Legal question

Okay me and my brother have both played Football Manager / Championship Manager since the days of the genuis that was Paul Kitson and Tommy Johnson at Derby County!

Every single year we've got one copy of the game because we play it on the same computer. Last month however he's purchased a laptop so there's been occassions we've both been playing the game at the same time having started up using the same CD?

Can someone tell me if this is right? When you buy the game what licence is it you get? Is the game for your use only? Is it for one computer only?

I don't think either of us will object to buying our own copy of FM09 but just want to make sure we're not breaking any rules with FM08?

For FM09 you'll have the licence to install the game on 5 different computers for the first time.

Despite the license agreement that comes with the game stating that you can only install on one machine, we are well aware that many people like to play the game on personal laptops, as well as desktops, and our licenses for Football Manager 2009 will work in a very similar way to ITunes.

This means that you will get 5 licenses for personal use, so you can play the game on up to 5 computers as long as you own them, and the owner of the game is the person playing on said machines. If you uninstall the game on one of the PC's you have the game installed on, you get that "seat" back.

As an example, say you have installed the machine on your work laptop, your work PC, your home PC and your home laptop. You would then have used up 4 out of your 5 uses of the game. Your home desktop has some problems, so you decide to re-install windows on it. As long as you uninstall the game from that machine first, you will get that license back, and when you re-install, will still only be using 4 of your 5 installs.

Please note that the license when you purchase the game is explicit that you are only allowed to use the game for your own personal use.

Also please note that on uninstallation of the game, everything is removed from your machine, including all remnants of the copy protection system which we are using, which was a bugbear of many of the other systems available on the market.

MAC users will still have the same protection system as with other years, although we are hopeful that this will change in the coming years when someone comes up with a similar system for MAC's.

So, what we've aimed for, and have hopefully succeeded on, is a system whereby the legitmate purchaser of the game will notice the copy protection even less than in previous years.

You can install it on 5 different computers (i think) but to play it you need to have the disk in.

think you were breaking the rules with fm08. with fm09 you wouldn't be.

You can install it on 5 different computers (i think) but to play it you need to have the disk in.

Cool.

Think we've just buy two disks to be on the safe side.

I'm worried incase we're both playing at the same time and the online Steam thing see's that and bans us from getting patches or windows updates.

One of my mates says this has happened before.

You and your brother will need a disk each. Pretty sure Miles has confirmed this in this very thread.

You do not need the disk in the computer at point of start up hence the reason why you now have 5 "seats"

I am therefore happy to be able to announce today that, for the first time in the Football Manager series since we started making the game, you will NOT require the disc to be in the drive each time you start the game if you are playing on the PC! Instead, you will need to authenticate your game.

Quoted from Miles himself

Weird, I am sure we all read the same message from Miles and it clearly says that this year ther won't be any copy protection on the phisical disk but rather once you have installed the game, an activation via steam, the phone or online. If this is correct you will not need a cd to play FM just to install it

ARGHHHHH Richie you were faster on this one

I know. I just want to know if this STEAM thing is going to see me and my bro playing at the same time on the same licence and ban us from patches or something?

Look I'm not going to worry about this! We'll just get two copies I think so save the worry!

I don't think so... since there are 5 licenses, you should be able to install it on 5 computers and play at the same time. You won't be able to install it on a sixth one unless you uninstall one of the five copies before hand.

The way I'm reading is that:

i) You can install it on up to five different computers for PERSONAL use only.

ii) You have to authenticate it to play it( phone/onle etc), after that you don't need the DVD in the drive, so assuming there is no copy protection on disk.

So strictly speaking you probably should have more than one copy of FM2009 is two different people, even in the same house, want to play the game on two different PC's at the same time BUT I'm not quite sure how they would know you were doing it if you, like myself and most ppl play FM offline.

OK these are the facts. Legally you were breaking the law for FM08 and legally you will be breaking the law in FM09 also.

The reason for this is as follows. The FM09 license denotes that each INDIVIDUAL requires their own copy of the game. You COULD purchase and therefore install the game on two separate PC's within your home, but only if each install was to be played by you and you alone (obviously it's debatable as to how this can be stopped).

Effectively you would, probably, be connecting through the same external IP address from within your 2 different home PC's and thus the Steam IP parsing will be seeing the same IP and as such will take 1 license per requested activation from your 5 license count, but legally you would still be breaching the "Sole Use" area of the license.

Hope that helps

Incidentally, you won't need the CD in to play the game as in previous versions. Activation will allow you to play with no game disc inserted.

But i think Miles said regardless that you have to have your own copy as its for personal use. You can install it on 5 of your computers but only you can play on them as you own that game. Your bro wouldn't be able to play it though he'd have to buy his own and install his version and use that. Is kinda silly that you'd have to have two installs.

huh.... In practice it should work

Yeah generally speaking it's personal use - unless you make a copy of the actual CD or remove the protection on the files that requires the CD to be in to play noone really minds, it's if you do either of them. With all previous versions it'll be a case of if you haven't copied the disk or removed protection chances are you're not doing anything anyone actually cares about even if strictly speaking it's not completely kosher (eg, more than one person playing the game on one comp, or one player using it on multiple comps)

FM09 they've said it's personal use but I'd imagine the same will follow - if you share a computer and only buy one copy you ain't gonna have the cops knocking on your door. On the other hand if you let 4 friends install off your disk you should feel like a bit of a *****, cos that's milking the system for your own ends illegally. Of course it's hard to track down that sort of stuff but hopefully most of us have a conscience.

I second you completely TheOriginalJez

Oh I agree....there are levels of unwritten understanding about the potential use of a single copy of the game.

The fact remains though that legally, you are breaking the law if you do not purchase your OWN copy of the game to play.

Yeah generally speaking it's personal use - unless you make a copy of the actual CD or remove the protection on the files that requires the CD to be in to play noone really minds, it's if you do either of them. With all previous versions it'll be a case of if you haven't copied the disk or removed protection chances are you're not doing anything anyone actually cares about even if strictly speaking it's not completely kosher (eg, more than one person playing the game on one comp, or one player using it on multiple comps)

FM09 they've said it's personal use but I'd imagine the same will follow - if you share a computer and only buy one copy you ain't gonna have the cops knocking on your door. On the other hand if you let 4 friends install off your disk you should feel like a bit of a *****, cos that's milking the system for your own ends illegally. Of course it's hard to track down that sort of stuff but hopefully most of us have a conscience.

This is strongly the view i have and what i'm sure everyones is. As long as your not taking advantage. What i said is whats supposed to happen

OK these are the facts. Legally you were breaking the law for FM08 and legally you will be breaking the law in FM09 also.

No he wasnt, he was breaking the EULA and EULAs have no weight in law, point out one instance of a person going to court for breaking an EULA.

They dont because they are worthless, as proved by SI telling people to ignore parts of it.

No he wasnt, he was breaking the EULA and EULAs have no weight in law, point out one instance of a person going to court for breaking an EULA.

They dont because they are worthless, as proved by SI telling people to ignore parts of it.

EULAs are contracts recognised by law. Be careful about what you dismiss so quickly.

Thanks TheOriginalJez.....was about to post something very similar

If you and your brother are both playing the game at the same time then you should have one copy each.

I'm lost now as Ter's post seems to contradict Miles'...

As there does not seem to be copy protection that requires the cd to be in the drive, isn't it just like Office 2007 (at least in Belgium) where when you buy the product you get 3 licenses (obviuosly once installed cd is not rquired)?

EULAs are contracts recognised by law. Be careful about what you dismiss so quickly.

No they are not, you cannot enter into a contract without reading it before you do the transaction, seeing as you can only read the EULA after you have completed the transaction, they are invalid.

I really cant believe people are that gullible.

Its Mac. Not MAC. @ M. Jacobson

Look - I can't believe that people can get so confused by this. It's really rather simple.

Fact 1: In order to abide by the license boundaries of the game, each PLAYER/INDIVIDUAL is 'required' to have their own copy of the game, regardless of relationship to somebody who already owns a game, and regardless of the sharing of PC's.

Fact 2: 2 Brothers who share the same PC will almost definitely use the same copy of FM09 regardless of the license phrasing.

Fact 1 is still a "legal" requirement, whilst I understand that fact 2 is almost certain to happen also. SI are not naive enough to think that this would not be the case.

You should get two copies unless your brother is your alter-ego or the two of you are conjoined twins.

Erm, I'm imagining that it'd be like how Steam authentication works currently? You'd need to log into Steam for authentication every time you try to launch the game. You may have 5 copies installed but you can only authenticate and run one at any one time. Hence you and your brother shouldn't be even able to launch two copies of FM09 together and therefore you need two copies (for two sets of authentication).

If you and your brother are both playing the game at the same time then you should have one copy each.

I fully understand this if two people are playing on two separate computers, since each individual should own a licence of the game.

Just to throw a bit of a spanner in the works though, what if you play a two player game on one computer? Just like any X-box/PS 3 game. Surely by your own statement (mentioned previously by Miles I think, in another thread) that each player should have a licence then surely the 2nd player on a two player, one computer game should own a copy of FM as well?

Just curious. Me and my friends won't start playing our on-line or two player games for a few months after the game has been released.

No they are not, you cannot enter into a contract without reading it before you do the transaction, seeing as you can only read the EULA after you have completed the transaction, they are invalid.

I really cant believe people are that gullible.

You don't enter into the contract before you click 'agree'. I'm afraid you need to brush up on your contract law. The transaction prior is between you and the shop you purchase from, the EULA is a contract between you and the publishers (Sega) and SI.

Here's another few legal questions then:

Me and my brother bought FM2008 (we payed half the cost each), and installed it on one laptop, since then we have both been playing it, both with single-player saves and with multiplayer (two managers in the same game). My understanding is that this is perfectly legal, as it had been for every PC game ever released. Is it legal? If not, how long has it been illegal to share PC games like this?

Then I bought Portal, which required me to install Steam and create an account for myself, stopping anyone else from playing it as my Steam login was stored on my user account.

For FM2009, me and my brother intend(ed) to do the same as we did for FM2008. Then it was revealed that FM2009 will use Steam and require authentication. It would obviously be possible to create a joint Steam account to allow the same sharing we had for FM2008, but is that legal?

What you and your brother do is legal I think!

So it's legal if we both use the same computer but illegal if we use two? Everyone else in the topic seems to be saying it's illegal for two people to only have one copy, regardless of whether they're playing it at the same time or not.

You don't enter into the contract before you click 'agree'. I'm afraid you need to brush up on your contract law. The transaction prior is between you and the shop you purchase from, the EULA is a contract between you and the publishers (Sega) and SI.

So, on that basis, are you allowed to take the pieece of software back to the shop you purchased it from if you do not click on the agree button, and therefore do not agree the contract with the publisher?

So it's legal if we both use the same computer but illegal if we use two? Everyone else in the topic seems to be saying it's illegal for two people to only have one copy, regardless of whether they're playing it at the same time or not.

It is technically illegal. A game is sold on the basis that you are buying the right to play the game. Therefore each individual should buy a seperate copy of the game, to buy the right to play the game as an individual.

So, on that basis, are you allowed to take the pieece of software back to the shop you purchased it from if you do not click on the agree button, and therefore do not agree the contract with the publisher?

Don't mix up your purchase from the shop with your contract with the publisher, two entirely different things.

MTC: don't use steam and you'll be fine. It's a moral issue the way SI have done it now, I mean for me I'd say if you're only playing it on one comp and at different times you only need one copy, if then your bro gets a new comp you should get another.

It is technically illegal. A game is sold on the basis that you are buying the right to play the game. Therefore each individual should buy a seperate copy of the game, to buy the right to play the game as an individual.

Don't mix up your purchase from the shop with your contract with the publisher, two entirely different things.

MTC: don't use steam and you'll be fine. It's a moral issue the way SI have done it now, I mean for me I'd say if you're only playing it on one comp and at different times you only need one copy, if then your bro gets a new comp you should get another.

I know they are. But if I don't agree with the contract when I get home and read it can I take it back?

Here's another legal question.....if you don't have a DVD drive the ONLY place you can buy the game is STEAM at their inflated price. Monopoly? Legal?

I think the answer is honesty

Are you willing to give SI double the money, which could possibly help the next game they make, or get one copy, save you money, but let it rot your conscious to pieces over the next year

I know they are. But if I don't agree with the contract when I get home and read it can I take it back?

Depends on the shop I think... Game don't let you take it back if you've taken off the plasic cover. It may not seem fair but it's the way it works.

Here's another legal question.....if you don't have a DVD drive the ONLY place you can buy the game is STEAM at their inflated price. Monopoly? Legal?

Due to the amount of data needed a DVD disk and a DVD drive is needed. Steam offers an alternative so is helpful rather than illegal!

MTC: don't use steam and you'll be fine.

I already have Steam installed on my computer. If I buy the boxed version of the game can I choose not to associate it with Steam?

I believe so, but I'm not 100% sure.

Depends on the shop I think... Game don't let you take it back if you've taken off the plasic cover. It may not seem fair but it's the way it works.

So, I can't see the contract before I buy the game. Once I have bought the game I have to take it home, open it up and start to install it. Only then can I see the contract to which I am going to be legally bound. At this point I have 2 options:

1. Accept

2. Decline

If I decline because I don't agree with what is written then I am stuffed because I have opened the box and now the shop won't take it back. Seems a little bit stupid to me, British law!

Well it's international law really, the eula anyway... I think there has to be some way around taking the game back if it's in its original state minus shrink wrap but not really sure

Well it's international law really, the eula anyway... I think there has to be some way around taking the game back if it's in its original state minus shrink wrap but not really sure

Throw it through the shops window! I was only messing anyway, its just a sod of a law that won't let you see the terms and conditions of what you are buying before you buy it.

Here's another legal question.....if you don't have a DVD drive the ONLY place you can buy the game is STEAM at their inflated price. Monopoly? Legal?

Legal. You should be thankful there is the option to be able to play the game, without a DVD drive.

Legal. You should be thankful there is the option to be able to play the game, without a DVD drive.

Thankful? For what, having to pay more? Or for having to buy something that I would have no other use for just to pay less for the game? Oh yeah, I'm thankful, cheers for that!