Will the DRM on FM 09 stop you from buying the game?

I have read the announcement of the DRM for FM 2009, and I am not sure what to make of it. Just to remind everyone, the DRM is this:

The Disk is not longer required, but you MUST now authenticate online ONCE (and once only) through steam, online or by phone. You no longer need to authenticate when done once (so don’t have to connected to the internet or phone every time).Using the disc every time as authentication is not an option.

You are limited to installing the game onto 5 computers at any one time. If you uninstall the game from one of these, you WILL get your authentication back. If, however you don’t uninstall before you reformat your computer, you will lose your authentication.

(Supposedly) All of the DRM software is uninstalled when you uninstall the game

Personally, I don’t ever install the game on more than one computer and have yet to reformat the laptop, so the restrictions don’t really bother me in practice. However, it would be frustrating for people who regularly reformat their computer. They would have to make sure that they uninstall this game (possibly the only game they need to uninstall) to ensure they don’t lose one of their activations. This is a case of letting the pirates win and forcing the customer who has payed for the game to jump through hoops simply because of the pirates. This is not right – we who pay for the game should not get worse treatment than those who pirate the game (who will simply download a cracked version without these restrictions).

Further, I don’t have a problem with putting in the disc every time. I have yet to play FM anywhere apart from my house (although I am going to University next year, so this may change). This new system is actually ideal for those who want to play FM on the move, for as long as they authenticate first, they don’t need to be online and can play where ever they wish. However, why is the option to authenticate by having the disc in the machine all the time not an option? Mac users still have to do it, why should we also not get the option? For those who are unfortunate enough to not have broadband, they have waste some of their time (and money) to play the game they have played for. Where is the sense in this? Pirates will again simply get a cracked version without any of the restrictions.

The aforementioned is another example of forcing customers to jump through hoops because of pirates, allowing the pirates to win.

It seems to me that this DRM system will not stop people pirating the game. Those who pirate the game will do it anyway. Indeed, this may actually encourage piracy as the pirated version (which will appear a few days after release, perhaps even before) will not have any more restrictions. What sounds more attractive – a version that has restrictions and requires you to authenticate, or a version that has no restrictions with no hassle to get playing the game?

Finally, although SI claims that the authentication servers will always be available, how can you trust this? Any eventuality could happen – SEGA and SI could go bankrupt for all we know. Surely we should have the right to play what we paid for, at any time we wish? If this is not the case, exactly what are we paying for?

I think that overall, these restrictions are counter-productive. They will not reduce piracy, and in fact piracy will probably increase. They are making piracy more attractive, as the pirated version will require less hassle to play with no restrictions. While I will probably still buy the game, I overall believe an authentication system is more hassle than playing with the disc. While this should be an option for those who like to play FM on the move, I believe it should be an option and that people should not be forced to authenticate the game if they are willing to put in the CD every time.

I realise that I contribute nothing to the forums, but I thought that this discussion would be interesting I apologise if I have in any way been rude, or have posted this in the wrong forum.

Ladies and Gentleman, discuss away

It was on there last year and I have Spore so it makes no difference to me, I only use my Computer for typing up stuff and FM so that is why I will buy Football Manager

While I'm not a big fan of the system simply because I don't like someone dictating to me how many times I can install a game which I paid my money for, while those who download it illegally can install it infinite times, it won't stop me buying FM09

At the end of the day the only way it will affect us is if our computer breaks and we can't get on to windows to uninstall FM, and that has to happen five times, which is very unlikely considering I've had my computer for 8 months without it breaking once

So while I don't like the principle of it, if you sit back and think about it for a second it's really not that bad, especially when you compare it to EA's god awful protection system

Well, I currently only have a laptop, I will probably try and get a good desktop in 2009, but seeing as that will bring me to a grand total of 2 machines. I honestly don't have a problem with the way it's been released.

Possibly a problem for folks who will be sharing the game with more than one person, but they could manage for a few months and get another copy later on when it goes down in price.

Edit: I've owned my current lappy for around 2 years, never had to reformat it or anything.

No, its ok. I'm not a fan BUT its not too much of a problem the way SI have done it. I would be pretty annoyed if I couldn't access the net though to authenticate my game.

Plus, I guess that we also get a benefit from the system ie we no longer have to have the Cd/DVD inserted to play.

Authenticating is no harder than doing a wee. And 10 times easier than writing that whole load of mush you just wrote. Would take a hell of a lot longer to download a cracked version or even crack football manager in the first place then it is to put the disk in your drive and let it install. An then it will also save you time as you won't need to put the disk in ever again. If there are restrictions to stop people pirating it then it means they get more sales which means more money which means likelihood of them crashing and burning very low... Also considering the massive fanbase/popularity that they have! I WILL be buying FM09. It looks amazing both visually and with all the tiny little features they have introduced! Gonna be tubular! Rock on!

it's not needed really just means i have to change the friggin internet over to play FM, won't stop me buying at all

it really doesnt bother me, infact its alot better with this

it's not needed really just means i have to change the friggin internet over to play FM, won't stop me buying at all

You only have to do this once!

this means the game will not be able to be bought preowned won't t? noone is going to buy the game from you, they won't know how many installs it has done. everyone will have to buy new, even those who may buy in say january, they will have to buy new.

another thing with this is what is to stop people installing the game, and just giving the disk to someone else to install on their machine, i know it uses up an install but like others have said the only way you really lose one is if your pc dies completely, and mine has never done that.

i tell you drm will kill the companies.

thay say drm is to stop people from selling & buying secondhand games. but its pirates that thay should be spending there money on not drm.

another thing with this is what is to stop people installing the game, and just giving the disk to someone else to install on their machine, i know it uses up an install but like others have said the only way you really lose one is if your pc dies completely, and mine has never done that.

Very Good Point. ive joined steam now to register the game, and have no problem with the new system,

i think it will probably cut down on the pirating of the game by huge huge margins.

but to the point above, cant it only be used on one computer)thought i read this yesterday?, or is it as above as simple as having 5 installs?

As everyone else has said it seems fine, but I must say that not everyone has the internet, will they be putting anything on the advertising to say that it can't be used without it? I know i'd be pretty annoyed if I bought the game and found I couldn't play it. Which is exactly what some people will do i'm sure.

this means the game will not be able to be bought preowned won't t? noone is going to buy the game from you, they won't know how many installs it has done. everyone will have to buy new, even those who may buy in say january, they will have to buy new.

another thing with this is what is to stop people installing the game, and just giving the disk to someone else to install on their machine, i know it uses up an install but like others have said the only way you really lose one is if your pc dies completely, and mine has never done that.

i tell you drm will kill the companies.

thay say drm is to stop people from selling & buying secondhand games. but its pirates that thay should be spending there money on not drm.

that is effectively what it does, as it makes it very difficult to download,

without semeing arrogant, if you can log onto the forums to discuss drm surely you wont have a problem registering online.... im just hoping its simple to do

Very Good Point. ive joined steam now to register the game, and have no problem with the new system,

i think it will probably cut down on the pirating of the game by huge huge margins.

but to the point above, cant it only be used on one computer)thought i read this yesterday?, or is it as above as simple as having 5 installs?

You get 5 install activation codes, so it can be installed on up to 5 PC's at a time.

As everyone else has said it seems fine, but I must say that not everyone has the internet, will they be putting anything on the advertising to say that it can't be used without it? I know i'd be pretty annoyed if I bought the game and found I couldn't play it. Which is exactly what some people will do i'm sure.

Then you would just ring the number to authenticate. If you don't have a phone borrow one? Go next door!

Then you would just ring the number to authenticate. If you don't have a phone borrow one? Go next door!

I obviously have the net, so it's not a problem for me, but why should people have to spend time fiddling about with that, not to mention the cost of the phone call on top of the game. I know it's not much but it's still money at the end of the day.

In the "Let's stop and think for a minute" category ... CM01/02 remains one of my favorite games. Given the SI/EIDOS split, had CM01/02 been a DRM-managed game, would DRM authentication still be available *today* for CM01/02?

Previous "download only" games that I have purchased, I am glad that I burned a disk of the download files, which are no longer available - but at least one of them the disk is useless because the DRM authentication is no longer available.

It isn't an issue that is going to prevent me from purchasing FM'09 - its the best game in its genre, and SI/Sega deserve to be appropriately compensated for their hard work.

i have no problem with it, its just a lot of people dont realise they are not buying a game, they just buying the right to play on it.

games trading is big business, there are shops that only trade games and dont sell new stock, if they get round to installs on consoles every game will be limited installs like this, and once you buy a game you are stck with it.

you see the sales of games but thats nothing compared to the ammount of people who play them, i have no figures but i guessing more than double the people pick up a game for under 20 quid a few months down the than the people who pay 40 straight up, and the games makers dont see a penny when the games are being traded, that must be just a big a problem as pirates, this kills 2 birds with one stone.

What do you do if you don't have the internet?

What do you do if you don't have the internet?

Authorisation over the phone I believe

Are you QPR because you are playing us tonight

Yeah just as you posted I answered my own question.

Yes I am QPR and I expect a thank you when we give you a promotion boost tonight.

Yeah just as you posted I answered my own question.

Yes I am QPR and I expect a thank you when we give you a promotion boost tonight.

Sacking Dowie was a big mistake, are you going down there?

You get 5 install activation codes, so it can be installed on up to 5 PC's at a time.

Cheers mate.

that to me kinda defeats the object abit, but is very understandable, people will have fm at home/uni, home/work, two brothers/sisters same house diff comps etc

so yeah 5 should be plenty, 2 is the most comps i can see it being used on per buyer, (there will be exceptions so dont flame me)

so 2 comps, gives you 3 spare lives effectively i cant see 2 comps breaking more than 3 times a year between them.

the ones who will be ****ed off is those planning on borrowing from a mate...which if there mate is generous they can still do

i dont see the problem evern for those without the net as you can register by phone....

i just think people dont like change..yeah its hassle to register but i prefer knowing people aint getting it for free when im paying good money

Have a question will DRM stop us buying the uk version of FM2009 and playing here in the USA or do we have to buy WSM 09 version ?

Then you would just ring the number to authenticate. If you don't have a phone borrow one? Go next door!

Why would someone have to go next door to be able to authenticate a game they paid their money for? It's not a privilege for people to play this game. They buy it so they should expect to play it straight away, install it however many times they like without the hassle of uninstalling, with the knowledge of unless they do something to damage the CD they will have that game for how ever many years they want.

I still play Red Alert 2 and I've installed that about 100 times on my different computers over the past 10 years, due to formatting or getting a new computer.. If this system was on that game I would be ringing companies that do not exist anymore and end up buying more copies of the game I already own just to be able to play it. Customers should have the option to play FM09 for the next 50 years if they wish as that's what buying a game is.

SI are doing this to try and stop piracy and to stop losing money because of it. Fair enough. To say it's anything else, ie making it easier for customers, is a lie.

You get 5 install activation codes, so it can be installed on up to 5 PC's at a time.

Yeah just as you posted I answered my own question.

Yes I am QPR and I expect a thank you when we give you a promotion boost tonight.

im a q.p.r fan also, i fancy us tonigth even against the best team in the division....im just happy weve got a club, i think alot of fans need to remember that.

fm related us getting money no longer makes my hooped march through the leagues that big a challenge or as impressive..still nice to do

This is laughable.

"we want to protect our games from pirates!"

"how do we do that?"

"uhm, no one knows"

"i know! lets stop people from buying it second hand! That way, we get more money!"

"Yeah! We can't stop pirates so we'll stop normal people from selling the game if they don't like it!"

"Brilliant!"

FFS! Game companies are their own worst enemy, they're not much better than the music industry.

Adobe, JASC and various other companies have been down the "online/phone activation" route many, many times, for 10 years or more - does that stop piracy? Not in the slightest, people figure out how to crack it within a week, and then people who pirate the software get a completely unrestricted copy while people who pay for it are restricted.

It's just completely ********.

No software at the moment can stop piracy so this just punishes people who have paid

I originally wrote the following in another thread, but since I answered "yes" to this poll, I might as well use it here too, since it explains why I'm so against these kinds of DRM:

This is truly a sad day.

So it seems that what SI is now doing is then exact same thing that is causing everyone to complain so much about other publishers' use of secuROM - Putting unnecessary restrictions on a game that we as users spend a fair amount of money on.

Only allowing a limited number of activations, and thereby forcing the users to spend a long time uninstalling every single game that is using this kind of activation, before they can reinstall windows, is unacceptable. Lots of people reinstall windows fairly often, and if someone has just 6 games installed, then it will most likely add at least half an hour to the process, because of this ridicules DRM - Every single game now needs to be uninstalled first. Then there's also the matter of windows crashing, or hardware failure, that may prevent a proper uninstall. Furthermore this won't even help stop people pirating the game – Pirates don't care about activation limits, since they just download the game without any kind of DRM or copy protection.

Finally I like to sometimes install quite old games, and there is no way anyone can guarantee that whatever "activation servers" are used will still be around 5 years from now. No matter what you SI guys may claim, I doubt you can see 5 years into the future (If you can then I might be interested in hearing some future winning Lotto numbers).

I remember a lot of user buying DRM protected music from companies that have since decided to shut down their music shops. The result: All the music purchased can now no longer be played after a reinstall of windows, since the license servers are no longer there.

I accept that a game needs copy protection, but as soon as restrictions and limits that cause an inconvenience for the user is added, then we are moving away from copy protection and into DRM - And that's where I draw the line.

The music business has already learned the hard way that annoying their customers with DRM, while the damn pirates won't notice any restrictions, is not the way to increase sales.

The only way the increase of DRM in games will ever stop, is when companies start to see on the bottom line, that the costumers are against it. So, just like what have already been seen with games like Spore and Far Cry 2, not buying the games is the only way to make this stop. If we accept this, then next year the DRM will be even more restrictive.

I have played every version of CM/FM since CM3, the last 5 versions even pre-ordered, but I guess this is the end (at least until you come to your senses).

DRM = Pre-order canceled.

And I was so looking forward to trying the 3D matches :-(

Been thinking about this all day and initially I have said that I'd definitely not buy FM09 because of the DRM, but I'm going to hold fire until the first patch comes out to see what effect (if any) it has on the game (needing to re-install or re-authenticate). I know last night I had a bit of a rant, probably got carried away with the moment, I certainly am not keen on this five installs thing but thinking about it, I've only installed FM08 once in the last year and that was the day I bought it!

Overblown issue. You all have access to the internet or phone. It's a few seconds of time to make it happen the one time you need to. This won't be an issue, that's my prediction. Blah.

Overblown issue. You all have access to the internet or phone. It's a few seconds of time to make it happen the one time you need to. This won't be an issue, that's my prediction. Blah.

what happens if you have to install it more than 5 times?

What happens if you want to play it in a few years and the activation servers aren't there anymore?

Don't you feel annoyed that people who download the game illegally get a completely unrestricted version while you paid for it but have to abide by restrictions?

hi all so say i buy fm09 from game or gamestation do i have to registar it?or can i go straight in2 game?

In the "Let's stop and think for a minute" category ... CM01/02 remains one of my favorite games. Given the SI/EIDOS split, had CM01/02 been a DRM-managed game, would DRM authentication still be available *today* for CM01/02?

Previous "download only" games that I have purchased, I am glad that I burned a disk of the download files, which are no longer available - but at least one of them the disk is useless because the DRM authentication is no longer available.

It isn't an issue that is going to prevent me from purchasing FM'09 - its the best game in its genre, and SI/Sega deserve to be appropriately compensated for their hard work.

I've been mulling this over, and came up with the conclusion it could go one of four ways:

1. The original license holder (Eidos) would maintain the servers.
   
2. The servers would be sold to the developer (SI) or the new owner (SEGA) as a condition of the deal
   
3. The servers would be closed down, with a patch released by the original developer/publisher to circumvent the activation routine (this would be the case if the game got a budget re-release or was included in a compendinum pack)
   
4. The servers would be closed down and customers would be left hanging
   

I'd like to think we'd see option 3; common cynicism tells me option 1 would be the best we could hope for, and option 4 would be the most likely.

I see you've been stung by option 4 - in terms of scale, what size company was the developer/publisher? Most large publishers that failed had their assets - and rights - swallowed up by larger publishers. Smaller, one-off publishers might slip through the net.

I'm not 100% certain, but hadn't the activation routine on Bioshock been amended a few times before eventually being disabled by the publisher?

I suspect we are seeing a change in ethos from publishers whilst they prepare us for digital downloads only, cutting out the middle man. If I had shares in Game - or for your location, Electronics Boutique - I'd be selling them today.

hi all so say i buy fm09 from game or gamestation do i have to registar it?or can i go straight in2 game?

You'd have to register it first. You'll either do this when installing the game or when you try to run it for the first time.

I think its great, I can now share a copy with the rest of my family and not need to have a CD! I fully encourage game developers to waste more time and money on ways that will save me some.

am i right in saying you can still buy a boxed copy for a little more expensive?

I think its great, I can now share a copy with the rest of my family and not need to have a CD! I fully encourage game developers to waste more time and money on ways that will save me some.

Not legally though mate.

How are they going to know other wise have you got a crackdown on i tmiles

am i right in saying you can still buy a boxed copy for a little more expensive?

You can buy it boxed still yes. Wouldn't say it's more expensive as you can shop around and get it for under £25. You will still have to register/authenticate the game, and the CD is not needed to run the game

I think its great, I can now share a copy with the rest of my family and not need to have a CD! I fully encourage game developers to waste more time and money on ways that will save me some.

And by the time you've done that you can't reinstall it again without begging for permission..

Pirates can just burn their cracked version to a cd and distribute it without worrying about anything.

Not legally though mate.

It is hardly illegal as it is playing by the very rules that have been set out by the company. I will just make sure that any other users of the legitimate copy of the game are aware that they should not uninstall it.

I dislike this type of DRM as it is another step towards pushing the market towards subcription only games, and lets face it, very few games turn out to be worth paying for once never mind multiple times. As such I will exploit these type of rules wherever they are put in place (assuming I purchase the inevitably bug ridden product in the first place)!

I see you've been stung by option 4 - in terms of scale, what size company was the developer/publisher? Most large publishers that failed had their assets - and rights - swallowed up by larger publishers. Smaller, one-off publishers might slip through the net.

Three different cases:

Case 1, small developer, large publisher, 3rd-party DRM

Case 2, small developer, self-published, 3rd-party DRM

Case 3, small developer, small publisher, internally owned DRM

Small titles, each time.

The problem comes down to fundamental economics: running an authentication server costs money. If the authentication server ceases to generate a profit, the company will eventually decide to shut it down.

Partnering with a third-party authentication server requires a constant stream of money from the source company to the partner company. If the partnership ceases to make sense (for any of a multitude of reasons), the partnership will be dissolved. (1. Loss of profitability. 2. Partner purchased by rival. 3. Partner's rival outbids partner, demands exclusivity.)

At some point, it ceases to be *in the company's interest* to support old versions of the game. I mean, it could be argued that new CM01/02 installs are preventing new FM09 installs - or more likely, that supporting new FM09 installs is distracting from FM14. When the "loyal following" of the old title drops below a certain point, the negative publicity from dropping support for it will cease to outweigh the cost of supporting it.

And, as we've seen too many times in the music industry, some companies will "dip their foot" in the waters with one solution, then change their mind about it, backing out of the partnership or out of the DRM game entirely.

I suspect that's what happened in the first case in my experience; the publishers dropped out of DRM and returned to CD-only for a while .. canceled the deal with the 3d-party DRM provider, and saw the servers shut off. The game was only marginally profitable, so it got dropped.

In the second case, the 3rd-party DRM provider went out of business. The developer or publisher could have put out a no-DRM patch, but had no financial incentive to do so.

In the third case, it was a severing of the developer/publisher relationship, which isn't really likely here. Publisher kept supporting the title for a year, and then ceased as they were no longer making sufficient new sales of the old title to warrant continued support.

All in all, I find myself strongly opposed to the current implementation(s) - but not committed enough to the anti-DRM cause to boycott FM for it.

what happens if you have to install it more than 5 times?

What happens if you want to play it in a few years and the activation servers aren't there anymore?

I am seriously amazed at the reaction the DRM decision is getting on these boards.

Come on people, are you honestly telling me that connecting to the internet OR making a 5 minute call JUST ONCE is such a pain in the ass? Please stop going on and on about principles and the "hassle" of authenticating the game prior to playing it. I really wish my biggest problem in life was worrying about a quick call to register a game!

Why would you have to install it more than 5 times? I don't understand that comment at all. I've had FM07 (didn't bother with 08) for 2 years now and I've only installed it ONCE. Why would I need to reinstall it? Even if my computer crashed that's still 2 installs out of 5, and before you comment about losing a token you can uninstall and get it back - that takes, what, all of 2 minutes?

As for the servers not being there in 2 years - yes they will. And even if they weren't you'd be playing FM2011 by then anyway and don't even try denying it.

It is hardly illegal as it is playing by the very rules that have been set out by the company. I will just make sure that any other users of the legitimate copy of the game are aware that they should not uninstall it.

I dislike this type of DRM as it is another step towards pushing the market towards subcription only games, and lets face it, very few games turn out to be worth paying for once never mind multiple times. As such I will exploit these type of rules wherever they are put in place (assuming I purchase the inevitably bug ridden product in the first place)!

Aslong as it is only you that uses the game it is not illegal. Though I don't know how they can prove this

It will not stop me on this occasion. There's 7 games now that I did not buy because of the DRM it contained, FM2009 will be the 2nd that I will make an exception for.

The restrictions in this game are light enough for me to accept them if they'd be patched out after 1 or 2 years, but without that assurance, I'd have left almost any other game for what it was.

what happens if you have to install it more than 5 times?

What happens if you want to play it in a few years and the activation servers aren't there anymore?

Don't you feel annoyed that people who download the game illegally get a completely unrestricted version while you paid for it but have to abide by restrictions?

Seriously you're going to play FM on more than 5 computers at a time? Seriously?

So when FM-2012 is ready to come out, you think there will be an overwhelming cry from the consumers to make sure '09 is still available? I don't think SI needs to make business plans for 1 to 2 percent of their potential audience. Are you still playing CM03/04?

What a strawman argument. I'm annoyed by all software pirates. I don't know what I said to suggest otherwise.

Some people are ridiculous. Someone here mentioned the music industry like it's the buyers who are getting screwed over. It most certainly is NOT the buyers who get screwed over in the music or gaming industry it's the people who make the games and make the music. Their bread and butter is making something for consumers to enjoy and arrogance and ignorance is pushing them out.

Yes some games companies have done some very bad things from DRM but that has nothing to do with FM09, this is a completely different system to what you've seen in Spore for example.

If you think that the rights of the people who make FM and the rights of the people who make music don't matter then IMO you shouldn't have the right to play games or listen to music, cos in the end of it if those rights didn't exist and weren't enforced neither industry would exist and you wouldn't have games and you wouldn't have music.

Stop being so f'ing tight and ridiculous and take some responsibility. You don't campaign against locks to stop people nicking cars do you?

Sorry. Rant over.

Personally, I'm amazed that SI will give buyers so many licenses. I don't know a lot of other software that gives more than one (or maybe two) licenses with any software purchase. Five copies is enough to provide FM to a whole mess of friends, free of charge.