Positional 'bug' still present

this has been reported many times on FM08 and maybe even on FM07 (not sure)...why does the game make every natural AMC, AMR, AML into accomplished MC, MR, ML?

i know that many natural AMC's would be able to play as CM's, even if they don't. the problem is that AI can pick players like messi, ronaldinho, kaka...to play as MC's. position which they don't play in real life.

i don't understand the thinking behind it. is it hard to fix? this was never an issue before FM08 (FM07)...

Isn't this more of a problem with the AI choosing formations? Rarely will I see the AI using a formation with an AML or AMR, more often will I see them using an AMC but still not too often. So these AML's are playing in ML roles and as a result are learning the position.

I agree I would like this fixed but it isn't real high on my list of problems, since they still retain their 'natural' AML position then when I sign them they can go into an AML role straight away.

Isn't this more of a problem with the AI choosing formations? Rarely will I see the AI using a formation with an AML or AMR, more often will I see them using an AMC but still not too often. So these AML's are playing in ML roles and as a result are learning the position.

I agree I would like this fixed but it isn't real high on my list of problems, since they still retain their 'natural' AML position then when I sign them they can go into an AML role straight away.

the problem is with players like messi (amr/l/c) that will be used as central midfielders.

yes I don't have problem with wingers either. just AMC's.

this shouldn't be hard to fix.

yes I don't have problem with wingers either. just AMC's.

this shouldn't be hard to fix.

I actually think this has been fixed for AMCs already already. I just had a look at Totti and he's only an awkward MC, despite being an Accomplished AMC.

i checked natural AM' messi and ronaldinho...and they're accopmlished

How come my left back ends up at the right wing,my central defender ends up running up the park thinking hes a striker ? Same with the AI this is totally wrong and needs fixed

what was going on? you mean in the game they were moving odd, or their positions were messed?

this has been reported many times on FM08 and maybe even on FM07 (not sure)...why does the game make every natural AMC, AMR, AML into accomplished MC, MR, ML?

They don't. I've seen natural AMR and AML that has no other positional ability. And that is much worse I think.

are you sure?

They don't. I've seen natural AMR and AML that has no other positional ability. And that is much worse I think.

I agree. How can someone be natural in AMR/L and yet not be able to play MR/L?! It's crazy, and means if you get a great regen/player who is like this, you have to adjust your formation accordingly, which is annoying.

I agree. How can someone be natural in AMR/L and yet not be able to play MR/L?! It's crazy, and means if you get a great regen/player who is like this, you have to adjust your formation accordingly, which is annoying.

Or re-train them?

ML/MR has far more defensive responsibilities than AML/AMR does. Perhaps they have an inability to track back and defend, and are only any use at all attacking? In which case, just AML makes sense.

Or re-train them?

ML/MR has far more defensive responsibilities than AML/AMR does. Perhaps they have an inability to track back and defend, and are only any use at all attacking? In which case, just AML makes sense.

But in this case their attributes will hinder them from tracking back. Things like tackling, team work, determination etc will all detract from their ability to track back. And also, ML/MR will only have more defensive responsibilities if your tactics are set up for them to do so.

It's completely realistic that these players can start from a MC/ML/MR position and tactically be set to play a lot more attacking. In Messi's case I'm guessing he's played MC in the past, possibly at youth team level and probably played very attacking from MC, and could probably do a decent job there now if his manager decided to play him in that position.

Or re-train them?

ML/MR has far more defensive responsibilities than AML/AMR does. Perhaps they have an inability to track back and defend, and are only any use at all attacking? In which case, just AML makes sense.

you're right. there are players, mostly natural strikers, who are able to play as wingforwards in 4-3-3 for example, but who never play as wingers in 4-4-2. that makes sense to me.

In Messi's case I'm guessing he's played MC in the past, possibly at youth team level and probably played very attacking from MC, and could probably do a decent job there now if his manager decided to play him in that position.

that's only a guess. he could have easily played as striker but then moved to AM and wing position. i agree he could play as MC but he doesn't and that's the problem.

that's only a guess. he could have easily played as striker but then moved to AM and wing position. i agree he could play as MC but he doesn't and that's the problem.

You're right it is just a guess, but so is your claim that he can't play in central midfield. I'm sure the researchers know a lot better than we do the positions such well known players can and in the past have played in.

You say yourself that you agree he could play as a MC, so what's the problem with him having this listed as one of his positions in the game? Is it simply a problem because he doesn't play in that position for Barcelona? Walcott doesn't play as a striker for Arsenal but that doesn't mean he shouldn't have striker listed as one of his positions in the game.

i checked natural AM' messi and ronaldinho...and they're accopmlished

Accomplished and Natural is not the same in relation to performance on the pitch!

You can see it in Coach Report - for natural position (or best position) there is often one star higher rating as it is for accomplished positions.

Check it properly.

Ashley Young:

AML - 5 stars (best position, natural one)

AMR - 4 stars (accomplished)

ML - 4 stars (accomplished)

MC - 3 stars etc.

You're right it is just a guess, but so is your claim that he can't play in central midfield. I'm sure the researchers know a lot better than we do the positions such well known players can and in the past have played in.

it's not researchers who assigned him to have MC ability. messi's or ron's MC ability was set to 1, in fm08 (probably still the same). it's the game which adds MC accomplished position to every natural AMC, what's so hard to understand here?

also i'm not saying it's a big issue that would make the game unplayable. it's just that some AMC's could end up regulary playing as MC's, which they don't play IR and were not given any ability there by researchers.

it's not researchers who assigned him to have MC ability. messi's or ron's MC ability was set to 1, in fm08 (probably still the same). it's the game which adds MC accomplished position to every natural AMC, what's so hard to understand here?

also i'm not saying it's a big issue that would make the game unplayable. it's just that some AMC's could end up regulary playing as MC's, which they don't play IR and were not given any ability there by researchers.

The problem isn't that the game makes natural AMCs accomplished MCs (this makes sense to me), the problem is that AI managers are unrealistically weighting positional choices. Few managers in RL would play a great natural attacking player in a defensive position in which the player is only accomplished unless it was in an emergency. Managers are more likely to change their tactics to fit the player rather than waste their attacking talent.

you have every right to think so. personally i wouldn't like every AMC who never plays MC IRL, to play it regulary in FM.

also if researchers think these players have 'no ability' to play that position - they shouldn't. it's similar issue for me as 'footedness bug', but not so big.

this game is suposed to simulate RL football as close as it can.

you have every right to think so. personally i wouldn't like every AMC who never plays MC IRL, to play it regulary in FM.

also if researchers think these players have 'no ability' to play that position - they shouldn't. it's similar issue for me as 'footedness bug', but not so big.

this game is suposed to simulate RL football as close as it can.

We agree on ur first point, but disagree on the second. Researchers put in the positions that players play for the teams they play for at the moment. The researchers don't "truly" know how comfortable a player is at playing every single position. This is a problem inherent in any sports game. I don't think there's any problem with SI allowing the engine to supplememt the observation of the researchers with common sense (i.e. it would make sense that if a player is a great AMC that they would at least be a decent MC, or that if they are a great AML they would at least be an adequate ML)

^ Fair point, but the boost given is too much. I play an outdated FM 08 patch, and it has made Eduardo da Silva a natural AMC, which I disagree with already, and then the game makes him an accomplished MC which is rubbish. I can maybe understand how it's silly when a player is given only the one natural position in the attacking midfield line and no ability in any other position, but making the competent in that position should be enough rather than accomplished. That way the AI will be more reluctant to play them there.

Also, I think this should only happen when given position only in the one 'line' if you will, the lines being the defence line, Wingback and DM line, Midfield line, attacking midfield line, ect. So if a play is an AMC/ST like Messi, then he won't get the addition bonus as a MC, but Kaka will. And that makes sense as he probably merits it more than Messi.

This has been bugging me since it was introduced, remember starting threads about it in the past. My main problem is not that a natural (20) AM gets accomplished (15) MC, it's that an accomplished (15) AM also get accomplished (15) MC. That's being lazy on SI's part. If SI insist on putting this in the game do it like this:

20 AM --> 15 MC

19 AM --> 14 MC

18 AM --> 13 MC

17 AM --> 12 MC

16 AM --> 11 MC

15 AM --> 10 MC

Same with wingers --> wide midfielders and DM's --> MC's. Way more realistic.

you have every right to think so. personally i wouldn't like every AMC who never plays MC IRL, to play it regulary in FM.

also if researchers think these players have 'no ability' to play that position - they shouldn't. it's similar issue for me as 'footedness bug', but not so big.

this game is suposed to simulate RL football as close as it can.

I wouldn't say it was a bug although I do see where you are coming from in that not all AM's would be accomplished CM's. Having said that, I think if they are an incredible talent like Messi then it is likely they would be accomplished in CM too. Can you honestly say that Messi wouldn't be an accomplished CM, he'd probably be better there than 99% of CM's in football. There should probably just be better manager AI that would make them play players in their natural positions more often.

Also I would imagine that if players have 1 as the rating for positions then the level they are in other positions is related to the proximity of the other position to the natural position, the versatility rating of the player and the CA of the player (in terms that having a world class player slightly out of position is most likely better than a not so good player in their natural position)

Can't see why natural AM can't be accomplished MC. I see no reason why Kaka/Messi/Ronaldo/ronaldinho can't play at MC.

Accomplished doesn't mean world beater, just means they can do ok there.

They can dribble, they can pass and they can shoot, why can't they be an ok MC?

Sure, they can't tackle as much, but that doesn't mean they'll be complete flops at being a MC.

To be fair it's vastly unrealistic if an AMC cannot at all play the MC position.

Depending on his attributes he might be noticably worse there, but a player who irl can play in the gap will always be able to make a certain impact on the MC position as well.

If the researcher thinks/knows that a player has no ability in a certain position why should he have any ability in that position in the game?

If the researcher thinks/knows that a player has no ability in a certain position why should he have any ability in that position in the game?

But there are so many players that it is impossible for every position to be monitored for every player especially if they only ever play in the same position in reality. Back to the Messi example, he always plays as a right forward for Barca and that would be his natural position. It is pretty easy to say he can play AM, and being left footed he'd pretty easily be able to play LW also to a level that would make him one of the best LW in the world.

But how is the researcher going to be able to accurately say whether he can play those positions if he has never seen him play there during research? It certainly doesn't mean he wouldn't be accomplished in those positions. His high CA and stats would make him suited to playing in a number of positions that aren't his natural position. If he also has high versatility he is likely to be more accomplished in positions that aren't his natural.

Of course if a researcher thinks that the player isn't good in a certain position they should rate it that way, but in most cases players are able to adapt a little from their natural position but it is down to their ability and versatility just how much. So ranking a player as 1 in a position allows the code to calculate how good the player might be in other positions based on their ability and versatility. It would take way too long (and may not even be possible) to research each player in every position possible.

But there are so many players that it is impossible for every position to be monitored for every player especially if they only ever play in the same position in reality. Back to the Messi example, he always plays as a right forward for Barca and that would be his natural position. It is pretty easy to say he can play AM, and being left footed he'd pretty easily be able to play LW also to a level that would make him one of the best LW in the world.

But how is the researcher going to be able to accurately say whether he can play those positions if he has never seen him play there during research? It certainly doesn't mean he wouldn't be accomplished in those positions. His high CA and stats would make him suited to playing in a number of positions that aren't his natural position. If he also has high versatility he is likely to be more accomplished in positions that aren't his natural.

Of course if a researcher thinks that the player isn't good in a certain position they should rate it that way, but in most cases players are able to adapt a little from their natural position but it is down to their ability and versatility just how much. So ranking a player as 1 in a position allows the code to calculate how good the player might be in other positions based on their ability and versatility. It would take way too long (and may not even be possible) to research each player in every position possible.

But in the game a player can still play well in a certain position if they have the right attributes even though they have no positional ability in that position. Surely that could apply to Messi as well? So why should we set a position that he never plays IRL? If somebody wanted to use him in as an MC and he had no MC ability in the game he'd still play well because of creative ability.

To be fair it's vastly unrealistic if an AMC cannot at all play the MC position.

Depending on his attributes he might be noticably worse there, but a player who irl can play in the gap will always be able to make a certain impact on the MC position as well.

That might be true but the problem with the game is that a player that is a 20 in the AM C position, but it is not right that he should be set to 15 in the M C by the game if the researcher has set his M C position to 1. 5 or maybe 10 could be more realistic.

But in the game a player can still play well in a certain position if they have the right attributes even though they have no positional ability in that position. Surely that could apply to Messi as well? So why should we set a position that he never plays IRL? If somebody wanted to use him in as an MC and he had no MC ability in the game he'd still play well because of creative ability.

Because in most cases they are far less likely to perform well in a position they are not suited to and will maybe even complain about being played out of position and end up with a low morale. They may play the odd game well completely out of position, but they would likely be far less consistent and not nearly as effective.

Also if a player shows some ability to play certain positions it may encourage the manager to coach that player to learn that position and learn to play it better (to maybe fill a role that is needed in the team). Sure if you are Barcelona and have a huge squad full of players it might not apply but in other clubs it would. You have a much better chance of training someone to play a position they show some ability to perform in.

That might be true but the problem with the game is that a player that is a 20 in the AM C position, but it is not right that he should be set to 15 in the M C by the game if the researcher has set his M C position to 1. 5 or maybe 10 could be more realistic.

Again, that would depend on the CA of the player and the versatility. If the player had high versatility and high ability then they would likely be excellent in a number of positions other than their 'natural'.

i find this strange as well. i often playing AML/ AMR as ML and MR respectively.

but they tend to have the red dot next to them when i do. it doesn't seem to make too much difference to their overall rating or performances though.

perhaps thats because i'm telling them to make forward runs so they are basically playing in an attacking left/right postition anywya.

sorry, i've just realised your saying that they shouldn't be good in a normal midfield role?

i actually find that most attacking midfielders are strangely rated as not capable of playing in that role.