AI experiment. The money has gone

With the current state of english football its hard to imagine no money being at our top clubs, but thats what this experiments going to deal with. Ive changed every clubs finances in he premeirship and champonship to 1 (not 0 as thats a random number in the database) and im going to see what affect this has on english football. Canm they remain dominators of europe or will they fisal out and no longer dominate the champions league. Also what will happen to the best players will they leave now the riches have gone and go to big clubs in Italy and Spain or will they remain in england on less money. Also what will happen to the english national team

I have loaded the top 2 divisions from

England

France

Germany

Italy

Portugal

Russia

Scotland

Spain

Notes: I will be repeating this on FM09 so any ideas for improvements are welcome. Also please post any predictions you have

Good luck GREAT IDEA

Will follow mikey

Actually this is a really good idea. Can I make a few predictions?

Man Utd, Arsenal and Newcastle will be fine as they have 50,000+ stadiums that they regularlly near fill.

Any club predicted to finish near the bottom with a stadium under 25,000 seats are screwed.

The bottom leagues won't be affected very much unless the team has a high wage bill.

After the frist season due to prize money a lot of clubs will be ok.

Big players may leave at clubs like Man Utd and Arsenal etc. as they have huge loans.

thanks for the support and also thanks for your predictions blowcrapup. one thing to consider is health and safety may start closing parts of stadiums if they cant afford the upkeep

It would depend on how its worked out. If its monthly bigger clubs should be fine as their friendly earnings should cover it. It will be a problem at lower levels though. If this goes well for FM09 I would edit all the countries to see how it effects everyone.

first transfer window is going to be quite a suprise

Can't wait for the update then.

Looking forward to the update, good idea, I will be following with interest.

nearly at the end of the transfer window now. Cant beleive the activity of some clubs

lol so suspenseful

Cool I'm constantly checking now.

1 week left. its running quite slowly because i have sio many leagues and im running on full detail

i will do a club by club overview for the premiership but only a general one for the championship. Nearly there now 29th August

This looks like an intresting experiment. I reckon the clubs with debts will struggle to sign people, so could benefit teams like Spurs and co getting into the Champions League. Possibly a pretty shook up table. Lots of players leaving.

arsenal

in none

out no major just four youngsters on loan

aston villa

in Demel 5.75mill

out none

birmingham

in Torrado 7.25, varela 4.2, Beevers 300k, Choto 1.7, Ramzi 2.9, hoyte loan

out none

Blackburn

in Jirank 6.25

out no major just two youngsters on loan

Bolton

in Mendez 8.35,Cabanas 8.75

out jaimeson 30k and 4 loanees

Chelsea

in Maxi Rodriguez 28

out mikel 35, 1 youngster on loan

Derby

in Semberas 3.2, Stranzi 8.25, DeMerit 6.5

out Edworthy free

everton

in Boateng 1mill

out none

fulham

in none

out no major just two youngsters on loan

liverpool

in none

out no major just four youngsters on loan

man c

in none

out no major. Just 3 youngsters on loan

man u

in none

out no major. Just 4 youngsters on loan

Middlesbrough

in Oubina 8.75, Spahic 2.7

out no major. Just 2 youngsters on loan

Newcastle

in none

out Soderbeg 140k

Portsmouth

in none

out none

Reading

in snchez 3.6

out none

sunderland

in none

out none

totenham

in farfan 12.5

out none

West Ham

in none

out none

Wigan

in Kovac 5.25

out none

So a bit of a shock there with many teams spending money they dont have. However it was a reduced transfer window with stars such as Mutu who normally make the transfer over not doing so. Chelsea showed that the top stars will still come by signing Maxi Rodriguez, however in order to get him they did have to sell mikel who becomes the first major player to move abroad.

The championship

The clubs here proved to be more reasonable with only Southampton spending more than they brought in and this by just 70k. Current league leaders Watford made the bigest profit of 6.5million but all of this came off one player as they sold jay mcdermit to Derby

Next update will be fbuary the first where i will also give league position updates and the progress of the english national team

Thats wierd. Although I didn't take season ticket sales into account but no one would have earned over £10m for this. Hmm. Does any teams financial status says insecure?

KUTGW Though

Thats wierd. Although I didn't take season ticket sales into account but no one would have earned over £10m for this. Hmm. Does any teams financial status says insecure?

KUTGW Though

nope there all okay except for arsenal which says rich. However i checked with FMM and some are in negative numbers already

Mikel for £35m?! Surely there's a missed decimal point there.

nope 35 million to inter

so things to think about before the next update. when (or if) will the mass exodus take place. What effect will this have on the national team ( probably to early for it to have had an effect but let me know your opinions)

Possible improvement sfor 09 exp

1) run all british leagues - maybe a more extreme effect in lower leagues

2) possibly start the clubs off in debt rather than with no money

let me know your opinions on these possible improvements and any other ideas

All British leagues would give more of an effect.

Starting the clubs in debt though would be a bad idea as the intial idea of the experiment was to see how they deal with no money and the effects of it. If after say 2 or 3 seasons there is little effect then that would have more of an effect.

Are all the leagues running on full detail as this might effect it.

yeah all leagues are on full detail thats why it takes so long to holiday through. I was considering all english (dont know why i said British) leagues because we would get to see what would happen at a low level where they would strugle to bring in the money, so will probably do that next time. Thanks blowupcrap for your regular comments

Its no prob I like discover things and have far too much time on my hands

arsenal

in none

out no major just 2 youngsters on loan

aston villa

in none

out berger 35k, williams 210k, routledge loan

birmingham

in mvuemba 875k, Taino 1.6mil, hanlon 90k

out no major just 1 youngster on loan

Blackburn

in Jenson 1.9

out no major just three youngsters on loan

Bolton

in none

out no major just 3 younsters on loan

Chelsea

in none

out ferreira 625k, Kalou 13.5, Hutchinson 200k and 1 loanee

Derby

in Fernandes 1.4, vassel 1.4

out Moore 26k and 2 loanees

everton

in none

out Valente 300k, Turner 425k

fulham

in none

out Christanval 140k and 1 loanee

liverpool

in Dalla Valle 85k

out Aurelio 3.1mill and 3 youngsters on loan

man c

in Thomson 3.9, Mitea 4.4

out Mental 45k, Vassell 1.4 and 3 youngsters on loan

man u

in none

out no major. Just 5 youngsters on loan

middlesbrough

in Ferreira 625k

out no major. Just 1 youngster on loan

Newcastle

in none

out Troisi 700k, Carr on loan

Portsmouth

in none

out Mvuemba 875k, Lauren 1.9 Mendes 4.4

Reading

in Janssen 2.9, Carlton Cole 2

out Bikey 1.9, de la cruz 30k

sunderland

in Lauren 1.9, Adam 4, Meerdink 1.5

out Yorke free and 2 loanees

totenham

in none

out Tainio 1.6, Mills 50k, and 1 loanee

West Ham

in none

out Walker 90k, Cole 2, O'Neill 12k and 2 loanees

Wigan

in Sartre 535k, Hutchingson 200k, Mendes 4.4, Mills 50k

out Scharner 4.8, Pollit free and 1 loanee

The Premiership

A much more reasonable transfer window as most clubs woke up to the fact they didnt have much money, especially Chelsea. Still no mass exodus abroad withthe bigest transfer across the channel being wigans Paul Scharner who made the switch to Udinese

Finance watch-- Man Utd insecure

The Championship

blackpool 8k, charlton 18k, scunthore 65k and southampton 355k were the only teams to spend more than they brought in this season showing that once again the championship clubs seam to think that financial stability is the way forward.

Finance watch--West Brom, Cardiff insecure

English National Team qualfied 2nd in group.

Authors Notes

1) Some transfer fees from this summer seam to have changed eg Mikel has dropped to 18.5 unsure as to why possibly something to do with clauses in transfer

2) Despite only 3 clubs being listed insecure finances when i checked with FMM many are heavily in debt, would you like me to list these figures in future updates

Its still weird that loads of people haven't left. On the FMM thing it depends on how long it would take you. You could set a number (for example -£10m) which you could then start to report clubs that hit that figure.

wouldnt take me long at all. An extra 10 mins at most

OK bad news guys this has been a resounding failure. All english teams finances are up (including those releagted from the premiership and they are spending big money in the transfer market. Also many frnch and spanish teams are much worse off thn there english counterparts. With these findings i propose to do a second experiment this time with clubs starting off in debt also this time i will run all english leagues to see what effect it has lower down the divisions. I hope to be able to start this experiment up on thursday so i will put a poll up at the top of the table asking you the amount of debt you think the clubs should start with. Thankyou for your time and patience with this experiment

A few side notes on new experiment

It will be a radical new change on the update system with me no longer typing out all transfers (just major) however there wil be a lot more information in it such as ...

1) finances for clubs from FMM

2) top valued player in england

3) Champions League and uefa cup progress

loads more read the experiment to find out, also feel free to post any ideas for information you would like here

This is one of the reasons i have run this on 08 before 09 comes out so we can get a decent experiment for 09

all figures in pounds sterling

If you are going to do debt down all the leagues why not stagger it. For Example the prem clubs have -£50m Championship have -£40m and so on down to the BSN/BSS having only a small debt. The reason for this is whilst every club having the same debt would result in a more balanced experiment, having a debt of £30m (which I voted for) would be devastating to a BSN/BSS side but almost negliable at the top level as tv money would cover this.

I thought of that but then i thought it wouldnt be a fair experiment as if i did that people could then say man u will get more money than dery so you have to stagger that. However if people want thatpost a comment saying it and i will do it if the majority want it.

I think the staggering would be best as BSN/S clubs find it difficult to come back from like 250k of debt let alone any more

I agree with the staggering suggestion. As long as all teams in a division start with the same debt it's still fair, it can then be compared how/if they recover from it in different way. Mayoo and Newcastle may be safe because of the huge crowds for example, whereas Blackburn and Bolton may see an exodus of players.

Interesting idea here mikey

Maybe a little extra you could add to your next version could be this: take away the club's bread and butter by reducing the ticket and season ticket prices down to a few quid each. This would affect the Premier League clubs much more than the BSP sides to counter the fact that the debt would hinder the lower league clubs more.

thats an idea possibly coould do thatin my 2009 one depeding on how this works out.

How about this for a stagered version

Prem 50

champion 40

league 1 30

league 2 20

bsp 10

bsn/bsn 5

or is that to extreem

I'd go for something more along the lines of

P = 50

C = 25

L1 = 10

L2 = 5

BSP = 1

BSN/s = 250k

But they are just my ideas

Its looks good. Although I think the BSP and BSN/BSS are too much in debt. However like Mikel said 250k is too much for BSN/BSS clubs to deal with so it would be hard to get the amount right. Thinking about it you might want to put the Prem up to 60 to counteract the money playing in Europe brings in.

so hw about

prem 60

champ 30

league 1 10

league 2 5

BSP 1

BSN/BSS 500k

keep postin your own ideas and ill try and wrk out a rough average

Too extreme, BSN and BSS clubs would be totally screwed by a £5million debt. I guess even £100k would be a big debt for them, though someone with more LLM experience could probably make a better estimate for a reasonable figure.

Edit - Slow reply, has already been said.

I'd say Prem - 60, Champ - 20, L1 - 5, L2 - 3, BSP - 1, BSN/BSS - 100k

Actually thinking about it below Championship the prize money isnt that great. How about -

Prem 60

Champ 30

League 1 7.5

League 2 3

BSP 800k

BSN/BSS 500k

so based off what your saying this is what i have so far roughly

prem 60

championship 25

league 1 7

league 2 4

BSP 800k

BSN/BSS 200k

I'd say go with that the upper two are high enough to cancel out the Prem/Europe's high TV money and the lower leagues aren't high enough so that ever club is in administration from the word go.

kk ill start making the database tomorrow and hopefully do an update on thursday. Thanks for all the help. Will probably reduce the leagues to all of france spain and germany though as my laptop aint great

this would be my figures if i was doing the debt database

Prem: 70

Champ: 25

L 1: 7

L 2: 4

BSP: 1

BSN/S: 100k

75m, 25m, 5m, 1m, 500k, 200k

starting to make databas now this is my final staggered one as that is most popular

prem 65

championship 25

league 1 7

league 2 4

BSP 750k

BSN/BSS 200k

will ask dafuge to close this and will create new thread