Adverts on ingame hoardings and the EULA

I feel this little nugget from the EULA needs expanding on

"This technology will automatically deliver location-based advertising and log and transmit certain information about your interaction with the advertising. If you do not wish to receive contextual advertising messages, do not play this game while connected to the Internet."

What processes will be used to determine what ads we see ? will our pc's be monitored, will the type of ads be restricted to content from SI or will 3rd parties be involved ?

Anyone from SI care to elaborate ?

Is that from the game?

Apparently yes, i seen it remarked upon in the DRM thread

Yes it is.

I hope no 3rd parties are involved, as flooding the game with advertising would turn it into FIFA Manager.

800 Posts, fantastico!!

When i click back on to the game i always accindently press on the boards! it is sooo annoying

Shouldn't you have the option NOT to have this third party interaction.

Shouldn't you have the option NOT to have this third party interaction.

I guess you do, but only if you dont have your net connected while playing, although this (vague) info is buried at the bottom of a EULA , something that no one ever reads hence my making this thread , i dislike DRM but will still buy the game, but if FM09 has some sort of data miner for this advertising then its a different matter.

there is an ads.fmf file in the installation, I suspect some clever skinner may be able to de-activate this via an xml file

:Edit: Just delete the ads.fmf file and refresh the skin cache and no more ads

The advertisements does seem to be provided by 3rd parties. Here is an expanded quote from the EULA. It's at the very bottom of the EULA in case anyone wants to find it in their game.

If you install and play this game you will receive advertising messages that appear within and in context with the game environments to enhance the realism of the game. To provide this functionality, technology developed by IGA Worldwide Inc., has been integrated into the game. This technology will automatically deliver location-based advertising and log and transmit certain information about your interaction with the advertising. If you do not wish to receive contextual advertising messages, do not play this game while connected to the Internet. IGA’s privacy policy can be found at http://www.igaworldwide.com/privacy-policy.cfm

This is from the IGA site:

Information collected through Computer Games

IGA technology delivers content and information to and from certain Internet-connected computer games that use our services. In order to select the content that is displayed during the game, IGA uses the IP address of the game players computer. IGA does not use IP addresses to ascertain any game player's identity. The IP address is used to determine the player's country or city, the game being played, the size and length of time that content is displayed within a game, and the length of a game session. This data is used to calculate the fees that are charged to third party content providers and advertisers.

Aggregated statistical information such as the percentage of users playing in a particular area or the average length of a game session, may be shared with these third parties. IP addresses are retained only until the end of a game session.

Great - two options then. Have info. transmitted to a 3rd party - or don't play when online. As I'm often online when playing I end up being spied on.

Yeah - it wouldn't hurt to know exactly what this entails.

Bumpeh for an official response

sorry if i'm being a bit dim, but is this in FM09?, if so I definitely wont be buying.

sorry if i'm being a bit dim, but is this in FM09?, if so I definitely wont be buying.

yes it is and you aren't being spied on... people are over the top, it just imports links, don't like them don't click them... it will be cool to see different advertisements

It sounds to me as though this is exactly the same kind of thing that many websites use.

Log on to your average website and they will be able to see your city, country, what pages you view and how long you're on there.

So not much different to surfing the web.

IGA does not use IP addresses to ascertain any game player's identity. The IP address is used to determine the player's country or city, the game being played, the size and length of time that content is displayed within a game, and the length of a game session. This data is used to calculate the fees that are charged to third party content providers and advertisers.

Right, how does the checking of my IP address tell them, the game being played, the length of time I play, it must mean theres something transmitting that data to a 3rd party, and not just my IP. So if I pause the game and browse the football forums will i start to get a lot of pop ups etc.

So if I pause the game and browse the football forums will i start to get a lot of pop ups etc.

"This data is used to calculate the fees that are charged to third party content providers and advertisers." suggests not. If it was going to give you popups, it would say something like "This data is used to provide targeted third-party advertising external to the game", which it doesn't.

No Tony1, nothing like that!

I get the impression that if you click on the advertising boards, they will be able to see your country, city etc.

As I said before, most websites you go to have this kind of information about you. I don't know how it works but I assume they can just trace your IP to your local service provider. It's not like your address will pop up on their screens with all your details.

No Tony1, nothing like that!

I get the impression that if you click on the advertising boards, they will be able to see your country, city etc.

As I said before, most websites you go to have this kind of information about you. I don't know how it works but I assume they can just trace your IP to your local service provider. It's not like your address will pop up on their screens with all your details.

IP geolocation isn't particularly accurate - some sites seem to think I am on the Isle of Man, which is rubbish.

No Tony1, nothing like that!

I get the impression that if you click on the advertising boards, they will be able to see your country, city etc.

As I said before, most websites you go to have this kind of information about you. I don't know how it works but I assume they can just trace your IP to your local service provider. It's not like your address will pop up on their screens with all your details.

From an IP I know I can see where someone is and from site logs I can check where they came from what they looked at and for how long. I can not see what game they were playing at a time, and as someone pointed out before on another thread if I stop FM connecting to the internet, instead of getting a browser with Lap dancing bars in Leeds I'll get a blank browser screen open.

Exactly Pelicanstuff!

Nothing to get upset about folks.

The hysteria on this forum cracks me up!

From an IP I know I can see where someone is and from site logs I can check where they came from what they looked at and for how long. I can not see what game they were playing at a time, and as someone pointed out before on another thread if I stop FM connecting to the internet, instead of getting a browser with Lap dancing bars in Leeds I'll get a blank browser screen open.

Tony1 - I'm no expert on this kind of thing but websites also monitor what software you are using to browse the Internet, e.g. Explorer, Firefox. Sounds like the same concept to me. Nothing to worry about.

I don't think they will have localized content for my country so I'm quite sure it will associate my IP with a larger region, most probably Eastern Europe. If this means I will somehow be getting advertising aimed at Eastern Europe in general it would probably annoy me quite a bit. An official clarification on how this system will work would definitely be appreciated.

If you want to be connected to the net, but don't want FM to transmit data, add it to your firewall's blocking list...

IP geolocation isn't particularly accurate - some sites seem to think I am on the Isle of Man, which is rubbish.

Depends on the type of IP. If you have a static IP, a lot of company's have them, you can probably get the address down to the number of the building on the street and company involved. If its a dynamic IP then yes its pretty inaccurate,

The IP address is used to determine the player's country or city, the game being played, the size and length of time that content is displayed within a game, and the length of a game session

An ip address cant give them this information, which is why we want a clarification what the IGA actually entails .

Tony1 - I'm no expert on this kind of thing but websites also monitor what software you are using to browse the Internet, e.g. Explorer, Firefox. Sounds like the same concept to me. Nothing to worry about.

Yes I understand this when I am browsing the net, but why should it happen when I am playing a game.

A little clarification wouldn't go amiss

Generally with contextual advertising, this 3rd parties program will comb through cookies left on your computer from the various websites you visit. It's how internet advertising works. If you are concerned about it, you shouldn't be as this already takes place every day on all of your computer when you visit websites. They leave cookies and other codes determine your patterns from the cookies and advertise to you based on certain demographic information they ascertain from the websites you visit.

That being said, no personal information is ever logged, only an alpha numeric codes assigned to you by the site and the what parts of the sites you visit.

E.G. - If you visit lots of sports and news sites, the programs will most likely determine you are a male and send you male geared advertising (sneakers, sports equipment, car stuff, etc.). Also this can be done by location, so if you live in Liverpool, they can send advertisement about silver medal polish and self help books about why being second best is ok

P.S. - I work in internet advertising, so that is how I know about all of this.

If Zone Alarm tells me that FM is trying to access the internet AFTER I've authenticated it, then it's most certainly getting blocked

IP geolocation isn't particularly accurate - some sites seem to think I am on the Isle of Man, which is rubbish.

While, you may not live on the Isle of Man, your ISP might route your IP through their, which is why its gotten wrong sometimes.

By IP tracking is usually only done down to a zip code level (or equivalent in Europe)

While, you may not live on the Isle of Man, your ISP might route your IP through their, which is why its gotten wrong sometimes.

By IP tracking is usually only done down to a zip code level (or equivalent in Europe)

Spot on. That's also why, when you go to some, uh, adult sites, you always get ads saying "meet girls in [your town name] now".

I refuse to play FM09 naked now!

I refuse to play FM09 naked now!

Me too. And I'm terrified of the thought of signing Ashley Young now!!

Spot on. That's also why, when you go to some, uh, adult sites, you always get ads saying "meet girls in [your town name] now".

would know all about this would you

Spot on. That's also why, when you go to some, uh, adult sites, you always get ads saying "meet girls in [your town name] now".

That is correct. So I hear...

It sounds to me as though this is exactly the same kind of thing that many websites use.

Log on to your average website and they will be able to see your city, country, what pages you view and how long you're on there.

So not much different to surfing the web.

There is a big difference between web sites and software installed on you computer.

Web sites are highly limited to user input and restricted by the web browsers you use. While software installed on your PC can collect any data from you PC and track all of your user inputs in any application. If you combine that with the application knowing your IP address and the time your were using the application it is simple to find out through contacting the ISP (which is found from the IP address) which user has been using that IP address at that time. Of course the ISP's don't give out their user details easily, but trough legislation they can be forced to reveal your identity and collected information along with your for instance browsing history. The process is used in many countries including the EU and USA.

Therefore the only thing left to you is to hope that SI & their advertising partners will uphold their EULA and not store your IP address and will not record your data.

Same thing goes for Steam

Steam collects and reports anonymous metrics of its usage, stability, and performance,[37] all, with the exception of Valve's hardware survey, without notifying the user at the time of collection or offering an opt-out.

Steam is also used to report similarly anonymous and non-identifying data by several of its games.[38] While some forms of this data are reported back to the public in aggregate form, for instance the results of the aforementioned hardware survey and gameplay statistics, other non-identifying data has been known to be collected without any indication (as is described in Valve's privacy policy[37])

There is one other big difference between web sites & FM. Web sites earn their money either trough advertisements while providing free content or require subscriptions without advertisements. It is almost never advertisements with subscriptions which is what SI are doing with FM they are adding adds in a product you have paid for in full.

Having adds in FM which you have bought is like having your new car painted with Coca-Cola ads and paying full price for it.

I would not mind having ads in the game if it is free or costs something like 5 €, but for a game that costs 50 € I believe that it is unacceptable to have in game ads. I do agree that SI have found a way to provide those adds in the most unobtrusive way possible.

would know all about this would you

Look, I'm a married man, and I absolute refute...oh alright, you got me.

Also, I too work in advertising (kinda - I'm kinda the nemesis for advertisers), although I'm involved in the online advertising research department at work, so I know a little about it too. Not an expert by any means, but I know a little bit. In-game advertising, as I've so often argued, is probably going to be the way forward, and no doubt it will borrow heavily from the Internet model so well described by Guyatwork37.

Aye, I'm a little annoyed that they are including ads in FM09. But I also agree that they're fairly unobtrusive.

If it were completely passive, non-revenue raising and entirely for environment then I probably wouldn't care. But then they're making money off me twice!

Hopefully we see 2x as many patches and data updates this year lads!

There is a big difference between web sites and software installed on you computer.

Web sites are highly limited to user input and restricted by the web browsers you use. While software installed on your PC can collect any data from you PC and track all of your user inputs in any application. If you combine that with the application knowing your IP address and the time your were using the application it is simple to find out through contacting the ISP (which is found from the IP address) which user has been using that IP address at that time.

1) Of course the ISP's don't give out their user details easily, but trough legislation they can be forced to reveal your identity and collected information along with your for instance browsing history. The process is used in many countries including the EU and USA.

2) Therefore the only thing left to you is to hope that SI & their advertising partners will uphold their EULA and not store your IP address and will not record your data.

Same thing goes for Steam

There is one other big difference between web sites & FM. Web sites earn their money either trough advertisements while providing free content or require subscriptions without advertisements. It is almost never advertisements with subscriptions which is what SI are doing with FM they are adding adds in a product you have paid for in full.

3) Having adds in FM which you have bought is like having your new car painted with Coca-Cola ads and paying full price for it.

I would not mind having ads in the game if it is free or costs something like 5 €, but for a game that costs 50 € I believe that it is unacceptable to have in game ads. I do agree that SI have found a way to provide those adds in the most unobtrusive way possible.

1) You are correct in that legislation can be used to pass on browsing history, but it's generally used to prosecute people who are commiting crimes, e.g. fraud, piracy, child porn, etc. If Sega tried to force ISPs to hand over this data for their marketing purposes, they'd be told to eff off!!

2) There's no reason to suspect that they wouldn't. In the UK there are very tough laws on data protection - some of the most comprehensive in the world - and a legislative authority in the ICO who has the power to fine comapnies who don't adhere to this. Collecting private identifiable data wouldn't just be a breach of the UK's Data Protection Act 1998, but also the Privacy and Electronic Communications (EC Directive) Regulations 2003, which has implications from Brussels. A company would be very foolish to break this in my opinion.

3) I'm inclined to agree with your third point. I think that, if advertising is used, the price of games should drop slightly. Not by a lot, but slightly. Don't forget, the need to include advertising is mostly because of the lost revenue through piracy.

Whenever browsing the net I use Ghostsurf. Ghostsurf is a piece of software that basically hides your ip address whilst you use a proxy while surfing online.

This is probably the counter that people can use.

I dont buy the lost revenue argument, didn't Fm shift 1 million + copies last time out ?

So Fm remains one of a select few PC only titles that can shift a million units per YEARLY outing, but they need to subsidise through ads ?

I don't really mind FM/FML/WAR CHILD etc on the hoardings , i sure as hell dont want to see Valkariya chronicles or golden axe : beast rider ads in there

double failpost

I dislike the notion that an application will phone home when using it. I sincerely hope that it can be switched off.

By the way, this doesn't add realism at all. If they wanted realism, they wouldn't need to know where the computer lived, but only where the match lived (I shouldn't get adverts for Dutch companies when I play MLS!). Bad excuse for collecting marketing information.

I dont buy the lost revenue argument, didn't Fm shift 1 million + copies last time out ?

So Fm remains one of a select few PC only titles that can shift a million units per YEARLY outing, but they need to subsidise through ads ?

I don't really mind FM/FML/WAR CHILD etc on the hoardings , i sure as hell dont want to see Valkariya chronicles or golden axe : beast rider ads in there

You don't buy the lost revenue argument? Really? That argument would only stand if NO copies of FM08 were pirated. I'd be extremely surprised if that was the case.

I dislike the notion that an application will phone home when using it. I sincerely hope that it can be switched off.

It won't. It will collect the information during activation only. At least that's my understanding of it. The information contains no identifiable information either.

It won't. It will collect the information during activation only.

From the EULA:

This technology will automatically deliver location-based advertising and log and transmit certain information about your interaction with the advertising.

1) You are correct in that legislation can be used to pass on browsing history, but it's generally used to prosecute people who are commiting crimes, e.g. fraud, piracy, child porn, etc. If Sega tried to force ISPs to hand over this data for their marketing purposes, they'd be told to eff off!!

2) There's no reason to suspect that they wouldn't. In the UK there are very tough laws on data protection - some of the most comprehensive in the world - and a legislative authority in the ICO who has the power to fine comapnies who don't adhere to this. Collecting private identifiable data wouldn't just be a breach of the UK's Data Protection Act 1998, but also the Privacy and Electronic Communications (EC Directive) Regulations 2003, which has implications from Brussels. A company would be very foolish to break this in my opinion.

3) I'm inclined to agree with your third point. I think that, if advertising is used, the price of games should drop slightly. Not by a lot, but slightly. Don't forget, the need to include advertising is mostly because of the lost revenue through piracy.

Points 1 & 2 I agree that there is good legislative in EU, but countries outside EU might handle that more differently especially countries like China, US is not far from that. I'm not saying that some one will use your data like that, just pointing out the possibilities.

Point 3 - The introduction of in game adds and DRM software will increase the amount of piracy not decrease it. The best way to fight piracy is to produce games that people will want to pay money for, not force them to do that. For example look at GTA IV & Fallout 3 over 300 m$ in one week, you don't hear them complaining about piracy. Forcing adds and violating privacy of your buyers is a good way to stimulate piracy.

And if we first are getting ads in the game shouldn't it rather be ads for the place you play instead of where you live? I live in Norway but if i see norwegians adds when I play with AC Milan it would seem a little bit... weird.

You don't buy the lost revenue argument? Really? That argument would only stand if NO copies of FM08 were pirated. I'd be extremely surprised if that was the case.

Sorry, they lose no more than any other pc developer, while still managing more sales than most , i don't buy that lost revenue would force them into doing this , its likely a simple case of "we want more monies" which is fine , but again its a case of consumer 0 - 1 big bad company,