Idea for tactics/formations

I would like to link tactics to PPMs. I would like a change to the training module that separates individual training and 'tactic training' to allow a manager to specify what he'd like his players to do in certain circumstances within the formations the team play. This idea came about while discussing the removal of arrows in the tactics screen. SI have alluded to adding PPMs to training to allow altering the way players play within your tactics.

Instead of assigning PPMs to players, I think you should be able to assign PPMs to positions within your tactics. (obviously if the player has the appropriate PPM its much more effective) the longer the players play with the tactic the more accustomed to it they become so eventually they players adopt the PPM naturally. The PPM is only a tendency after all, it doesn't actually mean the player is good at it, that comes from the players attributes. so it probably sits better against the tactics side of the game, not the training.

For example, I'd like to be able to add 'hugs the line' to my wingers in the formation. Players without the PPM do it a little, as they play in the tactics more, they do it more often until they adopt 'hugs the line' as a PPM. New players with the 'hugs the line' PPM would obviously play better in the formation from the start. I think you should be able to assign a percentage time of training to learning your teams tactics, so its a choice between team cohesion or individual skill.

I think a system like this would alleviate many peoples concerns to the removal of arrows aswell as add a new dimension to the game. I wouldn't want to sell my players as it would take the best part of a season to buy a replacement and get him performing in his position.

You could advance this a little, that players that start to do what is asked of them, but don't do it very well, take longer or do not learn the PPM. for example, the "tries killer balls often" PPM in you tactics might be a master stroke, as you've the appropriate player with high creativity and passing. equally, the player might not be creative or enjoy passing meaning they hate the formation and become unsettled, depending on their personality.

It makes sense to me anyway, for example if you asked theo wlacott to 'plays with back to the goal' for arsenal he might not be very effective at it, not play well, get annoyed and want a transfer. Where as if you asked him to 'run down the right wing' which he's quite good at, he'll play even better in a formation that asks him to do that, enjoy his football more, get better average ratings as a result.

I'm not suggesting that all PPMs are introduced to players this way, some obviously would have to be learnt through training or mentoring. Some are definately tactical.

Eagerly awating your comments!

I had a bit of a think, basically what I'm asking for is a link between individual instructions and PPMs.

If a Defender is asked to tightly mark someone consistently and does it well for a number of seasons I think its reasonable to accept that he might prefer to play that way in the future.

An Attacking midfielder asked to play through balls, not to shoot might get the PPM 'looks for a pass instead of attempting to score' PPM. but only if he's good at doing it, he might start to prefer to do it in the future.

A midfielder with mentality set to very defensive picks up 'defends at all times' if such as makelele, he's shown that he is good at doing it.

A position in your formation would be set individual instructions, along the lines of existing instructions with slightly expanded scope. you could tell an attacking midfielder to run down the right wing, if he starts to enjoy it because it suits him he'd take it on as a PPM.

I was thinking if it worked like position, each player had a hidden rating out of 20 for each PPM, the player could get to 10 fairly easily but the last bit to get the PPM would be harder to get. It would allow for endless differences of formations, different players and different styles.

I think its a good idea and makes more sense from a managerial standpoint, I really hope they expand the tactical features and this is one way to do that.

Its the ability to affect how a player plays football that I think is missing. Managers in real life have a massive impact to the development of players. At the moment you get the feeling players develop by themselves with a manager having no real impact on their final skills.

I'd like to be able to tell a player to 'take more people on' in a tactic and then if successful do it for the rest of his career. Telling a midfielder to give more through passes, creates a player than has a large number of assists, high average rating. His tendency is to 'killer balls often' (he gains PPM) and as a result makes it into the england squad. That would be kind of satisfying!

I think a reference to PPMs is also missed from media articles.. but thats a different thread!

Very good idea!

I think this is a good idea. The only thing I have to say is i think ( i'm not sure quite how it would work) is that PPM's shouldn't be central. Instead you would have a list of boxes ( or something) to tick to do with the actions you wished your players to use. If they had the relevant PPM's they would perform better.

So basically what you're saying but with slighty less emphasis on PPMs

I like this idea and if implemented well would be a fantastic addition. It would have to be set to the position and you would be able to pick which ones you would want him to try.

Also, the effectiveness of this to a player could be determined by his mental stats and if he even attempts to try what you are telling him.

Thinking about it this could be an effective way to get what you want out of a system, and improve how some PPM's are gained!

Thanks for the feedback!

Weeman, thats pretty much the way I thought it should work, players developing a PPM for them to use in the future only as a bonus, not as a rule. It should all be linked to the relationship the manager has with the player. A quick tick box to pick the appropriate ones for that position.

I reckon that it should also be linked to training, so that if a player is performing well playing a certain way, such as beating players with pace, a PPM of 'knocks ball past opponents' should appear as his PPM and the corresponding attributes should get a slight boost. Thats the way it'd work in real life if a player is performing doing something specific, he'd develop that skill for the future. Think David Beckham and his free kicks, if he hadn't already have been quite good he wouldn't have got the trait (PPM) and if he hadn't got the trait he wouldn't have scored so many free kicks, so he possible wouldn't have put so much time into training free kicks....

I see it as a way of developing youth to play a certain way, so in the future they'd have traits that would then improve leaving a player the player he is as a result of his first manager who broke him into the first team. something like that anyway!

Think managing a lower league club and developing an attacking midfielder with loads of potential to be a playmaker and then a few seasons later after he'd been sold playing against him in a different team, but playing the same role that he developed into.

I reckon it'd fit well with the current individual instructions, you'd tell a position what you'd like them to do, and you could limit freedom for anything else. so if a player had the opposite PPM he would still play in the role, but by limiting creative freedom he'd do what you told him to do, potentially unlearning the opposite PPM as a result.

I like it as it would mean that just because you splashed out £30m on a new defensive midfielder, it'd take time to make him settle or he might never settle. It'd be more of a gamble.... Making scouting much more important to reveal PPMs. you couldn't splash out millions without having someone see him play and see if he'd fit into your formation. you could change the formation but that might upset other players....etc.

I think it's a brilliant concept and would definately add to the game. It would allow you to shape the way your team play more. To complement the idea you could also ask a player in a certain position NOT to use a specific PPM at all. For instance a strong holding midfielder playing alongside a playmaker, you'd rather that the former wouldn't try a lot of killer balls as he should win the ball and then try a safe pass to a player with more attacking freedom in his role, to really maximize your control and possession in midfield. A player who has that specific PPM might still try a few anyway, as he likes to do them obviously, which should make you rethink his role in the team. As a manager, all of this means you'd have to consider what role in what system a potential transfer target is used to. It's something that's always been missing in previous FM's, and your idea would introduce this notion.

I think it's a brilliant concept and would definately add to the game. It would allow you to shape the way your team play more. To complement the idea you could also ask a player in a certain position NOT to use a specific PPM at all. For instance a strong holding midfielder playing alongside a playmaker, you'd rather that the former wouldn't try a lot of killer balls as he should win the ball and then try a safe pass to a player with more attacking freedom in his role, to really maximize your control and possession in midfield. A player who has that specific PPM might still try a few anyway, as he likes to do them obviously, which should make you rethink his role in the team. As a manager, all of this means you'd have to consider what role in what system a potential transfer target is used to. It's something that's always been missing in previous FM's, and your idea would introduce this notion.

I feel that this is covered by creative freedom sliders already in the tactics. I assume they allow a player to do what he'd prefer instead of what you as the manager want him to do? thats my interpretation anyway!

I reckon that if the 'PPM' type instruction was in the tactics, you'd still set creative freedom for the player but it should exclude the 'PPM' instruction from that. If you tell a midfielder to 'hug the line' but creative freedom to 0, then he'll still hug the line, but maybe wouldn't 'take players on' or 'run with the ball'.

It would allow you to do exactly what you suggested though, tell the player exactly what you want him to do but give him as much freedom as you want to do what he wants if the opportunity presents its self.

Seems to be what would happen in real life.

I feel that this is covered by creative freedom sliders already in the tactics. I assume they allow a player to do what he'd prefer instead of what you as the manager want him to do? thats my interpretation anyway!

I reckon that if the 'PPM' type instruction was in the tactics, you'd still set creative freedom for the player but it should exclude the 'PPM' instruction from that. If you tell a midfielder to 'hug the line' but creative freedom to 0, then he'll still hug the line, but maybe wouldn't 'take players on' or 'run with the ball'.

It would allow you to do exactly what you suggested though, tell the player exactly what you want him to do but give him as much freedom as you want to do what he wants if the opportunity presents its self.

Seems to be what would happen in real life.

It depends, some players might have a habit of pulling of a move that's not really beneficial in his role/position. Or just a plain bad trait (dives into tackles). Specifically asking him not to do that, while you don't want to take away all freedom seems sensible I feel.

Fair point. I'm sure a manager in real life would tell the player off for doing something in a match that he didn't want!

At the moment we have no way of telling a player to do what we want, or as you rightly said to tell a player not to do something!

I do feel that this would add a great deal to the game.

I think this is a good idea. The only thing I have to say is i think ( i'm not sure quite how it would work) is that PPM's shouldn't be central. Instead you would have a list of boxes ( or something) to tick to do with the actions you wished your players to use. If they had the relevant PPM's they would perform better.

So basically what you're saying but with slighty less emphasis on PPMs

agreed

also the number of PPM's a player can have/learn should be limited. and some players shouldn't be able to learn some of them - depending on skill, age...

some of them should be much easier to learn than others (come deep for the ball / dictate tempo).

and I defenetly agree PPM's, tactics, match experience and training should be conected.

agreed

also the number of PPM's a player can have/learn should be limited. and some players shouldn't be able to learn some of them - depending on skill, age...

some of them should be much easier to learn than others (come deep for the ball / dictate tempo).

and I defenetly agree PPM's, tactics, match experience and training should be conected.

I see it not much different from how it works now to be honest. a couple of extra options on the individual instructions screen. I think I'd prefer it not to be explicit which individual instructions developed which PPMs, could possibly depend on where the player got success from.

If you told a player to make forward runs + run with the ball and the player had good technique he might get 'tries tricks', or if he has good pace maybe he'd pick up 'knocks balls past opponent', both could get 'runs down left/right wing' or 'gets forward at every opportunity'

If you play a winger/fullback with his good foot on the wrong side, they might learn 'cuts inside' or 'moves ball to right foot before dribble attempt', or 'uses outside of the foot' or 'avoids using weaker foot' if he's particularly poor with his left foot and he has bad technique.

if you play a creative midfielder and tell him not to shoot, he might develop 'looks for pass instead of attempting to score' or if a playmaker 'dictates tempo' or if he has through balls selected then he develops 'attempts killer balls' or 'plays short simple passes' if his passing is set to short. good anticipation and passing, with passes set to short could get 'plays one twos'. or 'gets into opponents area' if he's had success making forward runs.

If you play a striker and tell him not to shoot from distance and he has good composure he should develop 'likes to round the keeper', or if he's fast and has good anticipation/off the ball should develop 'likes to beat the offside trap'. If he's a strong striker then maybe he should develop 'shoots with power' and if he's not but has good technique and finishing then he should develop 'places shots'. he could get 'comes deep to get ball' if his mentality is consistently set defensively

A player could pick up 'dwells on ball' if he's been asked to make long passes but his anticipation and decisions are poor

etc. etc. etc. The list is endless! It'd get the players tied into a formation, the way the team likes to play would then become a club legacy. You'd not be able to take over arsenal and expect them to play like the arsenal of old immediately (4-4-2, not conceding playing dull, but effective football) as some of the players wouldn't be able to adapt quickly.

You'd get favourite players, that although might not have the CA to achieve at the top level, do achieve, purely because they fit into your tactics perfectly. Experience would then be a massive advantage as players would have played in more teams, more formations and be more versatile (not to be confused with adaptable, thats for the youth)

You could develop a youth team like arsenal, where the young players are ready made to fit into the first team. or a strict tactic where the players know what they need to do to be very very effective (greece when they won the euro championships?!) football isn't just about buying players, its about building a team!

I don't think every player should get PPMs, certainly not immediately anyway, it should take a season or two for them to appear, and only in things they've had success at. It would take encouragement from a manager for them to do the 'skill' and a realisation of success for them to adopt it as their own trait. as a manager you'd have to have a fair amount of involvement in a players development to be able to influence them.

I see it not much different from how it works now to be honest. a couple of extra options on the individual instructions screen. I think I'd prefer it not to be explicit which individual instructions developed which PPMs, could possibly depend on where the player got success from.

If you told a player to make forward runs + run with the ball and the player had good technique he might get 'tries tricks', or if he has good pace maybe he'd pick up 'knocks balls past opponent', both could get 'runs down left/right wing' or 'gets forward at every opportunity'

If you play a winger/fullback with his good foot on the wrong side, they might learn 'cuts inside' or 'moves ball to right foot before dribble attempt', or 'uses outside of the foot' or 'avoids using weaker foot' if he's particularly poor with his left foot and he has bad technique.

if you play a creative midfielder and tell him not to shoot, he might develop 'looks for pass instead of attempting to score' or if a playmaker 'dictates tempo' or if he has through balls selected then he develops 'attempts killer balls' or 'plays short simple passes' if his passing is set to short. good anticipation and passing, with passes set to short could get 'plays one twos'. or 'gets into opponents area' if he's had success making forward runs.

If you play a striker and tell him not to shoot from distance and he has good composure he should develop 'likes to round the keeper', or if he's fast and has good anticipation/off the ball should develop 'likes to beat the offside trap'. If he's a strong striker then maybe he should develop 'shoots with power' and if he's not but has good technique and finishing then he should develop 'places shots'. he could get 'comes deep to get ball' if his mentality is consistently set defensively

A player could pick up 'dwells on ball' if he's been asked to make long passes but his anticipation and decisions are poor

etc. etc. etc. The list is endless! It'd get the players tied into a formation, the way the team likes to play would then become a club legacy. You'd not be able to take over arsenal and expect them to play like the arsenal of old immediately (4-4-2, not conceding playing dull, but effective football) as some of the players wouldn't be able to adapt quickly.

You'd get favourite players, that although might not have the CA to achieve at the top level, do achieve, purely because they fit into your tactics perfectly. Experience would then be a massive advantage as players would have played in more teams, more formations and be more versatile (not to be confused with adaptable, thats for the youth)

You could develop a youth team like arsenal, where the young players are ready made to fit into the first team. or a strict tactic where the players know what they need to do to be very very effective (greece when they won the euro championships?!) football isn't just about buying players, its about building a team!

I don't think every player should get PPMs, certainly not immediately anyway, it should take a season or two for them to appear, and only in things they've had success at. It would take encouragement from a manager for them to do the 'skill' and a realisation of success for them to adopt it as their own trait. as a manager you'd have to have a fair amount of involvement in a players development to be able to influence them.

exellant post mate, I totally agree with everything.

I still think some of PPM's shouldn't exist at all. for example 'runs with ball down right'. if a right winger's best attribute is dribbling than you don't need to have a PPM to say he does dribble down right. it's duplicate attribute (i hope you understand what I want to say here), imo. something like arrows in tactical system. dribbling is his habbit/style becouse he's good at it, not the other way around...

exellant post mate, I totally agree with everything.

I still think some of PPM's shouldn't exist at all. for example 'runs with ball down right'. if a right winger's best attribute is dribbling than you don't need to have a PPM to say he does dribble down right. it's duplicate attribute (i hope you understand what I want to say here), imo. something like arrows in tactical system. dribbling is his habbit/style becouse he's good at it, not the other way around...

I see what you mean about the 'runs with ball down the right' PPM, I've always assumed it was that he liked to run down the wing and so would do it more often in a game. not just that he was good at it with a high attribute

The team I play football for has lots of players with 'PPMs' (things they like to do) that don't match what they are good at. they are the poor players (including me!), the good players in the team, know what they are good at and do it often. you quite often get lads that try and shoot from 30 yards that couldn't hit the side of a bus or lads trying to pick someone out with a 40 yard pass that really shouldn't be attempting it! If we had a manager, and if he was good, I'd imagine that he'd tell certain players to stop doing things they aren't any good at and tell other players they have strengths they don't use and to try and encourage them to do it more often.

What I'm trying to say is that in FM, youngsters should arrive with mismatched PPMs but through training, mentoring, playing and above all good management they should either get better at what they like to do (through training/experience) or be discouraged to attempt their PPM. I guess SI have realised this, with the new training PPM function in the game, but I think it could still be expanded on.

Hopefully PPMs are the way forward, it might remove peoples fixation on CA/PA. The next step for FM would be to remove the AIs fixation on CA/PA as it shouldn't' be the be all and end all of a players performance/value/desireability.