Tactics!! No one seems to want more?????

Obviously there hasn't been any announcements yet about this in the new game and I'm sure there will so, without getting too far ahead of myself, I would like to ask why not many people seemed to be that bothered about this area of the game. Or am I wrong?

It has its own forum, where some of us get 'bothered' often enough.

So i'm not the only one who is "bothered"? Or maybe "bothered" is the wrong word but interested. A tactical battle's always a nice part of football but I think FM's options leave a little to be desired. There not rubbish or badly lacking depth but just,... well I've already said...

I'm not sure what you're asking for. More AI tactics, more tactical options?

I'm not sure what you're asking for. More AI tactics, more tactical options?

More tactical options. Though I have always wondered, when you look closely, just how often you do find yourself facing a Bolton like team for example.

More tactical options. Though I have always wondered, when you look closely, just how often you do find yourself facing a Bolton like team for example.

Ahh, I see

Miles did hint at improvements in tactics so let's wait and see.

imo more tactical options will give more advantage against the AI, making the game easier, making the game more boring.

imo more tactical options will give more advantage against the AI, making the game easier, making the game more boring.

No, not at all. I'm not for making the game easy or anything like that. Challenge and realism is good. Anyway on a slightly different note, since it has come up, I Really don't underatand it when people say "too much stuff will ruin it". How can that be? I mean, and this is deliberately over the top, if you had the option to tell your team every possible thing said in real life, and the option to do almost everything availible to a real life managers, in the game and it worked and the game could handle it and si some how came up with the technology to make it, why would that be bad? The game strives to improve and improve and improve.

There were some requests for some more tick boxes in player instructions - akin to "cut inside" "come deep" (for a striker) etc, some time ago (by DaveC iirc) however the only confirmed tactic change is the removal of silly arrows.

See, I think the response count to this thread proves the point of this post. Or maybe it just don't seem very interesting? Really, maybe I'm wrong but does nobody else see this as an important feature?

See, I think the response count to this thread proves the point of this post. Or maybe it just don't seem very interesting? Really, maybe I'm wrong but does nobody else see this as an important feature?

I think people are waiting until FM09 is out before passing judgement....

There were some requests for some more tick boxes in player instructions - akin to "cut inside" "come deep" (for a striker) etc, some time ago (by DaveC iirc) however the only confirmed tactic change is the removal of silly arrows.

That tick box's are not nessecerily a bad idea. What is this about the arrows? So they've definately gone now? Were they so bad? Too many questions?

I think people are waiting until FM09 is out before passing judgement....

Yeah, that does somewhat undermime the whole point of this but there's not much else about the game to talk about at the moment. I can't do FM 08 anymore.

That tick box's are not nessecerily a bad idea. What is this about the arrows? So they've definately gone now? Were they so bad? Too many questions?

They caused the ME to create too many low quality chances by nerfing AI marking - which is what mostly caused the supposed "superkeepers".

We now have F-arrows and b-arrows only indicating the extent of fwd runs.

This was mentioned some time ago by wwfan, as it was implemented in FML.

They caused the ME to create too many low quality chances by nerfing AI marking - which is what mostly caused the supposed "superkeepers".

We now have F-arrows and b-arrows only indicating the extent of fwd runs.

This was mentioned some time ago by wwfan, as it was implemented in FML.

Right. Another problem, I have always found with the arrows when it comes to strikers who like to drop deep, is that pointing an arrow backwards has always, strictly speaking, meant that they become "attacking midfielders" and so never really perform as well. Someone like Rooney or Van Persie, I want them to play the Bergkamp role, so maybe a "drop off" tick box is needed to achieve this.

Right. Another problem, I have always found with the arrows when it comes to strikers who like to drop deep, is that pointing an arrow backwards has always, strictly speaking, meant that they become "attacking midfielders" and so never really perform as well. Someone like Rooney or Van Persie, I want them to play the Bergkamp role, so maybe a "drop off" tick box is needed to achieve this.

I use mentality and fwd runs to control where my strikers play and move to - it just requires a bit of thought but you can get the desired results fairly logically without tick boxes.

With my 4-4-2 i like to have one striker come deep and link play while the quicker striker hangs on the last defender (which i suspect is what you're looking for?) so i assure you, it can be done

Mentality in particular can seem a bit vague. I assume it means, if set to attacking, to pass forward at every opportunity but how does this effect the mentality of the players runs and enthusiasm to support attacking play? If you want a player to drop off but still be positive in his passing maybe "Distribution mentality" should be included as well as "running mentalily"

Mentality in particular can seem a bit vague. I assume it means, if set to attacking, to pass forward at every opportunity but how does this effect the mentality of the players runs and enthusiasm to support attacking play? If you want a player to drop off but still be positive in his passing maybe "Distribution mentality" should be included as well as "running mentalily"

Someone tell me this is rediculous.

From the video, Miles has hinted that there will be changes in this area but he would wait until the blogs to address them. It is commonly known that:

A: there won't be any more arrows

B: the consensus of opinion is that this has significantly improved the ME

This undoubtedly means that certain tactical approaches will have to be considerably rethought. I also see it being the final death knell of the super tactic. However, as to other changes, you, like the rest of us, will have to wait until the blog. A thread such as this could be best utilised by suggesting exactly what you what like to see and why.

From the video, Miles has hinted that there will be changes in this area but he would wait until the blogs to address them. It is commonly known that:

A: there won't be any more arrows

B: the consensus of opinion is that this has significantly improved the ME

This undoubtedly means that certain tactical approaches will have to be considerably rethought. I also see it being the final death knell of the super tactic. However, as to other changes, you, like the rest of us, will have to wait until the blog. A thread such as this could be best utilised by suggesting exactly what you what like to see and why.

I've said before. Tactics changes ARE yet to be announced so this might be irrelevent and I look forward to those. I'm sure they will be great. As is at the moment, what I have put above with "passing menatility" and "running mentalily" might be a good idea. So as to provide clarity between the two. Something else I have always wanted is the ability to tell a specific player to pass to, as much as possible, to another specfiic player.

If I'm Man U and think that Neville is good at long balls, I want to instruct him to use this ability and look to hit diagnal long passes to Nani, who is player on the left wing, as much as possible. I think Nani is quick and that also the opposing right back is slow and positionally poor and want to exploit this. The position that Neville will generally find himself in throughout the game is perfect to exploit this. I don't neccercirely want all my team to look for this pass as some of them are not not so good at picking a pass and I would rather they kept it simple. I could set Nani as a playmaker but then some of my less skilled players will look to find him and fail. Also the position they find themselves in, when occupying possesion, is not as surprising as Neville's. I could set him as target man and set long balls to the team, however I don't want my team to play long balls. I want them to play short patient passing but I want to mix it up at times and Neville to especially.

I am aware of the options currently avaliable on the game but really I don't see how this is achievable. Also this is something that is used in real life. You may say, surely you want all your team to exploit this and generally, yes. But the position of the pass and from which sector of the pitch can cause even more surprise and effectiveness. Ok I'm done . Please think about this.

There are already two 'pass to' options in the game. One is 'Use playmaker' the other 'use TM'. Neither do specifically what you ask, but they do exist.

Personally, I believe that level of passing detail would be detrimental. I don't think any manager would instruct his DR to hit long, cross field balls to his ML as standard. He may tell the team to focus passing down the left flank so the ML can take advantage of a slow DR, but as a specific instruction passing instruction for one player, I doubt it. It is far too limiting.

Using a combination of 'focus passing down left' plus 'DR = long passes' and making Nani a TM with 'run onto balls' might get Neville looking for these balls when the opportunity arises.

There are already two 'pass to' options in the game. One is 'Use playmaker' the other 'use TM'. Neither do specifically what you ask, but they do exist.

Personally, I believe that level of passing detail would be detrimental. I don't think any manager would instruct his DR to hit long, cross field balls to his ML as standard. He may tell the team to focus passing down the left flank so the ML can take advantage of a slow DR, but as a specific instruction passing instruction for one player, I doubt it. It is far too limiting.

Using a combination of 'focus passing down left' plus 'DR = long passes' and making Nani a TM with 'run onto balls' might get Neville looking for these balls when the opportunity arises.

I don't think its that too specific? It would just be case of a check box and selecting "look to feed" "Nani" for a specific player. This way you could keep all of the other stuff and it surely would not be too hard to implement on the match engine.

There's potential for total chaos once you go down the multiple check box route. The ME would have to consider every possible formulation of check box usage, which would in all likelihood lead to an increase in flaws. Hence the removal of the arrows. They simply offered so many different ways in which a manager could play his formation that one would always 'break' the ME. Individualised check boxes would do the same thing.

There's potential for total chaos once you go down the multiple check box route. The ME would have to consider every possible formulation of check box usage, which would in all likelihood lead to an increase in flaws. Hence the removal of the arrows. They simply offered so many different ways in which a manager could play his formation that one would always 'break' the ME. Individualised check boxes would do the same thing.

Well look, I can't comment on actually making the match engine, obviously, but I think the principle of the idea is not such a bad thing. If you can instruct a player to look for a target man, how is this so different? Its just an idea about giving more variety to exploiting the opposition.

I would just like a few extra options. More control over set pieces is a big one, a little more control over positioning and I would like to speak to players about mistakes they are making. eg. My centreback currently gets a yellow card everygame by pushing his man in the back during a goalkick and I would like to tell him to stop

I've said before. Tactics changes ARE yet to be announced so this might be irrelevent and I look forward to those. I'm sure they will be great. As is at the moment, what I have put above with "passing menatility" and "running mentalily" might be a good idea. So as to provide clarity between the two. Something else I have always wanted is the ability to tell a specific player to pass to, as much as possible, to another specfiic player.

If I'm Man U and think that Neville is good at long balls, I want to instruct him to use this ability and look to hit diagnal long passes to Nani, who is player on the left wing, as much as possible. I think Nani is quick and that also the opposing right back is slow and positionally poor and want to exploit this. The position that Neville will generally find himself in throughout the game is perfect to exploit this. I don't neccercirely want all my team to look for this pass as some of them are not not so good at picking a pass and I would rather they kept it simple. I could set Nani as a playmaker but then some of my less skilled players will look to find him and fail. Also the position they find themselves in, when occupying possesion, is not as surprising as Neville's. I could set him as target man and set long balls to the team, however I don't want my team to play long balls. I want them to play short patient passing but I want to mix it up at times and Neville to especially.

I am aware of the options currently avaliable on the game but really I don't see how this is achievable. Also this is something that is used in real life. You may say, surely you want all your team to exploit this and generally, yes. But the position of the pass and from which sector of the pitch can cause even more surprise and effectiveness. Ok I'm done . Please think about this.

Anymore feedback on this. I'm convinced that,to a certain degree this happens in real football, maybe I'm wrong?

I'd like more specific tactics (Not gonna happen this time around though). I would like to tell a player to do this on one part of the pitch, and do that on another part of the pitch. Maybe a few more notches on the technical sliders like "Trough balls" and "Long shots" etc... I'd also like that using a target man doesn't mean that the defense just hurls the ball forward, for the opp. to intercept. And lots more really. Yada yada, not in a typing mood

Without side arrows, it'd be nice to have some sort of player specific width option.

After all, there's a huge difference between a FC and a FCL->FCR... while in reality it's just a striker told to roam a bit more. a FL->FR would be a striker told to roam all across the back line. To lose that option would mean losing something.

Maybe if they get the match engine right then I'll definitely want more tactics options but if 09 is anything like 08 then I'll be spending all my time tweaking tactics to overcome flaws with the match engine.

A better match engine = the need for complex tactical instructions

I really like the amount of tactical options. Once you have played CM2008 you will know how great the tactical section of the game, yes it is hard, but i like hard. I like having to go through "trial and error" to get my tactics working. I'd love more options but at the moment Id rather things that are DESPERATELY in need of fixing (confidence, Regens, transfers) than tactics. Tactics set the game apart from ALL others already and now they have took the arrows away to a certain extent the tactics will be great and make the football on show really realistic!

Anymore feedback on this. I'm convinced that,to a certain degree this happens in real football, maybe I'm wrong?

That's a pretty good idea, I can see where you're comin from mate. Because, if you're Liverpool you would want Gerrard and Alonso to spray long passes around AND do intricate through balls, but not necessarily the centre backs.

fifa manager has more complex, well at least more customizable, tactics options but since there are so many options its hard to figure out if your winning from good tactics or taking advantage of the flawed match engine. At least with FM08 we could all agree on what the match engine problems were, how to avoid taking advantage of those flaws etc.

I'm in total agreement that more tactical options would be a great thing, I love tinkering with things like that, but until the match engine is relatively realistic then I just think making the tactics too complex would make it harder to identify match engine problems and harder to fix them without breaking something else.

A better match engine = the need for complex tactical instructions

Not really.

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In fact, not at all:

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Better AI, simpler code, more realism, more fun. Do it.

I've always said that standard tactic formations should include tactics such as: -

Allardyce 433, 451

Wenger 442

Ferguson 4411, 451

Mourinho 433

Then players get to know exactly how their team is set up to play (including set pieces, offensive and defensive).

To me, Its not really a problem how complicated the tactics may be or whether its takes a while to get them right. As long as they all work. Difficult is fine, Annoyingly impossible is not so good. It would be a shame to compromise detail or depth for something more user friendly.

Tactics!! No one seems to want more?????

I actually want less. I think it is too complicated and takes away fun of the game.

I actually want less. I think it is too complicated and takes away fun of the game.

FM's aim is not to be"fun". Well, the fun comes from winning. But if there are few options you won't feel like you have achieved much that will take away the fun as fm'ers on this forum experience. If you want a laid back fun there are other manager games that offer it!

FM's aim is not to be"fun". Well, the fun comes from winning. But if there are few options you won't feel like you have achieved much that will take away the fun as fm'ers on this forum experience. If you want a laid back fun there are other manager games that offer it!

Ehm, its a game. If it's not aiming to be fun, then there's something seriously wrong.

I would like to see more variety in the AI tactics. Most teams in england play 442 thats fair enough. But not many put 4 upfront in the 70th minute if they are losing. In fm08 99% of teams switch to 424 forcing you to park the bus in front of the goal.

Why dont they have different approaches for different managers? Maybe put their big Centre back up there and play lots of long balls for him to compete in the air. Shoot on sight from the edge of the box. double up on the fullbacks and try to get more crosses into the box to name just a few other options. It starts to get dull the longer the game goes on and feels like every team you play against is managed by the same manger.

The game should be both fun and in depth. Most people would find many football management options fun, since it is a football manager game. The other thing is, at the moment, the tactics arn't compliacted, they are pretty self explanatary. The debate is that they maybe don't always work so well, still leave a little to be desired or should be condensed and made more user friendly. I'm sure they've changed the whole "feel" this time around.

If I'm Man U and think that Neville is good at long balls, I want to instruct him to use this ability and look to hit diagnal long passes to Nani, who is player on the left wing, as much as possible. I think Nani is quick and that also the opposing right back is slow and positionally poor and want to exploit this. The position that Neville will generally find himself in throughout the game is perfect to exploit this. I don't neccercirely want all my team to look for this pass as some of them are not not so good at picking a pass and I would rather they kept it simple. I could set Nani as a playmaker but then some of my less skilled players will look to find him and fail. Also the position they find themselves in, when occupying possesion, is not as surprising as Neville's. I could set him as target man and set long balls to the team, however I don't want my team to play long balls. I want them to play short patient passing but I want to mix it up at times and Neville to especially.

I am aware of the options currently avaliable on the game but really I don't see how this is achievable. Also this is something that is used in real life. You may say, surely you want all your team to exploit this and generally, yes. But the position of the pass and from which sector of the pitch can cause even more surprise and effectiveness. Ok I'm done . Please think about this.

I'm determined to drive this idea. Its one tactic that has been missing and it IS a basic thing. You're not telling me that Wenger would not say to Fabregas 'I want your first thought to be to look for Walcott' With Cesc's passing and Walcotts pace getting in behind fall backs. Opinions?

No, a decent manager would let Fabregas have plenty of creative freedom so as to make use of his flair. To tell such a player what to think is insulting and would stifle his abilities.

No, a decent manager would let Fabregas have plenty of creative freedom so as to make use of his flair. To tell such a player what to think is insulting and would stifle his abilities.

Whether my point is right or wrong, you can't say given a tactical instruction to a player is insulting. Sure Fabregas has great intelliegence and ability so you would be confident in letting him make decisions but if you are playing a real tough match where tactics might be the difference, asking a player to try and do something as much as he can is fair enough. I stress as much as he can, obviously you would not expect him to do this every time he has the ball.

You can appropriate such instructions anyway. If you want Fabregas looking for Walcott and he's on the right, then pass focus down the right flank. Players will then increasingly look for passing options to that wing. If you play Walcott up front, make him the Target Man with 'Run onto Ball' as the supply option. If you want it to be Fabregas who is mainly doing this, make him the Playmaker and have defensive players on short passing, so they feed him and then he feeds Walcott.

These may not be obvious and intuitive methods, but that is another argument entirely.

You can appropriate such instructions anyway. If you want Fabregas looking for Walcott and he's on the right, then pass focus down the right flank. Players will then increasingly look for passing options to that wing. If you play Walcott up front, make him the Target Man with 'Run onto Ball' as the supply option. If you want it to be Fabregas who is mainly doing this, make him the Playmaker and have defensive players on short passing, so they feed him and then he feeds Walcott.

These may not be obvious and intuitive methods, but that is another argument entirely.

I've been through this before. Yes you can do what you have said but then you are generally instructing your whole team to pass down the right. I particularly want Fabregas to look for this pass because, and this is the crucial bit, because of the poistion he finds himself in when he has the ball. That way theo knows whenever Cesc gets the ball, make a run. Thats the difference between instructing your whole team and a specific player, the position from which he can play the pass. Its only a matter of adding a 'look to feed option' individualy.

Again, you can do that by restricting pass length for players on the left, stopping the DR playing direct TBs and having Walcott make runs. That would increase the number of balls to Fabregas who will then look for Walcott providing his passing length is high enough for the pass to be on and you employ some kind of team instruction highlighting where Walcott is going to be, which is your 'look to feed option'.

I feel the tickbox you are asking for will cause more problems than it solves, as multiple strange usage is likely to unbalance the ME and cause excessive user frustration if their preferred settings fail. With the current options, ambigious and non-intuitive as they may be, the engine is less likely to be exploited and thus the overall level of football will be more realistic.

So basically something that, in real life, you could just say to Cesc "try to look for Theo first" while still instructing basic team tactics, is not achievable because of the chaos it would cause to the way the match engine plays. I gotta say I understand the current options, sliders and tick boxes but, considering how many decisions the AI has to make, maybe they are a bit messey and contradictary to one-another.

You have to appropriate that instruction with slider combinations. I realise it is not ideal and that a simple check box would be better. However, adding that option for all players will require a totally new set of ME calculations and likely, certainly in the short-term, lead to engine exploitation through users finding passing combinations that the ME didn't expect and thus can't cope with.

just have to wait for the blog on tactics.