SI out of touch with the average FM fan?

Having observed many of the complaints made these last days, I have to say that to me most seem to be caused by SI no longer being in touch with a large part of their customers.

It has often been seen that as a company grows larger and larger, the people involved starts to forget why they ever became successful in the first place. In the case of SI, most of the people involved have always more or less represented the same group of people as the potential customers. Because of that, things that inside SI towers were considered good ideas or good additions to the game, were also appreciated by the fans.

Sadly that seems to no longer be the case. A few decisions regarding FM09 seem to be based on a lack of knowledge about the average FM gamer.

Perhaps most importantly SI seems to have completely overestimated the computer specifications of a very large group of their customers. I think that FM has always appealed to a different group of people than many other games. Lots of loyal FM fans are not (and have never been) "hardcore gamers", so because of the increased hardware requirements they are now finding it impossible to play this newest installment of the game.

Furthermore SI seems to have completely underestimated the number of loyal fans who do not want to see SI follow EA down the dark road of restricting honest customers with DRM.

The complaints about the increased (realistic?) number of injuries seen in the demo, also seems to indicate that SI's attempt to keep an acceptable balance between "realism" and "fun", might no longer be completely in sync with what a majority of the fans want. I have seen that a patch will be released to slightly address the length of some of these injuries though.

So, I guess my suggestion for SI is to, at least for a while, stop spending time on figuring out even more ways to make money - like the ingame advertisements in FM09, and start spending more time on understanding your customers.

Just my opinion, so feel free to disagree

Good point about the hardcore gamers, everyone I know has a 360 or PS3 to play games on, the only game we ever play on PC is FM, so why are they going to spend £70 (min) on a new graphics to play this horse *****.

Whilst I am initially still against DRM, the form that SI is using, by all accounts, is nowhere near as harsh as that used by EA, unfortunatley it seems a lot of companies are going this way and we are probably going to have to get used to it.

I am however a little surprised that SI have introduced the 3D match engine so soon, as it wasn't that long ago when they were saying that it wasn't something they would introduce, and that if we wanted 3D graphics then to go else where, however times change and now a new breed of gamers have arrived and have been screaming for a 3D engine and so SI have delivered, but I do feel they have dropped the ball somewhat by making the game require a high end machine to play the match engine, I have read countless opinions on people who play FM on their laptop on the way to work, or while they are on business trips etc, and even people who only own laptops, a lot of those have now been alienated because their systems no longer meet the required specifications, where as before you could easily get away with a system that is 4-5 years old, now you are required to have a system with a half decent graphics card to play this game at it's best.

I've played the demo, and whilst I enjoyed the 'guts' of the game, I felt the 3D match engine was pretty poor tbh especially as SI claim to have been working on it for 3 years I'd expect it to be a lot less jittery and a lot smoother. Although I will give them credit for Elevated view which to be honest is very, very good indeed.

This is really my only criticism of the game, I accept that there a bugs in the game which we have been told will be rectified on release day, fair enough, but I can't quite help that SI has pandered to a select few and included the 3D match engine, especially when a lot of the hard core gamers did not want it included. I can only feel the reason why SI included the 3D match engine this year was because a rival company (I think you know who I mean) have included a 3D match engine in their game, up until then there was absolutely no sign of SI going 3D.

If I am being overly critical, then I apologize I'm just airing my views

They're just trying something new. Maybe in 2 or 3 years the 3D engine will be alot better and run smoothly in most computers.

Yes but who is gonna pay good money so they can experiment with this *****.

Registering to continually call the game ****, wp. You can go back to 2d can you not?

Games are just that are games and they need to bring FM into the 21st century and that means good graphics with good game play and that is the way it is heading like it or not.

Anyone who is considering buying a new laptop or desktop make sure it has plaenty of ram and a good graphics card plain and simple.

i agree with you to an extent. i play games on my ps2 still and the only game i play in my laptop is FM. it seems that this years FM is more available to those who plays lots of pc games and those who dont are going to be missing out because they use their computers for work instead of games.

ive read people sayin just buy a new pc. well thats a great idea, but id rather spend all that money on a games console where i can play a wider range of games than just FM (for my personal taste).

Dude, if you have a PC that can't handle the meager (although appreciated and liked [by me]) 3d graphics for FM09, you're computer is an embarrassment. You don't need the graphic power to run Crysis, you need an older vid card that you can by for $30 or $40 on ebay.

SI and their producers have been in touch with us and answered our questions in nearly every aspect, so how are they out of touch??

I find the match engine not choppy at all from the elevated view.

Registering to continually call the game ****, wp. You can go back to 2d can you not?

please explain to me how that is a solution

It was a reply to qwerty who said you had to spend another £70 to play it

my apologies. a graphics card to run 09 smoothly would only cost £30 tops anyway

Both had a couple of misunderstandings in them two threads then WS:D Can see why the posts raised them reactions with some of the posts made today by certain people though.

If i could get a Graphics card then i would say my opinion....BTW how do you get a Graphics card....?

It must be hard for them to please everyone. Do they implement 90% of the things that people cry out for each year? If they do people will say it is too in depth and takes the fun out of the game.

If they hardly implement any changes every year they roll the game out but simply concentrate on improving the important areas like the match engine, people will say they are buying the same game as last year because the changes (improvements) made are not visualized.

I fall under the last category, I want them too improve areas like the match engine and tactics etc rather than do 3D match engines and media stuff. The hardcore fans who want total realism are choking the fun out of the game. If the hardcore users want boot boys implemented and you can bollock them for not cleaning your boots properly then they tend to get it in the future at some point.

Me and my friends call the game Football Janitor now as it is too far gone with it's in depth dross that most people don't have time to bother with, making the game much like a job. You could choose to ignore all the gubbings of the game but it is so essential that you deal with it nowadays that it's hard to keep your job otherwise.

I'm willing to bet SI have a much better idea of what the 'average FM fan' is than anyone in this thread does.

I love the new game, but if it was the first FM I ever picked up I think I would be totally lost in the increasing complexity of it.

SI are so out of touch with the fans that they implemented a 3D match engine, even though they didn't really want to because it would ruin the game, because the fans wanted it. Now that the 3D doesn't look like FIFA 09, which is a ridiculous thing to expect, it's SI's fault.

Hmm.

Not because the fans wanted the 3D, because a rival game was implementing it their hand was forced.

Registering to continually call the game ****, wp. You can go back to 2d can you not?

If i could get a Graphics card then i would say my opinion....BTW how do you get a Graphics card....?

you buy one for your computer from somewhere like ebuyer.com

Mike7077 - Despite us being the average FM fans?

Mike7077 - Despite us being the average FM fans?

So SI are out of touch with all of us? Even though we're all completely different too each other. They're not out of touch with me.

Not because the fans wanted the 3D, because a rival game was implementing it their hand was forced.

CM was still poor with the engine and always would've been. CM are not a rival because they are just not good enough. SI always do what they feel is best for the game and what the fans want. FIFA has life management, CM has prozone, FM does not. Why? Because that's not what they want in their game and is not part of their vision, and it also isn't what the majority of the fans want.

So SI are out of touch with all of us? Even though we're all completely different too each other. They're not out of touch with me.

I was refering to the point that SI know more what the "average fan" want than those in this thread. Being average fans your statement was just not true.

Good point about the hardcore gamers, everyone I know has a 360 or PS3 to play games on, the only game we ever play on PC is FM, so why are they going to spend £70 (min) on a new graphics to play this horse *****.

With £70, you could buy 3 graphics card that could play FM smoothly.

I was refering to the point that SI know more what the "average fan" want than those in this thread. Being average fans your statement was just not true.

I said they know more about what the average fan is.

Doesn't matter how crap CM is, people would have been intrigued enough to buy it simply for the 3D match engine, it would have had something that FM did not which is therefore a good reason to buy CM over FM. I agree it's dross but not everyone knows the history and only see whats on the box specs. 1 would say 3D engine and the other would have said 2D.

Ok fair point.

I would completely disagree with the statement you made at the top. The DRM has been brought in because piracy takes away so much of their funding for future versions.

The graphics are hardly hardcore either, You could buy a £30 graphics card that will play the game completely fine. The one I'm using cost me £40 a month ago and runs it perfectly.

Doesn't matter how crap CM is, people would have been intrigued enough to buy it simply for the 3D match engine, it would have had something that FM did not which is therefore a good reason to buy CM over FM. I agree it's dross...

The people who were intrigued enough to buy CM for its 3D, which was already always available in LMA and FIFA anyway, would then play CM and mostly see that it was terrible, and then try out FM.

In the end, it's the quality that matters. FM didn't have 2D up until now and it broke records and topped sales charts like a PC Grand Theft Auto. It's not like SI had anything to fear from CM doing something that had already been done years earlier by two other rivals who are just as big.

What's the problem here? You can still use the 2D engine, you know. They have improved it -- if you're not happy don't buy it. Simple.

Does LMA and FIFA use the same technology as what this FM09 uses?

Is the FM09 technology the same as the CM09 technology?

It's easy to get the impression that SI are chasing new customers to the detriment of existing ones, particularly with the bizarre rationalisation for removing the match speed/highlight speed slider separation, which I'm sure is something a lot of 'core' FM players will miss. However, this 3D bashing is nonsense. FM09 still only requires a modestly specced PC, even with 3D running, and you can stick with 2D anyway if you want or need to. The 3D view is not just bells and whistles for superficial gamers used to XBOX 360 graphics, it's a valuable tool for monitoring the efficacy of your tactics and those of your opponent.

Errrr, SI are a department of Sega, you know that company that make games?

I think some of the customers have lost touch with SI personally.

Sega's market research staff alone outnumber SI by dozens to one.

I would completely disagree with the statement you made at the top. The DRM has been brought in because piracy takes away so much of their funding for future versions.

The graphics are hardly hardcore either, You could buy a £30 graphics card that will play the game completely fine. The one I'm using cost me £40 a month ago and runs it perfectly.

And you suggest people buy a graphics card just to play one game? Also, 40 pounds may not be a lot to you, but I can guarantee you that 40 € is a lot for the average Portuguese. Most of my savings go to buy FM each year, now I'll need to spend them on a graphics card and have nothing left for the actual game.

Perhaps most importantly SI seems to have completely overestimated the computer specifications of a very large group of their customers. I think that FM has always appealed to a different group of people than many other games. Lots of loyal FM fans are not (and have never been) "hardcore gamers", so because of the increased hardware requirements they are now finding it impossible to play this newest installment of the game.

Does LMA and FIFA use the same technology as what this FM09 uses?

Is the FM09 technology the same as the CM09 technology?

The buyers don't give a shizzle. If they're buying CM just because it has a match engine, they're buying it just because it has a match engine.

The buyers don't give a shizzle. If they're buying CM just because it has a match engine, they're buying it just because it has a match engine.

Makes no sense.

LMA and FIFA manager clearly doesn't use the technology used in the new FM09.

Up until last year both CM and FM didn't have 3D, when SI heard CM were running with the new technology they had to jump on board regardless of how good it looked or was implemented, it's that simple.

I can only feel the reason why SI included the 3D match engine this year was because a rival company (I think you know who I mean) have included a 3D match engine in their game, up until then there was absolutely no sign of SI going 3D.

hehe i believe you might be onto something. i have a hard time believing that that 3d engine took 3 years of work, especially considering that the general feel it produces is that its at least 5-10 years old. it is easy to get the idea that its just something they programmed in haste when they heard that the "rival" was getting 3d engine

on a more serious note if they had to take something from the rival i'd rather it was that prozone thingy for deep analysis of the game that "rival" 08 had, which was extremely useful thingy or perhaps "borrowing" a thing or two from the "rival"'s training system which i personally thought was superior to fm's

Good point about the hardcore gamers, everyone I know has a 360 or PS3 to play games on, the only game we ever play on PC is FM, so why are they going to spend £70 (min) on a new graphics to play this horse *****.

£70 minimum on a new graphics card? Are you insane? It will cost you £20-30 for a card required to play Football Manager, stop listening to ********, the graphics card required is probably 5 years old. Is it SI Games problem than you haven't bothered to update your computer with the times?

SI are so out of touch with the fans that they implemented a 3D match engine, even though they didn't really want to because it would ruin the game, because the fans wanted it. Now that the 3D doesn't look like FIFA 09, which is a ridiculous thing to expect, it's SI's fault.

Hmm.

I wrote in a different post somewhere that SI seems to be busier trying to gain new customers than to try and keep the loyal long term fans. That's usually a bad business plan, since a newly attracted customer might buy the game just that one time, whereas by keeping a loyal fan, you'll have a guaranteed sale for years to come.

I haven't heard a lot of fans demanding a 3D view of the matches, so I don't think it was necessary at this time, especially since it seems to prevent a lot of loyal fans from playing the game. As already mentioned in this thread, certain other manager games already have a 3D view, so I do suspect it's more an attempt to "steal" a few customers from the competitors.

Personally I have no problems running the 3D view, and I kind of like it, but if it means losing lots of existing customer then I still think it's a bad move by SI - A bad move that might be caused by SI no longer being aware of who their customers are, and what they want in the game.

Regardless of whether or not I'm right, I do feel that SI might be heading in a wrong direction. So I felt that this could be an interesting discussion, and looking at the answers so far, it does seem to be.

What's the problem here? You can still use the 2D engine, you know. They have improved it -- if you're not happy don't buy it. Simple.

But half of us can't get it to open in the first place...

My graphics card is just below the minimum specs, yet some people are saying that theirs is really rubbish but they're not only getting the game open, it's also running smoothly.

We were led to believe that the game would still work in 2d if our specs were not good enough to handle 3d but sadly the new added 3d format doesnt allow computers that dont have the correct spec to even start the game.

Makes no sense.

Think harder?

LMA and FIFA manager clearly doesn't use the technology used in the new FM09.

Irrelevant according to this argument.

Up until last year both CM and FM didn't have 3D, when SI heard CM were running with the new technology they had to jump on board regardless of how good it looked or was implemented, it's that simple.

FM have been working on this 3D for a few years now, so there goes that argument.

The buyers don't give a shizzle. If they're buying CM just because it has a match engine, they're buying it just because it has a match engine.

How does that sentence make sense? Read it properly you wrote it.

The LMA and FIFA answer was because someone posted that other games had already got 3D in their games before FM and CM had it. I was pointing out it wasn't the same 3D as what CM and FM are now using.

And FM working on it is wrong, it is somebody else's technology not theirs, they have been waiting until it was up to speed and looked half way decent when implemented in their game.

£70 minimum on a new graphics card? Are you insane? It will cost you £20-30 for a card required to play Football Manager, stop listening to ********, the graphics card required is probably 5 years old. Is it SI Games problem than you haven't bothered to update your computer with the times?

well said mate, people are making out that their pc needs the same specs as to run COD World At War, get a grip its not. The only problem here is half the end users.

The buyers don't give a shizzle. If they're buying CM just because it has a match engine, they're buying it just because it has a match engine.

How does that sentence make sense? Read it properly you wrote it.

Not my problem if you don't understand basic English, kid.

The LMA and FIFA answer was because someone posted that other games had already got 3D in their games before FM and CM had it. I was pointing out it wasn't the same 3D as what CM and FM are now using.

Which is irrelevant. 3D looks like 3D to the buyer, if they're buying CM for the 3D liek you said then that's what they're buying it for.

And FM working on it is wrong, it is somebody else's technology not theirs, they have been waiting until it was up to speed and looked half way decent when implemented in their game.

Now THAT makes no sense. Obviously you know so much more about what's REALLY going on behind the scenes than everyone else...

SI are lying to us all!

We were led to believe that the game would still work in 2d if our specs were not good enough to handle 3d but sadly the new added 3d format doesnt allow computers that dont have the correct spec to even start the game.

when i turned off 3d in my preferences the entire process of starting the match and stuff was quicker. i mean 2d is faster than 3d even with the loading of the graphics engine but the gain in speed is even greater if one turns off loading of 3d in properties.

perhaps if you were to find the configuration file for fm09, edit it manually and change the parameter for 3d display to turn it off, perhaps you might be able to start the game. that being said i don't know where fm saves the configuration parameters and if the file it saves them in is encrypted or not. in any case its worth to try. whats the worst thing that can happen? fm not being able to start up? you've got that now.

£70 minimum on a new graphics card? Are you insane? It will cost you £20-30 for a card required to play Football Manager, stop listening to ********, the graphics card required is probably 5 years old. Is it SI Games problem than you haven't bothered to update your computer with the times?

The problem is that more and more people get laptops instead of desktops. So, people that realize that they can't play the game on the laptop they used for FM08 can't just upgrade it with a new cheap graphics card - They need to buy a new laptop.