Could this be a Future Match Engine??

I just saw this here http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport2/hi/football/euro_2008/7444230.stm?goalid=501998

Who else thinks this could be the basis for a match engine in FM 2012. I know SI games already probably know about this technology but I was surprised how realistic it looked and how it seemed to cover many body actions. I would only want a match engine like this if it was the quality of the 2d.

If it takes as long to load on the internet than it does in the game then I think not.

BUT... That is very good graphicaly. It would be a welcome feature to an upcoming game in FM IMO.

Gotta admit the "ball cam" is really cool.

As long as we had the 'soccerdots' as the default view, it could be very cool in terms of watching key moments in replays/post match.

you beat me to it, was going to suggest the same thing after watching ruud boys goal on there. oh and btw it takes about a second to load, must be your internet.

i would welcome it, no need to go all fifa and have faces down the the last freckle, as long as hair colour and skin colour are right i could live with it.

heh...and people were saying 3d is impossible, we dont have the technology yet and other nonsense. And now i see a perfectly okayish engine written using a bloody shockwave.

Originally posted by jakobx:

heh...and people were saying 3d is impossible, we dont have the technology yet and other nonsense. And now i see a perfectly okayish engine written using a bloody shockwave.

Yes, because most of those people wouldn't know a programming language from a bloody mango.

It's been perfectly possible to have something that is much better than the current graphical representation for *years*.

Originally posted by jakobx:

heh...and people were saying 3d is impossible, we dont have the technology yet and other nonsense. And now i see a perfectly okayish engine written using a bloody shockwave.

I might be wrong here as I am not a programmer or web designer, but the bbc represenataton is not an engine that has produced this, but merely a movie created using shockwave to display graphical frames that someone has spent time creating which are then simply played out in an ordered sequence like a movie.

FM would require the same thing to be done on the fly, meaning it can't be pre-programmed in to display that kind of view, otherwise we would be limited in the manner to which a goal can be scored as it would need someone at SI to create the movies from what they know and they might not be able to create more than maybe a couple of dozen different types of goal which they would then have to do for every possible team that might be playing. I am sure it would take a lot more work to generate that some people might think.

Originally posted by jakobx:

heh...and people were saying 3d is impossible, we dont have the technology yet and other nonsense. And now i see a perfectly okayish engine written using a bloody shockwave.

The difficulty isn't displaying a 3d representation, that's relatively straightforward (as this example shows). The difficulty is the AI that's generating the match, which isn't present at all in this example (as it's just replicating a real life match).

It would be a great addition to the game especially the Goal of the Month.

Reminds me of early versions of PES

Originally posted by bigdunk:

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by jakobx:

heh...and people were saying 3d is impossible, we dont have the technology yet and other nonsense. And now i see a perfectly okayish engine written using a bloody shockwave.

The difficulty isn't displaying a 3d representation, that's relatively straightforward (as this example shows). The difficulty is the AI that's generating the match, which isn't present at all in this example (as it's just replicating a real life match). </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

exactly. as much as this would be a great representation of the match engine, it would probably only be possible as LMA manager style repetitive highlights. don't be fooled, it is just mapped on the actual event during the hol vs ita game, and not generated by any AI.

nobody said 3d was impossible, but linking a 3d representaion to the current match engine (which i quite like now) isn't as easy at people think. i would not like it if SI put presentation over quality and go backwards with the current ME.

Originally posted by Jbaker:

I might be wrong here as I am not a programmer or web designer, but the bbc represenataton is not an engine that has produced this, but merely a movie created using shockwave to display graphical frames that someone has spent time creating which are then simply played out in an ordered sequence like a movie.

FM would require the same thing to be done on the fly, meaning it can't be pre-programmed in to display that kind of view, otherwise we would be limited in the manner to which a goal can be scored as it would need someone at SI to create the movies from what they know and they might not be able to create more than maybe a couple of dozen different types of goal which they would then have to do for every possible team that might be playing. I am sure it would take a lot more work to generate that some people might think.

That sounds like complete rubbish to me.

The graphical representation needs to do nothing more than to represent where the dots ALREADY ARE IN THE AI, and WHAT THEY ARE ALREADY DOING. *Just like it's doing now*. It's got nothing to do with having movies. Let's not get hung up on that because this game was on TV. Just represent where the dots are, and what they are doing. Jumping/Tackling/Shooting. It's really not rocket science in 2008, and I defy ANYONE who has any programming knowledge to tell me otherwise (that precludes all you who think Pong would be impossible). Have you people even seen what was being done graphically FIFTEEN YEARS ago, let alone now?

TWO people wrote Elite 25+ years ago. With this attitude they would have deemed it beyond impossible and never done it.

--------------

Now if you told me the current AI on what's happening on the pitch is far too lacking, and it would show itself up if shown in 3D, well then we've got an entirely different argument. And I'd be much less inclined to disagree.

But lets not dredge up more "it can't be done" arguments, the "would take up too many resources" ones are bad (and thin) enough.

It's pretty, but I need to see more of the pitch than those views give. That's why I like the top-down 2D we already have. I can see the whole pitch at once. I tried putting the linked vids on top-down-whole-pitch, and I couldn't see the ball. And the men were...<gasp>...dots.

id like a mix of the two. what we have no would be fine if it was dolled up a bit then maybe this for replays of the goals/chances. best of both worlds then.

Originally posted by wwfan:

As long as we had the 'soccerdots' as the default view, it could be very cool in terms of watching key moments in replays/post match.

Exactly what I thought

Aw, how cute.

Shame such detail on FM would require a machine ten times more powerful that my dual 2 core with 2GB ram. Not to mention the humongous amount of programming time taken away from the actual features. Perhaps 2012 is a fair guess, but I'd say it'd be cutting it fine.

I've said it before and I'll say it again. 3D graphics on FM are mere window dressing, and while I wouldn't be against it in principle I'd just prefer SI to FIRST perfect the bits that do not work the way they should (confidence, newgens), and improve the bits that do work (press comments, 4-2-4 realism, etc).

Once the actual gameplay has reached the level SI are clearly aiming for, THEN seriously look into 3D.

Originally posted by JohnShaft:

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Jbaker:

I might be wrong here as I am not a programmer or web designer, but the bbc represenataton is not an engine that has produced this, but merely a movie created using shockwave to display graphical frames that someone has spent time creating which are then simply played out in an ordered sequence like a movie.

FM would require the same thing to be done on the fly, meaning it can't be pre-programmed in to display that kind of view, otherwise we would be limited in the manner to which a goal can be scored as it would need someone at SI to create the movies from what they know and they might not be able to create more than maybe a couple of dozen different types of goal which they would then have to do for every possible team that might be playing. I am sure it would take a lot more work to generate that some people might think.

That sounds like complete rubbish to me.

The graphical representation needs to do nothing more than to represent where the dots ALREADY ARE IN THE AI, and WHAT THEY ARE ALREADY DOING. *Just like it's doing now*. It's got nothing to do with having movies. Let's not get hung up on that because this game was on TV. Just represent where the dots are, and what they are doing. Jumping/Tackling/Shooting. It's really not rocket science in 2008, and I defy ANYONE who has any programming knowledge to tell me otherwise (that precludes all you who think Pong would be impossible). Have you people even seen what was being done graphically FIFTEEN YEARS ago, let alone now?

TWO people wrote Elite 25+ years ago. With this attitude they would have deemed it beyond impossible and never done it.

--------------

Now if you told me the current AI on what's happening on the pitch is far too lacking, and it would show itself up if shown in 3D, well then we've got an entirely different argument. And I'd be much less inclined to disagree.

But lets not dredge up more "it can't be done" arguments, the "would take up too many resources" ones are bad (and thin) enough. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>Take the example of

Having determined that player X will compete with player Y for the header and attempt to direct it towards position Z, the match engine then does a calculation involving player attributes and mental state to determine that player X outjumps player Y, successfully reaching the ball but misdirecting the ball in an arc which misses position Z.

This is represented in a 2D match engine as one dot overlapping another and the ball moving off on the match engine derived trajectory.

In the vast majority of 3D engines, it would be represented using one of a limited number of programmed motion-sequences of two player wireframes jumping, with the match engine determined trajectory of the incoming ball (and subsequent header) frequently not perfectly coorresponding to the 3D engine rendering of players moving along predetermined lines.

Therefore you either end up with daft looking inconsistencies with player and ball movements or (like most 3D sports engines) program ball movements to be strictly limited to correspond with a limited range of pre-determined possible player motions.

Originally posted by backpackant:

Aw, how cute.

Shame such detail on FM would require a machine ten times more powerful that my dual 2 core with 2GB ram. Not to mention the humongous amount of programming time taken away from the actual features. Perhaps 2012 is a fair guess, but I'd say it'd be cutting it fine.

I've said it before and I'll say it again. 3D graphics on FM are mere window dressing, and while I wouldn't be against it in principle I'd just prefer SI to FIRST perfect the bits that do not work the way they should (confidence, newgens), and improve the bits that do work (press comments, 4-2-4 realism, etc).

Once the actual gameplay has reached the level SI are clearly aiming for, THEN seriously look into 3D.

3D engine would obviously be done by someone else and not someone from SIs current team. Its a different skillset which means everyone else would keep on adding new features(hopefully more efficiently and with less bugs than what they are doing lately). There is no reason why it wouldnt work on your machine if it can display a shockwave 3d engine then it most surely can run a proper hardware accelerated 3d engine that is many many many times faster than one written in shockwave.

Originally posted by arrogantio:

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by JohnShaft:

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Jbaker:

I might be wrong here as I am not a programmer or web designer, but the bbc represenataton is not an engine that has produced this, but merely a movie created using shockwave to display graphical frames that someone has spent time creating which are then simply played out in an ordered sequence like a movie.

FM would require the same thing to be done on the fly, meaning it can't be pre-programmed in to display that kind of view, otherwise we would be limited in the manner to which a goal can be scored as it would need someone at SI to create the movies from what they know and they might not be able to create more than maybe a couple of dozen different types of goal which they would then have to do for every possible team that might be playing. I am sure it would take a lot more work to generate that some people might think.

That sounds like complete rubbish to me.

The graphical representation needs to do nothing more than to represent where the dots ALREADY ARE IN THE AI, and WHAT THEY ARE ALREADY DOING. *Just like it's doing now*. It's got nothing to do with having movies. Let's not get hung up on that because this game was on TV. Just represent where the dots are, and what they are doing. Jumping/Tackling/Shooting. It's really not rocket science in 2008, and I defy ANYONE who has any programming knowledge to tell me otherwise (that precludes all you who think Pong would be impossible). Have you people even seen what was being done graphically FIFTEEN YEARS ago, let alone now?

TWO people wrote Elite 25+ years ago. With this attitude they would have deemed it beyond impossible and never done it.

--------------

Now if you told me the current AI on what's happening on the pitch is far too lacking, and it would show itself up if shown in 3D, well then we've got an entirely different argument. And I'd be much less inclined to disagree.

But lets not dredge up more "it can't be done" arguments, the "would take up too many resources" ones are bad (and thin) enough. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>Take the example of

Having determined that player X will compete with player Y for the header and attempt to direct it towards position Z, the match engine then does a calculation involving player attributes and mental state to determine that player X outjumps player Y, successfully reaching the ball but misdirecting the ball in an arc which misses position Z.

This is represented in a 2D match engine as one dot overlapping another and the ball moving off on the match engine derived trajectory.

In the vast majority of 3D engines, it would be represented using one of a limited number of programmed motion-sequences of two player wireframes jumping, with the match engine determined trajectory of the incoming ball (and subsequent header) frequently not perfectly coorresponding to the 3D engine rendering of players moving along predetermined lines.

Therefore you either end up with daft looking inconsistencies with player and ball movements or (like most 3D sports engines) program ball movements to be strictly limited to correspond with a limited range of pre-determined possible player motions. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

This post is perceptive and is a point that a lot of people have been missing.

The current 2d engine isnt 100%

Untill it is, keep it.

Originally posted by jakobx:

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by backpackant:

Aw, how cute.

Shame such detail on FM would require a machine ten times more powerful that my dual 2 core with 2GB ram. Not to mention the humongous amount of programming time taken away from the actual features. Perhaps 2012 is a fair guess, but I'd say it'd be cutting it fine.

I've said it before and I'll say it again. 3D graphics on FM are mere window dressing, and while I wouldn't be against it in principle I'd just prefer SI to FIRST perfect the bits that do not work the way they should (confidence, newgens), and improve the bits that do work (press comments, 4-2-4 realism, etc).

Once the actual gameplay has reached the level SI are clearly aiming for, THEN seriously look into 3D.

3D engine would obviously be done by someone else and not someone from SIs current team. Its a different skillset which means everyone else would keep on adding new features(hopefully more efficiently and with less bugs than what they are doing lately). There is no reason why it wouldnt work on your machine if it can display a shockwave 3d engine then it most surely can run a proper hardware accelerated 3d engine that is many many many times faster than one written in shockwave. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Not that it really matters, but the Shockwave 3D engine is fully hardware accelerated (using DirectX 9 in the latest version of the Shockwave plugin).

Originally posted by wwfan:

As long as we had the 'soccerdots' as the default view, it could be very cool in terms of watching key moments in replays/post match.

Exactly what I thought

I'm with these

Originally posted by Nene_Park_Faithfull:

The current 2d engine isnt 100%

Untill it is, keep it.

I agree. And whats up with all transistor based technology. Tubes still arent at 100%.

We should also get back to coal because coal based engines still arent at 100%.

Should i continue or do you now see how ridiculous your argument is?

Originally posted by jakobx:

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Nene_Park_Faithfull:

The current 2d engine isnt 100%

Untill it is, keep it.

I agree. And whats up with all transistor based technology. Tubes still arent at 100%.

We should also get back to coal because coal based engines still arent at 100%.

Should i continue or do you now see how ridiculous your argument is? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

The GRAPHICS are not THE ENGINE.

Graphics and commentary are a representation of the ME, and often fail to match up even now. If the ME is calculating that your winger is bombing toward the AI team's goal line, chasing a loose ball, gets to it first, then slices the cross, BUT the 2D dots and commentary imply that your player "cleared" the ball, that suggests to me that the match engine and graphical representation doesn't quite match up. Not the only example but the most frequent one in my experience.

Imagine how many faults there would be with graphics as detailed at the BBC shockwave. With modern computers' limited memory capacity, can you imagine how repetitive the same arrangements would be? How jittery for people with less than 4gig RAM? I got bored with Pro Evo for that very reason. Played Fifa for an hour and the same thing. Played Champ Manager and nearly wet myself laughing at their attempt at 3D (ice skating Cluedo figures for those who haven't seen it in action) and it adds nothing.

I think SI should go the whole hog or nothing at all. Get it right. Get it superb. Get it to a point where their rivals can't touch it. THEN release it.

3D are, IMO, inevitable. Just not yet.

Wasn't impressed, to be honest. I'm sure I played an old Premier Manager/Fifa hybrid that looked and moved like that.

The movement/engine on the current FM works better, in my opinion. If they can work on tweaking the animation of that or the players, then I am happy.

But "If it aint broke..."

Originally posted by JohnShaft:

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Jbaker:

I might be wrong here as I am not a programmer or web designer, but the bbc represenataton is not an engine that has produced this, but merely a movie created using shockwave to display graphical frames that someone has spent time creating which are then simply played out in an ordered sequence like a movie.

FM would require the same thing to be done on the fly, meaning it can't be pre-programmed in to display that kind of view, otherwise we would be limited in the manner to which a goal can be scored as it would need someone at SI to create the movies from what they know and they might not be able to create more than maybe a couple of dozen different types of goal which they would then have to do for every possible team that might be playing. I am sure it would take a lot more work to generate that some people might think.

That sounds like complete rubbish to me.

The graphical representation needs to do nothing more than to represent where the dots ALREADY ARE IN THE AI, and WHAT THEY ARE ALREADY DOING. *Just like it's doing now*. It's got nothing to do with having movies. Let's not get hung up on that because this game was on TV. Just represent where the dots are, and what they are doing. Jumping/Tackling/Shooting. It's really not rocket science in 2008, and I defy ANYONE who has any programming knowledge to tell me otherwise (that precludes all you who think Pong would be impossible). Have you people even seen what was being done graphically FIFTEEN YEARS ago, let alone now?

TWO people wrote Elite 25+ years ago. With this attitude they would have deemed it beyond impossible and never done it.

--------------

Now if you told me the current AI on what's happening on the pitch is far too lacking, and it would show itself up if shown in 3D, well then we've got an entirely different argument. And I'd be much less inclined to disagree.

But lets not dredge up more "it can't be done" arguments, the "would take up too many resources" ones are bad (and thin) enough. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

so tell me. if it only needs to represent what the dots are doing at the moment...what is the dot doing when a player jumps for the ball? how does that translate to this 3d thingy?

what about when a dot sliding tackles another dot? falls over? stumbles? goes for a flying header?