please insert disc - cont.

"Glyn

Moderator

Location: My liver is eating itself

Join Date: 24th February 2000

Posts: 32,237 Re: Please insert disc!!!

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Quote:

Originally Posted by Wakers

It's only pirating if you don't own an official copy.

Yes it is. Any copying of copyrighted material without the permission of the copyright holder is piracy.

Besides, you don't actually 'own' a copy of the game when you have the official CD, only a licence to use the software contained on that disc, not free rein to make use of any other copy. "

"Can I backup my computer software?

Yes, under certain conditions as provided by section 117 of the Copyright Act. Although the precise term used under section 117 is “archival” copy, not “backup” copy, these terms today are used interchangeably. This privilege extends only to computer programs and not to other types of works."

US Copyright Office

US Copyright Office. We had this dicussion in 'FM2009 DRM', so you should probably read that thread

Ye I understood that...

What exactly do you hope to acheive with this thread?

There's already a thread (search for "FM09 DRM") where this has been debated so if you really must debate it, do so in their please.

Countdown to thread getting closed;

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obviously i didn't know there was a thread called fm09 drm, but since you MUST point it out again, after Neji did...i guess i should look it up

obviously i didn't know there was a thread called fm09 drm, but since you MUST point it out again, after Neji did...i guess i should look it up

unfortunately that happens as Neji's msg was posted while i was typing

would you kindly include the link as i can't find fm09 drm anywhere

having read through the topic, i see nothing that would challenge the above comment by the US copyright Office..thanks for the links anyway

So even if we buy the disc we dont actually "own" it?

So even if we buy the disc we dont actually "own" it?

Yes, you physically own the CD and have a license to run one copy of the software

not according to Glyn

not according to Glyn

I didn't say you own the data on the disc, just the physical medium, so I'm actually agreeing with Glyn...

if you can legally make a copy of it for backup purposes, i'm guessing you own more than just the piece of plastic

"you physically own the CD" ???

Yes. The medium itself, not the data... the files and folders are copyrighted by SI. They grant you a license to play the game.

what is a 'physical medium'?

A storage device. Examples are CDs, hard-drives, USB drives...

You own the bit of plastic that was made into a CD. You do not own the software on the CD as technically you've only bought a license to install the software. So therefore you're not permitted to make copies of the software that is on that CD.

On top of that, in order to get a copied version of the software to work you must circumnavigate security measures and therefore alter the FM.exe. This is also illegal. So however you want to look at it it's illegal to make any copies, even if you do try to claim them as 'backups'.

You own the bit of plastic that was made into a CD. You do not own the software on the CD as technically you've only bought a license to install the software. So therefore you're not permitted to make copies of the software that is on that CD.

On top of that, in order to get a copied version of the software to work you must circumnavigate security measures and therefore alter the FM.exe. This is also illegal. So however you want to look at it it's illegal to make any copies, even if you do try to claim them as 'backups'.

so you are saying the US Copyright Office is wrong? at the end of the day it may or may not work but you can still make a back up copy of software regardless of the outcome

Yes. The medium itself, not the data... the files and folders are copyrighted by SI. They grant you a license to play the game.

A storage device. Examples are CDs, hard-drives, USB drives...

thanks...i eventually worked out what you were saying. thanks anyway

having read through the topic, i see nothing that would challenge the above comment by the US copyright Office..thanks for the links anyway

The majority of posters on here arn't from the US though.

The majority of posters on here arn't from the US though.

i agree but the game will be released there as well.

so you are saying the US Copyright Office is wrong?

I wouldn't know as in the bit you quoted it clearly says 'under certain conditions' but we don't know what those conditions are. As I said, in the case of FM getting a working copy of the game requires you to circumnavigate security measures. So whatever it means by 'under certain conditions' I doubt there's ever a siuation where you're legally allowed to do that. If it was simply copying data off a CD to a blank CD and changing nothing then there might be a case. But as it is it will be illegal.

for UK readers

"Computer games users enjoy a special privilege under the existing copyright law. According to Section 50(A) of the 1988 Copyright, Designs and Patents Act, legal purchasers of computer games are explicitly permitted to make a backup copy of their purchase. (Interestingly, the rule specifically applies to computer games."

I wouldn't know as in the bit you quoted it clearly says 'under certain conditions' but we don't know what those conditions are. As I said, in the case of FM getting a working copy of the game requires you to circumnavigate security measures. So whatever it means by 'under certain conditions' I doubt there's ever a siuation where you're legally allowed to do that. If it was simply copying data off a CD to a blank CD and changing nothing then there might be a case. But as it is it will be illegal.

re above...no conditions, clearly states you are able create back up copies

for UK readers

"Computer games users enjoy a special privilege under the existing copyright law. According to Section 50(A) of the 1988 Copyright, Designs and Patents Act, legal purchasers of computer games are explicitly permitted to make a backup copy of their purchase. (Interestingly, the rule specifically applies to computer games."

If you make a 'backup copy' of FM it won't work. You need to crack the .exe for it to work so it's completely different. Yes, you can have a disc with all the data from the FM disc transferred to it, but you cannot alter the data on that backup to allow it to work. I imagine it'll be the same with most games.

for UK readers

"Computer games users enjoy a special privilege under the existing copyright law. According to Section 50(A) of the 1988 Copyright, Designs and Patents Act, legal purchasers of computer games are explicitly permitted to make a backup copy of their purchase. (Interestingly, the rule specifically applies to computer games."

The problem is that to make it work, you need to circumvent the DRM which is the illegal part.

This was all stated in the DRM thread.

If you make a 'backup copy' of FM it won't work. You need to crack the .exe for it to work so it's completely different. Yes, you can have a disc with all the data from the FM disc transferred to it, but you cannot alter the data on that backup to allow it to work. I imagine it'll be the same with most games.

you said "But as it is it will be illegal."

clearly its not...if it works or not it doesnt make any difference at all. not even discussed in the UK copyright law.

if you start playing around with cd cracks etc, its a difference story but this is not what we have been talking about. this topic was clearly about making legal back up copies

The problem is that to make it work, you need to circumvent the DRM which is the illegal part.

This was all stated in the DRM thread.

i never said a word about making it work, i said making copies is legal. now you guys are jumping at 'circumventing the drm'

since we are talking about 'making it work'

the copyright law is obviously not FM specific....i have made legal backup copies of other softwares that actually work without having to create any shifty patches etc. anyway, i wouldn't even know how to do that.

i never said a word about making it work, i said making copies is legal. now you guys are jumping at 'circumventing the drm'

So what is your point then? (meant sincerely i assure you despite how it may sound)

Can you, by US copyright law, make a duplicate of the CD?

AFAIK yes

Can you legally make this backup work?

No

Can you upload/download a version of this game that has been tampered with?

No

Correct me if i'm missing something, but is this all that's being debated?

If you haven't got your original disc you clearly aren't backing it up are you?

i never said a word about making it work, i said making copies is legal. now you guys are jumping at 'circumventing the drm'

Ok, it's natural that we would go there though because a backup won't work. So there wouldn't be a huge point in making one.

The problem is that to make it work, you need to circumvent the DRM which is the illegal part.

This was all stated in the DRM thread.

I noticed that in that thread. Didn't say anything at the time because as you rightly said most people here do not live in the US. However an interesting tidbit. A particular program that can circumnavigate and remove DRM on some software and all music/video files, has been declared legal by the US Supreme courts. Quite a feat I think you'll agree. I think the whole world is getting sick of paying for licenses for things and then being restricted too much in what they are allowed to do with it.

"Any copying of copyrighted material without the permission of the copyright holder is piracy." - Glyn

that was the only point i was debating until everyone else started throwing up things about bypassing drm etc. i never raised that or had any intention of discussing it. not my problem if people stray from the topic.

my point was the GLyn was incorrect.

If you haven't got your original disc you clearly aren't backing it up are you?

are you for real??? what are you talking about? read the above posts

Ok, it's natural that we would go there though because a backup won't work. So there wouldn't be a huge point in making one.

i agree, no point to that..but the point was that glyn's assumption was incorrect. why take this thread somewhere else by talking about something else?

You went through all this to show that Glyn was incorrect?

Sorry but, thats even more pointless than making a backup of FM with no intention to use it.

You went through all this to show that Glyn was incorrect?

Sorry but, thats even more pointless than making a backup of FM with no intention to use it.

Well, Glyn did lock the other thread and ban the user. At least someone's bothered to try and find some evidence for once.

You went through all this to show that Glyn was incorrect?

Sorry but, thats even more pointless than making a backup of FM with no intention to use it.

it wasn't. i hate it when people make blasé statements about things they don't have a full understanding of... and in the process, confusing a bunch of well intentioned people

Apologies if I am way off the mark, but when you install don't you have to agree to the user agreement thing, where you have to accept before you install, i'm sure there will be something on there saying you agree not to copy.

Well, Glyn did lock the other thread and ban the user. At least someone's bothered to try and find some evidence for once.

thanks...and i agree with Glyn on banning the other dude.

Well, Glyn did lock the other thread and ban the user. At least someone's bothered to try and find some evidence for once.

Well, he was using a pirated copy. I don't see the problem. The OP was using a pirated copy which is an automatic ban. Glyn was right to do so and right to close the thread IMO because it was going nowhere good. Like this thread really

Apologies if I am way off the mark, but when you install don't you have to agree to the user agreement thing, where you have to accept before you install, i'm sure there will be something on there saying you agree not to copy.

not according to UK & US copyright laws

Well, he was using a pirated copy. I don't see the problem. The OP was using a pirated copy which is an automatic ban. Glyn was right to do so and right to close the thread IMO because it was going nowhere good. Like this thread really

You and me usually sing from the same hymn sheet, Neji. And I totally see what you're saying. I guess it's just that, if this guy's right, you can make the case that technically the guy doing the downloading was within the law. But I dunno. I'm coming across as way more interested in this thread than I really am in all honesty.

it wasn't. i hate it when people make blasé statements about things they don't have a full understanding of... and in the process, confusing a bunch of well intentioned people

You'd be better reporting his post or Pm'ing him with your problem, tbh.

Well, he was using a pirated copy. I don't see the problem. The OP was using a pirated copy which is an automatic ban. Glyn was right to do so and right to close the thread IMO because it was going nowhere good. Like this thread really

sure, why not....if you are happy to live in the world of ignorance and 'accept' that its illegal to make backup copies

What exactly are you trying to copy anyway?

if this guy's right, you can make the case that technically the guy doing the downloading was within the law.

No, the guy in the other post didn't own an original (I don't think) and so downloading it is illegal in the first place. Add to the fact that he was using the illegal copy to play - then Gyln was totally right.

IMO there is no arguement *shrugs*

sure, why not....if you are happy to live in the world of ignorance and 'accept' that its illegal to make backup copies

I didn't say it was illegal to make back ups, did I?

You and me usually sing from the same hymn sheet, Neji. And I totally see what you're saying. I guess it's just that, if this guy's right, you can make the case that technically the guy doing the downloading was within the law. But I dunno. I'm coming across as way more interested in this thread than I really am in all honesty.

do you guys only read every second word of each post? how could you make a case for that guy that he was downloading the game within the law?

its only legal when you make a backup copy of the original disk.