Reworking RoO and the Libero Defence

Introduction

I have, for a while now, been developing a tactic set consisting of 5 tactics. These tactics are of the 5 that wwfan laid out in his fantastic thread TT&F '08, Control, Attack, Balanced, Counter, Defend. Some of the theories that I am exploring and sharing are down to wwfan, and some have been invented and tested by myself within the 5 tactics. NOTE: Not all of theories I am discussing are neccessarily correct, but have worked thus far for me pretty well. I will show you my systematic method to create 5 tactics with the same 4-4-2 formation, that do not exploit the match engine and rely on realism.

Mentality setup and the rework of the Rule of One

A standard RoO mentality setup for the Attack tactic looks like this:

DC: 14

DR/L: 15

MCd: 16

MR/L: 17

MCa: 18

FC: 19

It creates a pretty solid system capable of defending and attacking, but can we make it more solid defensively and more fluid when attacking? I believe we can. It is a way of linking stratas together defensively and in attack.

Many people have heard the idea of an FCa (usually a fast, pacey striker with good finishing and composure), and an FCd (a more creative striker that helps the build up play of the team). The best thing to do with this FCd in the Attack tactic is to move his mentality to the lower end of the mentality spectrum to the same mentality as the DCs (14), so that he drops deeper and helps ths build up play, as if often required in attacking tactics. Now we have a mentality setup that looks like this:

DC: 14

DR/L: 15

MCd: 16

MR/L: 17

MCa: 18

FCd: 14

FCa: 19

Now this looks interesting. We have a defensive striker (FCd) as the same mentality as the central defenders. Now we have 2 stratas that are linked defensively (a strata just being an area of the pitch that players operate. The fullbacks and the central defenders being 1 strata, the wingers and the central midfielders being another strata, and the forwards being the last strata). Do you see which player we are going to talk about next when we talk about defensive play? Yes, it's the MCd. Now we can complete the defensive link between the 3 stratas by moving the mentality of the MCd down to 14 to have 4 defensive minded players on the same mentality, making the tactic more defensively solid, like this:

DC: 14

DR/L: 15

MCd: 14

MR/L: 17

MCa: 18

FCd: 14

FCa: 19

But Jaswarbrick, why are you neglecting the attacking side of the tactic?! Well i'm getting onto that, and here's where a new idea comes into the foray.

The idea of having a 'DCa' and a 'DCd'

Theorem: All pairs of players operating in the centre of the field (the central defenders, central midfielders, and the forwards) operating in a 4-4-2 formation, work together in partnerships. That is, one forward does a different job to the other forward. One central midfielder does a different job to the other central midfielder, and one central defender does a different job to the other central defender.

But don't central defenders defend and central forward attack?! Yes, they do, but in different ways. One forward, the FCa, uses his acceleration and pace to get beyond the opposition defensive line and use his finishing and composure to finish off attacks, while his counterpart FCd drops deeper to help the build up play and pick up the ball from deep and often run with it. One central midfielder, the MCa, will try to support attacks with forward runs and passes around the 18 yard box, and run with the ball if he is adept enough. His counterpart MCd, will always stay back and protect the back 4 from counter-attacks and hold up the ball while other players get forward. Now the DCd will always stay back and will generally be stronger than his counterpart and will put in tackles more often and often be a no-nonsense defender who is brave and marks forwards more tightly. Think Vidic. His counterpart DCa, will generally be a sweeper-upper if balls get past the DCd, generally will be better in the positioning, faster with better anticiptation. Will be less reckless in the tackle and be there to mop up if the DCd gets it wrong. The DCa will run forward alot in a Control tactic and usually take the ball with him, and even be given a free role in Control. But more on that later. Think Ferdinand.

So we can link the 3 stratas together defensively, but we can now also link them attackingly. To link the 3 stratas together attackingly, we just move the MCa to a mentality of 19 along with the FCa, but now we have another player, the DCa, to also link in with the FCa. So we also move his mentality to 19. So now we have the completed mentality setup for Attack, but we can extrapolate downwards and make a setup for Balanced, Counter and Defend as well.

Defend

DCd: 2

DCa: 7

DR/L: 3

MCd: 2

MCa: 7

MR/L: 5

FCd: 2

FCa: 7

Counter

DCd: 6

DCa: 11

DR/L: 7

MCd: 6

MCa: 11

MR/L: 9

FCd: 6

FCa: 11

Balanced

DCd: 10

DCa: 15

DR/L: 11

MCd: 10

MCa: 15

MR/L: 13

FCd: 10

FCa: 15

Attack

DCd: 14

DCa: 19

DR/L: 15

MCd: 14

MCa: 19

MR/L: 17

FCd: 14

FCa: 19

Control

There is a slight change in the structure of Control as it is used mainly to break down defensive formations and to play ultra-wide and more build-up play is needed. So, the FCa is reduced to 14 for this. The defensive structure is fine as 3 stratas are linked by the same mentality of 14, but in the attacking structure, the MCa is higher than 14 so there is no void in the attacking build-up that can sometimes be created when none of the midfielder's mentality is the same or higher than the forwards, leaving build-up play impossible. But this can't happen here as the MCa is higher than the forward's. This just lets the forwards play balls in to advancing wingers, fullbacks, advancing MCa or even the advancing DCa, instead of going for goal. Control is not supposed to create many one-on-one chances as it is trying to break down defensive teams.

DCd: 14

DCa: 19

DR/L: 15

MCd: 14

MCa: 19

MR/L: 17

FCd: 14

FCa: 14

Note: I have not experimented much in the use of a playmaker, so my suggestion may be invalid, but feedback would be great if someone would like to try. If you wish to use your MCd as a playmaker in Control, no changes need to be made. If you wish to use your MCa, I think it would be wise to move him down to 14 as well, so he can spray all sorts of passes all over the place. Also, forward runs mixed will be better.

For the purposes of the rest of this post, I will need you to understand what I am talking about when I talk about 'Mentality Midpoints'. If we take a standard RoO setup ranging from 14 to 19 for Attack, the midpoint of that is 16. This is important because my systematic process will rely on these 'midpoints' to construct settings for players. So the midpoints are:

Control: 16

Attack: 16

Balanced: 12

Counter: 8

Defend: 4

Creative Freedom and my dismissal of the 'use sparingly' suggestions

2 suggestions often arise about creative freedom and they are as follows:

1. Use sparingly among your players, giving it only to 2 or 3 players and low for everybody else, or

2. Don't ever use creative freedom and keep it on '1' for all players. After all, they are supposed to follow your instructions, not mess around.

Sorry to offend anyone, but I disagree with both of these suggestions. A top team needs creative freedom to break down defensive teams, in order to 'try the unexpected'. Whereas a lower league side needs to keep it simple more often and use less creative freedom. So let me rephrase. I don't disagree totally with suggestion 1, but if players are not given enough creative freedom when they are very skillful, flair-based players, they will not play to their full potential. But suggestion 2 is absurd.

Since players need more creative freedom in a Control based tactic and need to use it alot less in a Defend or Counter tactic, my suggestion for creative freedom is the following.

Control: All players have Creative Freedom set to the 'Flair' attribute + 4

Attack: All players have Creative Freedom set to the 'Flair' attribute + 2

Balanced: All players have Creative Freedom set to the 'Flair' attribute

Counter: All players have Creative Freedom set to the 'Flair' attribute - 2

Defend: All players have Creative Freedom set to the 'Flair' attribute - 4

Why flair? Because flair is the ability to try the unexpected.

So a player with a Flair attribute of 10 should be given the following creative freedom setting:

Control: 14

Attack: 12

Balanced: 10

Counter: 8

Defend: 6

This lets him try the unexpected more when breaking down defensive sides and lets him keep it more 'simple' when looking to defend. This also lets top side with lots of flair players play with much more creative freedom while lower league teams without the excess of flair players will look to keep it simple. So this system is very versatile.

Tempo and its relation to the Mentality Midpoints

My idea about tempo is that it can either 'Match' the mentality midpoint, or it can 'Mirror' the mentality midpoint, mostly dependant on weather conditions. The 'Matched' tempo is equal to the mentality midpoint, while the 'Mirrored' tempo is completely the opposite (21 - 'Mentality midpoint, to be precise). So for Balanced which has a mentality midpoint of 12, the matched tempo is 12, and the mirrored tempo is 21 - 12 = 9. Therefore, the settings for tempo and the reasons why should be roughly as follows:

Control: 5 or 16 (mentality midpoint)

With a tempo of 5, the team will look to create carefull constructed moves to break down the defensive opposition with care. Chances won't be rushed and the opposition will be forced to come out of their shells more. This tempo also works better in dry weather on dry pitches. With a tempo of 16, this will mostly be used in the last 15 mins of a match where the other team are playing defensively and you really need a goal right now. This approach is also better on muddier pitches where you can't spend too long knocking the ball around because it will be easy to lose on the muddy pitch.

Attack 16 (mentality midpoint) or 5

These tempos are similar to the ones above in Control where the tempo of 16 is trying to quickly get the ball to the opposition penalty area and would usually be the choice of tempo for mild or wet weather, and also lower league sides, or the last 15-20 mins of a match. With a tempo of 5, this may suit sides with low stamina levels, i.e. a bunch of old players like AC Milan. Also good for the first 20 or so minutes of a match to get your players some posession or when the weather is dry. A lower league side would most like struggle with a tempo of 5 and would prefer one of 16.

Balanced 12 (mentality midpoint) or 9

While these tempos may look very similar, there are some subtle differences. Firstly in mild or wet weather, a tempo of 12 should be first choice, and also for lower league sides. Why should the tempo be 12 or 9? Because if you think about it, a team with balanced mentalities and mixed forward runs for most players, playing a balanced width, an ultra-fast tempo or an ultra-slow tempo just looks out of place. You want your team to carefully manage risk and reward without trying to get the ball to the other end of the pitch as fast as possible. And neither do you want your team to take all day about it , as this approach is better with Control or a very defensive system. A tempo of 9 is better for dry pitches and this approach is generally best for when you have a 3-0 lead at home or a 2-0 lead away from home, and is generally a most 'keep-ball' tempo. Your players will just pass it around until an opening is found and won't lose too many shots from counter-attacks that the tempo of 12 will do more often.

Counter 13 or 8 (mentality midpoint)

A tempo of 13 is mostly self-explanatory, as it describes a system where your team are playing mostly defensively, and want to catch a goal on the break. Better for lower league teams and on wetter pitches, and will be used by most teams up until the last 20 or so minutes of a match. In the last 20 minutes of a match, a tempo of 8 in Counter works in a similar way to a tempo of 9 in Balanced. Both are generally keep-ball approaches, except that the Counter keep-ball tempo of 8 usually works better when playing a better side and the Balanced tempo of 9 against a weaker side. Tempo of 8 can be used at the start by a top side also.

Defend 17 or 4 (mentality midpoint)

I rarely use Defend, but a tempo of 17 would basically to sit back, wait until the opposition lose the ball, and then snatch them on the break. This approach works very similar to a Counter tempo of 13, except Defend should be used only against very tough opposition. What I can recommend is to use a tempo of 17 until the last 20 minutes of a match, because it is more about looking for a break-away goal, and play a tempo of 4 in the last 20 minutes of a match, to just play keep-ball against a very tough side looking for a goal.

Passing Style and its linking with Tempo

Defender passing (inc. Keeper)

In a Control or Attack tactic, the defenders must pass in one way that allows the central midfielders to get hold of the ball and then they can dictate the play after that. Moving on to Balanced, the defenders must mostly play the balls to central midfielders, but will now sometimes play more direct balls to wingers. On to Counter, and the defenders must mostly hit direct balls with the team playing on the break, hitting passes to wingers and forwards, and MCa. And Defend, the defenders will just clear the ball out of defence onto rushing forwards. I have developed a very simple system for this, and it works by just taking the opposite of the mentality midpoint and setting defender's passing to that. So with a mentality midpoint of 12 for Balanced, the defender's passing will be set to 21 - 12 = 9.

Control: 5

Attack: 5

Balanced: 9

Counter: 13

Defend: 17

Central midfielder passing

For the most part, with central midfielder passing being the fulcrum of the team, the passing of central midfielders will generally be linked to the opposite of the mentally midpoint, with some exceptions. It really is best to describe the passing for each tactic individually, as it can get complicated. For the lowest tempo of every tactic, the midfielder's passing will be equal to the lowest tempo, as it is possible to play a short passing, quick tempo game. But it is very nonsensical to play a direct passing, slow tempo game.

Control

If the team is playing with a tempo of 5, the central midfielders will play with passing of 5 (short). If the team is playing with a tempo of 16, the passing will be increased by 4 notches to best represent the increased tempo, and thus play a passing style of 9 (mixed).

Attack

The lowest tempo is the mirrored tempo of 5, so when the tempo is 5, the passing will be 5 (short), and when the tempo is 16, the passing will be 5 + 4 = 9.

Balanced

The lowest tempo is the mirrored tempo of 9. Centre midfielders will play a passing of 9 for a tempo of 9, but play a passing of 13 for a tempo of 12.

Counter

The lowest tempo is the matched tempo of 8. So they play a passing of 8 for a tempo of 8, and a passing of 12 for a tempo of 13.

Defend

The lowest tempo is the matched tempo of 4. So they play a passing of 4 for a tempo of 4, and a passing of 8 for a tempo of 17.

Wingers and forwards

For every tactic with every tempo, the wingers and forwards will play a passing style that 4 less than the centre midfielders, as they are higher up the pitch and closer to goal.

Width

I use a width setup exactly as suggested by wwfan in TT&F 08. For Attack, Balanced, Counter and Defend, the width is equal to the mentality midpoint, and Control it is increased by 4. Control you need to spread the play open against defensive opposition, whilst keeping it tighter with the more defensive tactics.

Control: 20

Attack: 16

Balanced: 12

Counter: 8

Defend: 4

Closing Down and the 'reduction by two'

Here are my thoughts regarding closing down. I set a sensible (somewhat high) setting for closing down for players in the Control tactic, and then gradually reduce everyone's closing down until I get to Defend. Ideally I want a very high closing down system for Control to win the ball back quickly from the opposition before they can counter, and a very low closing down system for Defend to try and frustrate the opposition and keep them more compact and narrow. Now back to the partnerships of central pairings in a 4-4-2 where I said all central pairings play different roles in a team, and this is also reflected in the way they close down.

Forwards

The forwards work differently by one forward closing down alot, whilst the other one closes down less so that he is more in space to receive the ball when your team wins the ball back. For this, the FCa closes down the most as he is usually the faster of the two anyway and puts pressure on the back line, while the FCd is usually slower and can be used a target man so he needs to be more in space to receive the ball. For Control, the closing down for each looks like this:

FCa: 20

FCd: 14 (6 less)

Central Midfielders

The centre midfielders need to close down differently by having one closing down higher whilst the other one stays in the cover position. The most ideal player to have in the cover position would be the MCd as he, in general, can defend better than the MCa. So for Control, the closing down looks like this:

MCa: 18

MCd: 14 (4 less)

Central Defenders

For this you want your strong, aggressive, brave, no-nonsense DCd into the tackle first, and if misses the tackle, to have your faster, more intelligent DCa in the cover position to sweep up the through balls. The setup for Control then, looks like this:

DCd: 12

DCa: 10 (2 less)

Looking at this, we can see that, in general, the higher up the pitch we go, the more we close down. This is because when the ball is higher up the pitch we want to close down the ball very quickly so that we can have another chance at goal. But once the ball reaches the line of the back four, we have to be more careful. Now what happens is that the opposition have to try something more special to get past the defenders, whilst still having relatively high closing down to win the ball back.

Wingers and Full-Backs

We will always need our winger's closing down to be higher than the full-backs, as it lets the wingers close down to let the full-backs get into a good cover position incase the winger misses the tackle. The setup then, looks like this for Control:

MR/L: 20

DR/L: 14

This follows the same logic as having the players higher up the pitch close down alot, but once the ball reaches the back line, the opposition have to try something more special.

Goalkeeper

Generally I have the goalkeeper at 2 less than the lowest closing down player, the DCa. If the ball manages to get beyond the DCa, the theory is that the goalkeeper will cover it, so for Control, the setting is at 8.

Reduction by Two

So here are the final closing down settings for Control:

Control

GK: 8

DCa: 10

DCd: 12

DR/L: 14

MCd: 14

MCa: 18

MR/L: 20

FCd: 14

FCa: 20

To get the closing down settings for Attack, Balanced, Counter and Defend, we need to gradually reduce the closing down to get a very light closing down system for Defend. To do that, all we do is reduce the closing down by 2 for each tactic.

Attack: Reduce everyone by two

GK: 6

DCa: 8

DCd: 10

DR/L: 12

MCd: 12

MCa: 16

MR/L: 18

FCd: 12

FCa: 18

Balanced: Reduce everyone by two

GK: 4

DCa: 6

DCd: 8

DR/L: 10

MCd: 10

MCa: 14

MR/L: 16

FCd: 10

FCa: 16

Counter: Reduce everyone by two

GK: 2

DCa: 4

DCd: 6

DR/L: 8

MCd: 8

MCa: 12

MR/L: 14

FCd: 8

FCa: 14

Defend: Reduce everyone by two

GK: 1

DCa: 2

DCd: 4

DR/L: 6

MCd: 6

MCa: 10

MR/L: 12

FCd: 6

FCa: 12

Time Wasting and its relation to the Mentality Midpoints

In general, time wasting will be the opposite to the mentality midpoints. That is (21 - mentality midpoint). So for Attack, Balanced, Counter and Defend, time wasting looks like this:

Attack: 5

Balanced: 9

Counter: 13

Defend: 17

But for Control, a small change needs to be made and 5 needs to be reduced by 2 to 3 to represent that you will be playing much more defensive opposition and time wasting needs to be even more minimal.

Control: 3

If in the last 15 minutes you really need to hang on to a lead, time wasting can be increased by 2-4 notches.

Defensive Line

Similar to the suggestions by wwfan in TT&F '08. For Attack, Balanced and Counter, defensive line will be set to the mentality midpoints:

Attack: 16

Balanced: 12

Counter: 8

But for Control, more space is needed to open up the opposition out of their shells, and defensive line will be reduced by 4 from the mentality midpoint. Similarly for Defend, now the opposition needs to be compacted into a tighter space, so the defensive line needs to be increased by 4. With the narrow width and compacted space set by the higher defensive line, the opposition should be frustrated.

Control: 12

Defend: 8

Tackling

Ideally, we want everyone to be tackling Hard in a Control tactic, and everyone tackling Easy in a Defend tactic. So we do the following:

Control: All outfield players tackling Hard

Attack: 5 outfield players tackling Hard, 5 Mixed

Balanced: All outfield players tackling Mixed

Counter: 5 outfield players tackling Mixed, 5 Easy

Defend: All outfield players tackling Easy

Which outfield players to choose to reduce first? Well, first I thought about the whole back four and then one other player, but this doesn't work quite as well because we want our DCd to be a no-nonsense defender whilst his DCa counterpart covers. But also the wingers will tend to 'harry' the opposition instead of diving in to the tackle, letting the full-back get into position much easier. So the 5 players I reduced first are the 2 full-backs, DCa, and the 2 wingers.

Forward Runs

Wide players

The ideal situation is to have both wide players running often in Control, and both to run forward rarely in Defend. This pattern is identical to the TT&F '08 setup:

Control: Wingers Often, Full-backs Often

Attack: Wingers Often, Full-backs Mixed

Balanced: Both Mixed

Counter: Wingers Mixed, Full-backs Rarely

Defend: Both Rarely

DCa

The DCa, Ferdinand type defender has to support the attack sometimes in Balanced and Attack, and whenever he can in Control. Therefore his forwards run look like this:

Control: Often

Attack: Mixed

Balanced: Mixed

Counter: Rarely

Defend: Rarely

DCd and MCd

The DCd always has to stay back so that for every tactic we have somebody in the back line who is there always and not leaving our defence with a gaping hole. So for all tactics, his setting is Rarely. Likewise for the MCd, to prevent from counter-attacks, the MCd has to always stay back in every tactic, and setting for all tactics is Rarely.

MCa

The MCa is required to get forward in almost every tactic, the support the attack and to give the opposition more to worry about. But in a Counter and Defend tactic, he is required to support the back line a little more:

Control: Often

Attack: Often

Balanced: Often

Counter: Mixed

Defend: Mixed

Forwards

In more attacking tactics, the FCd has to help the build up play and drop deeper, and the FCa can't run forward too much to get offside. In more defensive tactics though, build up play will be less and now the forwards can run onto counter attacking balls:

Control: FCa Mixed, FCd Rarely

Attack: FCa Mixed, FCd Rarely

Balanced: FCa Mixed, FCd Rarely

Counter, FCa Often, FCd Mixed

Defend: FCa Often, FCd Mixed

Note: If anybody would like to do some testing for me, they could experiment with the following forward runs setting for forwards. I would greatly appreciate it.

Control: Both Rarely

Attack: FCa Mixed, FCd Rarely

Balanced: Both Mixed

Counter: FCa Often, FCd Mixed

Defend: Both Often

The theory is that both will be heavily involved in the build up play and construct better chances for the team in Control, while in Defend they will try and break away onto counter attacking balls and nick a one-on-one chance.

Run With Ball

I shall only be explicit about full-backs and wingers here. I have seen countless occasions when in a Control tactic the fullbacks have ran with the ball, even with average dribbling stats and get beyond the opposition full-backs. So Run With Ball settings look like this for wingers followed by full-backs:

Control: Both Often

Attack: Wingers Often, full-backs Mixed

Balanced: Both Mixed

Counter: Wingers Mixed, full-backs Rarely

Defend: Both Rarely

The DCa will have often for Control, mixed for Attack and Balanced, and rarely for Defend. FCd and MCa will also have more Oftens.

Long Shots

The aim of a Control based tactic is to carefully work chances instead of taking 30 yard pot-shots at goal, to break down the opposition with care. In a Defend tactic, often long shots are needed because you just won't have the quality to work a good chance against a (probably) much better team. So long shots look like this, with more long shots going to the central midfielders, wingers, and FCa. (The FCd needs to be more involved in the build-up play)

Control: All players long shots Rarely

Attack: 5 players long shots Mixed, 5 Rarely

Balanced: All players long shots Mixed

Counter: 5 players long shots Often, 5 Mixed

Defend: All players long shots Often

Through Balls

With through balls being more risky, they are used in excess in a Control tactic, with them being used rarely in Defend, to keep things more simple. The setup then looks like this, with wingers, central midfielders, and FCd given more through balls:

Control: All players through balls Often

Attack: 5 players through balls Often, 5 Mixed

Balanced: All players through balls Mixed

Counter: 5 players through balls Mixed, 5 Rarely

Defend: All players through balls Rarely

Cross Ball

As with Run With Ball, I will only be explicit about the full-backs and wingers, as these are the most important. Same as in TT&F '08:

Control: Both Often

Attack: Wingers Often, full-backs Mixed

Balanced: Both Mixed

Counter: Wingers Mixed, full-backs Rarely

Defend: Both Rarely

If someone would like to experiment with exact reverse settings, I would be extremely grateful for this. With the settings being both Rarely for Control, and both Often in Defend. The theory is that they will look for passes to other team-mates or try to dribble past the opposition full-backs in Control. Note: This is untested by me so far.

Cross From

Again just for wingers and full-backs. Full-backs will often run contested to the byline in Control (assuming obviously you are using the right version).

Control: Both Byline

Attack: Wingers Byline, full-backs Mixed

Balanced: Both Mixed

Counter: Wingers Mixed, full-backs Deep

Defend: Both Deep

Marking and Tight Marking

The ideal situation is to have everybody on loose-zonal marking in Control so that everybody is in space, and to everybody on man-tight marking in Defend.

Control: All players loose-zonal marking

Attack: 5 players tight-zonal marking, 5 loose-zonal

Balanced: All players tight-zonal marking

Counter: 5 players man-tight marking, 5 tight-zonal

Defend: All players man-tight marking

The 5 players I picked to mark more tightly are the full-backs, DCd, the MCd, and the FCa. The first 3 are obvious, and the FCa to try and make him more on the shoulder of the last defender. You will notice I left out the DCa, as this is because to try and make him mark less heavy and have him sweep up the through balls, whilst the DCd marks more tightly and gets a harder tackle in first, while the DCa covers.

Free Roles and the gradual reduction

The ideal situation is to have an excessive amount of free-roles for Control, and have minimal amount of free-roles for Defend. So, we give a large amount of free-roles in Control, and then gradually remove them through to Defend.

Control: 7 Free-Roles given to full-backs, DCa, MCa, wingers and FCd

Attack: 6 Free-Roles given to full-backs, MCa, wingers and FCd

Balanced: 4 Free-Roles given to MCa, wingers and FCd

Counter: 3 Free-Roles given to wingers and FCd

Defend: 1 Free-Role given to FCd

If people are surprised about the full-backs and DCa, a free-role is the freedom to ignore defensive instructions and roam attacking areas. (quote from wwfan) The full-backs and DCa on free-roles gives an indication that they are to roam attacking areas against defensive sides.

Hold Up Ball

In Control, Hold Up Ball must be used up front to try and overload the opposition penalty area, whilst in more defensive tactics it will be used with more defensive players

Control: Wingers and both Forwards

Attack: Wingers, FCd and MCd

Balanced: Full-backs, FCd and MCd

Counter: Same as Balanced

Defend: Same as Balanced

Focus Passing

As in TT&F ' 08. In Control you need to spread the play wide and open up the opposition, whilst keeping it compact when playing defensively.

Control: Down both flanks

Attack: Down both flanks/Mixed (recognize your stronger players)

Balanced: Mixed

Counter: Mixed, Through the middle (recognize your stronger players)

Defend: Through the middle

Counter Attack

Just used in Counter and Defend, as it a defensive measure rather than an attacking one.

Picking the right version to use

I will split the decision making into 4 different categories, each with sub-categories. Remember, having success with a team is extremely difficult if you do not pick the right version.

Home and you are a favourite

Attack or Control. If the opposition are using short farrows, use Attack. If they have a flat 4-4-2 with no farrows or a 4-1-4-1 with a DMC, use Control. If you start with Attack and the other team have more possession and passing success, switch to Balanced. If you have more possession and can't get a shot on target, switch to Control.

Home and you are an underdog

Balanced or Counter. If the odds are close but they are favourites, used Balanced. If you are big underdogs, use Counter. Switch between the two if you aren't getting posession or passing success.

Away and you are a favourite

Balanced or Attack. If the odds are pretty close, use Balanced. If your are big favourites, use Attack. Switch between Attack, Balanced and Counter if possession is low.

Away and you are an underdog

Counter or Defend. If the odds are pretty close, Counter. If you are big underdogs, Defend. If you are big underdogs, use Defend for 15 minutes and then switch to Counter to try and get a goal, then back to Defend if you get one.

Credit to wwfan, and a small nod goes to Justified as he has helped out with the ideas about a DCa and a DCd.

If anyone wants me to upload the tactics, I will need instructions! But feedback would be great please and I will try to answer any and every question. Thanks.

Just go to filefront (free) for upload.

That's some post. About time we had a new set of theories taking tactical thought to the next level. Seriously impressed.

I especially like the thoughts on mentality. They make a lot of sense. I have a different take on some of these things (esp Creative Freedom and Passing) which I'll be outlining for FM09. However, there's nothing to say I'm right and you're wrong. Just different methodologies from which to choose a playing style. The more the merrier.

Thanks wwfan, very glad you gave feedback. Yeah, passing is the main one I'm still a bit confused about. It's probably the weakest area of my post. I know you were thinking about passing instructions for wingers and which side the FCd and the FCa were on, but you haven't yet mentioned anything. Are there any other definate strengths/weaknesses about my post that you can pick out? Like some things you definately agree/disagree with? What are your thoughts regarding creative freedom?

Thanks.

This is an interesting thread, though I have a different point of view when it comes to closing down cos there is a relationship between defensive line and mentality. Otherwise I think its a great effort. A tactic needs to be balanced for it to work, and you'll be surprised at how much alike a lot of us are going to sound when FM2009 comes out.

Thanks for the feedback rashidi 1. What are your thoughts regarding closing down?

Passing: I'll give you a hint. You need to think about which tactics need a solid base from which to build and which need to clear their lines quickly. You then need to think about what type of passing will outdo an undermanned defence versus which type is required to consistently pick out players in space against a packed defence. Then logically link them together for each of your five tactics.

Creative Freedom: You are thinking like me and pushing the boat out with regards to how much you are willing to set. However, I would tend to link it to how I want specific players to operate within the confines of a tactic, rather than linking it directly to tactic type and attributes.

upload please

Very nice post. Was getting a little bored of the RoO1's and 2's etc. Although they are fantastic i think it was time that someone offered their fresh ideas, and i think i agree more with yours.

Great post.

upload please

Ok, i'll upload them soon.

I wrote all the instructions down in an attempt to put this tactic set together, but there is information missing.

A lot of GK instructions are not there, plus "Team" instructions (as opposed to individual) and no mention of Farrows/Barrows etc.

I may have missed a couple of things due to it being such a large post? but would really like to give this set a try.

I realise i would have to set my own Creativity settings as these are taken from each individual players flair stat, but thats easy enough if you upload the tactic set.

Cheers

Alright Hammer1000. Yeah, I didn't intentionally leave out GK instructions but just forget due to there being alot of other stuff. I'm still contemplating the right mentality setting for GK. My initial thoughts were 1 less than the DCd (13 in Attack and Control), but then I was thinking 14 to link the DCd and the GK defensively, but I have also been toying with the idea that if you want him to act as a 'sweeper keeper' to have him on a mentality the same as the DCa (19 for Attack and Control), but at the moment he is the same as the DCd.

I have a new laptop now so I will recreate the same set because I know off by heart how to do all of the settings anyway so won't take me longer than about 20 minutes. Thanks for your patience.

p.s. There is no farrows in Defend, short farrows for the wingers in Counter and Balanced, and long farrows for wingers in Attack and Control. Also, you don't even need to use farrows but they are there anyway.

Alright Hammer1000. Yeah, I didn't intentionally leave out GK instructions but just forget due to there being alot of other stuff. I'm still contemplating the right mentality setting for GK. My initial thoughts were 1 less than the DCd (13 in Attack and Control), but then I was thinking 14 to link the DCd and the GK defensively, but I have also been toying with the idea that if you want him to act as a 'sweeper keeper' to have him on a mentality the same as the DCa (19 for Attack and Control), but at the moment he is the same as the DCd.

I have a new laptop now so I will recreate the same set because I know off by heart how to do all of the settings anyway so won't take me longer than about 20 minutes. Thanks for your patience.

p.s. There is no farrows in Defend, short farrows for the wingers in Counter and Balanced, and long farrows for wingers in Attack and Control. Also, you don't even need to use farrows but they are there anyway.

Nice one!

Just easier to d/load yours than take the chance of missing something if i do it myself.

Really nice post

Going to try the more attacking settings of the DCa- its not something Ive tried before and sounds interesting.

With regard to tackling and closing down; these are things that I partially control on the Opposition Instructions panel for every game. So (typically but not always) it'll be hard tackling / closing down always on MC players, key players (a skilfull FC'd); hard tackling also on players with low bravery (scare them out of the 50:50's); closing down always on low pace / acc / dri CF's and wingers; and closing down always on the GK plus DC's if playing a high tempo / high D-Line.

What OI do you use as (in my opinion) these tend to overrule the other tactic instructions that your team may have.

Balanced is ready just going to filefront now.

Balanced: http://files.filefront.com/4+4+2+Balancedtac/;11989950;/fileinfo.html

Others will follow shortly.

Balanced: http://files.filefront.com/4+4+2+Balancedtac/;11989950;/fileinfo.html

Others will follow shortly.

Nice one mate!

Jawswarbrick

What were results like in testing?

I've been using the split mentality CB set up for sometime, with good results over a range of tactics together with free roles on more attacking tactics. IMO free roles tend to underperform for defend tactics so agree with your use, however not had much luck when increasing beyond two wingers.

No problem.

Attack: http://files.filefront.com/4+4+2+Attacktac/;11990047;/fileinfo.html

knap, very fluid looking attacks with the high amount of free roles, looks nice to watch, especially with the reworked mentality settings have 3 central players on one mentality setting and the other 3 on another. Free roles are very important for attacking tactics.

Counter: http://files.filefront.com/4+4+2+Countertac/;11990161;/fileinfo.html

I'm really pushing for time as I have to go and collect my neice from school so i'll try my best to get Control up, but certainly won't have time for Defend until later on.

Counter: http://files.filefront.com/4+4+2+Countertac/;11990161;/fileinfo.html

I'm really pushing for time as I have to go and collect my neice from school so i'll try my best to get Control up, but certainly won't have time for Defend until later on.

Can you point out what instructions we have to tweak ourselves (creativity for instance)?

Cheers

Ok and Control: http://files.filefront.com/4+4+2+Controltac/;11990247;/fileinfo.html

Defend will have to be later.

Creative freedom is the only instruction that definately needs tweaking. Just follow my guidelines from the first post to set up creative freedom. The other is passing and tempo but they don't have to be tweaked like creative freedom does. I will post more information later.

I found your idea interesting and was very optomistic... but after 2/3 of a season with burnly i'm not impressed. I brought in some good players to an already reasonbably strong squad.

I found i lost too many. I always have more possesion than the other team but can't win. I've had some shoking defeats... 5-2 the most memorable. in a game i had 57% of the possesion!!

sorry... good idea, but didn't work for me

Well researched etc by the OP, but ultimately, 4-4-2 fails in FM08. I have played thousands of matches trying various flavours of 4-4-2 to work. Sets from all of the eminent tactical posters wwfan etc. The formation does not work in the long term. 1 striker formations or using exploitative tactics is the only way to have consistent success winning trophies ingame.

Got to say, i was really looking forward to using this set, but after playing around with it since the upload, i'm afraid i've seen nothing that convinces me that this system will work consistently? shame

Individual player errors were absolutely rife until i took away ALL the creative freedom (not sure individual player creativity should be linked with flair?) still a good few mistakes but a large decrease at least.

Have to agree with what pms2007 said about 4-4-2, i've tried many of my own and probably everyone available to download, but have found absolutely NO consistency.

I used wwfans set in the past with much the same results, it appears solid defensively, but the AI tend to score from about 80% of attacks (mainly set pieces)

Its also weak in an attacking sense (at least with Ashton and Bellamy) and my cross completion was often 0%

Never mind

I'd just like to defend the OP here. From memory, he was developing these tactics while managing Liverpool. For a top quality Premiership side, I don't think there is much wrong with any of his ideas. However, for lower level sides or flaky ones (respectively Burnley and West Ham) the extremity of the settings will cause some playing issues. Less good defenders are going to struggle with the DCa role and the high CF/free roles are going to generate chaotic football in an ungelled squad.

As for the statements about it being impossible to design a 4-4-2, it's getting a little repetitive. It's the only formation I used in FM and FML and did I did pretty well in both. It might not be as easy to design as a one-striker formation, but it is plenty possible.

I can't download the control tactic. There's something wrong with the link

With regard to tackling and closing down; these are things that I partially control on the Opposition Instructions panel for every game. So (typically but not always) it'll be hard tackling / closing down always on MC players, key players (a skilfull FC'd); hard tackling also on players with low bravery (scare them out of the 50:50's); closing down always on low pace / acc / dri CF's and wingers; and closing down always on the GK plus DC's if playing a high tempo / high D-Line.

What OI do you use as (in my opinion) these tend to overrule the other tactic instructions that your team may have.

Hi Surferosa. I think AI is, arguably, most important against the forwards. If a striker has very high acceleration and pace which is higher than your fastest defender, you need to close down never, easy tackling and show onto weaker foot if he has a 'weak' or 'very weak' foot. Also drop the defensive line by 2 and if both strikers are faster, use the same instructions for both and drop the DL by 4.

A player with bravery 9 or less hard tackle, anyone with weak or very weak foot, show onto weaker foot. Players with a pace of 9 or less close down always. Tight mark always, close down always against the 'shoots from distance' PPM.

If you try and close down alot of players it can ruin the shape of the formation.

I found your idea interesting and was very optomistic... but after 2/3 of a season with burnly i'm not impressed. I brought in some good players to an already reasonbably strong squad.

I found i lost too many. I always have more possesion than the other team but can't win. I've had some shoking defeats... 5-2 the most memorable. in a game i had 57% of the possesion!!

sorry... good idea, but didn't work for me

Which version did you use. Did you change versions throughout the match or did you just stick with one tactic. It's extremely important to pick the right version and you may have done better switching to a more defensive tactic if they looked like they were ripping you apart, which they probably were, but you did nothing about it, so they scored.

Well researched etc by the OP, but ultimately, 4-4-2 fails in FM08. I have played thousands of matches trying various flavours of 4-4-2 to work. Sets from all of the eminent tactical posters wwfan etc. The formation does not work in the long term. 1 striker formations or using exploitative tactics is the only way to have consistent success winning trophies ingame.

*Sigh*. The point of this thread was to create a tactic set which didn't exploit the match engine and used realistic tactical setups. Any remotely clever human will understand that this isn't a single-flavour tactic that uses the crazy arrows or lone striker formation, or two strikers with sarrows and an AMC with a farrow to just rip the engine apart.

If you learn how to best use each tactic in each situation, you will reward yourself with the knowledge that you can beat the AI without cheating.

I'd just like to defend the OP here. From memory, he was developing these tactics while managing Liverpool. For a top quality Premiership side, I don't think there is much wrong with any of his ideas. However, for lower level sides or flaky ones (respectively Burnley and West Ham) the extremity of the settings will cause some playing issues. Less good defenders are going to struggle with the DCa role and the high CF/free roles are going to generate chaotic football in an ungelled squad.

As for the statements about it being impossible to design a 4-4-2, it's getting a little repetitive. It's the only formation I used in FM and FML and did I did pretty well in both. It might not be as easy to design as a one-striker formation, but it is plenty possible.

Thanks wwfan. It was Man Utd by the way, as I wouldn't touch Liverpool with a barge pole.

I think people tend to dismiss the importance of morale and squad gelling and I have a suggestion for those people:

Until your team has properly gelled and morale is good on the whole, try to stay away from Control and use Attack and Balanced instead. A tempo of 8 Balanced tactic can do a similar job than Control in that it is pretty patient and probing. Once you have a gelled squad you can then expand into using Control and you should see some nice results.

I can't download the control tactic. There's something wrong with the link

Are you sure ron.e? I just tried the link and it seems fine.

Thanks wwfan. It was Man Utd by the way, as I wouldn't touch Liverpool with a barge pole.

My bad. Sorry. It was my suggestion that you tried to recreate the Hansen role of the 80s Liverpool team that stuck in my mind.

I'd just like to defend the OP here. From memory, he was developing these tactics while managing Liverpool. For a top quality Premiership side, I don't think there is much wrong with any of his ideas. However, for lower level sides or flaky ones (respectively Burnley and West Ham) the extremity of the settings will cause some playing issues. Less good defenders are going to struggle with the DCa role and the high CF/free roles are going to generate chaotic football in an ungelled squad.

As for the statements about it being impossible to design a 4-4-2, it's getting a little repetitive. It's the only formation I used in FM and FML and did I did pretty well in both. It might not be as easy to design as a one-striker formation, but it is plenty possible.

If thats the case then i apologise.

I must point out though that success with one of the "Big Four" is as simple as choosing a default tactic and thats it, there is absolutely no need to do anything else.

If someone could come up with a 4-4-2 that can get "Mediocre" and/or "Poor" sides to overperform a little? i'd love to try that.

Hi Surferosa. I think OI is, arguably, most important against the forwards. If a striker has very high acceleration and pace which is higher than your fastest defender, you need to close down never, easy tackling and show onto weaker foot if he has a 'weak' or 'very weak' foot. Also drop the defensive line by 2 and if both strikers are faster, use the same instructions for both and drop the DL by 4.

A player with bravery 9 or less hard tackle, anyone with weak or very weak foot, show onto weaker foot. Players with a pace of 9 or less close down always. Tight mark always, close down always against the 'shoots from distance' PPM.

If you try and close down alot of players it can ruin the shape of the formation.

That pretty close to what I do.. although I shy away from the closing down never setting- Ive seen too many goals where the SC just runs straight at your goal without being challenged with this setting. If Im up against a good speed merchant, I'll normally put him on tight marking (with best marker), hard tackling and play a lower d-line. If Im away and underdog, I may man mark him with two players (a DMC).

One observation though- the OI has a massive impact on tactical perfomance. I think it would be wise for those people who may have hastily judged the formation to restart using the above.

I think people tend to dismiss the importance of morale and squad gelling and I have a suggestion for those people:

I have a suggestion for them to: it always makes me laugh when I see people so quick to dismiss something. Where was your benchmark in these tests anyhow? If you start as a new team, buy loads of new players; with a new formation- you can't look at that as a fair test. Wheres your benchmark? Hardly an empirical approach, is it?

I must point out though that success with one of the "Big Four" is as simple as choosing a default tactic and thats it, there is absolutely no need to do anything else.

To be frank- thats garbage. Have you ever done this? If so, which standard tactic brought you success?

To be frank- thats garbage. Have you ever done this? If so, which standard tactic brought you success?

This is with Chelsea, using standard 4-4-2 and 4-4-1-1 absolutely untweaked, no corner routine or anything.

http://img208.imageshack.us/img208/7717/standardchelseaepl15gamrm6.jpg

4-4-1-1

I stopped reading after this.

Joke. I read it all. But seriously, a 4-4-1-1 is a lone striker formation and this is just about using a 4-4-2. Some scepticism has to be in order when reading your post.

I stopped reading after this.

Joke. I read it all. But seriously, a 4-4-1-1 is a lone striker formation and this is just about using a 4-4-2. Some scepticism has to be in order when reading your post.

If you knew me as well as Cleon and wwfan, you would know that cheating is the very last thing i would do.

I do get your point about the 4-4-1-1, although i'm tempted to go back and try it again solely using the default 4-4-2.

I know you're GarryWHUFC from FM-Britain. Not saying I know you as well as they do, but I know you won't cheat but also think the AI cheat.

Why not try mine again? Don't use Control until you have a gelled squad and try and stay conservative whenever you can until your squad is gelled and has very good morale across the board. Then expand.

Try to find a DCa with Pace, Anticipation, and Positioning, whilst finding a DCd with Marking, Tackling and Strength.

Hope this helps, and hope you give my set another shot. Do you want me to upload Defend?

I know you're GarryWHUFC from FM-Britain. Not saying I know you as well as they do, but I know you won't cheat but also think the AI cheat.

Why not try mine again? Don't use Control until you have a gelled squad and try and stay conservative whenever you can until your squad is gelled and has very good morale across the board. Then expand.

Try to find a DCa with Pace, Anticipation, and Positioning, whilst finding a DCd with Marking, Tackling and Strength.

Hope this helps, and hope you give my set another shot. Do you want me to upload Defend?

No problem mate, i'll have another go!

I do have Ferdinand (DCa) and Upson (DCd) who are both solid (and overated, lol) on this game.

Yeah, upload the Defend tactic, cheers.

This is with Chelsea, using standard 4-4-2 and 4-4-1-1 absolutely untweaked, no corner routine or anything.

http://img208.imageshack.us/img208/7717/standardchelseaepl15gamrm6.jpg

Fair enough mate- I guess Im sceptical becuase I tried the standard formations when FM08 game out, had no success with them (as expected), and began trying to work out the ME from tweaks. Thats not to say they can't be though; just that thay wern't for me. Garbage was prolly too strong a word

One of the things I try to do with any formation test is to empirically say whether a formation tweak has improved team performance or not: so I'll look at measuring expected results against what has been expected. I try and do this on a match situation basis (ie test an 'Attack' condition with various settings). I also try and use a certain degree in contol in the experiements (same team, OI, team talk, etc) and then measure outcomes based on that.

Its really long winded- and probably very boring to most- but I do find it gives you a more precise methodology for tactic tweaking than a simple half season test (which can vary massively).

Yeah, you can't measure 'consistent success' after 16 league games. It is extremely high variance.

Remember what I said about not over-expanding until the squad has gelled. Ferdinand was a good signing. He is just the right DCa you want.

Defend: http://files.filefront.com/4+4+2+Defendtac/;11999223;/fileinfo.html

Hi Jaswar. Love the thread; very interesting. I'm going to try the ideas you suggest on my current save (saving where I am at the moment seperately, in case it goes Pete Tong!), just to see how I get on. The added bonus being at least the squad have gelled.

I'm going to apply it to my own formation though, not a 4-4-2. Just out of interest - have you tried your ideas on anything other than that formation? At the moment I'm playing with Rangers in the English Premier League, using

-----sc-----

--amc-amc--

---mc-mc---

-----dmc----

dl-dc--dc-dr

-----gk-----

I'm going to try it anyway, was just wondering if you had.

Hi Jaswar. Love the thread; very interesting. I'm going to try the ideas you suggest on my current save (saving where I am at the moment seperately, in case it goes Pete Tong!), just to see how I get on. The added bonus being at least the squad have gelled.

I'm going to apply it to my own formation though, not a 4-4-2. Just out of interest - have you tried your ideas on anything other than that formation? At the moment I'm playing with Rangers in the English Premier League, using

-----sc-----

--amc-amc--

---mc-mc---

-----dmc----

dl-dc--dc-dr

-----gk-----

I'm going to try it anyway, was just wondering if you had.

Haven't tried the setup with another formation, no. You'll want to use your DCd with the same mentality as the DMC, MCd, and AMCd. And then another mentality for your DCa along with the MCa, AMCa and the FC. Mentalities will look like this:

Control

GK, DCd, DMC, MCd, AMCd, FC: 14

DCa, MCa, AMCa: 19

DL/R: 15

With your AMCd guy being the one helping more with the build up play with forward runs Rarely, while the AMCa supporting the attacking regularly with forward runs often.

Also aim to alternate the sides that the 'd' guys and the 'a' guys are on. For example if your DCa is the right-sided DC, look to have your MCa on the left, and your AMCa on the right. And if your DCd is on the left, have your MCd on the right, and AMCd on the left.

Forward runs for the full-backs will need to be the same as what wingers are in a 4-4-2, also run with ball, cross ball, cross from need to be the same as what wingers are in a 4-4-2, due to lack of width in your formation. Width doesn't need to change though.

Attack mentalities

GK, DCd, DMC, MCd, AMCd; 14

DCa, MCa, AMCa, FC: 19

DL/R: 15

The FC needs to be involved in the build up play more in Control, but can attack the opposition defensive line more in attack. Forward runs Rarely in Control, Mixed in Attack.

i cant download files in filefront..no idea why..

mind to put it on other server?

@JWB

Thanks very much for that, mate. I'll give it a go and let you know how I get on. I might also start a new save with the 4-4-2 and see how it works out for me.

Yeah, I noticed the alternation of the attacking/defending central roles when I downloaded the 'balanced' file.

Regarding the lack of width - the two AMCs are breaking quite wide, so I'll see how it goes before applying runs to the full-backs.

Alright get them from fm-britain.co.uk in the tactics forum. If not then i'll upload them somewhere else tomorrow.

Alright get them from fm-britain.co.uk in the tactics forum. If not then i'll upload them somewhere else tomorrow.

thanx..its very impressive..scoring a lot of goals..

but when im against striker who could dribble, my back is totally exposed..any ways to tweak it to hav a DM?

I think people are taking these tactics way too realisticly. Thats not the right word, but what i'm trying to say is that if you are having troubles (want a dm, arent scoring consistently) then you can't be afraid to tweak them yourselves. These are not tactics that you can just leave and win every game 4-0. These are possibly the most realistic tactics i've seen and let you play the game as it should be played, as a manager.