3D Engine a bit behind the times?

Had a brief look at the demo, and the 3d engine looks very lame.

An issue I have with the game is that there is no atmosphere at all, a World Cup final just feels the same as a Conference game.

Perhaps for future SI should consider adding a stadium, supporters and some light 3d effects??

3d effects such as... floodlights for night games, weather effects, bumpy pitches, supporter sounds- pro evo has a interested variety for different clubs/countries, ballons/ribbons etc...

would make the match day experience a lot more interesting!! So you could tell when you are playing an away FA cup match to a lower league and when you are playing the champions league final.

I expected more as regards the 3d engine, considering that SI have admitted that the underlying engine as same as the 2d, so can't imagine the 3d was actually that much effort in the current age.

One can hope for the future I guess.

I totally agree; they seem too lazy!

An issue I have with the game is that there is no atmosphere at all, a World Cup final just feels the same as a Conference game.

How did you reach the world cup final in a six months game?

Had a brief look at the demo, and the 3d engine looks very lame.

An issue I have with the game is that there is no atmosphere at all, a World Cup final just feels the same as a Conference game.

Perhaps for future SI should consider adding a stadium, supporters and some light 3d effects??

3d effects such as... floodlights for night games, weather effects, bumpy pitches, supporter sounds- pro evo has a interested variety for different clubs/countries, ballons/ribbons etc...

would make the match day experience a lot more interesting!! So you could tell when you are playing an away FA cup match to a lower league and when you are playing the champions league final.

I expected more as regards the 3d engine, considering that SI have admitted that the underlying engine as same as the 2d, so can't imagine the 3d was actually that much effort in the current age.

One can hope for the future I guess.

So you were expecting to go from 2D circles to Pro Evo in one leap?

Many people are experiencing problems playing the game on their machine the way it is now. It's not as if SI is not capable of doing more, it's about finding the right amount of detail just so most PC's can handle it. Give it a couple of years.

CM, Fm has always been low on graphical detail, the strenght of the game has been the indepth programing to resemble real life situations, competitions, tactics, finances and alot more.. the new 3D match engine is a new adition and i think its good. rome wasnt built in a day and in the futrue im sure with us the fans creative input, SI will improve all areas of the game..

How did you reach the world cup final in a six months game?

Exactly what I was thinking.

agree with above. criticism is fair, but the end result is that if graphics are you thing - FM isn't really for you. With everything balanced, the 3d engine makes the game better.

The 3D match engine doesn't need all those things. It is designed to be a representation of events, just like the 2D was. It doesn't need to look like Pro Evo, which actually replicates football matches. FM doesn't set out to replicate football matches. Its engine is just to give a representation.

This is why everyone doesn't or didn't like the 3D ME. Expectations are way too high. It may not look like FIFA but to be honest, I wasn't expecting it to.

i cant see what people dont like about the 3D

Its a lot better than most live football streams.

you cant play in the world cup final lol why are you lying liar. i question the sincerity of your thread.

i cant see what people dont like about the 3D

I wouldn't go that far. When I first saw it in action, I had my doubts.

i cant see what people dont like about the 3D

it doesnt look very good thats why people dont like it. what makes it good in my opinion is that its a step in the right direction. games have to develop and this is a starting point. if you have nothing you don't like about it then your very easy to please and it seems its fanboys like you who jump at the chance to slate people for having issues with the game.

The 3d is pretty rudimentary if we're being honest. I was hoping the players would be detailed enough that you could see their faces and recognise your facegen regens.

The 3D match engine doesn't need all those things. It is designed to be a representation of events, just like the 2D was. It doesn't need to look like Pro Evo, which actually replicates football matches. FM doesn't set out to replicate football matches. Its engine is just to give a representation.

Quite right, and if you get that you should love it, or choose 2d if not.

His point about the lack of atmosphere rings true across the series though. In FM08, the matchday experience is broadly the same for away at Wigan as it is for the Champions League final in the Bernabeu.

The 3D match engine doesn't need all those things. It is designed to be a representation of events, just like the 2D was. It doesn't need to look like Pro Evo, which actually replicates football matches. FM doesn't set out to replicate football matches. Its engine is just to give a representation.

i dont understand. so it doesnt set out to replicate football but it aims to give a representation - of a football game?

i dont understand. so it doesnt set out to replicate football but it aims to give a representation - of a football game?

Its job is exactly the same as the watching the match in 2D or just watching the commentary.

His point about the lack of atmosphere rings true across the series though. In FM08, the matchday experience is broadly the same for away at Wigan as it is for the Champions League final in the Bernabeu.

I really do agree with this. Some sort of sense of occasion needs to be developed beyond an old pro chipping in with his tuppence worth about what an achievement it is.

If people don't like the 3D ME then switch back to 2D. That's what's so good about the game, you have choices instead of some games where you can only play it one way.

Its job is exactly the same as the watching the match in 2D or just watching the commentary.

surely though the aim is to make it more than just a 3D representation of 2D, thats just silly. it must want to create more realism and therefore make an effort to replicate what football actualy looks like.

it doesnt look very good thats why people dont like it. what makes it good in my opinion is that its a step in the right direction. games have to develop and this is a starting point. if you have nothing you don't like about it then your very easy to please and it seems its fanboys like you who jump at the chance to slate people for having issues with the game.

i have plenty of issues and opinions about the game tnx friend'o.. as i already said, nothing is perfect and it is a step in the right direction, watching the 3d gives the game a whole new dimension, and for what it is is bloody good!!

it's already found out that hundreds of pc's can hardly cope with new tecnology and where it's heading, did you expect it to be like Fifa soccer 09 or somthing??

there are many improvments that can be made to it, and im sure they will be made in time unless SI get fed up of people slating the good work they do.

i dont like football managing games with fifa type graphics.i like how fm is with the commentary 2d and 3d

surely though the aim is to make it more than just a 3D representation of 2D, thats just silly. it must want to create more realism and therefore make an effort to replicate what football actualy looks like.

Well, then it depends how you look at it. If you compare it to FIFA, maybe it doesn't come out so well. However, it's also infinitely more realistic than anything FM has had before. Watching words on a screen or watching a bird's eye view of some circular dots buzzing about isn't even on the same plane of realism as the 3D match engine.

i have plenty of issues and opinions about the game tnx friend'o.. as i already said' date=' nothing is perfect and it is a step in the right direction, watching the 3d gives the game a whole new dimension, and for what it is is bloody good!!

it's already found out that hundreds of pc's can hardly cope with new tecnology and where it's heading, did you expect it to be like Fifa soccer 09 or somthing??

there are many improvments that can be made to it, and im sure they will be made in time unless SI get fed up of people slating the good work they do.[/quote']

no i didnt expect it to be like fifa 09, i never said i did.

there is a huge difference between 3D on fm and FIFA 09 i was not expecting it to be anywhere near as good.

like i said, this is starting point and obviously the aim is to improve the 3D graphics like any motivated developer would. you actualy questioned why anyone would not like 3D and now you are saying you have issues with it?

what you have to remember is, look how the new addition of 3d has caused alot of people problems with there graphics. for 1st attempt it is good to watch, even if the graphics are only 60-70% .. the amount of processing and memory the game takes up on a whole is huge, to add 3D and get it sopt on would be nothing short of a miracle..

allthough you are right in saying the graphics can be alot better, the actuall 3D effect and the new dimension it has given to the game is great!!

Well, then it depends how you look at it. If you compare it to FIFA, maybe it doesn't come out so well. However, it's also infinitely more realistic than anything FM has had before. Watching words on a screen or watching a bird's eye view of some circular dots buzzing about isn't even on the same plane of realism as the 3D match engine.

fair point and i agree that it does look a hell of a lot more realistic than the blobs

I agree, the 3D looks poor but that's not to say I don't like it,I do.I think the op's point is there is no difference between watching a non-league game and an international game, this is the point I agree with.

I think it's something SI will introduce over time and will enhance the match day experience.I wasn't expecting super graphics or fans,different stadia etc (I read this wasn't gonna happen) but, like 2D, once 3D has found its feet then this would be an obvious inclusion.

what you have to remember is' date=' look how the new addition of 3d has caused alot of people problems with there graphics. for 1st attempt it is good to watch, even if the graphics are only 60-70% .. the amount of processing and memory the game takes up on a whole is huge, to add 3D and get it sopt on would be nothing short of a miracle..

allthough you are right in saying the graphics can be alot better, the actuall 3D effect and the new dimension it has given to the game is great!![/quote']

when i had the demo on my laptop it struggled to run 3D but on my desktop it runs very nicely.

to make it spot on would indeed mean a lot more people wouldn't be able to experience it at all.

there is lot of potential anyway and i agree that the 3D even as it is gives a new dimension.

People who think FM is about graphics will always feel this way - people who realise that FM is about gameplay will see the pros of this system.

People who think FM is about graphics will always feel this way - people who realise that FM is about gameplay will see the pros of this system.

I think expectations about 3D will be lowered in future after this initial effort.I enjoy 3D, it allows you to analyse your tactics in a much better enviroment which is the purpose of this 3D.However, if tweaks to the graphics can be made without negative impact on the general gameplay then that is only a good thing.

Very good point ackter, and still, it's better atmosphere than 2D, plus they said they improved sound for the crowd, ok, it may be the same for each game(although i'm not sure, i'll be delighted if it is), you have to understand that it is another step towards the game ebing brilliant, just think what they can work on for 2010, let alone say 5 years time, also the reaction to a final/conference game is major as for the pre, and post match media, fan reaction, and that creates the atmosphere, as long as YOU believe you're in the final, and YOU want to win the game badly and you care, and the fans/media reaction is superb, THAT ALONE, should create the atmosphere, and the commentary reflects the importance aswell, so just think what it'll be like in a few years, and just believe you are the manager, and you'll be fine, just like in 08, the important thing is to not set your sights too high

I think some of the posters understand what I meant by my original post.

Having a deeper think about it, the same can be said about the 2d.

There is just NO atmosphere, or sense of occassion. No I did not play the WC Final, but I think you can understand what I am getting at.

I do like the 3D, just not as good as I expected, and I agree with one of the above posters that this is a step in the right direction.

I guess they could just as easily add stadiums and the effects for 2d view. The only thing they had in the last ver which was (slightly) noticable was the pitch size, would it be so hard to have 10 types of generic stadiums too to show the differences in where the game is being staged & have a representative number of supporters in the stands.

What I disagree with is those that think the game does not need that sense of occassion, no I do not expect it to be like FIFA or Pro Evo, FM is great- but there can always be improvements and I just see this as a major improvement that really would not require that much development. For example the sounds could be vastly improved quite easily- why not have different supporter chants and regional/tournament variations at the very least. Going to the extreme of what could be done but more effort would be having liverpool/celtic fans singing 'You will never walk alone'?? etc. or perhaps someone could mod this in?

It's not behind the times, but I was expecting a little more from it. However, the people who think that the 3D representation was going to be FIFA/Pro Evo style are just stupid.

I've played since CM 93/94 and for me, one of the main attractions has always been that you make your own atmosphere.

Just to play devils advocate here.

What was the point in having a 3D engine that looks like it belongs on an Amiga when a lot of low-end systems can't run it anyway? If we're going to exclude the lesser graphics card owning guys you might as well aim for Pro Evo 09. Hell aiming for ISS64 would be an improvement.

Either make it look so shoddy it runs on a postage stamp, or make it look so epic that the "stuck with 2D" guys feel they're missing something. Making it look shoddy and requiring a decent system kinda defeats the point.

/devils advocate

I agree that the World Cup Final wont look much. But FM has always done a poor job of differentiating between a tuesday away game at Eastbourne Boro and a World Cup Final at the San Siro.

Yes, its very dated. I guess SI wrote their first 3D engine without having any real history of this within their team... Not wanting to be rude, but it really shows. It shows they either have very little time (quite probable) between versions or low standards of quality control. I have the utmost respect for SI, after much playing of the demo I've pre-ordered the game even though I've been, at times, vocal about certain areas not being up to scratch; overall the game is still pure magic and the people at SI have made it so.

Having said that, I can see why a lot of people are quick to dismiss various features, especially the Match Engine. I was very dissapointed to begin with, but its grown on me and this is my preferred viewpoint now. Over time, with this release and those in the future, it will become much stronger. Not being able to differentiate between a Sunday league game and a World Cup final... well, its always been like that and that is a great example of how easy it is to reduce atmosphere. I guess they (SI) think many other things come first, but how many games have they made? Come on guys. Even some sound effects to differentiate would be good! Not just three samples and/or volume control.

There are things that completely baffle me - Why have they made it so that it sets up the Match Engine for the first highlight, thus eradicating some of the atmosphere? Why not load everything during the pro-longed (too long) match creation sequence? Why have they shipped with sliding (they dont walk) substitues warming up on the touchline? Why have they shipped with awful looking 'stadiums'? Expecting the community to fill in the blanks? Why is the UI still so awful for newcomers? Quality contol is poor (in my humble opinion) even if these things are secondary to the overall experience.

People can say it doesnt matter about the graphics, and they'd be right to a certain extent, but atmosphere is important and poor graphics, animation and processes are lowering atmosphere within the game somewhat. Hopefully patches will fix these niggles for it does look very rushed to me.

Sounds like I hate it all right? Far from it.

It's the best footie management game out there and I only spot half the negatives because I play the game so much I'm hooked again and its worth three times the price but it'd be worth six times the price if standards were somehow increased.

Quality contol us poor (in my humble opinion).

Not a good sentence for a typo

Not a good sentence for a typo

I didnt say my quality control was any better But I've patched it before the 14th

<wedges tongue in cheek>

I wonder. If Steam provides a patch distribution system, will those of us who register our copy by phone get one of the old "My Sinclair" style listings to type in? Of course it would have to be dictated over the phone to match our chosen authorisation method.

I'm sure 3D effects will come in time. Like others have said it's a first step. It will get better. I'd rather they did this than try too much and and fail miserably. A lot of NEW PCs are struggling with the current graphics, so if they were much better what would happen then? With everything else that happens, the amount of ram the engine (not the graphics) takes up, will render most PCs useless.

At the moment, yes it's simplistic, but by FM11 I reckon we'll all be pretty impressed.

But by the time FM11 comes out our expectations will be that much higher. With current process and resources at SI, I doubt we'll ever stand back in amazement, thats not what they are about.

The 3D match engine doesn't need all those things. It is designed to be a representation of events, just like the 2D was. It doesn't need to look like Pro Evo, which actually replicates football matches. FM doesn't set out to replicate football matches. Its engine is just to give a representation.

I disagree, if you are making a 3d engine is because you want to improve how the match experience looks and how the "representation of events" will look to the player and given that 3d mode should be atractive. I think that is a good step into a further develop, but in comparison with other manager games (like EA's one) FM is far far behind in this area. I know that's their first effort, but we're on 2008, not in 2001.

To be honest, I'd be more than happy with their representation (even if it looks painfully basic at times) if they were to eradicate some of the stupid things (players turning on a point, sliding without moving legs, sliding along touch line, linesman not walking properly, slow loading of highlights, the list goes on) which I'm hoping they will in the patches.

I think its more a lack of detail than just pure graphics IMO. A simplistic pixelated stadium with adboards would have sufficed, make it a bit more closed in so it doesn't look like they're playing in the local park.

Something like the new SWOS

It wouldn't have been any more demanding on systems, or would have required complex designing.

Yes, its very dated. I guess SI wrote their first 3D engine without having any real history of this within their team... Not wanting to be rude, but it really shows. It shows they either have very little time (quite probable) between versions or low standards of quality control.

I really don't understand people who say this. Without purchasing a 3D engine (which would cost quite a bit) everything has to be coded by SI. They've gone from 2D spinning circles to a pretty decent but basic 3D representation. Do you know how long it would take a small team like SI to get anywhere near the standard of Fifa or Pro Evo, or even to code stadiums for the top leagues around the globe? The Fifa you see today has evolved over the last 15 or so years, as it's a first try and obviusly not meant to be absaloutely stunning, it's an extremely good 3D view when you think of the games context and placeing in the market place. Unlike 2D now you can see Rooney lob the keeper from 20 yards, you can see Ronaldo smash a perfect free kick into the top corner and you can see VDS pull off a diving save from Torres......you can actually see the dynamics of what they're doing.

Having said that, I can see why a lot of people are quick to dismiss various features, especially the Match Engine. I was very dissapointed to begin with, but its grown on me and this is my preferred viewpoint now. Over time, with this release and those in the future, it will become much stronger. Not being able to differentiate between a Sunday league game and a World Cup final... well, its always been like that and that is a great example of how easy it is to reduce atmosphere. I guess they (SI) think many other things come first, but how many games have they made? Come on guys. Even some sound effects to differentiate would be good! Not just three samples and/or volume control.

Firstly the Match Engine is different from what you're talking about here. You're are talking about the Graphical Representation of the Match Engine. The ME is nearly perfect, just the standing on the ball for too long needs improving, penalty saving and maybe one on ones. In response to your other point....the atmosphere has always been produced by the person playing the game. You're never going to get individual team sound effects, and I dont know what else they can put in as I never play with sound effects anyway. You've always got the player/manager interaction before big games, news items, old players commenting and now you've also got press conferences.

There are things that completely baffle me - Why have they made it so that it sets up the Match Engine for the first highlight, thus eradicating some of the atmosphere? Why not load everything during the pro-longed (too long) match creation sequence? Why have they shipped with sliding (they dont walk) substitues warming up on the touchline? Why have they shipped with awful looking 'stadiums'? Expecting the community to fill in the blanks? Why is the UI still so awful for newcomers? Quality contol is poor (in my humble opinion) even if these things are secondary to the overall experience.

Setting up the highlights after kick off is one of the few things that does annoy me I don't really care about the substitutes thing, as I'm not bothered about watching the subs. I've explained the stadiums thing in my first post. UI is pretty simple, my brother can easily use it and he's 10. None of these things would fall under Quality Control. They're just improvements to things that work the way they are supposed to.

People can say it doesnt matter about the graphics, and they'd be right to a certain extent, but atmosphere is important and poor graphics, animation and processes are lowering atmosphere within the game somewhat. Hopefully patches will fix these niggles for it does look very rushed to me.

So you're telling me you got more atmosphere from the commentary only days of CM and the 2D spinning circles of FM's?

Sounds like I hate it all right? Far from it.

It's the best footie management game out there and I only spot half the negatives because I play the game so much I'm hooked again and its worth three times the price but it'd be worth six times the price if standards were somehow increased.

Don't get me wrong there is obviously scope for a better looking 3D interpretation, but anybody who was expecting more from the first incarnation is dillusional.

And what SuperStriker has posted above would've been fine, but wouldn't people complain even more if Man U had the exact same stadium as Basingstoke Town?. SI could've left out the ability to show stadiums altogether, but they've put in place the basics so that people who enjoy codeing graphics for these kind of things can have their skills shown. And what's wrong with that?

The 3D match engine doesn't need all those things. It is designed to be a representation of events, just like the 2D was. It doesn't need to look like Pro Evo, which actually replicates football matches. FM doesn't set out to replicate football matches. Its engine is just to give a representation.

Agree..

If SI tries to make 3D looks like FIFA or Pro then I am afraid lots of people will drop the game...Other aspects of the game are most important and could be improved but not the 3D..

As mentioned several times this is a MANAGER GAME...What is the point of having super 3D graphics?

I just want to watch how my tactics apply to the pitch and I really don't care at all about the graphics that's why I had no problem if the game had stayed with the 2D representation..

Agree..

If SI tries to make 3D looks like FIFA or Pro then I am afraid lots of people will drop the game...Other aspects of the game are most important and could be improved but not the 3D..

As mentioned several times this is a MANAGER GAME...What is the point of having super 3D graphics?

I just want to watch how my tactics apply to the pitch and I really don't care at all about the graphics that's why I had no problem if the game had stayed with the 2D representation..

Lots of people will drop the game. Even more people will pick up the game. There's nothing wrong with making 'super 3D graphics', as technology improves it's bound to happen. The problem is if they can implement a convincing engine with the resources they have available.