Just found something amazing!!! Must see!!!

Ok...so we all know that if you give a player 200 CA in editor that his attribute will be scaled down and that he will not have all values of 20.

Well after finding one interesting "tool" today that "weights" all attributes for every position, I played a little with it and found some amazing conclusions.

IT'S POSSIBLE FOR PLAYERS TO HAVE ALLMOST ALL ATTRIBUTES OF 20. It's not cheating, theoreticaly it's possible to stay within the CA 200 limit and to have allmost all attributes of 20, altough there is no way that such setup could happen in game.

I will post more details tomorow, cause I don't know what to think now.

I THINK THIS SYSTEM IS SERIOUSLY FAWLED CAUSE THERE ARE SOME UNLOGIC STEPS YOU HAVE TO TAKE IN GAME TO TRY TO TWEAK THE PLAYER TO GIVE HIM BIGGER ATTRIBUTES INCLUDING TRAINING PLAYERS FOR SOME OTHER POSITIONS (striker to DC or DL/WBL positions for example).

P.S. This is for FM 2008, for FM 2009 is very similar!!!

P.P.S. When you see a coach report of this player (Ibrahimovic edited in editor), he have 7 star rating in a club that have one of the biggest reputation in game.

He is rubbish....He cant use his left foot!!!

Sometimes ignorance is bliss. The game presents you with a reality which is for the most part acceptible. Once you start delving into how attributes are weighted it spoils the illusion.

I don't worry how the attributes are derived, or notice whether two footed players are comparible with one footed players. I just look at the attributes and think "oh bother, he's going to rip my defence apart - he's quite good."

How is that not cheating ? lol

do you mean using a real-time modifier? There were some for 08.

Sometimes ignorance is bliss. The game presents you with a reality which is for the most part acceptible. Once you start delving into how attributes are weighted it spoils the illusion.

I don't worry how the attributes are derived, or notice whether two footed players are comparible with one footed players. I just look at the attributes and think "oh bother, he's going to rip my defence apart - he's quite good."

Great post, I totally agree. I'd rather SI put all the technical stuff into how attributes become what they are and me just have fun with them, rather than me getting the game and ripping all of the ingredients out of the system. Sort of like a carton of orange juice; the orange juice company can put it together, but what goes into it really doesn't concern me. I just like to enjoy it.

Wow!

Tell me when you find a regen that has full 20 stats, without using any editors.

Sometimes ignorance is bliss. The game presents you with a reality which is for the most part acceptible. Once you start delving into how attributes are weighted it spoils the illusion.

I don't worry how the attributes are derived, or notice whether two footed players are comparible with one footed players. I just look at the attributes and think "oh bother, he's going to rip my defence apart - he's quite good."

I agree, that's why the current attributes feature has no future.

It's not cheating

Riiiight.

There isn't a massive flaw with the system. The current system has worked fine for years, it's fine the way it is IMO.

He is rubbish....He cant use his left foot!!!

What about this guy?

Sometimes ignorance is bliss. The game presents you with a reality which is for the most part acceptible. Once you start delving into how attributes are weighted it spoils the illusion."

Sometimes I think like you, but when you know there is a way to improve things and you know how, it's hard not to do so (similar like corner-cheat for example). But I don't see the problem with that. Problem is that you have to take some UNLOGIC steps to improve your players.

do you mean using a real-time modifier? There were some for 08.

No, not that. I use a program that weighted attributes for each position, and after experimenting a while, I found nearly perfect combination to maximise stats(I said nearly cause I have to use mathematical models to make it 100% accurate, but I'm happy with 1% mistake). Of course player is edited in normal editor that comes with game, but that is proof that in theory you can have such a player...

1) it's cheating

2) it's not realistic

3) i think afther a few weeks his stats will drop again, because he has hit the roof.

OK...so here is explanation how things work...

Every position have some weight for each attribute. In this example we will analyze striker.

Most important attributes for each pure striker are finishing, first touch, techique, dribbling, composure, off the ball, acceleration, agility, pace, jumping, strenght...

On the other side there are some attributes which weight for striker position is very, very low, like tackling and marking.

So...every attribute uses some CA points. For example if you are 5 CA points below PA for striker, you can reach his PA by giving to player 2 points of finishing attribute, or giving him 20 points for tackling attribute (this finishing:tackling=1:10 is not exactly the proportion of stats, just example).

...and now...what happens if player can play in both STRIKER and DC position? Well you change the weight of every attribute for player, cause his "striking" attributes are not so high weighted anymore, because his "defensive" attributes are weighted more. Now...when player can play both on ST and DC position, attacking attributes (finishing, first touch...) have same weight like defending att (marking, tackling...).

That means that you can fill his 5 CA points with 10 points of finishing or with 10 points of tackling.

So...when comparing these 2 players, they have same CA, but while 1st player gets 2 point of finishing, 2nd gets 10 pts of finishing and it's clearly that he is better for ST position.

When examining database, I saw lot of players who can play as DC and ST, so you can easily play with them without editing anything.

Of course, you can further improve your striker if you give him another position (DL or DR for example) because weight of his attacking attributes falls even more now, so you can give him more of this attributes to fill his CA.

Also bear in mind that weight of defending attributes are raising with this process. So...in theory, if you have a striker with marking and tackling of 20, retraining him to DC position will increase the weight of defending attributes, so you can easily be above his CA. That means that all attribute have to be scaled down just to reflect his CA, so at the and, by retraining player, you'll get worse player.

Of corse, in game you don't have strikers with such defensive att, but it is possible in theory.

Do this mean that if I have a striker with very low defensive skills (for example tackling, bravery marking all low) and I train him to become a defender, the shift in weighted attributes will make his skills rise a lot?

1) it's cheating

2) it's not realistic

3) i think afther a few weeks his stats will drop again, because he has hit the roof.

1. I don't say the people have to do this in editor, when I play a gam efor my pleasure, I don't use editor, scouts and other, this is just a example that can happen in theory!!!

2.Yes, that's the same I'm talking, it's not realistic...CONCLUSION...CODING IS FLAWLED

3, You obviously don't understand how the system works. No...his stats will not drop cause he is within CA limit.

I edited player in normal editor, and when I started the game his stats are like I edited (so, full of 20's).

In normal circumstances when you give the player CA of 200 and all attributes of 20, his att will scale down gradually,

Do this mean that if I have a striker with very low defensive skills (for example tackling, bravery marking all low) and I train him to become a defender, the shift in weighted attributes will make his skills rise a lot?

YES, that's exactly what will happen, of course...if your player is versatile and if you can train him to DC position and if you keep his defensive stats (marking, tackling) low. So...no training in this category for him.

I'm struggling to see what the point of this thread is?

That's very odd! I'm curious though. How good must he become at a new position to shift the weight of attributes?

I understand. Very good work Ljuba82. But I think it's still cheating. The way I understand it for example.

If you have a young striker -19 for example- with a very good PA. If you retrain him to be a Central Defender but never give him defence training and do the normal striker training; he will be a much better striker. Good work.

That's very odd! I'm curious though. How good must he become at a new position to shift the weight of attributes?

I'm not sure yet, I'll investigate, but I think that rating of 14 is enough. The more you are going to 20, more your atacking stat weight will drop

I understand. Very good work Ljuba82. But I think it's still cheating. The way I understand it for example.

If you have a young striker -19 for example- with a very good PA. If you retrain him to be a Central Defender but never give him defence training and do the normal striker training; he will be a much better striker. Good work.

Hmmm...it's not the point that it's cheating (anyway I don't like to use such kind of stuff, it spoils my pleasure)...the point is WHY WE HAVE POSIBILITY TO DO THAT??? HOW PROGRAMMERS, OR WHOEVER MAKE DECISION OF CODING FAILED TO SPOT THIS??? HOW THIS PASS THROUGH???

None of this happens when playing the game as normal - you have to go out of your way to make it happen.

Ljuba82 is right. Try and retrain Pato or someone else with a high PA, first to central MC and then central defender. Now watch how striker abilities grow a lot.

None of this happens when playing the game as normal - you have to go out of your way to make it happen.

Agreed. If you don't want to use it, don't.

How long would it take for the new position rating go from 0 to 14+?

Both players can't tackle and can't mark. They're useless unless they gets a pass to them, cos they can't win the ball like most people.

I agree that it works and that it's strange, but how should SI do it? The weighting of attributes is very important for the balance of the game!

Ok you are telling me that it's no cheating because you can do it in game. Well you can also create a new manager and let him take over Real Madrid to sell him all players for nothing. You can also take FM Modifier and change the attributes. It's cheating BECAUSE YOU DO SOMETHING THAT YOU WOULDN'T DO NORMALLY. You are retraining a striker to DC and let him train as a striker nonetheless.

This has no effect on the game. If one really wants to retrain a striker to a DC (which is very unlikely, even with regens, because they are created with attributes that fit more or less to their position), he wouldn't give him striker training at all.

So where's the problem? This is nothing that has to be fixed (and I think it can't be fixed easily at all), because why should someone use this method? If somebody wants to have a realistic game, he won't do that. If somebody wants to cheat, he can easily use a modifier programm.

Ok with that corner cheat thing from FM08 I can understand at least a bit that people keep saying "but why should I restrict myself to use a method which is normal in football?? That's no cheating!"

But honestly, that is nothing which interferes with a normal FM09 game, so let it be

Thread is a massive let down imo. Its nothing amazing to see a player maxed out with stats via the editor. You could do this on previous versions of FM, and get them all to 20's too, very easily. Hardly "amazing". Sorry.

(I said nearly cause I have to use mathematical models to make it 100% accurate, but I'm happy with 1% mistake).

Please, do tell about these "mathematical models" you had to use...

I think that this may be a flaw in the code but you've had to go right out of your way to find it. If the game is played normally this could never be an issue. Not sure that it would effect enough players across the database to become a real problem.

Thread is a massive let down imo. Its nothing amazing to see a player maxed out with stats via the editor. You could do this on previous versions of FM, and get them all to 20's too, very easily. Hardly "amazing". Sorry.

exactly my thoughts, not amazing just cheating

Both players can't tackle and can't mark. They're useless unless they gets a pass to them, cos they can't win the ball like most people.

You just make me lough...

Thread is a massive let down imo. Its nothing amazing to see a player maxed out with stats via the editor. You could do this on previous versions of FM, and get them all to 20's too, very easily. Hardly "amazing". Sorry.

Ok...then try to max out player ratings in editor and then start a game and then watch his attributes in game.

I said what will happen...all attributes will be scaled down, cause CA rating of 200 is just enough for players to get 16 (average) all across the board.

Player would have to have somewhere around 275-280 CA to have all his attributes of 20, which is obviously impossible, cause we are limited to 200.

But if you have a player who is capable of playing on ST, DC, DR and DL position, you can get a beast like this on picture.

IT JUST HAVE NO SENSE...to train player to some defensive positions...just to get a beast striker.

...How much I like people who don't know what are they talking...

I agree that it works and that it's strange, but how should SI do it? The weighting of attributes is very important for the balance of the game!

Ok you are telling me that it's no cheating because you can do it in game. Well you can also create a new manager and let him take over Real Madrid to sell him all players for nothing. You can also take FM Modifier and change the attributes. It's cheating BECAUSE YOU DO SOMETHING THAT YOU WOULDN'T DO NORMALLY. You are retraining a striker to DC and let him train as a striker nonetheless.

This has no effect on the game. If one really wants to retrain a striker to a DC (which is very unlikely, even with regens, because they are created with attributes that fit more or less to their position), he wouldn't give him striker training at all.

So where's the problem? This is nothing that has to be fixed (and I think it can't be fixed easily at all), because why should someone use this method? If somebody wants to have a realistic game, he won't do that. If somebody wants to cheat, he can easily use a modifier programm.

Ok with that corner cheat thing from FM08 I can understand at least a bit that people keep saying "but why should I restrict myself to use a method which is normal in football?? That's no cheating!"

But honestly, that is nothing which interferes with a normal FM09 game, so let it be

I do understand your point, but for my point of view...everything what you do in game without using any editors or tools from outside isn't cheating.

It's same like "corner-cheat". I wouldn't say that players are cheating if they are exploiting something that is fault of SI programmers...

I mean...In that logic...what is next??? Maybe someone will tomorrow find a taktics like "Diablo"...and someone will blame him for cheating. But IMO he just find the way to beat the AI while watching games.

If I want to play 1-4-5 formation it's my choice. For the programmers is to "punish me" via defeats of my team. So if I want to get a beast from ST, I will do anything...including training ST to DC while giving him no defending training. It's my choice. For programmers is to stop me by giving me REALISTIC, PLAYABLE GAME.

So please don't defend something that is undefendable. THIS IS SERIOUS PROBLEM and a good sign that something with CA/PA/POSITIONS method is wrong.

I would appreciate if someone from SI give their comments on this...

There is a big difference between this and the 'corner cheat'. You did not have to fiddle with editors etc to expose the corner issue and therefore many gamers discovered it and had to change tactics to avoid it. Many people (rightly or wrongly) do not like the use of editors and will never use them. This is why this may not be as important an issue as you think.

Hey people...you don't have to use editor for this!!!

I used it just because I was curious and to show you example.

...and it turns out that something what was on my mind was correct...and that this IS a problem...

...as I said...I don't like using anything while playing. It spoils fun. No editors, scouts, no searching for a good player or tactics on forums...I like to THINK and try my best, but I do like to be "reworded" or "punished" for my decisions by game that is realistic.

...and when I found something like this...it spoils my pleasure, cause it's not realistic...

Hey people...you don't have to use editor for this!!!

I used it just because I was curious and to show you example.

...and it turns out that something what was on my mind was correct...and that this IS a problem...

...as I said...I don't like using anything while playing. It spoils fun. No editors, scouts, no searching for a good player or tactics on forums...I like to THINK and try my best, but I do like to be "reworded" or "punished" for my decisions by game that is realistic.

...and when I found something like this...it spoils my pleasure, cause it's not realistic...

Sorry, I appear to have misunderstood. So you have discovered that by training a versitile S C to be a D C (for example) but not altering their S C training regime, that their S C related stats keep going up? This would be a problem that SI need to look at.

you're right, but i don't think many FM players will use this to pump up player stats. AI certenly won't. and it's quite an easy thing to fix. the majoritiy of strikers would refuse to retrain to DC position irl...

Before I read this I saw a young player with natural WBR/MR/AMR (davide santon) I bought him and I was retraining him to be a DR to be a backup -because I had no talented DR backups- while I was actually intending to use him primarily as an AMR. In this situation I would have naturally discovered this flaw. What I mean is you can discover it trough usual sitiutions and not unrealistic ones like ST/DC.

I still don't get why this is a problem.

I still don't get why this is a problem.

the guy in the screenshot is normal ?

the guy in the screenshot is normal ?

No. But why is that a problem?

no comment mate.

no comment mate.

Thats a big help. I'm serious, why is it a problem? Maybe Ljuba82 can explain it to me.

From what I can see this is an exploit, thats all. If you don't want to exploit the system to make a player like this, then you won't.

Sorry, I appear to have misunderstood. So you have discovered that by training a versitile S C to be a D C (for example) but not altering their S C training regime, that their S C related stats keep going up? This would be a problem that SI need to look at.

Exactly

you're right, but i don't think many FM players will use this to pump up player stats. AI certenly won't. and it's quite an easy thing to fix. the majoritiy of strikers would refuse to retrain to DC position irl...

...nice solution for SI...this really have to be fixed...

Before I read this I saw a young player with natural WBR/MR/AMR (davide santon) I bought him and I was retraining him to be a DR to be a backup -because I had no talented DR backups- while I was actually intending to use him primarily as an AMR. In this situation I would have naturally discovered this flaw. What I mean is you can discover it trough usual sitiutions and not unrealistic ones like ST/DC.

I just checked. By retraining a player who can play as AMR/MR/WBR to DR...you can get 7 CA, so it's nice increase, very easily to get, but by retraining your ST to DR, DC and DL position you can get allmost 40 CA...so if you have a versatile, young player with PA of 200 for example...maybe after a while he will look like he have CA of 240

BTW...players on screenshot look like they have CA of around 240

Thats a big help. I'm serious, why is it a problem? Maybe Ljuba82 can explain it to me.

From what I can see this is an exploit, thats all. If you don't want to exploit the system to make a player like this, then you won't.

If I couldn't explain you with all this posts above, then I also really don't have comment

In short...problem is that it's not realistic to train a player to DC position while giving him no defending training, just in purpose to make a beast ST of him...

cheers

what's the corner cheat?

I started reading this thread and thought "So what?", but actually Ljuba is right ... it's a big loophole, and you don't have to use the editor. Well done on finding it.

This is a classic example of a hidden flaw.

Yes, you could argue that it's not a normal way to increase the attributes of a player, but it just shouldn't be possible. Period.

Definitely a big flaw in my opinion, but also one that's easy to solve. SI just have to make sure that a STR refuses to learn DC as a new position. Problem solved.

Nice thinking though, Ljuba.

In short...problem is that it's not realistic to train a player to DC position while giving him no defending training, just in purpose to make a beast ST of him...

Like I said.....

If you don't want to exploit the system to make a player like this, then you won't.

It's a nice find, I'm impressed you managed to find this. SI should be able to fix this by diminishing a players position when they learn another one, if that other position is too far away from the one they are trying to learn.

This is a classic example of a hidden flaw.

Yes, you could argue that it's not a normal way to increase the attributes of a player, but it just shouldn't be possible. Period.

Definitely a big flaw in my opinion, but also one that's easy to solve. SI just have to make sure that a STR refuses to learn DC as a new position. Problem solved.

Nice thinking though, Ljuba.

Doing that wouldn't work, as there are some cases where a striker would agree to train as a defender.

It doesn't "really have to be fixed" because 99.9% of people are not going to work it out and hence not going to have a problem with it! And those that do know can choose not to exploit it, if they so wish.

There are players that used to be strikers as youth players and switched to DC or others that used to be DC as youth players and switched to being strikers. A big example would be Gallas. So for SI to say that a DC cannot retrain to be a striker or a striker cannot retrain to be a DC would be unrealistic too.

There are players that used to be strikers as youth players and switched to DC or others that used to be DC as youth players and switched to being strikers. A big example would be Gallas. So for SI to say that a DC cannot retrain to be a striker or a striker cannot retrain to be a DC would be unrealistic too.

But we can safely say that Gallas isn't as effective playing as a striker anymore now right? So it's logical for the game to make players other positions go bad when they get good at another.