Fans' Expectations: how it should work

OK, so I was thinking about how being an FM manager compared to being an IRL manager. Obviously I haven't managed a football team IRL (though I ran my work's 11-a-side team, does that count? No? Ok then), so it's pure guess-work, but one of the main differences appears to be: fan pressure. IRL, football fans are opinionated, vocal and not afraid to let the manager know what they think. You also tend to find that different clubs' fans have different sort of expectations. There are two main things you can take from football matches: the result, and the performance. Some clubs prioritise one over the other.

For example, West Ham and Newcastle want, I think it's fair to say, to be entertained by attacking football above anything else. They'd rather lose 4-3 than win 1-0 thanks to a scrappy goal off someone's arse (though perhaps that's not true anymore in Newcastle's case!). That's why Big Sam was so unpopular at Newcastle, before he'd even started losing games. He had a reputation for pragmatic football, and Newcastle fans craved attacking football.

Conversely, fans of, say, Chelsea don't care when other people say their team doesn't play attacking or entertaining football: the results and trophies matter more for them.

Some teams, like Barcelona, Real Madrid, Man United to a degree, and Brazil have fans that demand winning in style. Results AND entertainment are important in equal measure.

For many lower-league clubs, results are more important, but some still expect to be entertained.

So, how does this fit into FM? Well, if I like to keep my defences tight (George Graham?) and win at all costs, perhaps West Ham fans would be annoyed - even if I finished in a respectable mid-table place (Alan Curbishley). Perhaps if I entertained them all season but finished 12th they'd be happier.

So, I'd like to see more pressure from the fans. If I'm not delivering what they want, I'd want to be bombarded with news items voicing the fan's disgust. This shouldn't just be cosmetic either. If the fans start turning on the board, they'd consider whether they should just get rid of me to shut the fans up.

It would be needed to be implemented well, because if it wasn't it could really ruin the fun of FM. But what do others think?

well put, and a good idea

however, the "style of play" thing would be hard to put in the game, despite different tactics providing a different type of football, it would be hard for the game to read that imo, as you'd have to go by the match stats as well as the game itself, which is just an output of the match engine. i think it's definitely an idea for the future though

well put, and a good idea

however, the "style of play" thing would be hard to put in the game, despite different tactics providing a different type of football, it would be hard for the game to read that imo, as you'd have to go by the match stats as well as the game itself, which is just an output of the match engine. i think it's definitely an idea for the future though

I agree, it would be difficult to implement. I think the game would have to look at a few things: the type of passing, the tempo, chances created, pace in the side, type of players used, and of course goals scored.

The basis of this is already in the game. Each club has certain tactical styles that it's used to and as you say for example, it will be slightly easier managing Newcastle if you try to play attacking football rather than a direct style for instance.

However, the current impact is way too low and it's ultimately pointless having it in the game at the moment. In my opinion, fan pressure needs to be immensely increased so we'd get more involved in the game and it'd make it far more realistic. I believe SI have been trying to implement this recently and by including the new confidence screen last year they've made a start to this but there were far too many bugs in last years version. Hopefully the new game will be better produced so this works properly and we get a real feeling of having a connection with the fans, whether they love us, hate us or haven't made their minds up yet.

Not an important addition imo... I think the confidence needs to be sorted in relation to results before style comes into it. I'd like to see fans happy despite a defeat - for example, currently if you manage a lower league side and lose to Man Utd in the cup they will be unhappy, but IRL if my team (Swindon) went to Old Trafford and put in a battling performance and only lost by the odd goal I'd be chuffed!

I'd also like to see fans unhappy at not giving a team a spanking that they deserved!

Not an important addition imo... I think the confidence needs to be sorted in relation to results before style comes into it. I'd like to see fans happy despite a defeat - for example, currently if you manage a lower league side and lose to Man Utd in the cup they will be unhappy, but IRL if my team (Swindon) went to Old Trafford and put in a battling performance and only lost by the odd goal I'd be chuffed!

I'd also like to see fans unhappy at not giving a team a spanking that they deserved!

What patch are you playing mate because this is all in the game. Fans will say in the confidence section things like "they were pleased with the performance against a far better team" and "The fans were disappointed the team couldn't win by more goals"

Not an important addition imo... I think the confidence needs to be sorted in relation to results before style comes into it. I'd like to see fans happy despite a defeat - for example, currently if you manage a lower league side and lose to Man Utd in the cup they will be unhappy, but IRL if my team (Swindon) went to Old Trafford and put in a battling performance and only lost by the odd goal I'd be chuffed!

I'd also like to see fans unhappy at not giving a team a spanking that they deserved!

this fits under the development of confidence imo, as the boards are more likely to look at results, whereas fans are more likely to care about the way that the team play. i think the solution is to split confidence in two, as keeping the fans happy and the board happy are two different things (kevin keegan, for instance)

It's a direction i would like to see the game go - style appears to be becoming a more important part of a managers job and hopefully FM will start to reflect this.

Good idea, maybe one for the future as it would probably take a while to implement.

it would probably take a while to implement.

Not so sure - there's already the "pleased with the amount of chances created" line of text in board confidence - so as it stands the game can, to an extent, determine if the user has been attacking a lot - all we want is for this to be taken one step further.

I would like to see more club individuality than currently exists. Crewe are perhaps the best example for me - in real life they have always had a policy of bring players in from their youth system and then selling them on - their youth academy costs a lot of money each year so they need to do this as well as it being part of the philosophy there now, but in game I see no difference at Crewe to any other club. They just sign loads of players and go on from there most of the time.

I would like to see more club individuality than currently exists. Crewe are perhaps the best example for me - in real life they have always had a policy of bring players in from their youth system and then selling them on - their youth academy costs a lot of money each year so they need to do this as well as it being part of the philosophy there now, but in game I see no difference at Crewe to any other club. They just sign loads of players and go on from there most of the time.

Yeah, a sort of manager's philosophy stat. Maybe one that is replicated by the board as well? So Arsene Wenger and Whatshisface at Crewe (not Dario Gradi, the other one) have a policy of bringing through young players. Chelsea go out and buy players, etc.

Yeah, but at Crewe it needs to be more a club thing than the manager because they have invested a lot of money in their youth system and they have to bring players through to sell or else they will lose a huge amount of money. At a Premiership club it can be more of a manager or chairman whim with all the money sloshing around and quite a few players who come through at Premiership youth systems end up leaving for clubs in the lower leagues rather than making the first team and being of financial benefit.

I'm in favour of this as well - I tend to play a very defensive style, scrounging for 1-0 wins and 0-0 draws .. and I'd like to see the fans of some teams annoyed by that!

In my imagination, this displeasure would result in negative media articles when we go on a patch of poor performance, and that might lead to a shorter leash by the board when considering sacking me.

The key component of that, though, is that success ought to justify just about any approach. I wouldn't want to be sacked while top of the table because I wasn't playing "attacking enough".

The second component is separation of "Fans" and "Board" for this purpose. I'd almost like to split Confidence into two sections - Board Happiness and Fan Happiness. "Relationship with the fans" would be a line in the Board Happiness - but just one component. Most components, such as transfer policy, results, etc, would be reflected in both areas.

I think that gives space for a couple of interesting scenarios:

- A board that demands financial success, fans demanding success on the pitch

- A board that dislikes a manager, but fans who love him

- A board perfectly content with a manager who is despised by the fans

The key component of that, though, is that success ought to justify just about any approach. I wouldn't want to be sacked while top of the table because I wasn't playing "attacking enough".

Thats the key thing here for me. Success has to outweigh the fans displeasure on this one.

If we were going to build it out a little further, it should have relationships all three ways:

Fans' opinion of the Manager

Fans' opinion of the Board

Board's opinion of the Manager

That could give us the Newcastle situation, where the fans would rather keep Keegan and sack the board..

It might also give us leverage to use in the "Ultimatum" conversations - or maybe an alternative route, e.g., using the media to sway fan opinion towards something, probably worsening our relationship with the board but possibly enlisting fan pressure that maneuvers the board into giving us what we want. (E.g., more transfer budget, new stadium, etc.)

It could also make interviews around the manager's job being in danger, and around his firing, much more interesting. Depending how the manager spun it, he might improve or hurt his reputation among the fans of the club, with the board, and his overall reputation for "professionalism".

If the sacking went in a "Its the manager's fault" way, that might hurt his reputation .. if it went in a "Its the board's fault" direction, it might not .. and if it descended into petty squabbling between board and manager, with finger-pointing in both directions, it should hurt the reputation of both, possibly making it much harder for the manager to get a top job later!

Its a fertile field for the imagination, but of course coding it all is a bit harder.

I like the thinking there Amaroq. For example, if your team aren't performing well, you could be asked by the media why you're not doing well. You could have a list of options such as "the players need time to gel", "the players need time to get used to my tactics", "the players need to pull their fingers out and start playing", "the board haven't given me the money I need to get quality in", etc.

Now, choose the last option, and you may get a sympathetic reaction from the fans, but expect the board to be mighty cheesed off. Choose the second option, and expect the fans to get a little concerned about the appropriateness of your tactics, and so on.

IMO the two main areas of the game that need to be improved are :

1)The confidence section

2)The quality of grey teams in the game.

fan's attitude may have more impact on the game, i agree. but this should be "alive"...

it should change along with club's reputation as well as the manager's and even the board's.

post# 16 puts it very well thought, when the board sells a player without the manager's decision fans must have distinct opinions upon the matter. they should not be mad at us, they should be mad at the board, even support our decision (it would also be great if media asks questions about those kind of sales done by the board, we should be able to comment on such cases).

seems a fair idea considering in reality, Capello has managed to get the sack for playing winning pragmatic football at Real. However, this has to be done properly so that its effect does not end up ruining the game. While yes, I agree the fans are quick to jump on your back if you fail to string together a couple of decent wins (eg Big Sam), we must also remember that pragmatic winning football can actually win the fans over if you do actually win (I know Real fans were sorry to see capello go, it was just the dickhead of a chairman and Brazil did rejoice after winning the world cup for the first time in 24 years in 1994 thru winning pragmatic means).

Would be good as long as it's done correctly, Norwich fans love to see passing football rather than long ball and unfortunately we haven't seen much of it for a few seasons which has led to much moaning etc..

Really like this! Different teams have different expectations and this should be implemented so you don't just walk into a job, win/lose and then get the same response every where you go.

Gillmans - I agree with everything you say about fans preferring a certain style of play and it would give clubs more "character".

As for this:

If we were going to build it out a little further, it should have relationships all three ways:

Fans' opinion of the Manager

Fans' opinion of the Board

Board's opinion of the Manager

That could give us the Newcastle situation, where the fans would rather keep Keegan and sack the board..

It might also give us leverage to use in the "Ultimatum" conversations - or maybe an alternative route, e.g., using the media to sway fan opinion towards something, probably worsening our relationship with the board but possibly enlisting fan pressure that maneuvers the board into giving us what we want. (E.g., more transfer budget, new stadium, etc.)

It could also make interviews around the manager's job being in danger, and around his firing, much more interesting. Depending how the manager spun it, he might improve or hurt his reputation among the fans of the club, with the board, and his overall reputation for "professionalism".

If the sacking went in a "Its the manager's fault" way, that might hurt his reputation .. if it went in a "Its the board's fault" direction, it might not .. and if it descended into petty squabbling between board and manager, with finger-pointing in both directions, it should hurt the reputation of both, possibly making it much harder for the manager to get a top job later!

Its a fertile field for the imagination, but of course coding it all is a bit harder.

Spot on!

I don't think you could just label the types of fans of each team like that. Its not a very fair way of doing it, especially if you look at teams that are not in the Premier league. Also the situation the club is in will change what the fans want, for example Newcastle love attacking football but I bet they would love a 1-0 result right now. And I would think that many fans in the Championship would much rather see their team in the Premier League rather than playing flair football against Championship level teams. It would also be unfair to assume that Newcastle fans don't want trophies or that Chelsea fans don't care whether the team plays beautifully or not. These things also change over time, I doubt that 10 or 20 years ago the fans wanted the same things as they do today. A good example is Manchester City now, the fans are expecting flair football, which I am pretty sure they did not even a year or 2 years ago. Another problem is the degree to which each fanbase wants these things. Another example is Arsenal, fans are continuously torn between their love for flair football and the desire for trophies.

What I want to point out with this is that 1, the data for the system is impossible to objectively measure and would be based entirely on stereotypes. 2, the problem of fluidity, you cannot expect desires of fans to be static for years and years. As interesting as the concept is, we must accept that it is impossible to implement, at least for now.