The games lost it's sharpness

Yes I know theres a lot of negativity about the demo, but its because people are dissapointed that there isn't a great manager game this year.

I won't dwell on 3d but apart from the obvious, the match speed sliders have gone which is annoying. The whole match day is slow and stuttery. The widgets either get in the way or you have to flick backwards and forwards to see them.

The whole match day is badly constructed, really,

Its just FM used to be such a steady game. This one does seem, I dunno, tacky?

People will disagree but seriously, the match day, its lost something.

Add this to the fact that certain little details that were fine as they were have been taken away plus the failiure to add to core features.

No new tactics (apart from the arrows) or tactical interface, despite how many people have commented on it not being so clear.

Other things, team talks, the same. Player/manager interaction, the same. Training, the same. Transfer negotiations, the same. And so on.

The small info bits that have been added are nice. Press conferances and player preferred moves are nice. Thats it. Thats pretty much all that has been added. For the first time the game seems a bit boring.

Think about what you do between matches. Tweak tactics, adjust training, negotiate transfers, interact with players. This is the core of the game and nothing???

SI have said themselves about moving with the times with 3d. Move with the times with the rest.

I actually agree somewhat with you. There was a certain quality about the game before - The 3D match engine, as you said, just doesn't feel like football manager. It feels like it belongs in the first post SI champ manager or something...

I remember the same discussion when SI did implement the 2-D match engine.

Who does still view the matches in text only? The same will happen with 2-D.

The match speed slider is still there - it's on the left hand side when you're playing a match.

The whole match day is badly constructed, really,

Its just FM used to be such a steady game. This one does seem, I dunno, tacky?

People will disagree but seriously, the match day, its lost something.

Add this to the fact that certain little details that were fine as they were have been taken away plus the failiure to add to core features.

No new tactics (apart from the arrows) or tactical interface, despite how many people have commented on it not being so clear.

Other things, team talks, the same. Player/manager interaction, the same. Training, the same. Transfer negotiations, the same. And so on.

The small info bits that have been added are nice. Press conferances and player preferred moves are nice. Thats it. Thats pretty much all that has been added. For the first time the game seems a bit boring.

Think about what you do between matches. Tweak tactics, adjust training, negotiate transfers, interact with players. This is the core of the game and nothing???

I disagree.... The match day is pretty much as it was in 08, I don't notice anything missing. There are some nice options and certainly the engine is improved (although not drastically from the outside).

The change in the arrows is a large tactic change, and I now find it easier to understand why my tactics haven't worked in previous games. Also the addition of Ass Man feedback has meant paying attention to that and ensuring it matches what I want the team to do, which is a change in dynamic.

Team talks, certainly the same from the outside but certainly seem to have a better effect in the engine. I could almost guarantee a lose if I said "Don't lose it...." or somesuch before. I'd say the same with Player/Manager and Training. They have the same basic inputs, but are they the same in the effect and output? Doesn't seem so (training is harder to ascertain at this point!).

As for the Transfer engine, it's changed the way I now look at transfers. The Ass Man offering options saves me a search and I've used that quite a lot and less of the searches. Scouting is seems better than in 08 and I feel I can rely on decent scouts now. Plus other small changes, including looking at Transfer rumours for who I'm linked with and maybe checking them out. All means I can get to the sort of player I need easier.

So yes the basics of the game are the same as they ever have been, but 09 is certainly the next step along the route to the perfect version, and no it's not there yet (nor will it ever be!)

For me the 3D engine graphics are way out of date...No one was expecting FIFA but these are really bad. People might say it is not important but it diminishes the "polished" feel of the previous games...

The match speed slider is still there - it's on the left hand side when you're playing a match.

I mean the fact that they have now been combined. Small point, but an example of the thinking for this game. What was the problem? The way before was completely logical and more user friendly. Perhaps it was changed to tick another 'change' for the game off the list.

I mean the fact that they have now been combined. Small point, but an example of the thinking for this game. What was the problem? The way before was completely logical and more user friendly. Perhaps it was changed to tick another 'change' for the game off the list.

In 08, I played with the match speed set slightly faster (2 notches) than the highlight speed. Plus extended highlights.

In the 09 demo, I've kept it all at the default speed. I don't notice that its any slower, it may be because I enjoy the 3d more. But certainly it's had less impact than I expected when I read about it.

I disagree. The game used to be simple and you could rush through seasons in no time at all. Now it has more depth and you can become more involved and feel like you actually earn trophies, rather than making one killer tactic and keeping it indefinitely

The 3D isn't about graphics either, and it's a shame so many people can't see past graphics and enjoy the extra dimension it offers

Basically I don't see how you can complain. The core game is still there, it's always been there each year, but new features have been added that's all

If you want a true football management simulation then FM is the closest we have, and it's much more realistic than what CM used to be, where all you did was watch commentary and get excited when a box flashed

Maybe that's the problem, this younger generation can't be bothered thinking much therefore can't enjoy the challenge of FM?

I remember the same discussion when SI did implement the 2-D match engine.

Who does still view the matches in text only? The same will happen with 2-D.

I never played the game when it was text only, for that reason. I can't understand the concerns when 2d was introduced. Simply because its 2d not 3d. The things are completely different. Its not a case of not adapting to the new way, its because people are aware of how difficult 3d is. Also it has NOTHING to do with them being the same code. I know this. Its the fact that watching 3d is completely different, same code or not. Why? Because it means that the game has to look amazing and run perfectly. Thats 3d, thats the way it is.

I remember the uproar when 2D was introduce. It was a huge step at the time and you get people saying "I'll never use it" and "text all the way". Now it's the same story for 3D. It's not pretty because they don't have the experience or resources at the moment to make it pretty. They've worked on the idea for 3 years or so but it's only in the last year when they started coding it and they got new programmers who had more experience in doing it. For a first attempt it's good enough and it'll just get better with each new version.

There is no law that says 3D graphics have to look good. For this type of game, functional is fine. And I find it more than functional.

I disagree. The game used to be simple and you could rush through seasons in no time at all. Now it has more depth and you can become more involved and feel like you actually earn trophies, rather than making one killer tactic and keeping it indefinitely

The 3D isn't about graphics either, and it's a shame so many people can't see past graphics and enjoy the extra dimension it offers

Basically I don't see how you can complain. The core game is still there, it's always been there each year, but new features have been added that's all

If you want a true football management simulation then FM is the closest we have, and it's much more realistic than what CM used to be, where all you did was watch commentary and get excited when a box flashed

Maybe that's the problem, this younger generation can't be bothered thinking much therefore can't enjoy the challenge of FM?

Listen, I'm in favour of improving the look of the match engine. I tried to encourage a graphicly improved 2d prior to th release of Fm 09. I want to get more feedback from the match, like you said. The 3d is shoddy. And unsurprisingly so. It is the same code as 2d but you really wouldnt think so, considering how much the 3d shows up the ME.

Also, my argument isn't make the game easy, Its add too and evolve the tactics, training and interaction. Its been the same for years!!!!!!!!

Match Speed Slider(s) - I dont think it was changed for another tick on 'game features' (and I'm sure you dont think this either, really) but changed, if someone (Ter I think?) is to be believed, due to feedback from focus testing which came back with 'two sliders are confusing' or info to that effect.

Thing is, you need to make a call on feedback. Personally I think it was the wrong decision to change it, and one I hope is rectified, because when you start making the game for other people and not yourself, you start to forget what you're trying to do. Reading feedback and ideas from people and picking out the 'cool stuff' you like the sound of is not making the game for other people and should not be confused as such.

I agree with the original poster. I am currently tormenting myself with the idea of either starting a new (updated) 07 game which will be safe and known, or waiting for 09 to launch and taking the day one patch. Thing is, I dont believe that day one patch will fix enough of the things that are currently making me fear for the early days of 09. It can certainly become the very best game of the series, SI have the talent to make it so, but only if they review some of the decisions that have been made with 09. I'm not expecting amazing graphics, just for it to be in a better state. I feel SI arent too hot when it comes to quality control, but thats one minor point when you realise they excel in making the best footie management game on offer. I just cant help wonder what it would be like if they fixed that negative... I'd probably not have a life outside of FM

Some people think its fine, and they are neither right nor wrong. I think it (whole Match Engine) should have a great deal more polish, thats just my opinion. I wouldnt be happy with it going out as is, but I'm a bit of a git with such things. When you start to provide greater levels of match representation, you're taking away the ability for people to imagine the game for themselves. Lots of people moaned about the 2D match engine, for they could see what was happening for the first time. The match engine improved a hell of a lot over time, I think it great in 07. Now its shown in 3D (if you can view it) there is less to imagine, so when you spot players running on the spot of sliding about without their legs moving, it simply spoils the fantasy. Victims of their desire to move forward... such is the challenge of game development.

When the 3D Match Engine is improved, it will be, quite simply, fantastic. It was the right move to make, it has to happen at some point.

Currently the Match Engine (3D) doesnt, for me, look very good at all. Dated, too many mistakes within the representation of play, some silly things happening, clunky and slow loading... I do not mind using 2D classic, but its not as good as the version from 07, and that means purchasing and playing a game that has taken some steps forward and a few back, which to me is a little bit... weird...

I'm sure I'll move over to 09 after two or three patches, but I want to play it sooner rather than later so I'm keeping an eye on this forum I think many of the game features and alterations can be tweaked to improve the title quite noticeably.

SmurfDude - Sent you a PM

Its the fact that watching 3d is completely different, same code or not. Why? Because it means that the game has to look amazing and run perfectly. Thats 3d, thats the way it is.

Here is the problem, no it doesn't. That is expectation feeding what you are looking for. It's not an unreasonable expectation, and I doubt anyone would be against it being perfect. But because it's 3d doesn't mean it has to be perfect.

Tactically, and gamewise, I don't think I get anything more from watching 3d over 2d (other things in 09 give me a better tactical grasp of what is happening). However, I prefer the 3d view as it's more pleasing to watch. I still see the same errors I've been watching on 08 for the last year, some are more obvious now though. This though is another good thing, as they're more likely to get noticed, reported and fixed

I remember the uproar when 2D was introduce. It was a huge step at the time and you get people saying "I'll never use it" and "text all the way". Now it's the same story for 3D. It's not pretty because they don't have the experience or resources at the moment to make it pretty. They've worked on the idea for 3 years or so but it's only in the last year when they started coding it and they got new programmers who had more experience in doing it. For a first attempt it's good enough and it'll just get better with each new version.

There is no law that says 3D graphics have to look good. For this type of game, functional is fine. And I find it more than functional.

So a 'good enough' 3d is enough for an annual release comprimising the rest of a game.

Think how much effort went into 3d. Huge reward?

How has it compromised the rest of the game? There's plenty of new useful features put in as well as stuff they've got from the thousands of matches of FM Live beta which all just enhance the game. The 3D aspect for me is a nice new extra but it's not the sole reason I'm buying the game.

It annoys me that the game has gone from being a perfect background application that I can enjoy whilst doing many other things into a bloated and poorly optimized piece of software in the space of a single year. And all that because of a new major 'feature' that does not look very good and will be turned off for me anyway. Why not develop the 3D a bit longer and bring a polished version out for 2010 that actually looks the part? FM 2009 feels so... rushed. And I fully agree that there are several core features that need lots of work. A two year development cycle is what's really needed. Shame it's never going to happen though

That said, FM 2009 has good potential. If it's optimized better and the 2D is sorted out with the patch(es) it could be a very enjoyable experience.

Here is the problem, no it doesn't. That is expectation feeding what you are looking for. It's not an unreasonable expectation, and I doubt anyone would be against it being perfect. But because it's 3d doesn't mean it has to be perfect.

Tactically, and gamewise, I don't think I get anything more from watching 3d over 2d (other things in 09 give me a better tactical grasp of what is happening). However, I prefer the 3d view as it's more pleasing to watch. I still see the same errors I've been watching on 08 for the last year, some are more obvious now though. This though is another good thing, as they're more likely to get noticed, reported and fixed

Look, its not so much the bugs and specific little problems with 3d. I thought that, as long as its smooth and solid, it won't matter about the cosmetic graphics.

Its not about seeing the sponsers on the shirts or deatil on the players faces but the animations of player movement and techniques is a problem.

This, This does matter. This suddenly makes the match engine seem completely irrelevent and unbeleivable. Not only that it gives you the feeling that all the stuff that you have done prior to matchday seems pointless and fake. Seriously that matchday is not FM.

Watch it in 2d then, I hear you cry. What, the same 2d we've had for the last 3 years.....

How has it compromised the rest of the game? There's plenty of new useful features put in as well as stuff they've got from the thousands of matches of FM Live beta which all just enhance the game. The 3D aspect for me is a nice new extra but it's not the sole reason I'm buying the game.

Yes there are some nice features. But to be fair its fair to expect a few evolutionary features. Thats what we have got. That and 3d. I'm sorry but wheres the revolutionary stuff for the rest of the game?

It annoys me that the game has gone from being a perfect background application that I can enjoy whilst doing many other things into a bloated and poorly optimized piece of software in the space of a single year. And all that because of a new major 'feature' that does not look very good and will be turned off for me anyway. Why not develop the 3D a bit longer and bring a polished version out for 2010 that actually looks the part? FM 2009 feels so... rushed. And I fully agree that there are several core features that need lots of work. A two year development cycle is what's really needed. Shame it's never going to happen though

That said, FM 2009 has good potential. If it's optimized better and the 2D is sorted out with the patch(es) it could be a very enjoyable experience.

I think you are right. And thats not an ignorant rant at SI.

This game was always expected to have a bit of revolution about it, like it or not, its that sort of time these days for computer games. Forgetting the bloody ME wheres the bright new ideas?

I disagree. The game used to be simple and you could rush through seasons in no time at all. Now it has more depth and you can become more involved and feel like you actually earn trophies, rather than making one killer tactic and keeping it indefinitely

The 3D isn't about graphics either, and it's a shame so many people can't see past graphics and enjoy the extra dimension it offers

Basically I don't see how you can complain. The core game is still there, it's always been there each year, but new features have been added that's all

If you want a true football management simulation then FM is the closest we have, and it's much more realistic than what CM used to be, where all you did was watch commentary and get excited when a box flashed

Maybe that's the problem, this younger generation can't be bothered thinking much therefore can't enjoy the challenge of FM?

Agree 100%

Its funny that a lot of people before completely opposed 3d. Now they say stuff like,'Oh, it allows you to see so much more' and 'It gives much more feedback'. OBVIOUSLY!! A three dimentional view will give alot more and enhance feedback. What did you think it would do?

I say this, despite not liking the 3d we have this year, because it opitimises the views people have about other parts of the game being good enough. Just like an improved 2d would be very very good and more achievable than 3d, as would improving/changing tactics training and interaction. But people dismiss this.

I disagree. The game used to be simple and you could rush through seasons in no time at all. Now it has more depth and you can become more involved and feel like you actually earn trophies, rather than making one killer tactic and keeping it indefinitely

The 3D isn't about graphics either, and it's a shame so many people can't see past graphics and enjoy the extra dimension it offers

Basically I don't see how you can complain. The core game is still there, it's always been there each year, but new features have been added that's all

If you want a true football management simulation then FM is the closest we have, and it's much more realistic than what CM used to be, where all you did was watch commentary and get excited when a box flashed

Maybe that's the problem, this younger generation can't be bothered thinking much therefore can't enjoy the challenge of FM?

Couldn't have said it better, and although I likely underused FM08, the 3D has me captivated. It doesn't need fans, or advertising hoardings, or any of the gloss, because ultimately I'm watching my players like never before.

The depth has improved nicely and I think the console generation are too dependent on quick fix.

Couldn't have said it better, and although I likely underused FM08, the 3D has me captivated. It doesn't need fans, or advertising hoardings, or any of the gloss, because ultimately I'm watching my players like never before.

The depth has improved nicely and I think the console generation are too dependent on quick fix.

You're not listening to the point of this thread. No ones asking for flash cosmetics graphics.

3d is pretty much impossible. It completely contadicts Football Manager the game. The technology is obviously still not there.

Lots and lots can still be done with 2d, or an overhead camera, full pitch view of figures playing football. This could be improved hugely and look fantastic and give everything we need. But its not '3d' thus not provoking a lot of interest, enthusiasm or thought. Its ignorant and cowardly to dismiss this.

This is my main argument. Yes a graphical representation of the game is essential. Man, games like Fifa are still perfecting realistic movement, tempo and ball physics. Where does that leave a mangement game??

You're not listening to the point of this thread. No ones asking for flash cosmetics graphics.

3d is pretty much impossible. It completely contadicts Football Manager the game. The technology is obviously still not there.

Lots and lots can still be done with 2d, or an overhead camera, full pitch view of figures playing football. This could be improved hugely and look fantastic and give everything we need. But its not '3d' thus not provoking a lot of interest, enthusiasm or thought. Its ignorant and cowardly to dismiss this.

This is my main argument. Yes a graphical representation of the game is essential. Man, games like Fifa are still perfecting realistic movement, tempo and ball physics. Where does that leave a mangement game??

I'm sorry, but in this thread your coming across as a little kid craving attention.

Every time somebody gives their opinion, perhaps not even directly against yours, you pop up again to reiterate what you've already said a thousand times.

You need to accept, some people like it, some don't, you obviously fall in the don't category.

Yes I know theres a lot of negativity about the demo, but its because people are dissapointed that there isn't a great manager game this year.

I won't dwell on 3d but apart from the obvious, the match speed sliders have gone which is annoying. The whole match day is slow and stuttery. The widgets either get in the way or you have to flick backwards and forwards to see them.

The whole match day is badly constructed, really,

Its just FM used to be such a steady game. This one does seem, I dunno, tacky?

People will disagree but seriously, the match day, its lost something.

Add this to the fact that certain little details that were fine as they were have been taken away plus the failiure to add to core features.

No new tactics (apart from the arrows) or tactical interface, despite how many people have commented on it not being so clear.

Other things, team talks, the same. Player/manager interaction, the same. Training, the same. Transfer negotiations, the same. And so on.

The small info bits that have been added are nice. Press conferances and player preferred moves are nice. Thats it. Thats pretty much all that has been added. For the first time the game seems a bit boring.

Think about what you do between matches. Tweak tactics, adjust training, negotiate transfers, interact with players. This is the core of the game and nothing???

SI have said themselves about moving with the times with 3d. Move with the times with the rest.

there is not much that they could change in the game it is like a football team it has a backbone with other players built around it.that is what the game is like it has a back bone of key feutures like the serch bar for players or the firstteam squad lay out things like that are the back bone and we bits get added round about it.so i think the game is good with some new things added.

I'm sorry, but in this thread your coming across as a little kid craving attention.

Every time somebody gives their opinion, perhaps not even directly against yours, you pop up again to reiterate what you've already said a thousand times.

You need to accept, some people like it, some don't, you obviously fall in the don't category.

Yes people do have different opinions. I'm not craving attention I'm trying to argue my opinion against others. What else can you do. Sure you respect other peoples opinions as long as they understand yours. You have to believe and be confident in what you say.

Also, everyone is saying things like 'The game is just the same as last year, but with 3d' and then going onto say 'the game is awful now because of 3d' etc.

If you enjoyed last years game, which i pressume the majority of you did, as you are only just stating it has been ruined by 3d, then you are contradicting yourself.

if the game is just the same as last year, then surely the game is still good? Especially as you can turn 3D off.

Yes people do have different opinions. I'm not craving attention I'm trying to argue my opinion against others. What else can you do. Sure you respect other peoples opinions as long as they understand yours. You have to believe and be confident in what you say.

Yes you do, but i've been in at least 4 different threads now, just on the opening page, where you are posting the same thing pretty much. One thread is enough surely.

Like i say, the second somebody disagrees with you, or has a different opinion, you seem to spit your dummy out and then go looking for someone who also hates the 3D to back you up.

Also, everyone is saying things like 'The game is just the same as last year, but with 3d' and then going onto say 'the game is awful now because of 3d' etc.

If you enjoyed last years game, which i pressume the majority of you stating its been ruined by 3D did, then you are contradicting yourself.

if the game is just the same as last year, then surely the game is still good? Especially as you can turn 3D off.

Its not last year. Assuming that someone does not like 3d and the game is the same as last year, you are left with last years game. Great. Thats exciting for a NEW game.

The other point is 3d is a big statement from SI. It says a lot about the priorities and thinking behind the game.

The other point is 3d is a big statement from SI. It says a lot about the priorities and thinking behind the game.

It says that they want to improve the game and make it more interesting. Watching a match in 3-D is better than 2-D or text. And more realistic. A Manager have to watch the game to see how the players do their job.

Yes you do, but i've been in at least 4 different threads now, just on the opening page, where you are posting the same thing pretty much. One thread is enough surely.

Like i say, the second somebody disagrees with you, or has a different opinion, you seem to spit your dummy out and then go looking for someone who also hates the 3D to back you up.

I'm not gonna get into this. Its probably not worth it but I actually post threads like this to try make a change and to suggest ideas. That would explain supporting someone who agrees with th opening post. Theres only a few points I personally want to get across so I stick to it. ther is so many threads on here about basically the same thing that last a day or two.. Whats the point?

Anyway it seems you're on here to shake up this whole thread so you can't complain.

Its not last year. Assuming that someone does not like 3d and the game is the same as last year, you are left with last years game. Great. Thats exciting for a NEW game.

The other point is 3d is a big statement from SI. It says a lot about the priorities and thinking behind the game.

I understand your point for saying it's not great for a new game, as it will have stood still, however i was merely making the point that if it is the same as last years game then it doesn't make it a BAD game, which is what many people are trying to suggest it is.

I personally, having played FM/CM since 00/01 season, don't see TOO many avenues as to where they could go down to make the game a great deal better. More realistic media involvement was needed, so they brought in press conferences, a feature which will undoubtedly get better. More Ass Man interaction was needed, we've got it. The match engine needed to be improved, it has been, the core engine itself, if you watch on 2D is a lot better than last years. At some point they did need to bring in 3D but i think we all know that SI don't pride itself on cosmetic value like other football games do, we wouldn't have had text commentary as the only view for years otherwise.

I personally think the game, once again, as i have thought every single year since i started playing the game, has improved.

Perhaps not the revolutionary jump forward many were expecting, but it has still improved.

I'm not gonna get into this. Its probably not worth it but I actually post threads like this to try make a change and to suggest ideas. That would explain supporting someone who agrees with th opening post. Theres only a few points I personally want to get across so I stick to it. ther is so many threads on here about basically the same thing that last a day or two.. Whats the point?

Anyway it seems you're on here to shake up this whole thread so you can't complain.

Thats not the case at all, i'm on here to read through both the positives and the negatives and to just see what other people think to how the game is looking at the moment. However it is annoying to find every single thread is pretty much the same things, over and over again. I read much more than i post.