Are we the beta testers or something?

Before i get into it i am not here to moan, hate, flame, troll... whatever..

I'm too old for all that, I just want to make a valid point. If your not gonna reply maturely, dont reply! Simple.

Everyone else all your ideas and opinions are greatly welcome.

Every year within a few days of the demo and even the retail game being released, a few obvious and widely reported bugs become apparent, this year its the injuries and the type sensitivity for example, last year was the player squad number registration bug etc etc

So what i'm wondering is does SI really have dedicated beta testers or are we doing what people who get paid should be doing?

I mean i love this game, always have and always will, but in the rush and clamour to provide a version every year its beginning to annoy me that half cooked products are being provided for us.

Obviously product testing and quality control seem to have been pushed on the back seat. The scary thing is even supposedly revolutionary new features, such as the 3D match engine seem unfinished, the player motions, reactions, movements seem like a throw back to gaming of 10-15 years ago.

I greatly appreciate all the effort, SI are putting in providing us with a product that gives us so much pleasure, but come on, i'm self employed and if anyone in my company provided such a half baked product as a finished article and expected me to put my name to it, I doubt they would have a job.

It all boils down to me personaly thinking SI are beginning to take the loyalty of their fan base for granted and that is not a good sign.

All opinions welcome, please lets have a constructive debate.

a few dozen paid play tester < 100k demo players

I think we are. I was thinking that to.

But a single play tester should have caught the tteexxtt bbuugg.

Sooooo.

But still, this product will be shipped as is, don't you think we deserve a more polished product?

But a single play tester should have caught the tteexxtt bbuugg.

Sooooo.

Where does it do this? I've never seen it.

LOL @ ^^

everywhere you type?

But a single play tester should have caught the tteexxtt bbuugg.

Sooooo.

i dont have this text bug issue, sensitivty on my system is fine. must just be certain systems.

But still, this product will be shipped as is, don't you think we deserve a more polished product?

Most definitely. When SI brought in the 2D match engine on CM4, the game was ridiculously bugged anyone else on here will concur with that, I've tried the FM09 demo and it was pretty poor so I won't have my fingers burnt again and won't be buying the game on 14/11.

Can't honestly believe the beta testers missed so many flaws, are they that blind?

Okay just thought the text sensitivity it was a wide spread bug. My bad

LOL @ ^^

everywhere you type?

Oh, it mustn't be everyone then 'cause I haven't come across it..... yet.

But a single play tester should have caught the tteexxtt bbuugg.

Sooooo.

What, even if it doesn't happen on their pc?

I entirely agree. To such an extent I will probably cancel my pre order and wait for Patch 3 (as I predict it will take that long before it is playable as a genuine game.) It is remarkable that SI are doing this again as FM08 was so bad and never was truly fixed (I could score from corners at will and had centre halves scoring 30 goals a season.) It is not my role to correct a product. I purchase a product and I expect it to be finished. I don't purchase half eaten Mars bars do I? Release the game when it is finished and properly tested. Not when you need to for cash flow or release agreement reasons. The game is not finished; go backa nd test it properly and release it when it is. If this is too costly then frankly your business model is flawed and you will in the end lose your loyal fan base and will close down.

Before i get into it i am not here to moan, hate, flame, troll... whatever..

I'm too old for all that, I just want to make a valid point. If your not gonna reply maturely, dont reply! Simple.

Everyone else all your ideas and opinions are greatly welcome.

Every year within a few days of the demo and even the retail game being released, a few obvious and widely reported bugs become apparent, this year its the injuries and the type sensitivity for example, last year was the player squad number registration bug etc etc

So what i'm wondering is does SI really have dedicated beta testers or are we doing what people who get paid should be doing?

I mean i love this game, always have and always will, but in the rush and clamour to provide a version every year its beginning to annoy me that half cooked products are being provided for us.

Obviously product testing and quality control seem to have been pushed on the back seat. The scary thing is even supposedly revolutionary new features, such as the 3D match engine seem unfinished, the player motions, reactions, movements seem like a throw back to gaming of 10-15 years ago.

I greatly appreciate all the effort, SI are putting in providing us with a product that gives us so much pleasure, but come on, i'm self employed and if anyone in my company provided such a half baked product as a finished article and expected me to put my name to it, I doubt they would have a job.

It all boils down to me personaly thinking SI are beginning to take the loyalty of their fan base for granted and that is not a good sign.

All opinions welcome, please lets have a constructive debate.

The same thought has crossed my mind.

I mean it doesn't seems like major problem because we get patches and update our games, but in principle i dont mind if this was a mass beta, but SI are gonna ship this game as is.

The worst thing is that the game freezes and stops responding on so many different systems. It even happens on certain Macs as well as PC's, which is unforgivable, it makes it looks like SI test their game using just one system spec.

I entirely agree. To such an extent I will probably cancel my pre order and wait for Patch 3 (as I predict it will take that long before it is playable as a genuine game.) It is remarkable that SI are doing this again as FM08 was so bad and never was truly fixed (I could score from corners at will and had centre halves scoring 30 goals a season.) It is not my role to correct a product. I purchase a product and I expect it to be finished. I don't purchase half eaten Mars bars do I? Release the game when it is finished and properly tested. Not when you need to for cash flow or release agreement reasons. The game is not finished; go backa nd test it properly and release it when it is. If this is too costly then frankly your business model is flawed and you will in the end lose your loyal fan base and will close down.

Agree 100%

I mean it doesn't seems like major problem because we get patches and update our games, but in principle i dont mind if this was a mass beta, but SI are gonna ship this game as is.

That's just it. If they said, "This is a Beta, help us find the bugs" people wouldn't be so angry, but this is the game that will be sent to the shops!

And I'd say the majority of people who buy this game wont be on the forums and wont know about patches.

What, even if it doesn't happen on their pc?

Well if every PC in the SI Towers Test Room doesn't have that issue then you need to diversify your machines somewhat.

Once you move to windowed it ceases to be an option so perhaps the bug reporting app caused the testers to run it in a window, thusly missing it.

VB

Well if every PC in the SI Towers Test Room doesn't have that issue then you need to diversify your machines somewhat.

Once you move to windowed it ceases to be an option so perhaps the bug reporting app caused the testers to run it in a window, thusly missing it.

VB

I'm not SI.

There is an external testing program too. We all have vastly different specs.

It is almost a certainty this was not tested very much. I can't believe even 100 game hours has been run through this. So in a sense we are the beta testers, a role I think some of us are not too unhappy about, should the issues be addressed.

That said I wait hopefully for SI to sort the issues, I really hope they do.

Is it at all possible that the different versions from different sites are fundamentally different on a code level? Would explain the great variety in the reports of the game....

i agree with the OP , i also think SI should have done an open beta . if they did that in the first place the game would have less bugs and less problems then it has now

I'm not SI.

There is an external testing program too. We all have vastly different specs.

Then you need new testers because they find absolutely nothing year in, year out. FM09 is going to be the buggiest incarnation since CM4 at this rate.

That's just it. If they said, "This is a Beta, help us find the bugs" people wouldn't be so angry, but this is the game that will be sent to the shops!

And I'd say the majority of people who buy this game wont be on the forums and wont know about patches.

I want to change Sheddy's mars bar example, its not a case of it being half eaten bar, maybe half baked, but we're still expected to pay for it while we try it out.

My problem is this issue seems to have become the norm in the gaming industry where developers release unfinished and uninspired sequels year on year yet expect gamers to pay full price every single time.

As people have said I'm all for mass testing but what about the loyal fans out there who do buy the game and play as is because their not aware of patches?

Surely it would have been better to release the demo a couple of days before the game went gold then they would have the chance to fix some of the issues before we pay for the flawed version. It only took a couple of hours for these problems to cause uproar, while the people at SI have missed it completely if they did any testing.

Surely it would have been better to release the demo a couple of days before the game went gold then they would have the chance to fix some of the issues before we pay for the flawed version. It only took a couple of hours for these problems to cause uproar, while the people at SI have missed it completely if they did any testing.

Yea i think this would be a such a positive step, having a mass beta maybe a few weeks before the game went gold, but having said that they we're still getting coding ready a few days before it went gold, so maybe a longer time frame for the project is needed.

Does anyone else feel that also because SI spend so much time after a games release fixing bugs that shouldnt have been in a retail version in the first place that they are takin resources away from their next installment and that is contribuiting to the problems?

In a word - yes.

Replying to the OP.

I too am a grandad when it comes to FM/CM as I've been playing it for longer than I care to remember, and so I love the game and don't get too wound up by smaller issues.

The way I see it is that it will take another couple of years for SI to get the 3D working as they probably want. I don't mind about that, the 2D system improved each year and I've never expected FM'09 to have a perfect 3D system as it's the first version. Improvements will be made for FM'10 and FM'11, by which time I'm sure it will have come on leaps and bounds.

To answer you actual thread title (are we beta testers) I do have sympathy. Last year I managed Leeds, but had to stop and wait for the first patch thjat resolved to issue whereby the board saw you bottom of the table (because you started with -15 pts) and sacked you even though you may have won 5 of your opening 6 matches. That is an example of something less acceptable although the points issue IRL came late I think, and so maybe SI didn't have time to think through all the consequences.

The closing down bug last year is something I can live with early on. The match engine has to be re-done each year as we find the perfect tactic, and so they need to challenge us again by tinkering with the engine.

The other issue is the release deadline. This year it's a month later than usual, but while other games can be released when they are ready, there is pressure to get this game out as close to the start of the season as possible. Perfecting the game for release in January is a delay too far for SI I would guess, and agree with too.

There is something wrong though. I'm not a software expert, but SI should aim to have the game sorted by the close of the transfer window. Then the database of players can be updated with late changes and the whole of September and early October it can be beta tested property, changes made, and the demo out about now.

I'm happy to beta test next year if needed, but not on the final version like we're doing now with the demo (I won't charge much, honest )

Do you agree with me, or am I being too harsh??

I played the demo for all of 30 min last night (not enough to make a great opinion) and I think I looked at all of the different new features.....

Match Engine - I saw some really intelligent passes I hadn't seen before, but also....the 3-D looked pretty bad compared to what I hoped for. After seeing all the videos, and people saying that certain bugs were fixed....I was sad to see they weren't (goal flash before scoring) Also, I saw a ball go across the goalmouth in front of the keeper, off the post, and rebound to my player without the keeper moving. Granted, it was a League 2 team.....but HE DIDN'T MOVE ONE MILLIMETER. I consider that more a match engine flaw than anything. From what I saw of the 3-D, I'd rather go back to 2-D.

Press Conferences - It was more of the same, with some more flair added in. This addition was pretty cool, and I think it'll take a decent amount of time before we know the full extent of it. I don't think anyone has gotten far enough to see this feature's full impact.

Ass Man Feedback - Not bad, I doubt I'll use it a lot, but it was interesting to see all of the different types of comments available.

Transfer System - This probably saddened me the most. When I heard that they rewrote it from scratch, I started salivating. From first glance...it looks exactly the same. I know that there isn't much you can do with it, but I just didn't expect to see the same "place bid -have it rejected/accepted-negotiate contract - contract signed" I expected something else....anything else. The one bright spot was the Transfer Rumours.....I liked how I was supposedly tied to Toulalan, when I literally hadn't scouted him or anything. However, it was the same message from last year asking me if I was interested.....Ho-hum....

Skin - Looks great, I like it a lot.

All told, I didn't get what I expected from the new features....BUT I know that....

A) This is only a demo,

B) There will hopefully be changes

C, and most importantly) People need to understand something. No matter what, even with all of the bells and whistles, we're paying for what is 90% the same game. The same experience of scouting players, making transfers, finding diamonds in the rough, and hopefully winning will come no matter what new features they put in and no matter how good said features are. In my opinion, to not buy the game because of a bad demo experience is turning your back on the actual fun of the game, which is the stuff I just mentioned. The other stuff is a bunch of extra stuff. Every game is the one before, with updated rosters, chairmen, a better match engine and in most cases uniforms. The rest is nowhere near as important as the main gaming experience.....which everyone knows will be amazing. Otherwise we wouldn't have played 08 for hours, or 07, or 06, or whatever one you played the most. What I'm trying to say is....We all love the game.....Let's just keep in mind that we're not paying for JUST a 3-D match engine, or JUST Ass Man Feedback....we're paying for another 100 hours of improved gameplay.

So, even with all of the disappointment, there's no way I'm missing out on 09

Does anyone else feel that also because SI spend so much time after a games release fixing bugs that shouldnt have been in a retail version in the first place that they are takin resources away from their next installment and that is contribuiting to the problems?

Of course, it's a catch 22 situation, and the only way out of it is to skip one year, start fresh. But we know why they ain't gonna do that don't we?

i'm self employed

I hope you're not an English teacher

I think SI will have noticed a lot of the bugs and are working on a patch. As for the injuries, they calm down after a few games. I think getting pre-season right is key here.

the beta testers might be running on good computers(knowing they are beta testers), so the weaker ones that you and I have, might have been overlooked.

why not suggest to SI to get a weak 2nd hand computer, and ask them to beta test it on that platform?

anyway, just my comment and suggestion.

What, even if it doesn't happen on their pc?

Well if it didn't occur on any of the computers it was tested on then the range of different test configurations must be incredibly limited.

We got all the same excuses last year. The game is too complex, the testers can't possibly catch all the bugs that people playing the demo and full game will find etc. Yet these are not some minor grapes that are brought up during the game's lifespan. These are majorly obvious flaws that are reported on here within minutes of releasing the demo/game. The number of people actively posting on these forums is not that huge either. How was it possible not to notice that closing down bug last year? This at least must have happened on every PC it happened on. How could none of the testers sense that the amount and seriousness of injuries is a bit over the top this year?

You know what, I personally think that this isn't even down to testers. I've read many posts by people that have been involved in testing where they state that they've caught a serious bug, reported it but it has still somehow made it to the final build unfixed. It seems to me that this is rather an issue with the developers themselves and what they deem as an important feedback. It seems that they actually do need a mass of complaints by their paying customers to acknowledge an issue with the game.

I think their decision not to bring out a beta demo was a huge mistake this year. I seriously hope they bring out a beta next year for a larger scale testing. This years edition has shown just how valuable our feedback is, and when you consider this product is being shipped as it is, it doesn't make SI look very good. Here's hoping SI bring back the wide-spread beta testing for FM 2010!!!

I don't want to flame SI Games, they have provided me with hundreds to probably thousands of hours of enjoyment, however when obvious bugs are spotted in a demo it doesn't reflect good on the company or the game. These are bugs that can be spotted by paid testers with ease and I cannot understand why they have not been fixed. No game is 100% bug free however some of the bugs couldn't be any more obvious if they hit you in the face.

We are not beta testers: we are alfa testers!!!!!!!!!!!!

The demo works fine with my bloody old P3 machine, but won't run at all with the P4 dual core PC!

It's the first time I have problems...

We are not beta testers: we are alfa testers!!!!!!!!!!!!

The demo works fine with my bloody old P3 machine, but won't run at all with the P4 dual core PC!

It's the first time I have problems...

heh that's interesting

Red Bones:

Agree with you on most points, and your right i dont think anything would truly hinder my enjoyment of FM, but as i noticed by what someone said in another thread, the sad fact is we have mentally come to accept that the FM series will forever be a progressive development ie features will be built on and issues ironed out for future instalments, but is that a correct thing principly, doesnt that mean that every release of FM is paramount to a patch?

Wacman:

Agree with you, but dont u feel the whole process of bugs in retail games that completely hinder the playability is fundemantally wrong?

With FM09 they should have just concentrated on getting the game running right. FM06 was running great, but 07, 08 and now 09 have ignored issues to some extent and instead just focused on adding new stuff, as a result, there are bugs upon bugs and its getting out of control.

i wonder... why has no SI staff responded to any of these errors i mean they could come up with a reason or excuse. are they shocked we found all these bugs or they thinking we don't appreciate things?this 09 makes 08 looks like way better.

I hope you're not an English teacher

lol was waitin for that

Is it ok for me to say it runs perfectly fine on my system? No text issue. No 3d issues (as far as it running is concerned). Enjoying the game at the moment. Yes, there are one or two things that are in there, which I would expect to have been spotted pre-release of demo - but nothing that kills the game. Personally, cant wait for the 14th. Busy day that, with COD out too.

W XP

Quad core @ 2.40

3.25 Gb Ram

Geforce 8800 gtx

am confused because this demo was ready long ago so why putting out this garbage??

Is it ok for me to say it runs perfectly fine on my system? No text issue. No 3d issues (as far as it running is concerned). Enjoying the game at the moment. Yes, there are one or two things that are in there, which I would expect to have been spotted pre-release of demo - but nothing that kills the game. Personally, cant wait for the 14th. Busy day that, with COD out too.

W XP

Quad core @ 2.40

3.25 Gb Ram

Geforce 8800 gtx

No freezes for you?

I wonder if its only vista users that have freezing issues..

Have you ever done any beta testing ? Usually bugs/issues are put into a number of categories and then worked on in order of priority - game breaking first then downwards. As release date gets closer you have to prioritise even further and some get left behind due to time constraints.

Something that is seen by a % of 100k+ demo users may not have been seen by a handful of beta testers. Simple fact is you can only test on a limited number of configurations of PCs and given the number of possible configurations it is impossible to check on every possible permutation of hardware/software.

Some of the people having issues should realise you cannot expect a game in 2008 to work on a PC from 2003 or earlier. Simple facts are that technology moves on and you need to move with it if you expect the latest games to work. Its like expecting a PS3 game to work on a PS1. Reading the minimum specs at 512mb then greeting that it doesnt work on your uber 256mb 1.0ghz PC is just pain bonkers. There has to be an assumption by SI that most people will run on a decent spec PC and not on some bit of kit that Fred Flintstone would be ashamed to use.

Bugs will slip through , if people spot them post them in the right place with how to recreate it and if you can recreate it again so they can fix them.

Nigh on every game is the same these days .. developers are under pressure from the money-men to get it out the door by such and such a date and to hell with the paying public .. "we'll just release a patch" ...

Also, theres never going to be a perfect FM game (or any other game that gets released each year) - there isn't any real incentive for any developer to try and do that. If SI created the perfect management game .. the match engine was perfect, the day-to-day management stuff was realistic and perfect etc .. Who would buy next years version?

So the 3D engine, for instance, was never going to be great .. Ok, I don't mind it (altho the game crashes every time I hit post-match so can't really play the demo) .. they'll add a little bit more to it next year, a bit more the year after .. The match engine is fine (the AI and logic) and its here where all the main work goes - to represent it in 3D is really an after-thought and doesn't take 12 months to get it looking great .. Yes, it could have been pro-evo like (despite what others on here have said) .. but, no, they'll add a bit extra next year and then a bit more the year after .. if they gave us it all now, then next years holidays would be in jeopardy!!

No freezes for you?

I wonder if its only vista users that have freezing issues..

no XP users as well, like me.

I think one thing people may be overlooking is... the QA (testing) team will find a lot more bugs than the development team even attempt to fix. I'm sure SEGA test the product as well as some internal testers (contract?) within SI and perhaps a few more outside the studio. Its down to the development team and SEGA production to work out which bugs will be fixed and which will be looked at later and/or fixed with subsequent patches.

If the finger is to be pointed at anyone its perhaps SEGA? They shouldn’t (if some posts are to be believed with regards to bugs) allow the title out with immediate problems and dare I say (from a purely personal point of view) at such a low quality point.

SI - Maybe you are waiving too many bugs each year? Last year, for me, it was the confidence bug that meant I missed 08 - the first game I missed in years. This year I think the 3D match engine looks ropey as hell but granted, I don’t have to use it. The loading times for matches and a few other minor things I've listed elsewhere are making me wonder whether I'll be buying this version either. A fully patched and community updated 07 remains installed and ready to play on my machine but two versions from current might be pushing it, not sure I'd go back to that one either (thank the lord there are loads of good 360 games out now/soon!).

Maybe a refresh of the team is required? I'm sure there are reasons why the games have been falling below some expectations recently and that we'll never know what’s going on (you have to be inside to form a proper opinion and I'm only able to speculate). If anything it really looks to me as though some people (perhaps key people) do not demand sufficient quality. It comes across as a buggy database and I fear FM will falter if this continues. There was a time people could laugh at Champ Man (with new developer) but you're not doing yourselves any favours and they are doing well to improve.

We dont expect Gears of War console quality bells and whistles, but some more thought would be nice when designing and implementing new features. Is there one person who is responsible for the entire design and inter-link of all the features? Is this a full-time position? If you think it isnt a full-time role, well, that is where your main problem is. Is there an Art Director/Manager? You dont need an army of management, but you need individuals to concentrate on specific things, preferably not work on them at the same time.

1 Coder "Oh yes, the Match Engine is great... works fine, it can go out like this... its too hard to implement everything"

0 Mr QA "Didnt you write the Match Engine? Are you not biased? We've got a lot of things we in test would like to fix..."

1 Coder "Listen! its fine okay... I dont agree with that bug, SHIP IT"

This product comes across as if its not only designed by committee but seen through and approved by the same committee. You cannot wear multiple hats anymore, the game went way beyond allowing for that scope years ago chaps. I'm not suggesting you need a dictator (alternative problems come with this) but you need clear and dedicated thought to your design and implementation in future. It is a wonderful series that could do with some polish to perhaps reach today’s standards. You remain ahead of the competition, but nothing stands still.

Of course, just my opinion and speculation - I don’t know anything about the internal workings of SI!

I hate to be captain obvious and repeat things over and over but I'm with the majority on questioning the bug policies at SI.

It happened last year, the year before that, and now again. Within minutes of the demo being released, postings on the forum were made with eye-grabbing bugs such as the injuries and the freezing. Given they weren't experienced by 100% of the users, but a very large amount that shows the testing process at SI isn't what it should be.

I, like others, was actually shocked that a simple thing as freezing was not caught by the testers from the dev team. At first, I figured it might be a problem on my end, but than came on the forums and saw that it wasn't just me.

I was hoping the developers of the franchise would do their best not to have a repetition of such scenarios since for the past several releases, this has been occurring. Sure, a patch will fix the major problems, but why must they always rely on a patch? The main part of the development process is to get it right (I don't mean 100% bug-free, but rather a game that doesn't have such "simple" bugs as freezing) and only release a patch for one reason; a data update which could also fix a few minor bugs, not game-breaking bugs.

And as mentioned before, the excuses, or reasoning rather, given by the reps of the franchise remains the same, which I'm sure everyone who has been a loyal customer has memorized already.

I do get fed up with releases like this at times, but I like to be an optimistic person and think they would learn. I guess not this year, hopefully next time around.

am confused because this demo was ready long ago so why putting out this garbage??

Championship manager 2009 comes out April 2009 I wonder if it was rushed to get the product out before CM09. Ive never looked at the CM range, but i wonder if its worth a look!!

Apparently they are also releasing a 3D version will be intresting to see how it goes :o