Creating Effective Tactics - One possible approach

*Disclaimer*

This is my approach to the game and in no way a definitive way to play, but I hope it helps those who are trying to figure things out.

Football Manager has changed significantly over the years, and some tactical approaches that we used to take in the past now have little or no relevance to the game. In CM 03/04, we used to be very aware of obvious glitches in the engine, they would be so apparent that it wouldn't be difficult to create a tactic that would take advantage. One notable one was the inability of the AI to handle the player running in from deep, or the use of sarrows on strikers. Looking for similar flaws now is harder simply because of the introduction of the sliders. The sliders now have a more profound effect on the game.

However having said that Noel Gallagher was right to point out that the Defensive Line slider has little or no impact on the game, its painfully obvious that a setting of 1 or 20 does nothing to where the backline takes its position, with/without ball. I agree with him though I was quick to point out that at times it does appear that fullbacks do take a more attacking role when the slider is pushed up somewhat, however, this is neither significant or a common occurrence, and hence we should accept the fact that the sliders need to be changed.

Taking all this into consideration, how do we go about creating a tactic that is either consistent or effective. There are various factors to consider, some of them are obvious some may not. For those of us who want to be the "one tactic rules all" guys, it is possible, but the key lies in our approach to the game.

As I go along, I will try to explain how in interpret some of the concepts in the game, what are some of the critical factors we need to consider, how we choose players, and how to set up a team,defensively and offensively.

One possible approach

Your starting team

Can Weymouth successfully use Chelsea's tactic? No. Can Chelsea successfully use Weymouths tactic. Yes.

Weak Teams

Before we start any game, its important to understand the team and our approach has to take into account the players in our team. A struggling side like Reading cannot employ a 343 attacking tactic without making some fundamental changes to its side. But it can successfully use an attacking 4132 formation.

Sides labelled underdogs in this game need to have at least 5 players in a defensive setup, this should include fullbacks,central defenders and a DMC. These kind of clubs lack the qualities in the side that will allow them to use more exotic formations that are attacking in orientation, and this includes 433 formations to some extent. The better you are as a tactician, the more you can afford to risk the more exotic formations. But, if you intend to begin this game trying to understand the engine, then the best formation for a struggling side is either a 442 or a 4132. What about the 442 Diamond?

Average Sides

Sides like M'boro are considered average sides, they are expected to finish as a midtable side. When using these kind of sides you can use more attacking formations such as the 442 Diamond or the 433. These kind of sides have more players in their side who are reasonably adept. Boro, only lack pace at the back, the inclusion of one DC with pace and anticipation should be enough to strengthen the side.

Good Sides

Sides like Liverpool, Chelsea, Arsenal and United are so good, you're tempted to start with exotic formations such as the 343, and in some cases they work and in others they fail miserably. These teams can use any tactic; the reason why so many struggle is because many teams will lock themselves up and prevent you from scoring against them, resorting to defensive counterattacking tactics. Hence its important to know how to handle them. How you create a tactic now becomes important.

Creating a Successful Tactic

Where do you begin?

I played through the demo using Weymouth, Arsenal, Newcastle, Reading, Liverpool, QPR and Wolves. Now thats a lot of different teams. My first time out I decided to create attacking formations cos I love formations that switch flanks and just rip teams apart. So I started off with a 343 tactic. I was able to use it by Liverpool to devastating effect in the ECL but teams like Weymouth were struggling in their league. They would score loads but also concede loads of goals.It became apparent to me, a logical approach would be needed.

The first thing you need to do is to take a quick look around your league. Find the best teams are then look at their stats.

The stats you need to look at are: Pace, Passing, Teamwork,Jumping. Why?

Paceis easily the most important attribute in the game, along with Off the ball, they define the kind of football you can play. If your side has pace in it then you have the potential of creating tactics that can score off a break and for poor sides, these can make the difference between 3 points or 0. Defenders need pace, so do attackers. Pace gets you to the ball faster and manages to help you on breaks. If you find that the best sides in the league have great pace, then you have to make several decisions.

Passing If you want to keep possession of a ball, and if you want to score off a break then this is crucial. If you're in a league where the average passing rate is 10, and you only have 1 player in your side with 10, then you're faced with a challenge. If your defenders have poor passing, then keeping possession is critical

The premiership is has some sides which have very good passing, and you could end up playing differently against them as opposed to sides who are newlys promoted for instance. Lets take Chelsea for instance, if I were using Liverpool, I would employ high pressing and deny that side time on the ball to pass, I would deploy wide strikers who would run at the defence or stretch their defence and my set pieces would be about keeping possession. Against a defensive side I could take the approach if playing wide, and play without high pressing, cause its important to get them to move up the pitch. More on this later when I talk about setting a team up. Its important to realise where your team sits in the greater scheme so that you can employ the right style.

Teamwork I don't expect there to be too many teams with high teamwork across the board, but having good teamwork is critical for an average or poor side. If teamwork is poor in a side, you will see defenders ripped out of position, and you will see strikers trying impossible things when they is a better play open. I break my team up into 2 halves, the attacking and defending half and treat the DM as part of the defending half. I then take the average number for the defensive side and then compare it to the best side in the land. My goal is to make sure that my team is at least par or better. If its just below then I know i will need to incorporate this into my overall strategy. I do this by targetted training to raise teamwork.

Jumping Why this attribute of all? one word interceptions. my mids and defenders may have good anticipation, but without jumping its useless. I want to win the 50-50s. Once you win the 50-50s you have the edge. The right closing down instructions can take care of the rest. Jumping is important because crossing and wingplay are more effective in this version. Even set-pieces need this attribute. If you have good jumping across the pitch, your options are varied and you have can have situations where you only have 3 shots on goal against a team with 3 times that amount. But you've won the battle of set-pieces.

Once you've considered all these key ingriedents its time to mix em up with the rest.

My side has no pace what do i do, the right players don't want to come to me. This is where the rest of the game comes into play.

Setting up a tactic

Lets begin with the shape. Lets start with the easiest sides. Good sides have great pace, jumping and passing. Therefore its easy to say you can do anything. You can employ direct passing in your tactic with a 442 Diamond or you can have a safe 4132 with short passing and medium tempo. Both can work. the difference lies in closing down.

What does closing down mean? Closing down simply means that when the AI is in possession of the ball, its how soon you begin to reduce the time and space the AI has on the ball. If you play with high closing down, it means that you want to deny it space, and you are willing to take risks with your formation. If you play with low closing down you are confident in your sides ability to deny the oppositon passing opportunities and you are able to use your passing skills to create chances. How you use closing down makes the difference between playing good sides and poor sides.

Rarely, OWn Half, Always[i/] What do these settings mean? Does always mean he is closing down all over the pitch. But wait isn't there an option in the game that sets players on zonal marking?The effect of zonal marking must not be ignored. A player will mark another player if he enters your zone, so whether you use 1 or 20 a player will close another down, it's just where. If a DC is set on 0, does it mean he will not close down in his own box? No he will, but if he is on 0, his reaction will be different in different situations. If your side is attacking and the offense punts a ball in your half and there are 3 players there with one sweeper on 1. his reaciton will be the same whether he is on 1 or 20. He will still go for the ball because he is on zonal marking. The ball has entered his zone. If a player is on low closing down, and the ball enters his zone, he will make an attempt to get the ball. If an AI player enters his half but is not in his zone. He will not make a challenge. He will hold his position and deny him a passing shot. If a player is set on always closing down, and when a player enters his zone he will move up to deny him the passing chance. Its like when we played footy, you'd be warned by the coach, don't tackle I just want you to make sure he can't cross the ball. The higher your closing down the closer he gets. Now if your closing down is too high, then you could find yourself caught out.

How do you play a high pressing game?

In order to play a high pressing game you need to close down heavily. You need to deny another team the chance to make the pass, and make sure you can knick off a ball. In order to do this, your side needs to have great pace and off the ball and stamina. If it has neither of these 3 attributes forget it. The chances of your side being pulled apart are very high.

You can choose 1 or two options.

GO Global

Choose own half as a global setting and leave it at that. This will mean different things for the 2 halves of your team. When you set close down in own half for your strikers it means that they will close down in "THEIR HALF". Their half of the pitch is the attacking half. When the ball leaves their half it enters the defensive half. How high or low you want to go depends on how much you use the slider. This is a relatively good setting as long as you remember not to choose the 2 extremes. Choosing not to close down and choosing to press to heavily are both bad ideas.

Individual Settings

Another way to do this is to divide your team into 3 components, defense, midfield and offense. You can even create 4 to 5 layers depending on your shape. For now lets assume its a 4132. Lets assume too that you have a mediocre side like Reading. This newly promoted side have little or pace. The first thing I'd do is go find at least one or two or maybe 5 players who have pace and passing and drop em in the side. Having done that I proceed to setting up the closing down instructions. I'll divide the team into 3 ha

lves. Whatever it is, this poor side cannot afford to let other sides have too much time on the ball, they are too good. But if Reading are to take the route of global settings that may not work too well cause I'd have to keep tweaking it. So I'd start with my offense.

Now lets look at the whole team. I could do 2 things. Close down low at the back and low in front and really press hard in the centre. That would deny the side a lot of chances but there is a risk, if the team is really good, it will be able to pump good balls into my box and that would mean that my defense could get overworked.

Another choice, I will close down in own half upfront, close down medium for the mids but not too high and slightly higher for the fullbacks lower for the DCs. This means several things. One the goal is to make my strikers start defending first, they should harry the defense, 2 things could happen, one they punt the ball up. Chances are it goes to the flanks, which is what I want or b they lose possession as they dawdle.

If they manage to pass the ball to the midfield, I want them to still attempt the through pass, this will not happen if all my mids close down too early especially the wingers, if they do then a short pass will find a free player. So my mids on set on CD of around 10-12, I'd sometimes go lower but this is the best. He will come close but not too close. This will force the AI to play a through ball, if it goes to the flanks, I win.

The fullbacks have to be on high closing down preferably between 12-15. Because if the ball gets to their side of the pitch you want to make sure that the cross does not come in. Setting up medium closing down for the mids means that as the ball reaches the fullback, the mids will follow and then pullback as the ball reaches the fullbacks zone. This is ideal if your fullback wins the ball and the challenge you have an outlet to attack from. I personally prefer this apporach as I like to make changes based on my style of play. If I find that the AI is having free reigh on the flanks I just stick in a player who has better awareness and anticipation. The fact that my wingers can release the attack also means I can always change things around by playing defensive or offensive players in that position.

The offense needs to close down in their half and they need to do this well enough. But I need them to be an effective outlet to alleviate pressure. So high closing down is not an option. But closing down anywhere between 12-15 is a good move. Thats the setting they'll be on.

The difference betweeen a good side and a poor side, is how much they can get away with high pressing, A good side should have enough players to make up for players caught out as they close down early, but this means increased pressure. When using Liverpool, I used this approach when playing Chelsea at the Bridge. I decided to go for a high closing down game playing a 343 formation. I knew that my backline will be exposed. But i also considered the fact that Chelsea would not get too much time on the ball, their only route was direct football. It was a risk I was prepared to take. Playing a high closing down formation across the pitch led to some attractive football, but not for the faint-hearted. Another approach I could have taken was setting individual settings. Both times I won the match, in one case, we were outshot (Global) in another we dominated possession and the shot count was fairly even, but it was a brutal battle with 5 yellow cards and 2 players sent off from both sides. The choices you make are dependant on the style you're comfortable with and the players you have.

Mentality, Width, Tackling and the rest of the stuff

Why do i treat the rest of the stuff so flippantly? Fundamentally the game is a simple one. The result of the game is determined by the attributes on the pitch and they way you play. Playing safe leads to really even games, taking risks has its rewards and associated pitfalls.

Mentality[i/]does influence how far up a pitch your player moves so does Farrows. The difference lies in its mentality. If you farrow a midfielder and give em defensive settings, it really makes no sense. But if you farrow a midfielder to AM and then you give him 20 for mentality, he will be as good as a forward, the only difference will be in his wastage of possession, chances are, he will spend most of the time doing offensive stuff like moving the ball up and taking shots. Set up mentality for strikers within this range 12-15. They will take their chances well. You can also make your strikers work more effectively. More on that in how you set up your offense.

Tempo[i/]helps attacking teams control the way the ball is moved around the pitch. High tempo works well with Direct Passing, but not with short passing. Having high tempo with direct passing means that you need good players with passing skills and you need good forwards with Off the Ball(OTB). If the forwards have OTB they will run into space sooner and this means direct passing in critical areas of the pitch will release the ball faster.

Width[i/]This is where things get interesting. Width is a double edged sword. Too much and it comes through the centre, too little and you hardly have good width, so what do you do. There are workarouonds. One is to set your strikers on cross ball, this means those players will still go wide, whether you have a narrow or wide pitch. Nice trick to have and it works well. But if you want your fullbacks to overlap then you can't be on narrow, you need to be at least on normal. I usually set it on normal for all kinds of teams, when faced with a numerical advantage in terms of players, I usually increase width, have attacks down both flanks and stretch the defense.

Tackling[i/]Easy tackling does mean that you get yellow cards, but it does not mean you never see red. Easy tackling is not advisable not in this edition. If you are playing with staggered closing down I suggest having your players on normal and sticking your strikers on easy. You do want the right players in the pitch winning the ball, but you do not want them to get overly aggressive, so don't have it on hard, unless you are fairly certain your player won't lose his composure. To find out check his aggression and his OTB. If he has low OTB, he will lose out on tackling, having him on normal means that he will not take undue risks. If his aggression is high, I guarantee you will be faced with more than a few red cards.

Having taken all of this in consideration...How do you set up your defense? Now that you can choose which kind of closing down instructions you have lets start with a couple of options.

Diamond 4

<pre class="ip-ubbcode-code-pre">

DMC

---- DC DC-------

SW

</pre>

It looks wierd but this is far better than having a flat 3 at the back. If you set up a flat 3 the DC in the centre will disappear more often than not, and in real life a 3 man backline always plays the DCs as stoppers and has a sweeper at the back. So if you set this up, you need to make sure that the mentality of the 3 defenders is the same. This is important as it sets them to defend as a unit, the closing down instructions are very different. You want to set CD at 1-4 for the SW and up to 12 for the DCs. When using this exotic formation, you need to be prepared for direct attacks on your flanks. If you have an average squad you will face threats so your midfield can be set up like as a flat 4 or in any other configuration but you NEED to win the flanks, if you close down heavily you could lose the plot, so you need to make sure your strikers do all the work. How you set up the DMC in this formation depends on what your midfield is doing. If its closing down heavily I suggest putting his mentality on the same as the lowest placed midfielder and his closing down on low to 10. If your midfield is sitting back then have him on high closing down, both have associated risks. The risk of having him close down heavily is that your centre will always be vulnerable. In this case its advisable to have an MC in front of him on low closing down so the DMC has less work to do. But if both of them are on heavy closing down then you will lose the midfield battle.

The Universal Back Five

In any kind of formation, you want to have at least 5 players defending and 5 attacking, which is why these kind of formations are easier to manage. I suggest that this is a good formation to start with whether you're a novice at the game or experienced. There is also a way to play with 6 men defending and 6 men attacking, its by using a 343 formation, but its a heck of a lot tougher and it can only be done with really good sides.

When you are playing with a back five you will have 2 FBs 2 DCs and one DMC. This is so easy to set up. Have your fullbacks on closing down of at least 10-15, your DCs can be staggered, one on 10 and another on 1 or you could have them both on 5. The DMC can be on 20 or 10, and it depends on the rest of the midfield. Once again this is MY STYLE OF PLAY. once you set up the back 5 start looking at the midfield. You can have them close down on own half of around 10, and you can have the strikers on close down on half too. In this kind of a set up the whole team can be set up on closing down of 12 except for the 2 DCs and it could still work. Defensively you should have no problems.

Getting Goals

How do you set it up? You can go for a big man/small man or a fast/fast combo. Both play well and there is enough out there in the forums on how to set this up so I won't go into it. What I will include is how to make them more effective. If you want to get more goals from your midield and if you have an AMC and you want goals to come in then have your strikers on cross ball often. What this does is to release the players to the flanks and brings the midfield in. I find that this is more effective than sarrows. What about the 3 man strikeforce?

<pre class="ip-ubbcode-code-pre">

<------FL FC FR-------->

</pre>

I tried this and its not effective. Why? There is always a man on your FL and FR. Its far better to take off the sarrows and stick em on cross ball often from mixed and then have a target man in the centre, which is far more effective. Your wingforwards don't get marked out and when one of them crosses the ball both go in to challenge for it at the far post.

But having this kind of strike force is not as good as this one...

<pre class="ip-ubbcode-code-pre">

<--------FL FC <---FR

</pre>

This is the trident as Buxton likes to call it. I created this strange looking strike formation for 03/04 the reason why? The FR will always drop back to defend and build up. This means that you can get a 6 attack and 6 defend formation, which is the Holy Grail for me when it comes to creating a formation cos its so hard to break down. This is what ScramjetII is using for FM2007.

To set this up effectively you need to understand how it works. The FL goes extra wide to pick up balls and he is the one crossing and creating the dangerous balls and the two on the right are the danger men, they finish the attacks off. so they do not need to cross. All they need to do is finish a ball off.

Set-Pieces

Set pieces are critical in this game, setting them up effectively means that you need to put the right people in the right places and you need to do targetted corners and free kicks. Have the corners onto the 6 yard box and have your best headers on attack far and near. Then have the rest of your players lurk outside the box, place your fullbacks on stay back duty and this should get you goals and also allow you to retain possession when you fail to convert.

when defending a corner, place your fullbacks on near and far post, have your best jumpers jump with their tallest players and then have one striker and one midfielder on stay forward. Its far better to have one mid and one FW cos you get better use of the ball.

That's a heck of a lot...maybe someday I'll go into choosing the right players for the right job. But the trick in going on phenomenal winning streaks is how you get the best out of them, so training is important and putting the right players in the right positions is also important. I may go into this more in the future, but this may be info overload. I hope this helps and once again its just my way

+++++++++

Another inspiring post by Rashidi. Well done

once again a nice post rahidi...

i deploy all the things you said to a 4-1-3-2 formation with arsenal and report my findings soon.

I have tried to get some feedback in my post (the Barnz FM07, and must say this is the sort of thing I was looking for, thanks

Superb !

Finally, a proper thread on tactical discussion.

Great post, Rashidi.

However, i have issues with your take on the defensive line. Although there may not be a perceivable difference in the on pitch position of the d-line, the gap between the midfield and the defence increases with low settings. If you have a d-line of 5 with a mentality or 15, then there are likely to be big gaps between your midfielders and defenders. This could be good against teams that sit back and defend, as it opens the park for possession football, but suicidal against a side flooding the midfield with forward runs. Setting the d-line is a matter of deciding whether a loose, attacking formation is preferable over a tight, defensive one. Choosing the wrong option really hurts performance.

Originally posted by wwfan:

Great post, Rashidi.

However, i have issues with your take on the defensive line. Although there may not be a perceivable difference in the on pitch position of the d-line, the gap between the midfield and the defence increases with low settings. If you have a d-line of 5 with a mentality or 15, then there are likely to be big gaps between your midfielders and defenders. This could be good against teams that sit back and defend, as it opens the park for possession football, but suicidal against a side flooding the midfield with forward runs. Setting the d-line is a matter of deciding whether a loose, attacking formation is preferable over a tight, defensive one. Choosing the wrong option really hurts performance.

No worries mate..even I for one believe that pushing a Dline up encourages the DMC in a 4132 to take on a more attacking role. But, what's strange is that whether you have 1 or 20, the last line of defence is exactly in the same position. Pushing a Dline up should also in effect push up the backline, something that I don't see, in previous versions of the game, the effect was far more noticeable than it is now, hence my view.

Exactly Rashidi,

The DLine thing is really getting on my nerves in this version. At least in previous versions, if you set a deep line, you could tell they were playing deep

I agree that d-line deepness/highness is not very noticeable in terms of on pitch position. I feel this was first tweaked in 6.0.2, as before then a high d-line would play in the opposition's half, which was crazy as the FCs would wait goal side and break. Something changed in 6.0.2 to stop that happening, and I think it was related to matching d-line to mentality.

Presently I don't factor in Dline so much into the game, I generally leave it to normal cos I think the other sliders have a more profound effect.

Great post bud . Took me 4 hours to read like but yeah, i will be hoping that a few tips can help me

Excellent Post Rashidi,

You are my hero...

I am going to use the new understanding I have just gained about the match engine/game to turn around the abysmal season I am having here...

But instead of a 3-4-3, I'm thinking of more of a 3-4-2-1 because my team's strength is in AMC's and weakness is in FC's. I have set the AMC's up as if they were the "wing strikers" in a 3-4-3 kinda like this

\ FC

\ \

\ \

AMC AMC

I'm thinking there shouldn't be too much of a difference in performance when compared to a 3-striker formation. what do you think?

Originally posted by lanredo:

Excellent Post Rashidi,

You are my hero...

I am going to use the new understanding I have just gained about the match engine/game to turn around the abysmal season I am having here...

But instead of a 3-4-3, I'm thinking of more of a 3-4-2-1 because my team's strength is in AMC's and weakness is in FC's. I have set the AMC's up as if they were the "wing strikers" in a 3-4-3 kinda like this

\ FC

\ \

\ \

AMC AMC

I'm thinking there shouldn't be too much of a difference in performance when compared to a 3-striker formation. what do you think?

For the Setup, it was meant to be

--------\------FC--------

---------\------\--------

----------\------\-------

----------AMC----AMC------

PS,

Just to clarify, in that "Diamond Back Four", Do you have your DC's with sarrows?

I like tactics with three at the back and three upfront and I see that you then use a DM to cover these three defenders.

My question is what do you do with the three vacant midfielder positions?

You say that when use three at the back you need to win the flanks and was wondering how you would go about this: MR-MC-ML, MR-AMC-ML, WBR-CM-WBL or WBR-AMC-WBL?

I allways find this very difficult to set up and usually end up with a 5-3-2 formation.

new char

Originally posted by lanredo:

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by lanredo:

Excellent Post Rashidi,

You are my hero...

I am going to use the new understanding I have just gained about the match engine/game to turn around the abysmal season I am having here...

But instead of a 3-4-3, I'm thinking of more of a 3-4-2-1 because my team's strength is in AMC's and weakness is in FC's. I have set the AMC's up as if they were the "wing strikers" in a 3-4-3 kinda like this

\ FC

\ \

\ \

AMC AMC

I'm thinking there shouldn't be too much of a difference in performance when compared to a 3-striker formation. what do you think?

For the Setup, it was meant to be

--------\------FC--------

---------\------\--------

----------\------\-------

----------AMC----AMC------

PS,

Just to clarify, in that "Diamond Back Four", Do you have your DC's with sarrows? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I can't really tell...why don't you use [Codes] that way you can put the arrows in and it'll be clearer...it'd be easier if you tell me what you want to achieve. It looks to me like you want to Darrow this which would mean players running diagonally. I haven't really tried that out consistently yet to see how that would translate. But if you do choose to have AMCs then you have a lot of options, they could be darrowed, which would mean they usually work their way down the flanks. But my experience with this is limited, my experiements didn't work they way I wanted so i had to put it aside

Originally posted by RMXtreme:

I like tactics with three at the back and three upfront and I see that you then use a DM to cover these three defenders.

My question is what do you do with the three vacant midfielder positions?

You say that when use three at the back you need to win the flanks and was wondering how you would go about this: MR-MC-ML, MR-AMC-ML, WBR-CM-WBL or WBR-AMC-WBL?

I allways find this very difficult to set up and usually end up with a 5-3-2 formation.

In a traditional 343 formation the flanka are defensive in orientation and hardly if ever take runs to the byeline. In my 343 formations thats what they do, the idea is to have your central MCs act as the link. Another option is the direct route to attack. Now if your strikeforce include fowards who cross, then having your DCs on direct passing could prove useful when you break.

Personally, depending on the team. I would have one 343 which would be heavily closing down in front and at the back for the DCs and with TM and low closing down for the wide midfielders, high tempo with direct passing.

For a 352...thats almost on the same lines except this time I want the WBRs to make forward runs as opposed to the wide mids in the 343. I would probably employ 2 MCs and 1 AMC in this formation. The team would be set on short passing and would play a match of slow tempo. But I will definitely consider putting my WBs on direct passing and set both my forwards on cross ball and give the AMC an arrow into the box, or set him up high on mentality so he comes in unmarked

rashidi will you be making any tactics this year for FM.....can you also give me more pointers on4-1-3-2...i have an "avarage team" but i wanna be able to make a tactic where big teams(like chelsea and man u and all the others) wont simmply walk all over my team....so how would so you set up a 4-1-3-2 formation with an avarage team against big teams(CA-around 135 for all players)

Looks like the D-line debate will run and run...

I'm with Rash and Noel on this- it seems to be less important certainly, although I did notice a differnce when changing from push up to deep. For the better too. Will be interesting to test this further.

Great thread Rash.

i use the trident stike force but with 2 strikers, i play as swindon and Lee Peacock (FC) likes to get right into the corner of the pitch, even though he is a centre forward.

so I usually have his 'right-click arrow' for want of a better term, allowing him to go there, and i have my other 'main' striker who puts the goals away

i usually play a 4-1-3-2 and I have Ricky Shakes (AMR) on the right hand side of the 3, with a 'right-click-arrow' sending him to the true AMR position, I have the tactic set up to go down the right flank, with Ricky Shakes as the play maker.

so basically i have a nice attack where my defense will want to give it to the playmaker Shakes, he pushes up and meets Peacock in the 'top right corner' of the pitch

then Shakes runs into the box, and meets my centre forward, and one of the 3 players will put the ball away.

ive scored about 25 goals in 10 games!

i am playing with swindon, who are a natural 5-3-2 team, but they suggest 3-2-3-2 (ie 3 DC, 2WB 3 MC, 2 ST) but it only seems to work well against teams which are 'better' than me

Excellet post Rashidi. Your attacking tips have certainly hepled me grab a few more goals. The only problem i find playing my 442 diamond is that quite often the opposition seems to find a way round the back of my defence. This is usaully a ball down the line which by passes my full backs. Also i used to be prone to balls over the top but setting my wo DC's on seprate closing down levels seems to have stopped this happening.

Cheers

Brilliant topic

i usualy play with real wingers FL and FR not FLC FRC. I like to keep the pitch wide so my center midfielder can get a run in while the outside midfielders and dmc hold position. this way i get 3 guys in the box when the cross is made.

now the problem for me is the gaps in the midfield. my ideal formation would be a 343 with a diamond midfield. If i play my center midfield as an amc it leaves to much space between him and the amc and if i play him as a mc with farrow he doesnt join the attack as much as i would like. I tried to fix this with pulling my outer midfielders in closer but this exposes my flanks. I'm thinking about fixing this by having my dmc play like .. a raging mad man ie. keane gatusso. Who just hounds everything trying to get through the middle of the pitch, also giving my amc a barrow but low closing down so he just denies the player being targeted by my madman a passing posibility. Still need to test it just popped in my head while typing this post : ).

hmm if it works it would work like a charm : D.

and now for something completely different:

have any of you been able to get you're dc's to join in on the midfield play. Like the dutch style having a defender join in or a attack drop back to create a numerical superiority on the midfield?

anyways thanks for the post

Defensive line is important. It potrays the method of play. High for possesion, low for safe defensive position in case the opposition have a fast attacker and normal which is to play possesion but on a safer side.

I remember Sunderland playing Arsenal and McCarthy tried to neautralize Arsenals passing game which did not work at all. He did this by playing a high defensive line and to a degree it had an effect but whenever Arsenal broke it became a very dangerous situation for them and they were defending running backwards.

I think the more strikers used the lower defensive line can be used to play a fast attacking game. The lesser striker and the higher the defensive line. 4-3-3 to 4-5-1. I just cannot see 4-5-1 being played with low defensive line. Too many players in too positions give the opposition all the time in the world to close down.

rashidi

what tempo do you use for home and away games?

home-15?

away-5?

My tempo is closely allied to my passing. For some of my tactics I have mixed passing and my tempo is almost mixed. For short passing I use slow tempo.

The manual this time around provides a lot of clues:

1. Advisable to have individual mentaltities..ie. "Group your defenders" with one mentality to get them to work more efficiently.

2. Dline and Mentality though related, the impact of both of them of them on the game isn't a big one. Which makes me feel that setting a DLine of mixed is enough in the game.

FourThreeThree[b/]With all due respect, what your portray happens in real life but not in the game in any way whatsoever. It used to. What I'm saying is that Dline should have more profound effects on creating a tactic so that the effect of mentality would not be as profound.

em meant to say you can have individual mentalities and you can also effectively set up groups too.

Originally posted by horseman_Plague:

Brilliant topic

and now for something completely different:

have any of you been able to get you're dc's to join in on the midfield play. Like the dutch style having a defender join in or a attack drop back to create a numerical superiority on the midfield?

anyways thanks for the post

FRs and high CF for the sweeper? Any thoughts, Rash? I've never tried it myself, but it could work for home formations??

Risky for a sweeper. Worth a try, haven't really tried it out yet. But he'll lead loads of stamina and an above average workrate.

I am currently using "the trident" in a 5-2-3/3-4-3 formation, playing as Tottenham. My strikers have been having a bit of a trouble to score despite having a lot of possession and a great deal of opportunities to score. I had a tough start with Newcastle home, Manchester United away and Liverpool home and shortly after that I had to face Chelsea at home. The tactic seemed to be semi effective defensively but lack the ability to score (which meant a lot of 0-0 matches) so I did some changes and last two games I've scored 55% of all goals this season, and I think I have an idea how to make it more solid defensivly.

To set this up effectively you need to understand how it works. The FL goes extra wide to pick up balls and he is the one crossing and creating the dangerous balls and the two on the right are the danger men, they finish the attacks off. so they do not need to cross. All they need to do is finish a ball off.

If you can be bothered, could you tell me a bit more of how you instruct your three forwards?

And lastly, is there any information about ScramjetII anywhere?

this is really good man, thanks alot.

i am printing this as i speak

Rashidi speaks too much sense. Sureley he speaks common sense, and common is something we all know anyways. All he is doing is stating the obvious and... let's face it... some of us need it stating to us because we try ridiculous tactics to get the perfect formulae.

Time to ditch the crazy and concentrate on the simple. A 1-0 win is a win nonetheless..... AHHH who am I kidding I just love watching a good thrashing, but sadly it's me who is on the end of it most of the time.

Originally posted by wwfan:

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by horseman_Plague:

Brilliant topic

and now for something completely different:

have any of you been able to get you're dc's to join in on the midfield play. Like the dutch style having a defender join in or a attack drop back to create a numerical superiority on the midfield?

anyways thanks for the post

FRs and high CF for the sweeper? Any thoughts, Rash? I've never tried it myself, but it could work for home formations?? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

its meant for a 433 so 2 fullbacks and 2 dc's. Where its needed a defender slides in not just the fullbacks but the dc's also.

Hmm I don't know, personally speaking i don't think it'll work to give a numerical superiority..the best I've seen is a DC driving forward into a box, and I think one of the MCs actually dropped behind him too.

rashidi1, i must admit that your thoughts on closing down are brilliant. i have been using 442 formation with darrows MC->AMC and MC->DMC. tactics is quite solid thanks to wwfan RoT mentality system, but despite offensively looking i had some problems scoring. later in the season i had also a real problem facing 442 with long farrows on the wings in away games. i was clearly loosing possesion and was outnumbered on the wings. high closing down for FBs, FCs and slight lowering of FB mentality did the trick. interestingly enough it also led to more offensive opportunities. almost forgot to mention, i manage Hitchin in conference south, that in itself is an indicator.

rashidi

you suggested to play with d- line something about 8. but what with away games?( higher d-line?) And what about forward runs to my fulbacks? Home- often, away--mixed? i will be glad to your opinion. Sorry for english

Having re-read your post, I really think you're right regarding the importance of closing down in this game.

Great stuff.

@fq

According to the Manual, the D-line reflects the position your defenders take up on the pitch. However based on my experience in 07,whether you set it on 1 or 20, the backline is still in the same position.

The manual also states that normal settings set the Dline in relation to the position of the ball. Now since the D-Line obviously doesn't seem to have such a huge positional impact and because it seems to be tempered by mentality then it follows that the best thing to do is to let the engine decide where your defenders should be. Setting it to the lowest level of normal appears to be the best so far. That is my opinion of course but having used that logic extensively for LLM I find that its the most useful approach.

If you are a weak side and passing is not your best suit, then go narrow especially away from home and play short. This way you reduce passing distances which should encourage accuracy, reducing the tempo will also encourage you to keep possession of the ball.

Setting FWR on FBs for away matches is ok, depending on your formation of course and how closing down is set. Its perfectly ok to have fullbacks cross from deep. The more crosses in your game the more times you get your ball in dangerous positions. I like to hold on to the ball as much as possible away/home to dictate the pace of the game. How good your fullbacks and Mids are at crossing should determine your crossing frequency imho.

Sorry but one question- when you discuss "high closing down" in a global context do you mean high within "own half" settings (or "normal")?

"How high or low you want to go depends on how much you use the slider"

I take it you mean between 6 and 14 here roughly?

Originally posted by Mighty Red:

Great advice from WWfan + rashidi, managed to get through my first season as Liverpool averaging just over 2 goals a game and 0.4 goals against. Not massively impressive, but was pleased with the defensive soundness given i'm playing 3 at the back.

Into my 2nd season, you do see the effects of the re-ranking - would add that whilst I agree with the two masters of tactics re: playmakers and target men, I have used Crouch as a TM to great advantage when against poor jumpers in really defensive set-ups. Playing with 3 up front, I can move him out to play against the fullbacks where there is often a mis-match. I would stress that I only do this for 1/2 hour at a time as the oppo will pick this up.

Also, to reinforce - dropping the d-line is the single most useful thing I've done to counter a defensive system. However, I have struggled against the 4-4-1-1 for some reason. The defensive 4-4-2, 4-1-4-1 and 4-2-2-2 are not really issues anymore.

From TT&F but I thought it would be beneficial to the d-line discussions in this thread.

Originally posted by Asmodeus:

Sorry but one question- when you discuss "high closing down" in a global context do you mean high within "own half" settings (or "normal")?

"How high or low you want to go depends on how much you use the slider"

I take it you mean between 6 and 14 here roughly?

Your slider apathy

rashidi

do you use the same closing down away and home games? and do you use global passing or individual? And what dou you think, should i play quick \tempo when i playing home, and slow when away? thanx

Amazing level of info! and i thought i knew a bit about the game. Respect!

this is a great thread it will take me a while to understand all these different theories on tactics but i will give it a go. Has anyone tried this with a 442 formation i amthinking fo giving a go with Arsenal

@fq

No I do not use the same closing down away/home, it all depends on who I play, and what formations I face. Presently I'm using a welsh club in conference south. The way I play is usually begin with a staggered closing down strategy, where i break my teams into different zones. The ones up front CD the hardest.

I've been experimenting with DLine as well, so when I push up my defensive line...I tend to end up parking my bus in their half. By playing slow tempo, short passing, I keep pinging their box with crosses.

There was one game I knew that would not be possible cos they possessed a strong midfield who could pass the ball very well. Against them I pressed them hard and kept them pegged in their half and then with 10 mins to go I loosened the pressure by using another tactic with one preset closing down value for the whole team.

I have no idea what you should play, it really depends on how good a squad you have vs the rest of the league. If you have a very good side then you don't really need to do very much to win. You could put the whole team on one CD keep one DC at a low CD. Set the Dline at 10, start with a narrow formation with a short passing game with short tempo...and then when you see the other side has less stamina, switch to direct passing, quick tempo and deep dline.

Can you see that there are various ways to play?

rash

i have one last question:

i played with this settings:

dc- cd 5

fb-cd 12

dmc-cd 12

mr/l-cd 12

amc,fc,fc-cd 20

But please tell me: how i should give c.freedom for amc, fc, fc. Becouse when FCs and Amc has dc 20 i worry that their(FCs,AMC) don`t create changes to score. Should i give thier max cf? I should i give my wingers higher cd. ( i usually give my wingers cd 12)

Sorry for take your time and my poor english

Thanx for answer

Are you playing a narrow or wide formation? If its wide I reckon that you could keep you DMC on the same settings, the fullbacks look ok. Why don't you you have the ML-SC all on 15 for CD? I'd try that.

As far as CF goes, it really depends. I would just set the attackers on 12.

rash

thanx for answer

i always play wide ( 14) I hate play narrow. So if i play wide my dmc is on cd 12. Is that ok? You told me " i would set Fc on 12" but cd or cf?

I like to play on normal for width, I find that is usually enough for my side which is always tipped to be a relegation candidate. Playing with my 442 diamond. I usually have high CDs for the strikers. Usually at 20..this includes the AMC as well the fullbacks and the wingers are on the same around 12 and the DCs are set to much lower and on tight marking.

As far as creative freedom is concerned. Having the front line on 12 should be sufficient. If my side can play some really exquisite football on 12, I can't see why yours can't

thanx rash. I `m glad to your opinion. I will try playing with this seetings and give you fedback ( if you want ofcourse)

dc- cd 5 cf 5

fc- cd 12 cf 5

dmc- cd 12 cf 5

mr/l- cd 15 cf 10

amc- cd 20 cf 12

fCs- cd 20 cf 12

I never play with counter attack on. I love keep possesion. I think that counter attack on can lose possesion ( it is my opinion ofcourse)

to keep possesion i playing slow tempo , short passing. And give hold ball 2 players ( dmc, and fc with lower mentality)

Rash, what do you think about this seetings?