the transfer system, but until we get fm09 without these issues, we will have to make do with what we've got. there is a workaround for most of the glaring issues in fm08.

tomistuck:

i agree with your point. but why would Hull not try to grab an equalizer if they are 1-0 down in the 80th minute at old trafford? of course they would not go 4-2-4 against man utd irl, they will not have the quality to do so in comparason to united, but they most probably would in fm08. keeping the lead would depends on the ability, quality and character of your team irl, not the case in fm08.

players who concede late equalizers & winners after the AI go 4-2-4 honestly need to think about what the logical way to defend is. 4-2-4 probably means crosses into the box, don't bother closing down, you will leave gaps. just play deep all-out defence in a narrow formation. "park the bus" if you wanna call it that. leave somebody up to provide a counter attack option. i would not be saying this unless it has worked for me.

tbh, 4-2-4 gave me more problems in fm07.

4-5-1 is defensive? News to me.

If we say 424 is unrealistic which it may or may not be, but i do believe it is a reasonable representation of a team such as Man Utd, Chelsea or as before mentioned the Swiss throwing everything into an attack.

Towards the end of the Swiss game Senderos was staying in the Czech half whilst the onslught continued. All you have to do is do what the czechs did.... sit back and defend.

In additon to this how many of you have seen teams in real life set up with a formation anywhere close to Kimz which in game also blows many teams away.

I'm not going to quote your whole message backpackant, but if you think derby would go 4-2-4 against Man Utd you are wrong.

Just wanted to clarify: I agree that 424 is unrealistic in both formation and its effectiveness on FM. I'm not daft. But teams do go more offensive when one goal down and only 10 mins left.

The main point I'm trying to make is that when people playing this GAME say there's nothing they can do to counter 424 they are wrong. It might not be realistic, but it's more than playable.

Once gamers accept the limitations of programming an incredibly complicated game and accept you have to make allowances in realism, they will enjoy the game a whole lot more.

Point out the flaws, yes, but listen to advice when it's offered.

One area where the 424 is far and beyond insane is where a largely inferior team does it and dominates against a better team. However where it is reasonably used is say Chelsea vs Liverpool. Where the teams are much more even.

The simplest, and easiest way to counter the 4 2 4 formation the AI implement, is to simply click and drag one of your two strikers (if you play 4 4 2) and put him as a centre half, then substitute a centre half on for him.

Simply put, go to a 5 4 1, which is how it goes in real life football... x

An oppo CM picks up the ball and runs forward, being harried all the way by my own CM .. one of my CDs came blasting out of defence to close down, the ball slipped past him to a forward who slips into the back of the net.

Aha! Tactical problem there ... which after the first time it happens, you can change so it doesn't happen a further 2 times ..

Well .. no.

My CD is on tight man marking (the striker he left having a picnic in the penalty area) .. is closing down is next to nothing .. nothing in his PPMs to suggest "suffers from headless chicken syndrome" ... nada. It was just decided 3 times that he comes charging out of the defense .. goal .. goal .. goal.

To pick up from what Law Man was saying about this:

If your MC was harrying him, that means he has already got past him and he was desperately trying to get back ito a defensive position. That leaves the DC in the quandry of staying with is man or picking up the new threat of an onrushing midfielder. Whilst aacepting that the AI doesn't deal with these types of situations very well, I'd suggest you are only looking at part of the picture.

Firstly, your MCs are not doing their defensive jobs in you away tactic. Why? Are they getting too far forward and being bypassed by play, thus leaving the opposing MCs a free run at your defence? Are they missing tackles, resulting in the same scenario? Is there a huge gap between your defensive and midfield lines that the AI constantly exploits?

Looking at the defence settins in isolation doesn't help. In fact, in hinders. You need to look at why these things are happening holistically. Your defence might struggle becasue the midfield offers no cover, which seems to be the case herem in which case it is the midfield settings that need changing. That goes for the 4-2-4. So many people easily outwit it and rack up scores against it that there must be elements in your tactical setup that allows it to overachieve against you.

There are flaws in the engine. Of that there is no argument. Will always be the case. However, I have yet to see one case of a user employing realisitcally and logically designed tactical systems complaining about the engine. Those that drift towards a more unrealistic solution tend to complain. These solutions often generate huge shot count and possession averages but have huge defensive holes. Hence, they look good statistically whilst conceding at a high SOT/goal ratio, leading to an 'unfair' perspective. I don't know what type of ssytem you are using but from your descriptions I would imagine it is closer to the latter than the former. The more your tactic drifts from one that would be employed in reality, the more you will challenge the engine and the less likely you are to understand whay and how things are happening. Only you know how realistic your own tactic is. Without us knowing, we are operating on a different playing field. That difference is, for me, what separates those who really enjoy FM to those who cry foul. If you could detail your approch then maybe the dicussion could evolve form its current stalemate.

also, Leeds had actually played 4 strikers up front this season late in the game to try to get a result. And they have score something like 17 goals in the last minute too.

When a very good club IRL is leading by 1-0 or 2-0 I guess there is not much a poor club can do to their tactics or formation to really change the outcome in these matches. I don't think Man Utd would have to do heavy changing in their tactics or formations against West Ham or Reading in such a state, even if West Ham or Reading is changing their tactics or formations like wild dogs through such a match.

Therefore I think it's unlikely that a poor computercontrolled club should have huge chances of shakin' a big favourite club, controlled by a user. When media have stated that you are a title contender in a season, and you are the BIG favourite in a match, and are playing on home soil, the outcome should be obvious. There is one factor though that, in my opinion, could change the outcome...and that is pure LUCK. And luck can happen IRL, no doubt about it. But this can only appear in a single match now and then. In my opinion the AI provide the poor computercontrolled clubs far to often with this luck.

And it seems like the computercontrolled managers can't make mistakes to their tactics and formations against a usercontrolled club. Everytime a computercontrolled club change tactics or formations during a match it's always for å better outcome, it rarely, if ever, worsen things.

While I do agree that in FM08 the AI changes formations and tactics way too often, I don't think tha 'must win as big club at home scenario' is a route we should be going down. In such matches you know the AI team is going to sit back, pack the last third with players, reduce space and defend for their lives whilst hoping to grab a goal on the break.

To overcome that do what clubs do in real life, open space (i.e. very wide, deep-normal d-line, loose marking), keep the ball (short passing), wait for your chances (slow tempo), try to do the unexpected in dangerous positions (creative freedom, free roles). On a good day you will take them apart, on a bad one grind out a dour victory, especially with a determined squad. If they do try and get back into the game, simply reduce space and increase the tempo to pressurise tham into mistakes allowing you to rip them apart on the counter. If they go 4-4-2, target the midfielders (tight marking, heavy pressing), keep the FBS back (no FWRs) and exploit the space left on the flanks (sarrowed FCs, wingers FWRs often, fast tempo, counter).

If you are not doing the basics then you will struggle.

Originally posted by DrEdwierd:

One area where the 424 is far and beyond insane is where a largely inferior team does it and dominates against a better team. However where it is reasonably used is say Chelsea vs Liverpool. Where the teams are much more even.

Not a direct reply to this quote, just using it as an example as to why this argument is going round in circles.

There are two distinct camps here: one that accepts there are flaws in the match engine, and especially with 424, but is able to chill and sit back and come up with solutions; the other seems to ignore these solutions and seek to raise the issue over and over. Not sure what this second camp wants from SI - another patch perhaps? Which is pointless because most flaws are easily countered without any in-depth knowledge of how the ME works.

Anyway, I'm getting a bit tired of trying to help out now, so I'll just sign off on this one with a bottom line:

424 all-out-attack is unrealistically effective for both the AI and human user, BUT it is easily countered with a bit of thought and patience. Once you have a tactic in place to counter it, it's one of the few areas of FM08 where a one tactic DOES fit all.

I know this is an old topic now but I have to agree with some of the things Thunda said... I can't remember experiencing these kind of problems on FM 2007 really? There was certain things that happened that frustrated you on the match engine but it happened very little.

The best match engine I remember has probably got to be CM03/04, for some reason I was so into that and it seemed great at the time, not played it for about 4 years though and don't have the game anymore!