We could make Football Manager better, If SI would only listen.

What follows will be quite a long post, and is an idea I had last night whilst reading through the many threads on here complaining about problems with the new FM09 demo

If you would be interested in making FM a better game on release day, then please read on (especially for the attention of SI), if you want to moan and FM bash, then do it on another thread!....

The problem.

On Saturday night, the demo for FM09 was released and was met with mixed opinion.

Many players vowed that due to the shocking quality of the game, they would not be buying it when it is released on 14th November. Other players said that it was great and exactly what they had been expecting.

Many players also have said that the game is good and has potential to be great, but all seem to be of the opinion that (once again) the game has been declared fit for release despite some glaring errors and bugs which baffled many of us as to how the testing team have missed them.

Just a few examples:

Players are picking up FAR too many injuries which are for months at a time.

Player condition seems impossible to get to 100%, even with early substitution.

Has anybody seen a GK save a penalty that wasn't straight at him? Penalty shoot-outs are ending in ridiculous score lines like 13-12 and 28-27, and this is simply because the final penalty taker blasted the ball over/wide. The GK simply doesn't move.

(I'll just quote "man of steel" for this one):

I have a decent spec PC; 2GB Ram, 2Ghz AMD Athlon, ATI Radeon graphics card. But the 3D representation of the match is woefully bad. Jerky, choppy, poor and unrealistic animation. It runs nothing like the clips SI have released over the last couple of weeks, obviously on their high-end machines. Ok, so that's not the end of the world. After all, they kindly left in the 2D option. But that is also outrageously bad! why? it's also jerky, juddery and hard to follow any kind of pattern of play. How come the 2D, that is easy on the processor, game engine can suddenly go from being smooth on FM07, to being still fairly good on FM08, to being a complete mess on FM09??? I really cannot understand that. I can handle 3D being in a bit of a state because it's new, but 2D!??

PaulC himself agreed this doesn't make sense ^^^

There is an option to disable 3D in the game, but a lot of people can't even launch the game in order to disable this, meaning they can't play FM09 at all (It's my opinion that the game should have also been tested on an "average spec" PC, so that SI would at least have had some idea of the trouble people with that sort of set-up would experience).

There's no need for me to list anything else here, as there are more than enough threads covering the multitude of problems on the demo, you only need to visit the bugs forum, but it is genuinely incredible that a dedicated testing team either missed these sorts of things, or knew about them and declared the game good to go anyway....

A possible future solution?...

Obviously, the following idea will be baulked at by SI, but at least read ALL of it before judging/simply dismissing!...

The forums regulars are the ones who are finding these bugs, we are finding them sometimes within a couple of minutes of game play (How long do the testing team have?).

My idea is this: Why don't SI release a "Beta Demo" to forum users? (bare with me!)

Obviously you can't just make the game public as there are competitors watching and listening, but there must be some way around that?

How may of the forums regulars would jump at the chance to test an early demo and give feedback on problems?

Within an hour of the FM09 demo being released on the forums, the place was swamped with threads complaining about the problems people had found.

If a beta demo was released a few weeks beforehand to a select (large - to get a better cross-section) group of forum regulars, we could report back on our findings, and then SI would have some time to fix these issues before the game goes "Gold".

At the minute we are talking about a game release-day patch, whereas if a beta demo had been released to a large group of voluntary (who wouldn't?) testers, we would be talking about a demo which is working by release day which would have avoided the injury and condition problem as well as a host of other things.

It's fairly obvious that SI need to expand their testing team, and who better to test a new game than the very people who play FM almost 24/7/365? (Us).

Footnotes.

I'm well aware that making Football Manager is a year-round, and extremely demanding job.

I fully appreciate the amount of work SI do, I am a Football Manager lover and I always will be.

From what I'm reading here, this problem of buggy releases is an annual thing and is beginning to frustrate more and more players of the game. I think it's about time something changed, and I believe I make a very valid point.

A positive response would be nice, as I'm only doing what the forums are here for us all to do, that is: make Football Manager better.

Aja.

PS - in the title I said "If SI would only listen" - I did of course mean to this thread and my idea, I'm aware they do listen to us!

They have to read 1000 threads with the same issues at the moment.

Pretty much as Kubi says, you could've listened to the community yourself and posted in one of the other threads

They have to read 1000 threads with the same issues at the moment.

I'm aware of that, and said so in my OP.

The thread I've started is about the idea of expanding the testing team to US, to avoid the 1000's of threads.

There was a beta demo the year before last, if I remember correctly, and there was some disaster that has prohibited SI from feeling willing to do one again. SI have, if I remember correctly, one of the largest testing teams in the industry, but still cannot test for every possible user setup.

If you have graphics problems, please head over to the bugs forums and add your system specs and issues to the threads already established.

SI are collating data and investigating these issues as we speak.

They are listening, im sure everyone would rather they were busy coding than answering threads such as this for the 89th time.

The idea of expanding the testing team has been tried, and because some users decided to pirate the game to the general public it was dissolved as an idea, because SI were betrayed.

There are a behind the scenes testing team, but they are only trusted members. A public beta or a large private beta are very unlikely now.

Good post.

Lots of good points too.

I beleive a beta demo was released a few games back. I also beleive there was a very good reason why SI said they won't do that again but this escapes me at the moment.

The injurys and condition problems will, hopefully, be fixed with the release day patch.

I'm surprised to hear that PC won't run the 3d.

I have an older machine, fortunatly, the spec is ok and I have all the important pixel shaders. The 3d match engine takes too long to load though and I agree, is a bit jerky.

I'm still undecided on whether I'll use 3d when I buy the game.

I find it tricky to see if my tactics are working or not.

There was a beta demo the year before last, if I remember correctly, and there was some disaster that has prohibited SI from feeling willing to do one again. SI have, if I remember correctly, one of the largest testing teams in the industry, but still cannot test for every possible user setup.

I'm sure they do, but there are still some incredible errors that their testing team miss.

I'm now hoping this thread doesn't descend into a "flame the OP for repetition" opportunity....

*Also - the idea of piracy never occurred to me. Damn. It's guaranteed to happen isn't it?

There was a beta demo the year before last, if I remember correctly, and there was some disaster that has prohibited SI from feeling willing to do one again.

One (or more) of the self-professed 'loyal FM players' that were included in the beta demo leaked the code. I can't see SI wanting to try it again anytime soon, so blame those who betrayed SI's trust for there not being an open beta test, not SI.

There was a beta demo the year before last, if I remember correctly, and there was some disaster that has prohibited SI from feeling willing to do one again. SI have, if I remember correctly, one of the largest testing teams in the industry, but still cannot test for every possible user setup.

I think this version will be the best yet once patched but I still can't understand how glaring errors like the player condition problem getting through testing.

Kind of similar to the closing down bug we had this time last year.

One (or more) of the self-professed 'loyal FM players' that were included in the beta demo leaked the code. I can't see SI wanting to try it again anytime soon, so blame those who betrayed SI's trust for there not being an open beta test, not SI.

I understand Glyn.

It's a damned shame really.

On that basis, an open beta test is a non-starter isn't it?

Piracy is rife nowadays

I was only trying to help

On that basis, an open beta test is a non-starter isn't it?

I'm not part of SI, so I can't speak for them. However, I don't think it's very likely anytime in the near future, or at least until there's some way of making any public beta code impervious to being leaked.

I'm not part of SI, so I can't speak for them. However, I don't think it's very likely anytime in the near future, or at least until there's some way of making any public beta code impervious to being leaked.

I would imagine you're spot on there.

Don't know why I never thought of that to begin with tbh... :o

Glyn (or any moderator), could you maybe add: "(to this idea)" on to the thread title?

It actually looks quite cheeky otherwise, and that's not my intention mate....

There WAS an invite beta demo that SI did for FM08 but this was leaked by ONE user and so it got canned.

You were a member of a hidden section on this forums where forum beta testers could post the bugs that would get fixed before the demo was released to the public.

That one idiot who leaked it probably stopped the beta testing by the public this year hence why we have the same bugs in the demo.

What I would say to SI is release a beta demo like before to selected forum members but make them authenticate so you have their IP and Name and perhaps a unique ID in their beta demo so if it did get leaked again then you could catch them!

Public Beta demo is the only way forward to assist SI!

I can't even load the demo on my PC at work. FM08 worked fine so i can only assume it's because of the 3D match engine.

There WAS an invite beta demo that SI did for FM08 but this was leaked by ONE user and so it got canned.

Public Beta demo is the only way forward to assist SI!

FM08 was full of bugs so it is not the solution. The problem is not that the bugs are not spotted but that they are not fixed. The games are being released before they are finished. SI seriously need to think about skipping a release and spending six months sorting it out.

There already is a beta version that goes out to selected forum users

I was unaware of that Ter, thanks.

I might be missing something but how can a public beta be leaked? Surely a public beta is released to the general public, who exactly is this being leaked to?

I undertand the system of closed beta testing that has existed for years as I was part of the programme for a good while, I just understand this thing about nor releasing a beta to the community at large for fear it gets leaked.

If SI does have one of the largest testing teams, and they do have beta-demos, the question still goes back to how is it possible they miss such obvious bugs. I think the only logical answer is, they didn't, as it's just not possible. If only 5 people tested the game 1 (in-game) month they would see it.

SI like any other company is about money, if they suddenly start delaying the game, they lose money, if they got alot of negative feedback from testers and had to redo portions of the game they lose money.

People still buy the game with bugs, and since they do SI can just make some patches and usually sometime after new-year one can play a decent career-game with a decent working game. It will only stop when people stop buying products who aren't ready out-of-the-box, and by doing so letting the manufacturer get away with it. Who here would buy a new car with 3 tires for the full price?

I might be missing something but how can a public beta be leaked? Surely a public beta is released to the general public, who exactly is this being leaked to?

I undertand the system of closed beta testing that has existed for years as I was part of the programme for a good while, I just understand this thing about nor releasing a beta to the community at large for fear it gets leaked.

It was an invite only beta test....

I dont think SI have testers. And if a beta version goes out to forum users it's obviously to those who have no idea about ascertaining problems.

There already is a beta version that goes out to selected forum users

perhaps you should select those people more carefully because either they aren't effective or that their concerns are not being listened to

It's not like we know how many errors were fixed thanks to the beta version, so you can't really make a comment like that.

What is clear is that a couple of glaring ones are still there, but it's impossible to gauge percentages via the forum so it's difficult to know how serious some of the problems are.

I dont think SI have testers. And if a beta version goes out to forum users it's obviously to those who have no idea about ascertaining problems.

How do you know they don't find a lot of problems that are fixed before the demo is released?

Every time SI make changes, new bugs often appear, and are fixed. When the game comes out no one realises just how many bugs were spotted and fixed, and how many found that SI didn't have time to fix (the game would never be out otherwise).

There are also bugs that appear at the last minute, its not a case of finding all the bugs, fix them and job done.

We're very much in a "damned if we do, and damned if we don't" situation, the same way as we are with the demo release where a really tiny proportion of people who have downloaded the demo are having issues getting it up and running, yet looking at these forums you'd think it was like the sky had fallen in.

Same as when Half Life 2 was released.

not knowing what kind of machine they have, or the equipment inside the machine.

I think that might also play its part into the issue. Lack of the most basic of knowledge. Maybe a sticky would help that makes people familiar with the absolute basics - checking your system's actual specs, updating drivers, that sort of thing. You can't blame people for not being tech savy. But the kind of users who assume their rig is just fine for the simple reason they just bought it a couple of minutes down memory lane appears to be pretty high in threads that demand your heads on pikes, tarred and feathered for all to see. Yarr.

But then you'd have to make sure everybody bothers to read that sticky somehow.. on a second thought: fuggett about it.

Its a good thought, Wee Aja, and something I would like to see, but as mentioned its fraught with difficulties.

At the end of the day you can't please everyone and like Miles said, you're damned if you do and damned if you don't sometimes. I myself had troubles getting the game to start earlier, but I didn't blow my top because I appreciate what its like. There are always teething problems when a new game is due to be released and its magnified when its such a popular series like FM. With betas/demos you can't expect a flawless game, the whole point is to sample it and give feedback on where there are bugs and as a result it'll be improved because the developers listen to helpful and constructive opinions. Unfortunately some people go the other way, expect perfection and throw their toys out of the pram, but it can't be helped, its the way the world is.

its a bit different when teething problems are the same as the problems reported in the last 4 versions. Its also not acceptable to have a game go gold with so many flaws it requires a day 1 patch

There already is a beta version that goes out to selected forum users

So it's their fault!!!??

Good thread. I hear what you are trying to say and think I am in the minority. At the moment there are 1000s of threads so to read them all they would need an entire department! Not cost effective as most are not really helpful.

It would be a good idea if they could select more independent people on here (or anywhere) to play it first. I'm a big fan and am sure we'll get there but if the little things, especially injuries, were nipped in the bud then the entire forum would not have turned anti SI and FM!!

The only thing that will solve that is no demo and that would be a shame.

Seriously all this negative threads get me so depressing, its amazing how many people are screaming "SORT IT OUT" and "UNPLAYABLE"....

This length of discussion been around for years (exploded last year), but fact is that no single software is bugfree. Look at the average pc game being released, most of them get a patch either on release day or in the week afterwards.... Red Alert 3 for example got 2 patches in the 2 days following its release.... This has nothing to do with the testing imo, it has to do with people demanding way too much.

And yes, i am enjoying the demo very much.

Seriously all this negative threads get me so depressing

This was not intended to be a negative thread.

I am also enjoying the demo very much, and really looking forward to my full game arriving.

My opening post was simply detailing an idea I had which, in my opinion, might have been beneficial to FM as a whole, especially on the release of a new demo.

I specifically asked people not to moan and FM-Bash on this thread.

Alas, now I realise that due to the difficulties faced with an idea such as mine, it is a non-starter.

This was not intended to be a negative thread.

I am also enjoying the demo very much, and really looking forward to my full game arriving.

My opening post was simply detailing an idea I had which, in my opinion, might have been beneficial to FM as a whole, especially on the release of a new demo.

I specifically asked people not to moan and FM-Bash on this thread.

Alas, now I realise that due to the difficulties faced with an idea such as mine, it is a non-starter.

Yeah i know that this isnt a negative thread im just expressing my main opinion. I'm not someone who posts in every negative thread as "counterpart", just because people mostly don't really know what they are talking about .

So sorry that i posted it in ur thread haha .

its a bit different when teething problems are the same as the problems reported in the last 4 versions. Its also not acceptable to have a game go gold with so many flaws it requires a day 1 patch

Is the patch going to cost extra? No.

Games that are released and never require an update or two are extremely rare, on any platform. Take Call of Duty 4 as an example, it won Game of the Year for 2007 and over ten million copies have been sold. Its a brilliant game, but it still needed a few updates to remove bugs which crept through beta testing. I'm fine with patches, its no inconvience. I'm glad SI listen and look to update the game as much as they can based on feedback from players. Perish the thought that they would be like other companies - thank God I didn't buy R6V:2 because that was a disaster.

No immediate need to release that beta to selected users, what it's needed is to teach the testing team how to fish.

Previous years it has been the same, a group of forum users quickly and within, may I risk, minutes have found issues within the game, it's obvious that they have established tests or routines to perform this, they might know from past experiences what is or what areas could be faulty.

This is the knowledge they could transmit to SI's testing team, a simple post sharing this routines or mechanisms.

I remember there being a public beta demo a few years back. It was then followed with a gold demo nearer release day. Was there a problem with that, since it was only a one time occurrence?

perhaps you should select those people more carefully because either they aren't effective or that their concerns are not being listened to

This is quite possibly the post of the day - It's not exactly rocket science to understand that these so called testers have failed. I've not even got to the start of the season yet I've 8 players with injuries of over a month. I couldn't type in my name without each letter being repeated.

Saying all that though, I quite like the 3d

The biggest downer is the icon/favourite personnel/legend listings - this has been messed up completely due to a lack of understanding from the researchers

I dont think SI have testers. And if a beta version goes out to forum users it's obviously to those who have no idea about ascertaining problems.

Of course SI have testers

Don't forget that the testers don't have the final say on what gets fixed and what doesn't, it's possible all of these issues were found during testing and it was decided that, rather than delay the demo and the final release date too much, they would release the demo with these issues still present with a view to getting a patch out asap for the full game. To be fair, I've yet to see a major issue posted, the problem of people not being able to launch the game or run 3D properly is simply down to their machines. My PC is 4 years old, not duel core, and has only been upgraded with anything other than a graphics card that I payed £60 for on ebay. That's not a lot to spend in 4 years and my PC is fine. It's almost 2009 now so to be fair people who want to play games on their PC should have a decent processor and graphics card, that's all you need for FM and they certainly don't have to be top of the range.

But the amount of injuries should have been picked up. The sensitivity of the keyboard should have been picked up.

Remember - it is not two kids sat in a room producing a quality game anymore - it is a multi million pound operation at the helm now.

If you read my post above you'll see that what I'm saying is that it's probable that these things were picked up, but were deemed less important that other bugs that needed to fixed before the demo was released and the full game went into production.

Without knowing what goes on in the develpment studio it's just silly to start claiming that the testers are useless and haven't done their job properly.

And just to point out, I've so far not had too much of a problem with injuries 6 games into the league season. At some points during pre-season I had a few players out with injuries and a fair few players either at or travelling to the olympics. Because the symbols for injuries, international duty and travelling are all red, on first glance it looked like half my team was out injured when in fact that wasn't actually the case.

i dont get how you can run a beta version for FML and not FM ? you can control the amount of beta testers VIA having an account and password systemer similar to FML to avoid leaks and you would iron out many bugs, seems pretty simple to me,

As someone said earlier sometimes fixing one problem causes another. And some of these bugs may just be limited to the demo code. There's a hell of a lot going on that we don't know about and a lot of people thinking that they know more than they do.