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cafe_latte
13-01-2008, 13:21
Yup, as the subject suggests, I am using just the commentary when I play matches with the useless 8.0.1 update and I am actually, and literally flying at the moment!

I am sitting on top of Serie A with AC Milan, unbeaten and with a 10 point lead aswell. I expect to finish with nearly 100 goals and also 100 points, and that would give me my 2nd Serie A championship on the trot. I started playing my matches this way last season at around match week 28 as so many games were leaving me with one goal scored with about 40 shots on goal and it was cheesing me right off. I remembered someone mentioning that they were faring far better with just the commentary on, and so I decided to see if this would help me - and of course it has.

So basically what I am saying is... is if you want to have a better opportunity at winning matches, then revert back to the days when there wasn't such a thing as the 2D match engine. Go back to commentary and watch your team play better (and score more too!).

cafe_latte
13-01-2008, 13:21
Yup, as the subject suggests, I am using just the commentary when I play matches with the useless 8.0.1 update and I am actually, and literally flying at the moment!

I am sitting on top of Serie A with AC Milan, unbeaten and with a 10 point lead aswell. I expect to finish with nearly 100 goals and also 100 points, and that would give me my 2nd Serie A championship on the trot. I started playing my matches this way last season at around match week 28 as so many games were leaving me with one goal scored with about 40 shots on goal and it was cheesing me right off. I remembered someone mentioning that they were faring far better with just the commentary on, and so I decided to see if this would help me - and of course it has.

So basically what I am saying is... is if you want to have a better opportunity at winning matches, then revert back to the days when there wasn't such a thing as the 2D match engine. Go back to commentary and watch your team play better (and score more too!).

gavnoble
13-01-2008, 13:23
It's purely coincidence as the match engine is the same whether you use text or the 2D view.

cafe_latte
13-01-2008, 13:26
maybe coincidence? Hmm.. I doubt it, but I will go back to the 2D engine and test this theory.

Post results ASAP.

NepentheZ
13-01-2008, 13:39
I am in full agreement with Cafe_Latte.... I seem to be MUCH MUCH more successful when i ony use commentary...

niktheblade1
13-01-2008, 13:44
This is a strange topic, I seem to do better when I slow the speed down, If I put it on full speed, FM seems to think "well, if you can't be bothered to watch, you will lose every match" I thought it was just coincidence but now you mention it....

heathxxx
13-01-2008, 13:55
I've advocated this for a long time for those moaning about the match engine.

SI never had half the complaints before the 2D match engine arrived, but since, people ALWAYS complain about "super" keepers, 1v1, etc...

I'm unaware if it makes any difference to results in reality, but I'm sure that someone will pop up with a "detailed examination... with proof!!" soon enough.

The key influences as is well known, are to do with reputation, tactics, players, team-talks, media interaction, plus alot more than just how the match engine is viewed.

I'm not saying there are'nt issues that are proven to exist. I just believe that people are taking things completely out of proportion.

BobbyB123
13-01-2008, 14:00
What a pointless the thread. The game engine does exactly the same whether you have the speed on quick or slow , or whether you choose to turn the 2D Engine off.

niktheblade1
13-01-2008, 14:03
Bobby B... what you must ask yourself is...

If your feelings are that this is a pointless thread, why did you

a. read it
b. respond to it, to tell everyone that you think it is a pointless thread.

If someone thought enough about it to post a thread, then it must not have been pointless to them, respect peoples opinions rather than tainting this forum with beratings of other users.

Many thanks

Ackter
13-01-2008, 14:05
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by niktheblade1:
This is a strange topic, I seem to do better when I slow the speed down, If I put it on full speed, FM seems to think "well, if you can't be bothered to watch, you will lose every match" I thought it was just coincidence but now you mention it.... </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Or to be logical for a moment, maybe because youre watching it slower you can see what's happening better and have more time to implement changes.

Gypsum
13-01-2008, 14:08
It's because you no longer see the "bugs" in the game, and therefore they don't bother you any more. Which only goes to show that what you were complaining about in the first place was an embelishment of the mind.

BobbyB123
13-01-2008, 14:08
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by niktheblade1:
Bobby B... what you must ask yourself is...

If your feelings are that this is a pointless thread, why did you

a. read it
b. respond to it, to tell everyone that you think it is a pointless thread.

If someone thought enough about it to post a thread, then it must not have been pointless to them, respect peoples opinions rather than tainting this forum with beratings of other users.

Many thanks </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Berating - yea ; whatever.

Its like saying watching the TV with the sound turned off is going to change what happens in the program. It reduces your understanding of whats going on , but it doesn't change whats going on.

Ackter
13-01-2008, 14:09
That's an excellent analogy and I may steal it for future use.

BobbyB123
13-01-2008, 14:10
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Gypsum:
It's because you no longer see the "bugs" in the game, and therefore they don't bother you any more. Which only goes to show that what you were complaining about in the first place was an embelishment of the mind. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Well no , because if you follow the stats at the end of the game , and it says 30 shots , 19 on target. And you haven't managed to score , the bug still exists. Just means that your choosing not to watch them happen.

NepentheZ
13-01-2008, 14:26
ALl i know is, when i watch the match Full speed, commentary only, with the view of the screen as "human stats" (home or away, depending on where im playing), i seem to win. If i watch highlights, or leave it on the "overview" or "match stats" screen, or have it on split view, or anything else, it causes problems. http://community.sigames.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

I know its in my head, but i dont care.

HHUK
13-01-2008, 14:31
Actually, I just tried this, was having 25+ shots on goal, scoring only 1 or two a game, conceeding aswell.

Switched to commentary only, I'm having more like 10 shots, 3 goals every game. Coincedence?

I understand that the game undergoes the "same" proccesses no matter what view you pick apparently but it is quite suspicious how the stats are working out.

I just saved, played a game twice in 2D view, same tactics same players, lots of shots, then I tried the same game twice in commentary only, had more like 10 shots again.

Is this just stupid luck?

Ackter
13-01-2008, 14:32
It's just coincidence.

Ackter
13-01-2008, 14:32
Though it be simply because you react differently to what you see, and do things you wouldn't do while watching the 2D.

Gypsum
13-01-2008, 14:44
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by BobbyB123:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Gypsum:
It's because you no longer see the "bugs" in the game, and therefore they don't bother you any more. Which only goes to show that what you were complaining about in the first place was an embelishment of the mind. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Well no , because if you follow the stats at the end of the game , and it says 30 shots , 19 on target. And you haven't managed to score , the bug still exists. Just means that your choosing not to watch them happen. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

But he didn't say that. He said he wasn't having the problem.

ifllorescu
13-01-2008, 15:02
This is easy to check.

You can tick the option in setting which says something to the effect: reset the random seed when reloading the game. Then save the game right before a game starts.

Play the game on 2D record the stats. Then quit and replay the same game "old school". Compare the stats. They should be the same if the 2D does not make a difference.

BobbyB123
13-01-2008, 15:05
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by ifllorescu:
This is easy to check.

You can tick the option in setting which says something to the effect: reset the random seed when reloading the game. Then save the game right before a game starts.

Play the game on 2D record the stats. Then quit and replay the same game "old school". Compare the stats. They should be the same if the 2D does not make a difference. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Well no , because certain factors can change the course of a game. For example an early goal , injury / sending off , and substitutions.

ifllorescu
13-01-2008, 15:11
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by BobbyB123:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by ifllorescu:
This is easy to check.

You can tick the option in setting which says something to the effect: reset the random seed when reloading the game. Then save the game right before a game starts.

Play the game on 2D record the stats. Then quit and replay the same game "old school". Compare the stats. They should be the same if the 2D does not make a difference. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Well no , because certain factors can change the course of a game. For example an early goal , injury / sending off , and substitutions. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Surely, an early goal is created by the random seed which is the same in every game. Thus, both would give the same early goal in exactly the same minute.

Setting the seed for the pseudo random number generator in Mathlab C or whatever language you use to write your code would result in the same numbers being generated every time.

However, I do not know about random events and stuff (outside the match engine). That is why one needs to save right before the start of the game and use the same exact players and tactics.

Ackter
13-01-2008, 15:21
Nope, wouldn't happen like that. Will be a different match every time.

Starr_Man5
13-01-2008, 15:27
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Ackter:
Nope, wouldn't happen like that. Will be a different match every time. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

http://community.sigames.com/customicons/icon14.gif http://community.sigames.com/customicons/icon14.gif

ifllorescu
13-01-2008, 16:22
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Starr_Man5:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Ackter:
Nope, wouldn't happen like that. Will be a different match every time. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

http://community.sigames.com/customicons/icon14.gif http://community.sigames.com/customicons/icon14.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Actually it would happen like that. If only there would be a way to restart with the same random seed.

I apologize for posting before checking. I looked and there is no easy way to reset the seed. I must have thinking about the Fifa Manager game which I believe has an option like that.

TFS
13-01-2008, 16:33
Back in CM 06~ the only way I could win was by running around the room pretending to be Eric Cantona blasting imaginary footballs into the back of an imaginary net. Nowadays, after 12 or so years of playing it from the age of 7, I don't have to resort to such cheating (except in european cup finals).

McDoul
13-01-2008, 16:56
Commentary only has been suicidal for me since FM2007, just seem to get turned over to easy

NepentheZ
13-01-2008, 17:46
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Starr_Man5:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Ackter:
Nope, wouldn't happen like that. Will be a different match every time. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

http://community.sigames.com/customicons/icon14.gif http://community.sigames.com/customicons/icon14.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

There is a program that you can use so it will play out the exact same scenario each time. Somebody on here did a test with it a while back to see how much effect Team Talks have on an outcome, using that, you could play the game in 2d match engine, then replay the match doing the EXACT same things "old school" and see what the outcome will be...

littlebeagle
14-01-2008, 05:23
I don't know if there is any difference between watching the 2d or just the commentary.

For me I only ever watch the commentary as that's what I grew up doing and I still think its a million times better than the 2d engine.

postal postie
14-01-2008, 05:51
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by niktheblade1:
Bobby B... what you must ask yourself is...

If your feelings are that this is a pointless thread, why did you

a. read it
b. respond to it, to tell everyone that you think it is a pointless thread.

If someone thought enough about it to post a thread, then it must not have been pointless to them, respect peoples opinions rather than tainting this forum with beratings of other users.

Many thanks </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

he had to read it first to decide it was pointless.
if he hadn't read it then his view would have meant nothing.

and the fact he responded has nothing to do with whether its a pointless thread or not http://community.sigames.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_confused.gif

postal postie
14-01-2008, 05:52
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by BobbyB123:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by niktheblade1:
Bobby B... what you must ask yourself is...

If your feelings are that this is a pointless thread, why did you

a. read it
b. respond to it, to tell everyone that you think it is a pointless thread.

If someone thought enough about it to post a thread, then it must not have been pointless to them, respect peoples opinions rather than tainting this forum with beratings of other users.

Many thanks </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Berating - yea ; whatever.

Its like saying watching the TV with the sound turned off is going to change what happens in the program. It reduces your understanding of whats going on , but it doesn't change whats going on. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

wahey for new analogys http://community.sigames.com/customicons/icon14.gif lets put the car one to bed now http://community.sigames.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

George Graham
14-01-2008, 05:58
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by heathxxx:
I've advocated this for a long time for those moaning about the match engine.

SI never had half the complaints before the 2D match engine arrived, but since, people ALWAYS complain about "super" keepers, 1v1, etc...

I'm unaware if it makes any difference to results in reality, but I'm sure that someone will pop up with a "detailed examination... with proof!!" soon enough.

The key influences as is well known, are to do with reputation, tactics, players, team-talks, media interaction, plus alot more than just how the match engine is viewed.

I'm not saying there are'nt issues that are proven to exist. I just believe that people are taking things completely out of proportion. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

As somebody who has been on these boards in various guises since CM2, I can assure you that the perception of, and complaints about "superkeepers" have always been with CM/FM.

Although in this version there is actually a lot of substance in it- purely because under certain conditions its easy to create over 25 chances (many of them clearcut one v ones) every single game, for whatever reason many are just shot straight at the keeper. Not so much superkeepers but certainly a genuine issue.

The only myth I can see is that the 2D gives different results.

No it doesnt- its just Cafe's perception. Perception is a very powerful and misleading thing.

xouman
14-01-2008, 06:31
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by NepentheZ:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Starr_Man5:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Ackter:
Nope, wouldn't happen like that. Will be a different match every time. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

http://community.sigames.com/customicons/icon14.gif http://community.sigames.com/customicons/icon14.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

There is a program that you can use so it will play out the exact same scenario each time. Somebody on here did a test with it a while back to see how much effect Team Talks have on an outcome, using that, you could play the game in 2d match engine, then replay the match doing the EXACT same things "old school" and see what the outcome will be... </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

yes, there are systems as vmware that let you create an environment and so you can play the SAME game as many times as you want to. People has tested it, but I never was capable of configure it properly XDDDD

cafe_latte
14-01-2008, 09:16
Wow.. didn't expect so many to comment in my thread!

Everything that has been said in this thread has to be taken into consideration. I understand that watching either the 2d engine or just the commentary uses the same methods, but I did what I said I would do and played 8 matches in 2d and then the same games in just commentary and it came out like this.. starting with 2d.

2D Match Engine:

A) Catania L 0-1

MIL 30 shots on goal, 12 on target.
CAT 4 shots on goal, 1 on target.

H) Inter D 1-1

MIL 29 shots on goal, 21 on target.
INT 2 shots on goal, 2 shots on target.

H) Lazio W 2-1

MIL 7 shots on goal, 6 on target.
LAZ 7 shots on goal, 2 on target.

A) Sampdoria L 1-3

MIL 16 shots on goal, 8 on target.
SAM 5 shots on goal, 4 on target.

H) Atalanta L 0-1

MIL 23 shots on goal, 16 on target.
ATA 7 shots on goal, 1 on target.

A) Chievo Verona D 0-0

MIL 11 shots on goal, 3 on target.
CHI 4 ***** on goal, 0 on target.

H) Livorno W 3-1

MIL 38 shots on goal, 18 on target.
LIV 6 shots on goal, 3 on target.

A) AS Roma L 1-4

MIL 17 shots on goal, 10 on target.
ASR 6 shots on goal, 5 on target.

Just Commentary:

A) Catania W 2-1

MIL 11 shots on goal, 6 on target.
CAT 2 shots on goal, 2 on target.

H) Inter W 3-0

MIL 9 shots on goal, 4 on target.
INT 5 shots on goal, 1 shots on target.

H) Lazio D 2-2

MIL 6 shots on goal, 3 on target.
LAZ 5 shots on goal, 2 on target.

A) Sampdoria W 1-0

MIL 7 shots on goal, 3 on target.
SAM 5 shots on goal, 2 on target.

H) Atalanta W 5-0

MIL 19 shots on goal, 11 on target.
ATA 4 shots on goal, 0 on target.

A) Chievo Verona W 2-0

MIL 7 shots on goal, 5 on target.
CHI 5 ***** on goal, 2 on target.

H) Livorno W 4-1

MIL 14 shots on goal, 8 on target.
LIV 5 shots on goal, 3 on target.

A) AS Roma W 3-2

MIL 7 shots on goal, 3 on target.
ASR 8 shots on goal, 6 on target.

I think this shows that there must be something going on. This surely cannot be regarded just as a simple coincidence? The results are just TOO different. If the results on slightly changed, then yes, I would say either nothing has changed, or it's a simple coincidence, but these results have huge differnces compared to the 2D results. It might well be just a fluke, but I'm going to stick with what I orginally said at the start of this thread - Playing with just commentary has a more fairer and more realistic outcome.

ahmed.sg
14-01-2008, 11:31
Stupid question. How do I turn the game to commentary only? I might try this as I gave up on FM08, downloaded CM08 demo, found it to be crap, contemplated buying Fifa Manager, preferred suicide then just went back to FM07 and had fun again.

Lisandro Lopez
14-01-2008, 11:45
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by George Graham:

Just Cafe's perception. Perception is a very powerful and misleading thing. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

You only used 8 games to test your theory out, also if you are just saving the game, trying 8 games with 2d engine and then reloading the game and trying those same 8 games with just commertary how is this a good way to test your theory. Because once you reload that game it can change how a result comes out. There are plenty of varibles which can be effected if you just reload and try it again.

I am sorry but weather you watch it with 2D engine or the commentary it doesn't effect the result. Its all in your mind!

Lisandro Lopez
14-01-2008, 11:46
Ops forgot to say I used George Graham's quote because he is spot on!

ahmed.sg
14-01-2008, 11:48
It works! I just won my first ever match on FM08.

Midge
14-01-2008, 12:02
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by niktheblade1:
Bobby B... what you must ask yourself is...

If your feelings are that this is a pointless thread, why did you

a. read it
b. respond to it, to tell everyone that you think it is a pointless thread.

If someone thought enough about it to post a thread, then it must not have been pointless to them, respect peoples opinions rather than tainting this forum with beratings of other users.

Many thanks </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Well in truth he had to read to find out it was a pointless thread http://community.sigames.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif (sry just in a pedantic mood)

But yeh the engine is the same it does not react to what view you are using.

Wakers
14-01-2008, 13:15
No its really perfectly true. As soon as i swtich to commentary only, my strikers actually dribble around the goalkeeper and shoot at the corners of the goals!

The guy that used 8 matches and someone complained - come on, look at how different the match stats were there! Take your blinkers off.

I also don't have the ridiculous amounts of shots problem when i have commentary only on!

How strange :/

gunnerfan
14-01-2008, 13:21
8 matches would not be an appropriate sample size. At a minimum, you would have to run the season several times for both Commentary Only and 2-D. That's because every time you play a season, you will have varying results simply by chance (for example, if you were to play a match, quit without saving, reload, play the match, quit without saving, etc, etc, you would not see the same match played out the same way repeatedly). I would think that, to get any kind of statistical certainty, you would need to run the season about 30 times each way.

I'm not suggesting you do this. I wouldn't be bothered unless I had a viable theory as to what, specifically, might change in the game engine between Commentary Only and 2-D, and why.

The only thing I can think of is what Ackter said earlier - your reaction to the game may change based on what you see on the screen.

Wakers
14-01-2008, 13:29
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by gunnerfan:
8 matches would not be an appropriate sample size. At a minimum, you would have to run the season several times for both Commentary Only and 2-D. That's because every time you play a season, you will have varying results simply by chance (for example, if you were to play a match, quit without saving, reload, play the match, quit without saving, etc, etc, you would not see the same match played out the same way repeatedly). I would think that, to get any kind of statistical certainty, you would need to run the season about 30 times each way.

I'm not suggesting you do this. I wouldn't be bothered unless I had a viable theory as to what, specifically, might change in the game engine between Commentary Only and 2-D, and why.

The only thing I can think of is what Ackter said earlier - your reaction to the game may change based on what you see on the screen. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

No thats rubbish - its pretty clear to see that things are different even after 10 games if you run them all again.

I'm using a tactic that i would have 35+ shots on goal per game and not score a single goal when i watched highlights. I switched to commentary without reloading, and guess what, i had no more than 20 shots during a game and i could score easily, also i wouldn't concede to my opponents only shot on target.

I then reloaded the game, used highlights only, match engine buig came back.

Reloaded again, used only commentary from the start, no bug!

Mike Fordham
14-01-2008, 14:59
I've played half a season on my Southampton game on commentary only.

Before the AI had cracked my tactics.

On commentary only, I am winning most of my games and having about 20 shots on goal a game.

If only the opposition goalkeepers weren't getting an averaging rating of 7.89 against me!

gunnerfan
14-01-2008, 18:02
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Wakers:

No thats rubbish - its pretty clear to see that things are different even after 10 games if you run them all again.

I'm using a tactic that i would have 35+ shots on goal per game and not score a single goal when i watched highlights. I switched to commentary without reloading, and guess what, i had no more than 20 shots during a game and i could score easily, also i wouldn't concede to my opponents only shot on target.

I then reloaded the game, used highlights only, match engine buig came back.

Reloaded again, used only commentary from the start, no bug! </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Never took statistics in school, did you?

Your sample size is way too small, because you don't know if the differences you saw in play were the result of an actual problem, or simply due to chance variations in game play. The patterns that you describe are possible across a wide variety of game situations - in fact, I have had similar experiences using ONLY 2-D.

To test for statistical validity, you would need a large enough sample size so that you could see how much variation there was in game play within Commentary only and within 2-D only, and then see if there was significantly greater variation between the two groups.

Also, I have yet to hear a plausible explanation as to why there would be any difference in gameplay between the two - other than what in another time and place would be called superstition.

JR866Gunner
15-01-2008, 05:27
ive started to do it old skool except i have goal highlights on aswell so my matches dont take quite so long to get through!

Mike7077
15-01-2008, 05:30
I'll always watch the match engine because I could have a really amazing result and/or performance, or a really terrible one, but without the match engine, I won't be able to see why it happened.

Steffers
15-01-2008, 05:38
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by JR866Gunner:
ive started to do it old skool except i have goal highlights on aswell so my matches dont take quite so long to get through! </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

ive breen using this way since fm07 and its worked well for me. i wouldnt say i was flying but i havent had half the shots to goal ratio problems as everyone else seems to have

Wakers
15-01-2008, 07:07
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by gunnerfan:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Wakers:

No thats rubbish - its pretty clear to see that things are different even after 10 games if you run them all again.

I'm using a tactic that i would have 35+ shots on goal per game and not score a single goal when i watched highlights. I switched to commentary without reloading, and guess what, i had no more than 20 shots during a game and i could score easily, also i wouldn't concede to my opponents only shot on target.

I then reloaded the game, used highlights only, match engine buig came back.

Reloaded again, used only commentary from the start, no bug! </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Never took statistics in school, did you?

Your sample size is way too small, because you don't know if the differences you saw in play were the result of an actual problem, or simply due to chance variations in game play. The patterns that you describe are possible across a wide variety of game situations - in fact, I have had similar experiences using ONLY 2-D.

To test for statistical validity, you would need a large enough sample size so that you could see how much variation there was in game play within Commentary only and within 2-D only, and then see if there was significantly greater variation between the two groups.

Also, I have yet to hear a plausible explanation as to why there would be any difference in gameplay between the two - other than what in another time and place would be called superstition. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Hello, yes i did actually. We don't know a plausable reason, we didn't make the game.

But look - you don't need a huge sample to CLEARLY see a difference!

If I play 10 games with my Blyth team using Croat's set of tactics, key highlights on, i get the bugged match engine - 25-35 shots, no goals opponent has 3 shots on target scores all 3.

If i reload, play with only commentary - not only do i have less shots, i can sore. the most amazing thing is, my striker will be one on one and shoot for the corners. This does not happen viewing highlights!

It happens EVERY single time i try it. I do not need to run a whole season. There is a huge, and OBVIOUS difference when switcing between commentary only and key highlights.

I've tried it 5 times now, every time the same result. OPEN YOUR DAMN EYES and stop blindly defending the game by arguing about insignificant little points.

charliemfc
15-01-2008, 07:29
Works for me.

And I forgot how much I missed the old days of commentary only

"Nii Lampty rounds the keeper"

"And scores!"

*sigh* I miss those magical days

deadeyedunc
15-01-2008, 07:38
I always have and always will play with commentary only - ignorance is bliss http://community.sigames.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Lisandro Lopez
15-01-2008, 07:59
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">If I play 10 games with my Blyth team using Croat's set of tactics, key highlights on, i get the bugged match engine - 25-35 shots, no goals opponent has 3 shots on target scores all 3.

If i reload, play with only commentary - not only do i have less shots, i can sore. the most amazing thing is, my striker will be one on one and shoot for the corners. This does not happen viewing highlights! </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

If you reload its not going to be the same conditions as your prevoius game. If you reload something else will happen different situations and variables come into play. Its not that simple to just say "ill try 10 games with match engine on" and then reload and "try 10 games with just commentary" do you people not understand this? Once you reload the game its not going to be the exact same game. There for this method is flawed...

Wakers
15-01-2008, 08:10
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by HoPeY:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">If I play 10 games with my Blyth team using Croat's set of tactics, key highlights on, i get the bugged match engine - 25-35 shots, no goals opponent has 3 shots on target scores all 3.

If i reload, play with only commentary - not only do i have less shots, i can sore. the most amazing thing is, my striker will be one on one and shoot for the corners. This does not happen viewing highlights! </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

If you reload its not going to be the same conditions as your prevoius game. If you reload something else will happen different situations and variables come into play. Its not that simple to just say "ill try 10 games with match engine on" and then reload and "try 10 games with just commentary" do you people not understand this? Once you reload the game its not going to be the exact same game. There for this method is flawed... </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

HELLO? How can you blind people continue to ignore what is written infront of you.. I will say again.

I have tried this now 5 thats (FIVE) 1, 2, 3, 4, 5!! times.

My procedure:

Play the same 10 games, 5 times over (play the block of 10, then reload) with key highlights on. In these ten games, EVERY SINGLE RUN THROUGH, I will suffer from the buggy match engine, where my strikers can do nothing but shoot straight at the goalkeeper 25 times in a match.

I then do the same, playing with only commentary. The results are CLEARLY Different. In these 50 games played with only commentary, there were about 3 times where the opposition only had 3 shots on target and managed to score 2/3 goals, and i had 25 on target and failed to score. Also, when viewing replays from these games, goals that i score frequently come from my strikers shooting for the corner of the goals.

When watching key highlights, roughly 25 (thats half) of my 50 games involved me bombarding the opponent and either not scoring or only scoring 1/2 goals, while the opposition scores with their only shot on target.

At what point will some of you blind people understand this? Stop defending the game, you are ruining it for those of us that want a truly realistic and bug free game.

To sum up - I have done this 5 times now! it does not matter that I only use 10 games and then reload, because there is such a CLEAR and OBVIOUS difference when it comes to switching between only commentary and watching the highlights.

stevereay
15-01-2008, 08:12
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by charliemfc:
Works for me.

And I forgot how much I missed the old days of commentary only

"Nii Lampty rounds the keeper"

"And scores!"

*sigh* I miss those magical days </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Me too. this is a very interesting thread. I have often consider my team give a better performance on comentary only but thoguht it was just a misconception.

Mike7077
15-01-2008, 08:14
All this talk of 'commentary only' takes me back to the days when I didn't have a computer and I used to go round to my mate's and longingly watch him play CM for hours on end.

Ahem... I was watching longingly at the game, you understand!

Then we got a computer and I got CM97/98. And I've never looked back.

gunnerfan
15-01-2008, 08:22
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">HELLO? How can you blind people continue to ignore what is written infront of you.. I will say again.

I have tried this now 5 thats (FIVE) 1, 2, 3, 4, 5!! times. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Not ignoring it. Just saying you haven't proven that the phenomenon you are seeing isn't normal variance in gameplay, which is why you DO need a large sample size.

Besides, there is no logical reason why one or another mode of viewing a match would tilt the outcome either for or against you. After all, once the match starts, there is no way for the AI to "know" which team is the human participant. This has been stated REPEATEDLY by SI staff over the years in the context of the "evil AI" myth, of which this is just one more amusing variation.

My advice - play how you want to play. If you really think setting to "Commentary Only" gives you an advantage, enjoy! But please don't insult our intelligence by trying to fob it off on us as fact.

gunnerfan
15-01-2008, 08:23
You also haven't shown that your in-game decisions are consistent across both modes.

Wakers
15-01-2008, 08:26
Try it for yourself then. Don't sit there and fob it off as being made up without trying it yourself.

It certainly is not a myth. Si at first tried to claim that there was no shots to goal issue..that was a myth until enough complained about it!

I am of course making the same decisions each time i do this, I know how to do scientific tests.

Now I will play a single game 20 times in each mode. Play it, save it, reload it, change match view, play it again. I will make the same decisions each match, where possible, and come back with the results.

gunnerfan
15-01-2008, 08:29
I am absolutely not going to waste my time on such nonsense. Let whoever came up with this silly premise go ahead and prove it if they think they can. Real proof, not a handful of tries.

IMT
15-01-2008, 09:01
I think it stands to reason that as there is a major problem with the match engine (certainly on patch 8.0.1, haven't noticed it so much going back to 8.0.0) with this 1v1 issue (and those going "it's your tactics!" till you're blue in the face, even si have admitted a problem), anyway it stands to reason if you turn off the engine and go back to commentary only this bug goes away.

Oh and I think 10 games (over a 1/4 of the season), is more than enough time to prove a point, especially as it happened in 10/10 times.

But hey, there's none so blind as them that wo't see... http://community.sigames.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

Wakers
15-01-2008, 09:02
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by IMT:
I think it stands to reason that as there is a major problem with the match engine (certainly on patch 8.0.1, haven't noticed it so much going back to 8.0.0) with this 1v1 issue (and those going "it's your tactics!" till you're blue in the face, even si have admitted a problem), anyway it stands to reason if you turn off the engine and go back to commentary only this bug goes away.

Oh and I think 10 games (over a 1/4 of the season), is more than enough time to prove a point, especially as it happened in 10/10 times.

But hey, there's none so blind as them that wo't see... http://community.sigames.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

especially when they're so bias that they are afraid to try it themselves for fear of what they may find..

Wakers
15-01-2008, 09:05
You know, I was thinking of making a journal of the procedure I've taken - when I realised there's no catagorical way that I can prove which matches I did with only commentary and which i did with highlights http://community.sigames.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_frown.gif

I could still do it, but I just know gunnerfan and his naysaying ilk will tell me there's no way to prove which is which, and they'll be right.

cudman
15-01-2008, 09:21
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by gunnerfan:
I am absolutely not going to waste my time on such nonsense. Let whoever came up with this silly premise go ahead and prove it if they think they can. Real proof, not a handful of tries. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
In fairness, in the space of a couple of days three people have posted on this thread having tried it and all produced similar results. So it may be a bit hasty to dismiss it as nonsense.

If the figures being posted are correct it would seem to make a very big difference.
Maybe in some way having highlights on makes the game generate more goal chances to fill the highlights (unlikely I know but whos to say not possible).
It would be very interesting if someone did do a thorough test on this.
Although it would seem to satisfy some people in here that test would need to be around 1000 games long!

Lisandro Lopez
15-01-2008, 10:08
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by HoPeY:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">If I play 10 games with my Blyth team using Croat's set of tactics, key highlights on, i get the bugged match engine - 25-35 shots, no goals opponent has 3 shots on target scores all 3.

If i reload, play with only commentary - not only do i have less shots, i can sore. the most amazing thing is, my striker will be one on one and shoot for the corners. This does not happen viewing highlights! </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

If you reload its not going to be the same conditions as your prevoius game. If you reload something else will happen different situations and variables come into play. Its not that simple to just say "ill try 10 games with match engine on" and then reload and "try 10 games with just commentary" do you people not understand this? Once you reload the game its not going to be the exact same game. There for this method is flawed... </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Wakers I am simply stating the facts that a small sample based on this theory isn't enough. You seem to have completely misunderstood my point which is not surprising as you were too busy shouting "HELLO" and reading what you thought I said instead of actually paying attention and reading what I actually wrote.

"At what point will some of you blind people understand this? Stop defending the game, you are ruining it for those of us that want a truly realistic and bug free game."

What a stupid thing to say, I am sorry if we disagree with what you are saying and this somehow makes us blind (which is an idiotic statement to make by yourself). I wish you could practise what you preach and instead of coming out with stupid comments calling people who disagree blind you could be reasonable and add debate to the matter instead of stupid comments. Defending the game? At what point have I defended the game? All I have done is to simply say that if you or any other person run this test method by just reloading the game a couple of times that doesn’t make it a fair or proper test, it does need a bigger sample of tests to make sure all the variables are covered. If you can not accept this then I suggest you just carry on with your moronic “HELLO’s” at the start of your posts.

Lisandro Lopez
15-01-2008, 10:14
I would also like to state that before anyone jumps on any sort of bandwagon, I am ofc curoius to see if any effect this has. However I am at this point based on logic and facts at the moment sure that either use of the match engine or commentary has no real effect over any of the "too many shots and no goal" theory.

Wakers
15-01-2008, 10:33
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by HoPeY:
I would also like to state that before anyone jumps on any sort of bandwagon, I am ofc curoius to see if any effect this has. However I am at this point based on logic and facts at the moment sure that either use of the match engine or commentary has no real effect over any of the "too many shots and no goal" theory. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

But you're still not reading the fact that i have played, over the last 2 days, 100 games to test this. At what point have i tested it enough???

Lisandro Lopez
15-01-2008, 10:45
Which is it? A while ago you said you have tried this method 20times. (10 with just commentary and 10 with match engine) Nows you have run this test 100 times over 2days? Hmmm.

Either way, I think really a full season with both methods if not longer would be a better way rather than just a sample of 10 games. I don't have all the answers I am simply just trying to help and debate on this matter. Ofc a larger sample will be needed to be well documented and as you have said it may be hard to prove your results etc Although I am sure something could be worked out.

Wakers
15-01-2008, 10:51
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by HoPeY:
Which is it? A while ago you said you have tried this method 20times. (10 with just commentary and 10 with match engine) Nows you have run this test 100 times over 2days? Hmmm.

Either way, I think really a full season with both methods if not longer would be a better way rather than just a sample of 10 games. I don't have all the answers I am simply just trying to help and debate on this matter. Ofc a larger sample will be needed to be well documented and as you have said it may be hard to prove your results etc Although I am sure something could be worked out. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Well if you go back and read my posts.. initially it was 20 games (10 games each played twice, you seem to struggle with this) and i was intrigued enough to play the set of ten games 5 times through using each method. Is there any wonder i get annoyed..http://community.sigames.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

Lisandro Lopez
15-01-2008, 11:00
There you go again making snide comments because someone is questioning your method or you. Can you actually debate without becomming annoyed? I am not narrow minded but you seem to be quite narrow minded and anyone who questions your way or simply adds to the debate you don't like you attempt to insult them, how sad.

And you actually orginally stated that you only tried it once with commentary and then once with match engine. Then you stated you have tried both ways five times. You just seem to chop and change how you gone about it, maybe you should be alot clearer of your methods in prevoius posts and for future posts. Or are you going to get annoyed with my reply and simply attempt a sly instul or call me "blind" http://community.sigames.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

bigdirtyjames
15-01-2008, 11:12
Hopey, you just answered his post in the exact same way you accused him of behaving in previous posts. The simple fact is that there are a few people who believe the same problem exists in their game - and maybe somebody (with too much time) will be able use a season-long sample to try and crack this (i've noticed no difference myself).

The guy has an opinion, and he's right to get ratty, especially since most of the replies simply dismissed him.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by HoPeY:
There you go again making snide comments because someone is questioning your method or you. Can you actually debate without becomming annoyed? I am not narrow minded but you seem to be quite narrow minded and anyone who questions your way or simply adds to the debate you don't like you attempt to insult them, how sad.

And you actually orginally stated that you only tried it once with commentary and then once with match engine. Then you stated you have tried both ways five times. You just seem to chop and change how you gone about it, maybe you should be alot clearer of your methods in prevoius posts and for future posts. Or are you going to get annoyed with my reply and simply attempt a sly instul or call me "blind" http://community.sigames.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

bytheway
15-01-2008, 11:14
some people need to lighten up. IT'S A GAME!!!!

Wakers
15-01-2008, 11:28
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by HoPeY:
There you go again making snide comments because someone is questioning your method or you. Can you actually debate without becomming annoyed? I am not narrow minded but you seem to be quite narrow minded and anyone who questions your way or simply adds to the debate you don't like you attempt to insult them, how sad.

And you actually orginally stated that you only tried it once with commentary and then once with match engine. Then you stated you have tried both ways five times. You just seem to chop and change how you gone about it, maybe you should be alot clearer of your methods in prevoius posts and for future posts. Or are you going to get annoyed with my reply and simply attempt a sly instul or call me "blind" http://community.sigames.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I'm not going to debate with you because you can't seem to follow my posts in sequence, hence its pointless. If you read my posts in order, which i assume you are doing, its quite clear how I have tried it. I've explained it in full detail twice. its not my fault now if you can't understand it.

gunnerfan
15-01-2008, 11:29
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Wakers:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by HoPeY:
I would also like to state that before anyone jumps on any sort of bandwagon, I am ofc curoius to see if any effect this has. However I am at this point based on logic and facts at the moment sure that either use of the match engine or commentary has no real effect over any of the "too many shots and no goal" theory. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

But you're still not reading the fact that i have played, over the last 2 days, 100 games to test this. At what point have i tested it enough??? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

How many seasons did you test for each category (Commentary Only and 2-D)? What were the statistical variances within each group? How did they compare between the two groups? Was there any possibility for Co-variance? How did you control for the possibility that you might react differently playing one way than another? How did the game statistics vary within and between both groups? Did you utilize statistically valid methods for computing sampling error for each group?

Cudman - the sample population is way too small to be considered anything but purely anecodotal at this point. Given the fact that the basic premise - that the AI can recognize the team of the human player and change its actions accordingly - is one that has long been debunked by SI, I remain highly skeptical until and unless statistically demonstrated.

Wakers
15-01-2008, 11:39
Ow for god's sakes its hopey's buddy.

How many seasons? none. There would be no point doing a season test because there would be too many random events to account for.

This is the last time i am explaining what I have done.

I play the same block of ten games.

I first play with highlights on. I only make subs when I have to (injuries). I don't tweak the formation, opp instructions, team talks etc.

After each game, i look at the match stats and make a note.

Upon completion of these ten games, i then close FM, reload, play the same ten games without highlights. There, simple.

I have repeated this 5 times now. Thats 100 games.

Now why on earth do you need to go into sodding co variance? do you want me to use standard deviation on the shots/goals ratio between the two groups as well?

There is no need to go into all that detail, because just by glancing at the match stats there is CLEARLY something wrong here.

Your point about the AI is rubbish. Its not about the ai at all, its about the MATCH ENGINE.

The simple conclusion from my results are this:

Without highlights: There is only the odd game, in my case 3/4 games out of 50, where you have 25 shots only to be defeated by a singular, or a couple of shots on target from the opposition.

With highlights: it happened actually 24 times, not 25 as i said earlier. Which is almost 50% of games.

Its not up to me to go into great detail testing SI's game. I've done more than i should have had to already.

Its immensely irritating to have my ideas fobbed off by people who simply think "well that sounds silly, can't be true" and won't actually test it themselves.

My sample size is 100 matches ffs!

Bongo-Bongo
15-01-2008, 11:51
Why not post some screen shots to show the difference? At present, no evidence has actually been posted to suggest otherwise, and until it is, I don't think many are going to be convinced until some actuall evidence is posted to show the results and statistics.

Wakers
15-01-2008, 11:54
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Bongo-Bongo:
Why not post some screen shots to show the difference? At present, no evidence has actually been posted to suggest otherwise, and until it is, I don't think many are going to be convinced until some actuall evidence is posted to show the results and statistics. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Posting screenshots won't help. This is why its important for people to test it themselves.

If i post a screenshot it doesn't prove that i've played it with or without highlights.

I need some other people to try doing this when they hit a patch in which they are having tons of shots but losing.

Lisandro Lopez
15-01-2008, 12:09
Ah erratic Wakers you do make me laugh.

Anyhow, If you don't back up your theory with evidence how can you expect others to see your theory or to infact belieive you. How do I or others know that you have just not simply made up your findings or parts of your findings and so on...

I have noticed no difference between using either, but I am not on the witch hunt to find a problem either tho.

If you can't back up your points with evidence then other people are right to disagree and dismiss your point of view. I have no doubt that you will attempt to fob of these questions. Perhaps you can go back to amusing shouting at the start of your posts?

Or better still just rage quit http://community.sigames.com/customicons/icon14.gif

I look forward to your findings with evidence to support it, otherwise I can't see the point in trying to debate with you. Your too wishy-washy in your posts &gt;.&lt;

Wakers
15-01-2008, 12:12
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by HoPeY:
Ah erratic Wakers you do make me laugh.

Anyhow, If you don't back up your theory with evidence how can you expect others to see your theory or to infact belieive you. How do I or others know that you have just not simply made up your findings or parts of your findings and so on...

I have noticed no difference between using either, but I am not on the witch hunt to find a problem either tho.

If you can't back up your points with evidence then other people are right to disagree and dismiss your point of view. I have no doubt that you will attempt to fob of these questions. Perhaps you can go back to amusing shouting at the start of your posts?

Or better still just rage quit http://community.sigames.com/customicons/icon14.gif

I look forward to your findings with evidence to support it, otherwise I can't see the point in trying to debate with you. Your too wishy-washy in your posts &gt;.&lt; </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Like i've said - if i post screenshots, there's no way i can show in which way i played each match. Therefore i don't see any point in it because people will just say; "how do we know which method you used for these games".

thats why i'm urging people to try it for themselves.

Lisandro Lopez
15-01-2008, 13:43
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Like i've said - if i post screenshots, there's no way i can show in which way i played each match. Therefore i don't see any point in it because people will just say; "how do we know which method you used for these games".

thats why i'm urging people to try it for themselves. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I know, I know, at the moment I too don't know a way in which you can show your evidence. *puts thinking cap on* oh its broke &gt;.&lt;

CowRonaldo
15-01-2008, 22:15
Maybe it's NOT a coincedence.

Could it be that the 2D match engine produces more shots because we're watching it? (After all 10 shots a game isn't a very entertaining 2D match).

Where in the commentary less chances are created because you're reading it. Also there could be different goals because it describes it to you and doesn't have to show it on the engine.

Kriss
15-01-2008, 22:41
Not often such a laughable theory makes a two page thread http://community.sigames.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

It's as realistic a theory as the old have to keep the mouse pointer in the commentary line one.

The ME does the same things whatever mode you watch (or don't watch) it in.

littlebeagle
16-01-2008, 03:40
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Kriss:
Not often such a laughable theory makes a two page thread http://community.sigames.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

It's as realistic a theory as the old have to keep the mouse pointer in the commentary line one.

The ME does the same things whatever mode you watch (or don't watch) it in. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Diana being murdered by the establishment is a much more laughable theory, currently millions of pounds of taxpayers money (mine included) is being spent to establish that she died as a result of a car crash as the driver was drunk.

I'd say this was a much more credible theory.

williamshankley
16-01-2008, 04:39
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Kriss:
Not often such a laughable theory makes a two page thread http://community.sigames.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

It's as realistic a theory as the old have to keep the mouse pointer in the commentary line one.

The ME does the same things whatever mode you watch (or don't watch) it in. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I agree! If anything when i try to rush through games on commentary I lose!

I do think that it doesn't matter which way you choose to watch the match though

Saintjonny
16-01-2008, 05:33
I just wish that the commentary would come up in the middle of the screen - that would be proper 'old school'

rikirani
16-01-2008, 05:59
I kinda see what wakers is saying...if the difference is so obvious, you don't need to analyse it. If I breath water instead of air, I don't need stats to tell me it sucks!

However all he is saying is that after his short tests it still seems to be holding true. Why shoot him down? He isn't claiming fact, just that it seems to be an unusual co-incidence and asking for help to verify.

I'll have a go when I get home and see if I notice any difference, if I do then MAYBE I'll do a full season test. But if the change is really obvious, I'll just play the game instead!!

Peace out dudes

Lincoln Imp2
16-01-2008, 06:04
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Kriss:
Not often such a laughable theory makes a two page thread http://community.sigames.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

It's as realistic a theory as the old have to keep the mouse pointer in the commentary line one.

The ME does the same things whatever mode you watch (or don't watch) it in. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

The crux of the issue lies in whether you believe the match engine "tweaks" certain things depending on whether you are on commentary or 2D.....in theory I can see why programmers might want the 2D view to create more chances to increase the drama....and technically it must be possible to do.
Wakers test certainly seem to show an area worth someone tresting more scientifically...even if it is not proved one way or the other as yet.
It then boils down to whether you believe SI when they say it can't happen.
mmmm...SI admits match engine is a fraud?? Does anyone really believe they would just admit even if it was true.
I may not be a conspiracy theorist but I'm not a niaive idiot either....

The Flux Capacitor
16-01-2008, 06:11
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Saintjonny:
I just wish that the commentary would come up in the middle of the screen - that would be proper 'old school' </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

http://community.sigames.com/customicons/icon14.gif

There always used to be a way of editing the commentary and I spent ages at Uni changing it say something funny. Not sure you can do that now though http://community.sigames.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_frown.gif

neilb242
16-01-2008, 08:17
a couple of things about this.

1) if you watch a game with no highlights, then after the game in which say, a sending off occured, and the media ask you to comment, you will be able to watch the incedent. so wouldn't that suggest that even though you weren't watching, the 2-d match was still happening, if you get what i mean? just because you don't watch it, it doesn't stop it from happening.

although...

2) i've seen many people on these forums suggest that the 2-d display is just a representation of the match engine. so when your forward bursts through one-on-one, all thats really happening is that your team is having a chance on goal, and that its not that different from any old shot. so if you don't watch this, would your chances and scenarios within the game be more 'realistic'?

These are just observations. feel free to moan at me if you want, i don't expect any less from some people on here.

people are saying what a waste of space discussing this, but at least its more interesting than most of the crap that appears on here.

'theories' like this often have two sets of people, those who agree and those who totally disagree. all these people dismissing it straight away, thats your choice but you aare starting to sound almost scared he is right. why not give it a go yourself? in my humble opinion, watching without the 2-d shouldn't make any difference, but even in the small sample of results provided, you have to admit the results are odd.

homerjnick
16-01-2008, 08:31
In every penalty shootout now I ALWAYS lower the speed of the Match Engine as I ALWAYS lose when it is up high.

I kid you not... http://community.sigames.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Lisandro Lopez
16-01-2008, 08:38
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by homerjnick:
In every penalty shootout now I ALWAYS lower the speed of the Match Engine as I ALWAYS lose when it is up high.

I kid you not... http://community.sigames.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Lol, I await for the flurry of posts about this one ;D

Neilb242 - I have never been in either camp, I have just debated about it. I have often stated that based on logical thinking and lack of evidence to support otherwise that I don't think the whole commentary or 2-d match engine makes any real difference. I have tried it out and I didn't really notice anything majorly different, however I also have never had the "super keeper or 30 shots on target bug" that is claimed, ofc I have had games where I cant't score for the world and then the opposition has a couple of shots and scores but this is how it sometimes happens in life, so I expect this now and then. But I have not completly dissmissed Wakers or other peoples notion that this may be a problem or a bug. But I feel personelly until evidence suggests otherwise I don't see there being a problem.

This thread is much better than other stupid flame fests such as http://community.sigames.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/521102691/m/1322037473 I am not saying this thread is perfect but there is a little bit more debate and construstice points made here then most recent threads, most especially when compared to that thread I have linked to http://community.sigames.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

x42bn6
16-01-2008, 17:16
I'm under the impression that the two engines are not the same. Obviously, I haven't done enough testing, but some of the arguments don't make sense.

A sample size of 100 is good enough to approximate some awful things. After all, a sample size of 3,000 can justify the population of China for a basic statistic (I think it was boy-girl ratio) with I think to 95% certainty.

By the way, there is no covariance between both engines, partially because unless one switches between engines during the game, the games' modes are independent (if a commentary game can affect a full match game after the game is saved and restarted, we'd have computers that can manipulate files created in the future!)

The easiest way to probably debunk this is as follows: Take control of a rubbish team and a good team, arrange a friendly, save and play, then restart, changing modes every restart. One then has a good set of data which is sensible. One could probably use FMM to give each player a fully professional attitude with no dirtiness and not injury prone with full natural fitness and stamina, no substitutions and discarding any game which ends up with a sending-off or injury.

I think that a sample size of 100 is more than enough. The test statistic for a standardised normal distribution using the Central Limit Theorem is (difference in means*100)/standard deviation - quite a large standard deviation is required to start knocking this down to accept the two modes are equivalent. But we're not talking "commentary is 20-0, full match is 1-0" here.

James.Clench
16-01-2008, 17:52
Whether you choose to watch the entire match, fly through the game with only commentery, or even go on holiday for a day after seeing the first minute, the result will be exactly the same and whats more I can prove it

A few months ago I took it upon myself to muck around with the editor. I decided to Edit all of HJK's players so they all had Dirtiness and Aggresion at 20 as well as giving them 1 for Sportsmanship, Temprement...etc basically making them ultra dirty footballers, I also made every HJK player dislike (100/100) every FC Haka player as well as disliking FC Haka (100/100). Anyway when the time came for HJK to play FC Haka, needless to say not many HJK players lasted the full 90, infact sometimes the game actually crashed, due to the fact that the match engine works out in advance that not enough HJK players (i.e. 2) would be left on the field to take the kick-off, The game never crashed before I reached the end of the first half, but when trying to start the second half it would sometimes crash, whats more, is that sometimes when I had got the second half under way I decided to make a substitution or two around the hour mark, and now and then after I had confirmed the sub's, the game crashed, which means that the Match engine works out in advance that the players i'm going to bring on will change the game in such a way so that too many men get sent off.

So basically, this proves that the game is worked out in advance up to half-time, and from half time up to full time, unless you make a substitution, and it doesn't matter whether you chose to watch the whole thing or just have the commentary.

Chas (Psyatika)
16-01-2008, 18:05
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by cafe_latte:
maybe coincidence? Hmm.. I doubt it, but I will go back to the 2D engine and test this theory.

Post results ASAP. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I have tested this. And it was a proper test using VM Ware, so i kept the same random seed each time.

You get the EXACT SAME MATCH regardless of which commentary you choose. I played a match with the 2D engine, then reloaded the virtual machine and played the same game under the commentary only. Every single line of commentary is exactly the same.

Sorry to disappoint.

Chas (Psyatika)
16-01-2008, 18:08
BTW, if you're not going to test this using VM Ware Workstation or something similar, then there is no point in testing it, or even bothering to debate. I encourage all of you to try the demo version of VM Ware Workstation and test this out for yourself.

LFCrouchinho#15
16-01-2008, 18:40
I could never play with just commentary.. watching those little, colored dots race around a football pitch is the heart and soul of FM http://community.sigames.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

arrogantio
17-01-2008, 11:19
IRL, Man Utd have a better record when I watch the full match than when I watch the highlights http://community.sigames.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Buzzur
17-01-2008, 14:40
OK, I've given this theory a try:

I've played the same game 10 times. (St. Albans vs Stevenage) 23.3.2009, Clarence Park
I've played it with exactly the same tactics and players each time. No changing of tactics or instructions during/or before the game, and no team talk. If a player on either team got a red card, i quit the game.

5 times I played it with key highlights.
5 times I played it with text only commentary.

Here are the results:

With highlights:

St.Albans v Stevenage: W 3-0, Shots/On goal: 21/12
St.Albans v Stevenage: D 1-1, Shots/On goal: 18/10
St.Albans v Stevenage: W 3-2, Shots/On goal: 15/6
St.Albans v Stevenage: W 3-0, Shots/On goal: 18/10
St.Albans v Stevenage: W 3-2, Shots/On goal: 19/8

Goals scored: 13 Shots: 91/46

Text only:

St.Albans v Stevenage: W 4-2, Shots/On goal: 22/12
St.Albans v Stevenage: W 3-0, Shots/On goal: 15/12
St.Albans v Stevenage: W 3-1, Shots/On goal: 16/9
St.Albans v Stevenage: L 2-3, Shots/On goal: 20/13
St.Albans v Stevenage: W 3-1, Shots/On goal: 18/11

Goals scored: 15 Shots: 91/57

I leave you all to conlude. Although i admit this is poor statistical material.
I really should have played the games 3-400 times, but it's far too tedious.
At least it's enough to convince me there isn't much of a difference.

Midge
17-01-2008, 14:43
I usually just play with commentry as I cant be arsed to spend 10mins on a single game. The shots per game useless as it always has been and you dont play any better.

Chas (Psyatika)
17-01-2008, 17:43
LOL...okay, i'll just keep repeating this until people start to get it.

I'll run the same test as the guy two above.

Icelandic League, i'm HK in the First Division. I'll play a match with 2D view (2D), then reload, and paly the same match with Commentary Only (CO). I will post stats that are so arbitrary, that you can't call it a coincidence. I am using VMWare.

v. Selfoss:
I saved the memory state just before submitting the team.

2D: Score 4-2, shots 21-10, pass% 60-56, tackle% 71-68. Jesper Henriksen missed a penalty in the 34th minute.
CO: Score 4-2, shots 21-10, pass% 60-56, tackle% 71-68. Jesper Henriksen missed a penalty in the 34th minute.

Just to test further, i restarted again, played the whole first half, then changed the GK at halftime. Results:
2D: Score 2-1, shots 15-8, pass% 57-56, tackle% 70-70. GKs completed 3 and 4 passes, respectively.
CO: Score 2-1, shots 15-8, pass% 57-56, tackle% 70-70. Only goal scored after HT was by Gudmunsson in the 77th. GKs completed 3 and 4 passes, respectively.

Hmmmmmmmmmmmm......of course, the sample size of my standard deviation (or whatever) is small, so it could be total rubbish http://community.sigames.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif



Next game, v. Þrottur:
Before i submit the team, i saved the memory state, then i swapped my left and right mids.

2D: Score 1-0, shots 10-4, pass% 61-59, tackle% 74-77. Jaya scored the only goal from his swapped Right Mid position in the 48th.
CO: Score 1-0, shots 10-4, pass% 61-59, tackle% 74-77. Jaya scored the only goal from his swapped Right Mid position in the 48th.

Now i reloaded again, this time i did not switch my left and right mids before submitting the team.
2D: Score 3-0, shots 14-6, pass% 72-62, tackle% 77-67. Jaya scored in the 68th this time, and Ngwenya scored twice in the first half.
CO: Score 3-0, shots 14-6, pass% 72-62, tackle% 77-67. Jaya scored in the 68th this time, and Ngwenya scored twice in the first half.


Need me to test anything else?

Chas (Psyatika)
17-01-2008, 17:45
Sorry, i should also mention that in the Selfoss match, Gudmunsson scored in the 77th in both modes. I left it out the first time.

Chas (Psyatika)
17-01-2008, 19:24
Sorry, i made a mistake...the save state was created AFTER the team submissions.

It wouldn't make sense to save the state before team submissions, because the outcome of the game hasn't been decided yet, so the "random" factors still have a chance to change the outcome, until you hit submit.

Anyway, i'm actually in the middle of making a video of the test. I'll put it on YouTube if it's under 10 minutes.

Chas (Psyatika)
17-01-2008, 20:25
Okay, YouTube completely butchered my video and made it impossible to read the text. So i also uploaded it to my own webspace.

Crappy YouTube Link (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RTHM8YAaQIE)

Full size video on RefPlanet (27 MB) (http://www.refplanet.com/stuff/FM-VMWare-Test.avi)

For those who don't go to the YouTube version, here is the description:

=============================================
THIS VIDEO IS BEST VIEWED IN FULL SCREEN!

This is a test of the game engine, to see if you get a different match outcome if you select a different view mode for the match.

I ran the test using VMWare Workstation 6, which saves the memory state of the game at any time i choose, so all of the "random seed" effects can't effect the game.

The results? See for yourself.

P.S.: I skipped all the VM Ware loading phases, because they take a couple minutes each, and the video would go over 10 minutes if i left them in. If you are still skeptical, go download the trial version of VM Ware Workstation and test this out for yourself.

P.P.S.: This is my test save game within VM Ware. I only use it for VM Ware tests. I don't support Chelsea, and i don't actually play this save seriously. Why would i play FM on a virtual machine when i could just play it under my normal operating system? http://community.sigames.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif
=============================================

gunnerfan
17-01-2008, 21:03
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Chas (Psyatika):
LOL...okay, i'll just keep repeating this until people start to get it.

I'll run the same test as the guy two above.

Icelandic League, i'm HK in the First Division. I'll play a match with 2D view (2D), then reload, and paly the same match with Commentary Only (CO). I will post stats that are so arbitrary, that you can't call it a coincidence. I am using VMWare.

v. Selfoss:
I saved the memory state just before submitting the team.

2D: Score 4-2, shots 21-10, pass% 60-56, tackle% 71-68. Jesper Henriksen missed a penalty in the 34th minute.
CO: Score 4-2, shots 21-10, pass% 60-56, tackle% 71-68. Jesper Henriksen missed a penalty in the 34th minute.

Just to test further, i restarted again, played the whole first half, then changed the GK at halftime. Results:
2D: Score 2-1, shots 15-8, pass% 57-56, tackle% 70-70. GKs completed 3 and 4 passes, respectively.
CO: Score 2-1, shots 15-8, pass% 57-56, tackle% 70-70. Only goal scored after HT was by Gudmunsson in the 77th. GKs completed 3 and 4 passes, respectively.

Hmmmmmmmmmmmm......of course, the sample size of my standard deviation (or whatever) is small, so it could be total rubbish http://community.sigames.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif



Next game, v. Þrottur:
Before i submit the team, i saved the memory state, then i swapped my left and right mids.

2D: Score 1-0, shots 10-4, pass% 61-59, tackle% 74-77. Jaya scored the only goal from his swapped Right Mid position in the 48th.
CO: Score 1-0, shots 10-4, pass% 61-59, tackle% 74-77. Jaya scored the only goal from his swapped Right Mid position in the 48th.

Now i reloaded again, this time i did not switch my left and right mids before submitting the team.
2D: Score 3-0, shots 14-6, pass% 72-62, tackle% 77-67. Jaya scored in the 68th this time, and Ngwenya scored twice in the first half.
CO: Score 3-0, shots 14-6, pass% 72-62, tackle% 77-67. Jaya scored in the 68th this time, and Ngwenya scored twice in the first half.


Need me to test anything else? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

AH! But you forget that the Evil AI compensates and reverts to unaltered processing when it detects a test environment. http://community.sigames.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_eek.gif

Chas (Psyatika)
17-01-2008, 21:49
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by gunnerfan:
AH! But you forget that the Evil AI compensates and reverts to unaltered processing when it detects a test environment. http://community.sigames.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_eek.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

What? lol http://community.sigames.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif