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View Full Version : Please read someone and comment on player degration



Navie
10-04-2008, 08:22
Player degration - Now this is the biggest thing in my opinion and is very very important for realism.
Ok...lets take Paulo Maldini for example, he still plays at his age for AC Milan, has the strength and stamina of a defender at the age of 33 in Football Manager. Not all football players start losing their ability at the same time so I think something called degeneration should be added to the game, for Maldini the stat would be high, for alot of footballers they carry on very late and its down to Natural endurance how long they can keep going...talking about real life here...thats why Maldini can carry on, some might say he was a World Class defender and thats why he still plays...not true, opinions please and would like someone from SI to comment on this also please...thanks.
I do think at the moment players stats in the game stat going down at the same time as all other players and its not something that is linear in terms of fitness. This also has to do with training, I believe that if a person can train hard they can keep their peak for much longer. Now trying to find out which players are capable of lasting longer in real life is something that may need some thought but maybe someone can come to a conclusion which players are capable of that.

Navie
10-04-2008, 08:22
Player degration - Now this is the biggest thing in my opinion and is very very important for realism.
Ok...lets take Paulo Maldini for example, he still plays at his age for AC Milan, has the strength and stamina of a defender at the age of 33 in Football Manager. Not all football players start losing their ability at the same time so I think something called degeneration should be added to the game, for Maldini the stat would be high, for alot of footballers they carry on very late and its down to Natural endurance how long they can keep going...talking about real life here...thats why Maldini can carry on, some might say he was a World Class defender and thats why he still plays...not true, opinions please and would like someone from SI to comment on this also please...thanks.
I do think at the moment players stats in the game stat going down at the same time as all other players and its not something that is linear in terms of fitness. This also has to do with training, I believe that if a person can train hard they can keep their peak for much longer. Now trying to find out which players are capable of lasting longer in real life is something that may need some thought but maybe someone can come to a conclusion which players are capable of that.

Navie
10-04-2008, 08:25
One more thing, lets say a player starts losing his abilities when he reaches 31, they should go down, instead of totally going downhill from there the more older he gets, maybe his stats can hold until he is say 34-36 depending on his degration stat?

Mitja
10-04-2008, 08:39
I agree and this has been mentioned a few times.

IMO player stats that should influence this are:

profesinalism, sporotness, determination and natural fitness and his level of injuries he had in career. also club's training facilities should be very important.

Navie
10-04-2008, 08:45
I know in real life you don't hear about anything like 'How long is this player going to last?' but its a natural thing every manager knows how long their player can last or when he will retire. Managers at big clubs may offer their 31,32 and 33 years old new contracts if they know they can go further, the player himself will tell the manager 'I can carry on longer and I don't feel I have lost my physique'.
I'm sure Giggs has said that to Ferguson in real life and Ferguson can see that, the only thing that I personally have known Giggs to have less is his Stamina and it is not upto standard but he is still very sharp as he has always been.

mizan
10-04-2008, 09:10
I think there's a lack of good oldies in FM.

Players never reach the heights of Maldini, Sheringham and David James.

There is hardly any regen players that reach 38-40 and still perform at the top level.

I know its rare but the three players mentioned above have done it, maybe there will be a better chance of a player reaching 40 and still performing and not retiring at 35.

Neji
10-04-2008, 09:10
It has been mentioned and is something that annoys me about this game.

isuckatfm
10-04-2008, 09:52
A picture is worth a thousand words:-

The top thirty seven 34 year olds in the database sorted by CA using MiniScout. The database at the start in 2007 is on the right, and the database 6 years later is on the left.

http://img98.imageshack.us/img98/3525/34yearoldsls4.jpg

So basically that shows that in the FM world players are declining in general faster than their real life counterparts as judged by the researchers of the starting database. I know there are many factors involved but even still the difference is pretty large in terms of the CA distribution and range.

Mitja
10-04-2008, 10:05
that's a huge difference. http://community.sigames.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

nelsonmcjones
10-04-2008, 10:26
That's quite telling. It re-enforces my policy of offloading 30 somethings. I occasionally keep GKs or CBs 'til they are 33 or so but as a rule your gone when you hit 31.

Nice research isuck.

cliff7197
10-04-2008, 11:18
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by isuckatfm:
A picture is worth a thousand words:-

The top thirty seven 34 year olds in the database sorted by CA using MiniScout. The database at the start in 2007 is on the right, and the database 6 years later is on the left.

http://img98.imageshack.us/img98/3525/34yearoldsls4.jpg

So basically that shows that in the FM world players are declining in general faster than their real life counterparts as judged by the researchers of the starting database. I know there are many factors involved but even still the difference is pretty large in terms of the CA distribution and range. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Says it all really.

For players over 30, FM <> Real life.

turn it upto 11
10-04-2008, 23:51
no debate really then is there the picture proves it, if a few more could post theres aswell, i reinstalled so i have no games past the first season yet.

most in the 2013 list are gk too.

robin_trott_hoof
11-04-2008, 00:13
But very few players, keepers aside, play at the top level in their mid-thirties - especially as players tend to peak a little earlier at present. Maldini and Giggs are exceptions, but I can't think of many others who have been world class at that age.

Players maybe decline too quickly in their early thirties though. Also the nature of their decline doesn't seem right to me - in reality, players lose physicality and motivation, but you don't see technically talented players gradually losing all their skills and mental attributes.

eXistenZ
11-04-2008, 00:14
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by isuckatfm:
A picture is worth a thousand words:-

The top thirty seven 34 year olds in the database sorted by CA using MiniScout. The database at the start in 2007 is on the right, and the database 6 years later is on the left.

http://img98.imageshack.us/img98/3525/34yearoldsls4.jpg

So basically that shows that in the FM world players are declining in general faster than their real life counterparts as judged by the researchers of the starting database. I know there are many factors involved but even still the difference is pretty large in terms of the CA distribution and range. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Very clear. I hope SI will do something about this. There should be a level of PA/CA for every player on which you can't go below.

backpackant
11-04-2008, 01:19
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by isuckatfm:
A picture is worth a thousand words:-

The top thirty seven 34 year olds in the database sorted by CA using MiniScout. The database at the start in 2007 is on the right, and the database 6 years later is on the left.

http://img98.imageshack.us/img98/3525/34yearoldsls4.jpg

So basically that shows that in the FM world players are declining in general faster than their real life counterparts as judged by the researchers of the starting database. I know there are many factors involved but even still the difference is pretty large in terms of the CA distribution and range. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Excellent post, IsuckatFM. I've bitched about this for a while now. Nice to see something approaching scientific.

At the moment, as soon as a player hits 31, he's on the transfer list ... unless I really, really like him. God, I hate getting attached to programming code.

cimbom89
11-04-2008, 01:24
Thats a really good research.

I adapt to the Wenger policy aswel when the player is over 30 no matter how good or superb he is I sell him straight away as I like to keep the squad very young. It does win me a lot of things.

Think about Henry IRL last year he was at Arsenal and all the players had to pass to him etc. but now the young players are playing beautiful football

Navie
11-04-2008, 02:44
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by robin_trott_hoof:
But very few players, keepers aside, play at the top level in their mid-thirties - especially as players tend to peak a little earlier at present. Maldini and Giggs are exceptions, but I can't think of many others who have been world class at that age.

Players maybe decline too quickly in their early thirties though. Also the nature of their decline doesn't seem right to me - in reality, players lose physicality and motivation, but you don't see technically talented players gradually losing all their skills and mental attributes. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I agree with you there, what you said in the last paragraph is true. Yes they lose their physical stats but why should they lose their mental and technical skills? Mental stats are like memory, a persons personality just doesn't change becuase they get old. Just because they get old doesn't mean they pass or shoot less better than when they were at their peak. The only thing that will affect mental and technical that is their physical stats, passing the ball will get weaker because of agility, strength, stamina etc but that passing skill should be imbedded. Decisions, anticipation, workrate will be affected when a player gets exhausted.
Now a old player should be able to play on top of his game for like 45 minutes before he starts to lose his effectiveness due to his physical stats when he is old as they will be just a tad lower. But what is stopping an old player from training hard and keeping their physical stats at the top? It can be done in real life so it should be the same in game.
Players at an old age in real life play less games then those younger players and hence they lose games and thier sharpness decreases, then they move to lower clubs where their sharness decreases further, not getting the top training and not playing with others who are better than you will obviously have a degrading effect on the player, so I do think training should have alot to do with it and not their age.

Navie
16-04-2008, 09:16
Am I allowed to keep this at the top from time to time?

Glyn
16-04-2008, 09:21
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Navie:
Am I allowed to keep this at the top from time to time? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Bumping of threads is frowned upon. If they die a death, so be it. No-one's threads are more important than anybody elses. Otherwise we'd have all sorts of threads being bumped all the time to the detriment of good threads.

Navie
16-04-2008, 09:25
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Glyn:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Navie:
Am I allowed to keep this at the top from time to time? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Bumping of threads is frowned upon. If they die a death, so be it. No-one's threads are more important than anybody elses. Otherwise we'd have all sorts of threads being bumped all the time to the detriment of good threads. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I think this was on page 4 so thought why not? And also my I want my idea to be heard.

isuckatfm
16-04-2008, 09:54
@ Navie

It was brought up in the bugs forum here

http://community.sigames.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/9482076743/m/3592074383

and nbrocky, a tester, stated it is being looked at but no new fixes will be released for this version.

So no need to keep bumping your thread. You and others who have found this issue have been heard http://community.sigames.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif. Whether or not SI agree it needs changing and do so for 2009 who knows.

Navie
16-04-2008, 10:08
I only bumped this thread once, this isn't a fix for this version. I wrote this idea so it could be implemented for a future version of the game...also have listed it in the 'Ideas for fute FM games' thread but i've made this thread because I feel this idea should have a big significance to realism.

postal postie
16-04-2008, 10:09
i've noticed that finnan at 34 has lost his concentration quite alot. i dont think this is something that goes with age really.

carragher at 33 has dropped his mental stats as wel.

postal postie
16-04-2008, 10:10
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Navie:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Glyn:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Navie:
Am I allowed to keep this at the top from time to time? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Bumping of threads is frowned upon. If they die a death, so be it. No-one's threads are more important than anybody elses. Otherwise we'd have all sorts of threads being bumped all the time to the detriment of good threads. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I think this was on page 4 so thought why not? And also my I want my idea to be heard. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

yeah sometimes as well some threads just get buried under other rubbish threads too.

i've had a few that got hardly any replys first time and then i bump it the next day and loads of people reply.

for example i never noticed this thread first time around.

Navie
16-04-2008, 10:23
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by postal postie:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Navie:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Glyn:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Navie:
Am I allowed to keep this at the top from time to time? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Bumping of threads is frowned upon. If they die a death, so be it. No-one's threads are more important than anybody elses. Otherwise we'd have all sorts of threads being bumped all the time to the detriment of good threads. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I think this was on page 4 so thought why not? And also my I want my idea to be heard. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

yeah sometimes as well some threads just get buried under other rubbish threads too.

i've had a few that got hardly any replys first time and then i bump it the next day and loads of people reply.

for example i never noticed this thread first time around. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Exactly http://community.sigames.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

postal postie
17-04-2008, 07:17
jamie carragher is fast turning into frank spencer on my game.

he's 33. his mental stats have been dropping but their still good. his pace and acceleraion are both 10.

all of a sudden though he's losing out against the little tussles before the striker runs off of him, he's scored two own goals in the last month and for some reason high balls bounce off his head only to land at the feat of evertons pacy striker.
he was at fault for both evertons goals in the 2-2 draw and all three of their goals when they beat me 3-1.

he's only 33.

turn it upto 11
17-04-2008, 07:23
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by cimbom89:
Thats a really good research.

I adapt to the Wenger policy aswel when the player is over 30 no matter how good or superb he is I sell him straight away as I like to keep the squad very young. It does win me a lot of things.

Think about Henry IRL last year he was at Arsenal and all the players had to pass to him etc. but now the young players are playing beautiful football </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

look where trying to play beautiful football gets you.