heathxxx Posted February 4, 2008 Author Share Posted February 4, 2008 Below are some extracts of posts in a thread I posted in the T&TT forum regarding use of sliders... <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">by OCDPOKER: Hate to burst everyones bubble, but I am playing FML beta and have it on good authority from one of the testing team that there are actually only 5 notches that work 0, 5, 10, 15, & 20...apparently Mentality 16 or 17 for instance is just the same as 15 and so on....just what I've been told... </div></BLOCKQUOTE> <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">by heathxxx: VERY interesting to hear, but could this just be for FM Live or the boxed release? Would be nice to know either way. I have to say though, I have noticed a distinct difference in how players react to say, creative freedom 0 or creative freedom 2 - going by what your suggesting means that 0 or 2 will be equal in the game engine. </div></BLOCKQUOTE> <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">by heathxxx: Just a thought also - is'nt the FM Liver match engine slightly different? </div></BLOCKQUOTE> <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">by OCDPOKER: This apparently is for the current match engine on FM 08...u should get clarification though as it was the excuse they used for changiing the live version from 20 notches to 5 a few days ago...so it was more universal to new users as the other setting were the same anyway... </div></BLOCKQUOTE> Obviously this information has given me cause for concern and I would just like to confirm if this in fact true... or not, as the case may be. I was under the impression that FM Live has a slightly different game engine anyway, though would have thought it's based on the current FM08 engine originally. If the 0-20 sliders actually only "work" in steps of 0,5,10,20 and not the 0-20 that we're led to believe - then this will effectively render alot of topics in the T&TT forum pointless and obsolete and also make a big difference in how many players understand and play the game. Thoughts, opinions and specifically some comment from SI would be appreciate, even if it's to confirm or debunk what I've read. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
heathxxx Posted February 4, 2008 Share Posted February 4, 2008 Below are some extracts of posts in a thread I posted in the T&TT forum regarding use of sliders... by OCDPOKER: Hate to burst everyones bubble, but I am playing FML beta and have it on good authority from one of the testing team that there are actually only 5 notches that work 0, 5, 10, 15, & 20...apparently Mentality 16 or 17 for instance is just the same as 15 and so on....just what I've been told... by heathxxx: VERY interesting to hear, but could this just be for FM Live or the boxed release? Would be nice to know either way. I have to say though, I have noticed a distinct difference in how players react to say, creative freedom 0 or creative freedom 2 - going by what your suggesting means that 0 or 2 will be equal in the game engine. by heathxxx: Just a thought also - is'nt the FM Liver match engine slightly different? by OCDPOKER: This apparently is for the current match engine on FM 08...u should get clarification though as it was the excuse they used for changiing the live version from 20 notches to 5 a few days ago...so it was more universal to new users as the other setting were the same anyway... Obviously this information has given me cause for concern and I would just like to confirm if this in fact true... or not, as the case may be. I was under the impression that FM Live has a slightly different game engine anyway, though would have thought it's based on the current FM08 engine originally. If the 0-20 sliders actually only "work" in steps of 0,5,10,20 and not the 0-20 that we're led to believe - then this will effectively render alot of topics in the T&TT forum pointless and obsolete and also make a big difference in how many players understand and play the game. Thoughts, opinions and specifically some comment from SI would be appreciate, even if it's to confirm or debunk what I've read. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
FrazT Posted February 4, 2008 Share Posted February 4, 2008 If this is true ( and I hope it is not,) it does make a nonsense of all the work that the tactical gurus have put in for years in working on CM/FM tactics. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
NepentheZ Posted February 4, 2008 Share Posted February 4, 2008 its not true. And if it is true, its not true. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
SI Staff PaulC Posted February 4, 2008 SI Staff Share Posted February 4, 2008 Its not true. All that has happened is that FML beta currently uses 5 slider positions instead of 20. This just limits the settings available within that game. Its of no consequence to FM. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mitja Posted February 4, 2008 Share Posted February 4, 2008 well it's not so hard to make a little test... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Amaroq Posted February 4, 2008 Share Posted February 4, 2008 Thanks for the quick rumour-dismissal, Paul! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
heathxxx Posted February 4, 2008 Author Share Posted February 4, 2008 <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by PaulC: Its not true. All that has happened is that FML beta currently uses 5 slider positions instead of 20. This just limits the settings available within that game. Its of no consequence to FM. </div></BLOCKQUOTE> Thanks for the confirmation of that PaulC and very quick off the mark too I can now return to my tactical den with my loosely scribbled notes, weird and wonderful diagrams, with complete satisfaction. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
heathxxx Posted February 4, 2008 Author Share Posted February 4, 2008 Got me thinking though now... Will this change be be something SI is plan to implement for future boxed releases such as FM09 or is it just something implemented for FM Live for more "ease of use"? I only ask because although I'm personally happy with the sliders as they are, I understand that alot of people struggle with the huge amount of variable they can present and hence the many "this game is really difficult now" type posts. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
SI Staff PaulC Posted February 4, 2008 SI Staff Share Posted February 4, 2008 <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by heathxxx: Got me thinking though now... Will this change be be something SI is plan to implement for future boxed releases such as FM09 or is it just something implemented for FM Live for more "ease of use"? I only ask because although I'm personally happy with the sliders as they are, I understand that alot of people struggle with the huge amount of variable they can present and hence the many "this game is really difficult now" type posts. </div></BLOCKQUOTE> Its an experiment in the FML beta. I dont see it being introduced to FM anytime soon..... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
heathxxx Posted February 4, 2008 Author Share Posted February 4, 2008 Thanks again for your reply Paul Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mitja Posted February 4, 2008 Share Posted February 4, 2008 I tried a little test; half a team closing down to 0 and other half to 4 notches. the resoult is not even that it was hard to notice any difference, I started doubting if closing down even works like it should..... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
heathxxx Posted February 4, 2008 Author Share Posted February 4, 2008 Not really a balanced test though Mitja. Might have been better to look for differences between 1-5, 5-10, 10-15, 15-20. I think of the effects of closing down as similar but in an opposite sense tactically to creative freedom notches on the slider. Anywhere between 1-5 is'nt going to show a huge amount of difference really, unless you're watching a considerable number of full games in the match engine, or notice significant changes in the post-match stats. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
KK2003 Posted February 4, 2008 Share Posted February 4, 2008 <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Mitja: I tried a little test; half a team closing down to 0 and other half to 4 notches. the resoult is not even that it was hard to notice any difference, I started doubting if closing down even works like it should..... </div></BLOCKQUOTE> Did you not read the previous posts in the thread mate? PaulC (who I believe is in charge of the match engine) has said it isn't true for FM. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
heathxxx Posted February 4, 2008 Author Share Posted February 4, 2008 <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by KK2003: <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Mitja: I tried a little test; half a team closing down to 0 and other half to 4 notches. the resoult is not even that it was hard to notice any difference, I started doubting if closing down even works like it should..... </div></BLOCKQUOTE> Did you not read the previous posts in the thread mate? PaulC (who I believe is in charge of the match engine) has said it isn't true for FM. </div></BLOCKQUOTE> I think Mitja understands fine now. It's just we were all a little concerned with a post we saw in a thread in T&TT. I imagine he just wanted to have a quick look for himself to see if there was any noticable difference. Notch-by-notch slider changes can make a difference, but only in tandem with other slider changes to make any noticable difference. EG - If you're moving closing down up a single notch, you might also want to lower creative freedom a notch to see a bit of a difference, and so on... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
George Graham Posted February 4, 2008 Share Posted February 4, 2008 <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by PaulC: Its not true. All that has happened is that FML beta currently uses 5 slider positions instead of 20. This just limits the settings available within that game. Its of no consequence to FM. </div></BLOCKQUOTE> That so needs to be implemented in FM. Not that some of us havent been asking for it for a couple of years...... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
George Graham Posted February 4, 2008 Share Posted February 4, 2008 <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by PaulC: <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by heathxxx: Got me thinking though now... Will this change be be something SI is plan to implement for future boxed releases such as FM09 or is it just something implemented for FM Live for more "ease of use"? I only ask because although I'm personally happy with the sliders as they are, I understand that alot of people struggle with the huge amount of variable they can present and hence the many "this game is really difficult now" type posts. </div></BLOCKQUOTE> Its an experiment in the FML beta. I dont see it being introduced to FM anytime soon..... </div></BLOCKQUOTE> Dont you guys see the obvious need for this to be done? The reason for this is twofold: 1) If we assume the differences between notches are fairly subtle then any changes we make are likely to be imperceptible during a match. This in turn contributes to the player feeling that trial and error rather than educated changes (thanks to the lack of feedback the game provides) is how they got their tactic to work. 2) If (1) is not true and the effects of a notch change are big changes that are visible, then a fairly minor change in terms of the way the notches are presented to us can have a major effect on a tactic that are out of proportion with the number of notches. We really need some kind of median here- as it is we can only be operating at one of two extremes. Neither are very satisfactory seeing as we have next to no feedback on how tactics work or dont. If you must persist with 20 notches then at least present the effects graphically- defensive line, width, mentality (in terms of positioning) and closing down are 3 that spring to mind. A lot of these things have been mentioned for a long time, how long before we move away from unintuitive system we have been stuck with for far too long? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mitja Posted February 5, 2008 Share Posted February 5, 2008 <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by KK2003: <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Mitja: I tried a little test; half a team closing down to 0 and other half to 4 notches. the resoult is not even that it was hard to notice any difference, I started doubting if closing down even works like it should..... </div></BLOCKQUOTE> Did you not read the previous posts in the thread mate? PaulC (who I believe is in charge of the match engine) has said it isn't true for FM. </div></BLOCKQUOTE> yes mate I did....I just don't take things for granted. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mitja Posted February 5, 2008 Share Posted February 5, 2008 <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by George Graham: <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by PaulC: <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by heathxxx: Got me thinking though now... Will this change be be something SI is plan to implement for future boxed releases such as FM09 or is it just something implemented for FM Live for more "ease of use"? I only ask because although I'm personally happy with the sliders as they are, I understand that alot of people struggle with the huge amount of variable they can present and hence the many "this game is really difficult now" type posts. </div></BLOCKQUOTE> Its an experiment in the FML beta. I dont see it being introduced to FM anytime soon..... </div></BLOCKQUOTE> Dont you guys see the obvious need for this to be done? The reason for this is twofold: 1) If we assume the differences between notches are fairly subtle then any changes we make are likely to be imperceptible during a match. This in turn contributes to the player feeling that trial and error rather than educated changes (thanks to the lack of feedback the game provides) is how they got their tactic to work. 2) If (1) is not true and the effects of a notch change are big changes that are visible, then a fairly minor change in terms of the way the notches are presented to us can have a major effect on a tactic that are out of proportion with the number of notches. We really need some kind of median here- as it is we can only be operating at one of two extremes. Neither are very satisfactory seeing as we have next to no feedback on how tactics work or dont. If you must persist with 20 notches then at least present the effects graphically- defensive line, width, mentality (in terms of positioning) and closing down are 3 that spring to mind. A lot of these things have been mentioned for a long time, how long before we move away from unintuitive system we have been stuck with for far too long? </div></BLOCKQUOTE> I can agree that there are too many notches for time wasting, or creative freedom but to have only 5 notches for mentality or width it would be as "feeling like a child who's food is already chewed on so i can eat easier", as someone said.... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
steves_smith Posted February 5, 2008 Share Posted February 5, 2008 QUOTE] Dont you guys see the obvious need for this to be done? The reason for this is twofold: 1) If we assume the differences between notches are fairly subtle then any changes we make are likely to be imperceptible during a match. This in turn contributes to the player feeling that trial and error rather than educated changes (thanks to the lack of feedback the game provides) is how they got their tactic to work. 2) If (1) is not true and the effects of a notch change are big changes that are visible, then a fairly minor change in terms of the way the notches are presented to us can have a major effect on a tactic that are out of proportion with the number of notches. We really need some kind of median here- as it is we can only be operating at one of two extremes. Neither are very satisfactory seeing as we have next to no feedback on how tactics work or dont. If you must persist with 20 notches then at least present the effects graphically- defensive line, width, mentality (in terms of positioning) and closing down are 3 that spring to mind. A lot of these things have been mentioned for a long time, how long before we move away from unintuitive system we have been stuck with for far too long? Don't get me wrong because I love playing the game but I would have thought that SI want as much mystique surrounding the game as possible as this creates the talking points etc. If this was gone then the game might lose it's popularity. Are we in fact searching for things that aren't actually there at all? Sometimes I wonder myself, do the sliders actually make much difference, because it seems to me like that sometimes? I've won games before only to realise at the end of the match that my settings were all messed up! Maybe that's the answer Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
George Graham Posted February 5, 2008 Share Posted February 5, 2008 <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Mitja: <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by George Graham: <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by PaulC: <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by heathxxx: Got me thinking though now... Will this change be be something SI is plan to implement for future boxed releases such as FM09 or is it just something implemented for FM Live for more "ease of use"? I only ask because although I'm personally happy with the sliders as they are, I understand that alot of people struggle with the huge amount of variable they can present and hence the many "this game is really difficult now" type posts. </div></BLOCKQUOTE> Its an experiment in the FML beta. I dont see it being introduced to FM anytime soon..... </div></BLOCKQUOTE> Dont you guys see the obvious need for this to be done? The reason for this is twofold: 1) If we assume the differences between notches are fairly subtle then any changes we make are likely to be imperceptible during a match. This in turn contributes to the player feeling that trial and error rather than educated changes (thanks to the lack of feedback the game provides) is how they got their tactic to work. 2) If (1) is not true and the effects of a notch change are big changes that are visible, then a fairly minor change in terms of the way the notches are presented to us can have a major effect on a tactic that are out of proportion with the number of notches. We really need some kind of median here- as it is we can only be operating at one of two extremes. Neither are very satisfactory seeing as we have next to no feedback on how tactics work or dont. If you must persist with 20 notches then at least present the effects graphically- defensive line, width, mentality (in terms of positioning) and closing down are 3 that spring to mind. A lot of these things have been mentioned for a long time, how long before we move away from unintuitive system we have been stuck with for far too long? </div></BLOCKQUOTE> I can agree that there are too many notches for time wasting, or creative freedom but to have only 5 notches for mentality or width it would be as "feeling like a child who's food is already chewed on so i can eat easier", as someone said.... </div></BLOCKQUOTE> Thats why I said they should be represented graphically (where I say "If you must persist with 20.." )- a real manager can use a whiteboard or similar to show positioning etc. The only difference is that whereas irl the whiteboard is used to allow the players to understand the manager easily, in FM it would be so that we could see what the option -should- be doing. Theres no excuse for such an important area as tactics to be so shoddily designed, its not as if we have all suddenly realised this area is in need of work in FM08, this is something that SI have ignored for a couple of releases now. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mitja Posted February 5, 2008 Share Posted February 5, 2008 agreed. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
steves_smith Posted February 5, 2008 Share Posted February 5, 2008 It would certainly make things a lot clearer and easier but like I said earlier, maybe this is not something tha SI want. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hawshiels Posted February 5, 2008 Share Posted February 5, 2008 <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by PaulC: Its not true. All that has happened is that FML beta currently uses 5 slider positions instead of 20. This just limits the settings available within that game. Its of no consequence to FM. </div></BLOCKQUOTE> Apologies for making a relatively pointless post here, but I'd just like to thank PaulC also for coming on here and dismissing this one right away. It just shows that SI are on the forums and happy to help those that they know are on here for constructive (criticism or praising) purposes. Thanks Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mitja Posted February 5, 2008 Share Posted February 5, 2008 even though you might be right, you have no proof what you said before, just like what I said before about closing down not working, I'm sure SI won't bother with that, at least not when only a couple of guys are moaning about it.... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Powermonger Posted February 5, 2008 Share Posted February 5, 2008 <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Thats why I said they should be represented graphically (where I say "If you must persist with 20.." )- a real manager can use a whiteboard or similar to show positioning etc. The only difference is that whereas irl the whiteboard is used to allow the players to understand the manager easily, in FM it would be so that we could see what the option -should- be doing. Theres no excuse for such an important area as tactics to be so shoddily designed, its not as if we have all suddenly realised this area is in need of work in FM08, this is something that SI have ignored for a couple of releases now. </div></BLOCKQUOTE> Fully agree. I'd like the sliders to be replaced with graphical elements arranged and manipulated on the main positional view. This is the mock up I did before christmas, you may of seen it before in the original thread back then. It's not replacing the sliders, just representing them in a better context and hopefully more intuitive concept. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
George Graham Posted February 5, 2008 Share Posted February 5, 2008 <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by steves_smith: QUOTE] Dont you guys see the obvious need for this to be done? The reason for this is twofold: 1) If we assume the differences between notches are fairly subtle then any changes we make are likely to be imperceptible during a match. This in turn contributes to the player feeling that trial and error rather than educated changes (thanks to the lack of feedback the game provides) is how they got their tactic to work. 2) If (1) is not true and the effects of a notch change are big changes that are visible, then a fairly minor change in terms of the way the notches are presented to us can have a major effect on a tactic that are out of proportion with the number of notches. We really need some kind of median here- as it is we can only be operating at one of two extremes. Neither are very satisfactory seeing as we have next to no feedback on how tactics work or dont. If you must persist with 20 notches then at least present the effects graphically- defensive line, width, mentality (in terms of positioning) and closing down are 3 that spring to mind. A lot of these things have been mentioned for a long time, how long before we move away from unintuitive system we have been stuck with for far too long? </div></BLOCKQUOTE> Don't get me wrong because I love playing the game but I would have thought that SI want as much mystique surrounding the game as possible as this creates the talking points etc. If this was gone then the game might lose it's popularity. Are we in fact searching for things that aren't actually there at all? Sometimes I wonder myself, do the sliders actually make much difference, because it seems to me like that sometimes? I've won games before only to realise at the end of the match that my settings were all messed up! Maybe that's the answer Well if SI have deliberately created this mystique (which I personally doubt) then it is a poor move, as it would just act as a barrier to people actually enjoying the game. Its quite amazing SI have actually made it harder than it is for a real manager in a real job to put across tactical ideas. How weird is that? SI have actually made it so that one of us would actually be able to put across our tactical ideas better in real life, than how we can in FM. SI- its a game (I wonder if they actually realise this anymore), its not meant to be more of a chore than real life! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
steves_smith Posted February 5, 2008 Share Posted February 5, 2008 <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Powermonger: <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Thats why I said they should be represented graphically (where I say "If you must persist with 20.." )- a real manager can use a whiteboard or similar to show positioning etc. The only difference is that whereas irl the whiteboard is used to allow the players to understand the manager easily, in FM it would be so that we could see what the option -should- be doing. Theres no excuse for such an important area as tactics to be so shoddily designed, its not as if we have all suddenly realised this area is in need of work in FM08, this is something that SI have ignored for a couple of releases now. </div></BLOCKQUOTE> Fully agree. I'd like the sliders to be replaced with graphical elements arranged and manipulated on the main positional view. This is the mock up I did before christmas, you may of seen it before in the original thread back then. It's not replacing the sliders, just representing them in a better context and hopefully more intuitive concept. </div></BLOCKQUOTE> The link to the mock up doesn't seem to be working. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
steves_smith Posted February 5, 2008 Share Posted February 5, 2008 It is now. Not sure if this makes anything clearer but I get your point. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Powermonger Posted February 5, 2008 Share Posted February 5, 2008 <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by steves_smith: It is now. Not sure if this makes anything clearer but I get your point. </div></BLOCKQUOTE> I was too lazy write up the legend Basically any graphical element outlined in red is a team setting, yellow outlines are individual settings. The shaded arcs projecting from the positions are the closing down settings. The squiggly arrows represent run with ball, forward runs are the dotted lines, the horizontal lines before each position with arrows each end are zonal marking, dots below positions means man marking. Anyway, it's a fairly rough example and I left off a few settings but it is more to illustrate a possible design direction. The thing I like it about the most is that's its very simple to view at a glance how the whole tactic is setup instead of having to delve through individual settings and team settings. Currently I record all the tactics I design in a spreadsheet for easier reference but I wish I didn't have to. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mitja Posted February 5, 2008 Share Posted February 5, 2008 I don't think tactical system is so bad. of course thigs could be allways better but bigger problem is how it is represented in match engine. I think ME is the one responsibile for our headaches. there is not much point to have 20 notches of creative freedom if some basic things like positioning/movement doesn't work properly...you get my point I hope. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
George Graham Posted February 5, 2008 Share Posted February 5, 2008 <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Powermonger: <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Thats why I said they should be represented graphically (where I say "If you must persist with 20.." )- a real manager can use a whiteboard or similar to show positioning etc. The only difference is that whereas irl the whiteboard is used to allow the players to understand the manager easily, in FM it would be so that we could see what the option -should- be doing. Theres no excuse for such an important area as tactics to be so shoddily designed, its not as if we have all suddenly realised this area is in need of work in FM08, this is something that SI have ignored for a couple of releases now. </div></BLOCKQUOTE> Fully agree. I'd like the sliders to be replaced with graphical elements arranged and manipulated on the main positional view. This is the mock up I did before christmas, you may of seen it before in the original thread back then. It's not replacing the sliders, just representing them in a better context and hopefully more intuitive concept. </div></BLOCKQUOTE> I remember that thread- and like the mock up. I really dont see why SI havent done this in any form yet- after all its not changing the underlying mechanics, so surely its a pretty easy change for SI to make but one that could improve the game immeasurably for many. I also think that by seeing it this way would help us all diagnose why say a player was out of position- as perhaps we could use it to analyse the game and overlay the tactical instructions over the match and "show" the players where they may have gone wrong. In the days of interactive whiteboards, prozone and Andy Grays gizmo on Sky such a tool probably is maybe quite realistic. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Powermonger Posted February 5, 2008 Share Posted February 5, 2008 <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">In the days of interactive whiteboards, prozone and Andy Grays gizmo on Sky such a tool probably is maybe quite realistic. </div></BLOCKQUOTE> Yes the football world is going very high-tech but there seems to be a resistance to allow FM to better relate to real life but instead keep us resorting to pen and paper. Realism works both ways. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
George Graham Posted February 5, 2008 Share Posted February 5, 2008 <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Powermonger: <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">In the days of interactive whiteboards, prozone and Andy Grays gizmo on Sky such a tool probably is maybe quite realistic. </div></BLOCKQUOTE> Yes the football world is going very high-tech but there seems to be a resistance to allow FM to better relate to real life but instead keep us resorting to pen and paper. Realism works both ways. </div></BLOCKQUOTE> lol- its getting to the point that I might have to invest in an interactive whiteboard and projector until SI sort this out. Although I suspect my wife will tell me to get stick half of a transparent plastic file to my screen and use a marker. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
George Graham Posted February 5, 2008 Share Posted February 5, 2008 Just had this picture of Andy Gray on his "Last Word" show complaining about this new system he has been given that uses sliders. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Powermonger Posted February 5, 2008 Share Posted February 5, 2008 <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Although I suspect my wife will tell me to get stick half of a transparent plastic file to my screen and use a marker. </div></BLOCKQUOTE> I know...all future versions of FM will be bundled with a Wacom tablet to better instruct our players by Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mitja Posted February 5, 2008 Share Posted February 5, 2008 teaching players tactics? exellant idea just think how flawd it'd be Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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